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#sugar-meeting, 2010-10-26

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Time Nick Message
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14:00 walterbender any marketers around?
14:12 rralcala <rralcala!~rralcala@mail.paraguayeduca.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:23 garycmartin walterbender: depends what the question is ;-)
14:30 walterbender garycmartin: hi.
14:30 garycmartin walterbender: Hi.
14:30 walterbender I have a new marketing effort underway I wanted to share
14:30 and get some feedback
14:31 I though this was the regular time for the Marketing Meeting...
14:31 garycmartin Not happened for a long time as far as I'm aware :(
14:32 We carelessly lost/drove off Sean
14:34 christophd <christophd!~christoph@chello084112014205.3.11.tuwien.teleweb.at> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:39 walterbender I am working with a group putting together a youth cycling team that wants to promote Sugar...
14:39 We'll need to work with them n designing a cool shirt!!!
14:40 I meet them in NYC next week. They are quite serious and could be quite interesting
14:40 (I am a bit of a bike nut... so my enthusiasm is probably in need of calibration)
14:45 garycmartin walterbender: trying to recover from all your recent air miles ;-)
14:47 I have a random image of a bike where the wheels are made from two circles of activities, perhaps other parts of the bike shape could be icons as well. A montage of Sugar icon artwork making up the bike shape.
14:48 random image in my mind
14:49 walterbender: any thought for what you're after?
14:51 walterbender whatever we do, lots of color...
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14:58 garycmartin walterbender: Is some specific wording important for SL branding and the cycling team? That could eat most of the space up so should perhaps decide that first before thinking visuals.
14:59 walterbender garycmartin: no se
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15:10 walterbender any SLOBS around?
15:10 we need to establish our quorum
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15:17 bernie arrives
15:17 walterbender: present
15:18 walterbender hi bernie
15:18 bernie cjb, CanoeBerry, mchua_afk: ping?
15:18 walterbender: maybe call you while we're waiting?
15:19 cjb waves distractedly from Taipei
15:19 walterbender one more and we have quorum...
15:19 otherwise we can just have an informal discussion
15:20 CanoeBerry ? mchua_afk ?
15:20 thinks getting a quorum will be easier after the election
15:24 CanoeBerry Hi!
15:24 walterbender A quorum!!!
15:24 #start-meeting
15:24 meeting Meeting started Tue Oct 26 15:24:49 2010 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:24 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:24 walterbender Welcome everyone.
15:25 CanoeBerry I'm away for the 1st half of Haiti fyi!
15:25 I'm away for the 1st half of (November, in) Haiti fyi!
15:25 Offline..
15:26 walterbender #topic state of Sugar Labs
15:27 As you all know, Tomeu's departure has let to lots of introspection and 'blunt' emails :)
15:28 I am in the middle of writing a Sugar Digest blog about all of this... I was hoping to finish before this meeting and use it as a strawman for the discussion
15:29 I was responding to Yioryos's post, where he outlined the need for clarity around 4 topics
15:29 * Clearly defined aims
15:29 * Clearly defined road map
15:29 * Clearly defined tools/methods of implementation
15:29 * Clearly defined, tangible, milestones and annual _external_ evaluation
15:30 What do others think of this as a way to frame the discussion?
15:32 cjb I think they bring up the debate about whether we're a company with goals and milestones and schedules, or a group of volunteers that can only be gently directed towards doing anything in particular
15:34 lucian <lucian!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:35 walterbender cjb: I think there is a middle ground...
15:35 cjb: every project needs goals
15:35 and every individual will have their personal goals
15:36 cjb: but without a clear set of overall objectives, it makes it harder to contribute IMHO
15:36 cjb yep
15:37 bernie reads backlog
15:37 walterbender I may be mistaken, but I don't think there is so much controversy over our overall goals
15:38 but in terms of tools/methods of implementation, we touch on hot buttons
15:40 re road maps, personally, I think we have a good release process
15:40 but we lack an architectural document
15:42 I am less certain about the evaluation situation
15:43 Well, this approach is obviously not getting much reaction...
15:43 [scs] walterbender: hi Walter, and all
15:43 walterbender hi [scs]
15:43 bernie [scs]: hello!
15:44 cjb walterbender: we seem to generally be in bad shape with SLOBs; we're not (other than you) doing or writing much
15:44 [scs] walterbender: I would like to ask what would be evaluated? the development process, or the impact of Sugar on learning?
15:44 cjb (I'm not sure why.)
15:45 [scs] walterbender: here in PY we are beginning efforts to conduct a pedagogical evaluation for a 3 year cohort
15:46 bernie [scs]: VERY interesting! do you think the results could be published (in our wiki or elsewhere?)
15:46 christophd [scs]: excellent news!
15:47 bernie christophd: hey dude!
15:47 christophd bernie: hola
15:47 satellit_ has quit IRC
15:47 walterbender [scs]: I had a long conversation with Pacita about the baseline interviews
15:47 [scs] bernie: I am not sure, we would have a baseline by March 2011, and results 3 years after that
15:48 walterbender: I think my question has to do more with what goals do teachers have in common with the development gurus at SugarLabs, and hence what would be evaluated in terms of overall impact
15:48 bernie walterbender: marcopg also made the same observation that last week, we totally lack a technical roadmap.
15:48 CanoeBerry MUCH discussion of evaluation in SF over the past 4 days, with various folks bringing actual data soon.
15:48 Mailing lists are insufficient to bring this discussion forward.
15:49 In person clearly far more effective ;)
15:49 christophd CanoeBerry: who in particular will be bringing forth that information? I mean, who really has the data?
15:49 walterbender we need to mesh the pedagogical observations with our technical roadmap
15:49 bernie [scs]: as you know, we have some sort of disconnection between educators and engineers in the Sugar (and OLPC) ecosystem
15:50 ProfSheinRIT has quit IRC
15:52 [scs] bernie: yes, we are trying to address that at the deployment level, many discussions with christophd too about this... :)
15:52 CanoeBerry christophd: i was not part of these talks sadly, as the mother hen is quite exhausted here inducing others to  have these many successful conversations, but i personally overheard at least 2 countries in Asia, and 2 deployments in Latin/Carib preparing various research.
15:53 tch hello amigos
15:53 bernie tch: hola!
15:53 [scs] tch: bounjour
15:54 christophd tch: hola
15:54 CanoeBerry: thx for the info
15:54 walterbender CanoeBerry: I don't know of any major or minor deployment that isn't conducting some sort of research...
15:54 christophd CanoeBerry: (and get some rest;)
15:55 walterbender but we should better leverage these efforts to get more data re Sugar itself if possible
15:55 in .py rgs and morgan have been doing some work along those lines
15:55 satellit__ <satellit__!~satellit@2002:d064:95e7:0:924c:e5ff:fe84:8dec> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:55 CanoeBerry Exactly.  The good news is these folks are getting organized, and much closer to communicate different observations after 3 yrs.
15:55 walterbender looks forward to reading up on what was discussed in SF
15:56 christophd also does
15:56 CanoeBerry Summary notes are all public here:
15:56 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC[…]edule_of_sessions
15:56 walterbender CanoeBerry: the bad news is that the 'instruments' we have provided in the past are too crude... morgan will have many holes in her data, alas
15:57 CanoeBerry The more folks clean these up in coming days, the merrier.
15:57 satellit_ <satellit_!~satellit@2002:d064:95e7:0:219:d1ff:fe73:14e6> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:57 walterbender but we are perhaps being too focused on details...
15:57 git vs trac vs email review of patches :)
15:58 garycmartin christophd: Did you see Pierre Varly's latest report at: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC[…]_OLPC_Evaluations ?
15:58 walterbender overall, how are we doing? is Sugar a house of cards or are we built on a more substantial foundation?
15:58 garycmartin christophd: "What for? What has been done, what could be done? (PDF), October 22nd 2010"
15:58 bernie walterbender: I think Sugar (the project) has done quite well this year.
15:59 cjb walterbender: you're setting a pretty low bar there :)
15:59 silbe <silbe!~silbe@2001:6f8:120a::2> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:59 christophd garycmartin: yeah, I did, couldn't make much sense of it though
15:59 bernie walterbender: I would dare saying that this year Sugar matured more than ever before.
15:59 silbe: hello
16:00 cjb I think that Sugar isn't a house of cards, but SLOBs isn't providing very effective leadership/facilitation, and we seem to have trouble attracting/retaining new contributors, which is why it's hurting so much when a developer who's been around for years decides to move on
16:00 silbe bernie: hi! :)
16:01 bernie walterbender: as for Sugar Labs, we seem to have some organizational problems and discontent.
16:01 CanoeBerry Yes: Release 10.1.2 and Dextrose give people HOPE this year like never before.. partic when Bernie is hopped up selling it ;)
16:02 bernie cjb: agreed, but I would separate the first part of your sentence from the second. I don't think that strong leadership and welcoming contributors need to go together.
16:03 cjb that sounds right
16:03 bernie cjb: sunday I spoke with 3 people of the Wikimedia foundation: they basically told me that they have 50 people and they do *nothing* to interfere with what the community does.
16:03 cjb I wasn't implying a direct causality
16:03 bernie cjb: their job is to make the infrastructure work and get out of the way.
16:03 cjb: they don't even participate (much) in the development of Mediawiki. they told me that it happens almost entirely outside the foundation.
16:04 cjb mediawiki is an extremely dysfunctional project
16:04 bernie cjb: so I think we could solve our organizational issues in the *opposite* way of what everybody suggests: by doing less.,
16:04 cjb almost no-one is working on it, in part because they don't have anyone at the foundation reviewing patches or providing technical leadership
16:04 bernie: talk to mako
16:04 walterbender bernie: I am not sure that Sugar Labs can be so remote from our codebase...
16:05 or our deployments
16:05 cjb even the wikimedia foundation would tell us not to copy anything from the mediawiki project, I'd bet
16:05 bernie cjb: I just did... he basically confirmed this and told me that if I wanted to know how Wikipedia works I should have asked the community
16:06 As for us, I feel that we could just state the obvious truth: that the Oversight Board isn't an executive organ and Sugar Labs isn't a company.
16:06 As Tomeu described it in the past, we simply provide a *place* where the community can get together to work on Sugar and related projects.
16:06 walterbender bernie: I think we provide more than just the place
16:06 CanoeBerry bernie+walterbender+cjv: if you really care about community-foundation relations (Wikipedia has NOT solved this!) you need to join our Wedn night reading group at Harvard/Berkman.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U[…]man_Reading_Group
16:07 bernie Now, if we need vision, perhaps Paraguay Educa, Activity Central, OLPC can provide theirs.
16:07 CanoeBerry bernie+walterbender+cjb: if you really care about community-foundation relations (Wikipedia has NOT solved this!) you need to join our Wedn night reading group at Harvard/Berkman.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U[…]man_Reading_Group
16:07 walterbender bernie: It is not clear to me that those visions can be so simply decoupled from Sugar Labs...
16:08 bernie: they can fork of course
16:09 bernie walterbender: would we be welcoming to entities with diverging visions?
16:09 walterbender but given my recent conversations with Paraguay Educa and OLPC, I don't think that is what they are considering... they want more rather than less synergy with Sugar Labs and the community.
16:09 bernie: diverging visions are a reality in every project...
16:09 bernie walterbender: I think we should... as long as the goals are not diametrically opposed to ours
16:10 walterbender bernie: but we provide a well from which these projects can drink
16:10 bernie walterbender: (we should be welcoming, that is)
16:10 christophd walterbender: out of curiosity - as you mention talks with OLPC - what is your role at OLPC these days?
16:10 [scs] chiming in again... what about maintaining the releases of Sugar? here in PY we have a majority of schools were we need a stable release with little or no bugs
16:10 walterbender bernie: I don't see us as unwelcoming to our deployments... but I am probably wrong in some cases, given the flaming we've been seeing...
16:11 [scs]: every deployment needs stability
16:11 [scs] only one or two schools are good grounds for new (buggy) releases, where students and teachers like those types of challenges
16:11 walterbender [scs]: and no one wants bugs
16:11 bernie [scs]: I think this is better done with projects such as Dextrose rather than the upstream releases.
16:11 walterbender [scs]: the question is how best to achieve those goals
16:12 bernie [scs]: analogously, users install Ubuntu and not the tarballs released by the Gnome Foundation.
16:12 walterbender bernie: I don't disagree... but Dextrose would not exist were it not also for the existence of the upstream project
16:12 bernie [scs]: Sugar is very much like Gnome imho... not useful by itself until a downstream project (company or deployment) does the necessary QA and integration steps.
16:13 walterbender so the question remains, how do we work together?
16:13 bernie walterbender: of course... and Dextrose found shelter within Sugar Labs too... alongside SoaS and USR
16:13 walterbender: well, USR is probably mostly in Launchpad, but I guess it would be welcome here too.
16:13 walterbender bernie: [scs] can correct me, but I didn't sense great angst about Sugar Labs when I was in .py last week.
16:14 cjb [scs]: you're aware that OLPC (via erikos) is maintaining a stable version of Sugar?
16:14 walterbender bernie: the conversations were all about how do we further our mutual goals of providing great tools for kids
16:14 and how can we learn from each other...
16:15 bernie: and how can SL help promote these goals in the region...
16:15 satellit_ don't forget opensuse-edu and trisquel and others....
16:15 walterbender bernie: I spent more time with politicians than engineers on my trip
16:15 satellit_ +1
16:16 CanoeBerry Family squabbles in indicate we have a family.
16:16 Then there is money..
16:16 What's our financial situation today?
16:17 cjb CanoeBerry: I gave up last time I tried to decipher it :/
16:17 CanoeBerry Hmm
16:18 walterbender CanoeBerry: with the exception of the Gould grant which is specifically targeted to SoaS trials, we have essentially $0.
16:18 (a little GSoC mentor travel money)
16:18 CanoeBerry: then again, we have never had any money
16:18 I just got yet another grant rejected... this one by USAID.
16:18 bernie walterbender: what would the people you spoke with expect from us?
16:19 walterbender the reviewers all loved it, or so they said, but they rejected it none the less.
16:19 bernie: expect or hope to get?
16:19 bernie walterbender: I mean, how can we help them promote our common goals in their area?
16:20 walterbender bernie: for example, Seba, Roberto, and I met with an important foundation in .py. We are preparing a proposal together.
16:20 bernie walterbender: we have the Local Labs thing, but some deployments have been shy about it because they ask what it implies to be a local lab and our answer is more or less: "you get few web services under COUNTRYCODE.sugarlabs.org"
16:20 dfarning I would ask that everyone talk a minute and reread this entire.  occasional someone raises a concern to which Walter responds, 'It ok because i had a conversation with...."
16:21 [scs] walterbender: the goal of maintenance seems to be of importance to Roberto, this I suppose is something we should address through OLPC then, as indicated by cjb?
16:22 walterbender [scs]: OLPC certainly has an important role to play regarding maintenance and they have been hiring of late, e.g., Erikos
16:22 [scs]: but .py has a role to play as well... and has been playing that role by having established a strong local team.
16:23 [scs]: IMHO, one role SL plays is to help ensure these various efforts are somewhat in synch, so that everyone benefits
16:24 CanoeBerry Agenda request before we end this meeting: when / how will Sugar Labs election take place?
16:24 walterbender [scs]: this may be something we are not doing well... but it seems to me what a community as opposed to an individual effort can do
16:24 CanoeBerry: Luke tells me, 1 Nov. (whereas I had thought 1 Oct.)
16:25 Perhaps we should end the 'official' meeting as we are well past the hour.
16:25 I am traveling again next week... shall we plan to meet again in two weeks?
16:25 CanoeBerry Last year the election took place aover about 2 weeks -- what will the time period be this year?
16:26 walterbender CanoeBerry: I believe so
16:26 CanoeBerry What timeframe?
16:26 walterbender CanoeBerry: what timeframe for what?
16:26 CanoeBerry During what timeframe will the election run?
16:26 walterbender CanoeBerry: the first 2 weeks of Nov
16:27 CanoeBerry OK, I may not be able to vote, being offline then, but that is OK.
16:27 walterbender CanoeBerry: I will reconfirm with Luke
16:27 CanoeBerry: maybe Mako can add a provision for absentee ballots to his system
16:27 [scs] walterbender: a local lab in Paraguay would be great, especially if it gets funding from Itaipú
16:27 walterbender [scs]: yes...
16:28 [scs]: maybe it is wrong, but the decision we made at SL was to try to develop local, self-sustaining groups to be the real presence of Sugar regionally
16:29 I find that the efforts of Paraguay Educ, Ceibal Jam, et al. as a harbinger for our future growth and stability
16:29 CanoeBerry Yes Paraguay Educa's doing that.. one of the only groups worldwide to take this seriously, hiring a volunteer coordinator (Carla / CCR)
16:30 Tomeu would be proud.
16:30 walterbender CanoeBerry: I think OZ is beginning to step up
16:30 CanoeBerry: and Ceibal as well
16:30 bernie walterbender: there's no way we can accept new candidates for the board elections?
16:30 walterbender and in .pe they are beginning to understand the value of the community
16:30 CanoeBerry walterbender: Interesting, put me in touch if you can.
16:30 bernie walterbender: Claudia Urrea and Pacita Peña both missed the deadline.
16:31 walterbender CanoeBerry: it takes time... and your great example
16:31 bernie: I wasn't aware they were interested in applying...
16:31 bernie: but I think it would be unfair to reopen the ballot.
16:31 CanoeBerry bernie's got a great point -- elections without promotion are meaningless
16:32 participation requires promotion as a prerquisite
16:32 walterbender CanoeBerry: I don't follow how that follows from what bernie said
16:32 CanoeBerry: not that I disagree about the value of promotion
16:32 bernie [scs]: regarding Sugar support, I think the best compromise for paraguay is taking the stable builds released by OLPC and adding the features required by paraguay on top of them.
16:32 [scs]: which is exactly what we did with Dextrose...
16:32 cjb yes, that's bit of a weird thing to say.  Adam, you're on SLOBs too, right?  :)
16:33 CanoeBerry Claudia & Pacita did not know to register as candidates.. we lose great candidates and weaken our effort.
16:33 cjb CanoeBerry: what do you propose we do about it?  and, why didn't you propose it earlier?
16:33 bernie [scs]: olpc just released a new stable build and SMParrish is checking if there are any bug fixes that we missed.
16:34 CanoeBerry i did a small bit promoting http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]0-2011-candidates
16:34 but if such pages are not promoted by others, our election becomes a joke
16:34 walterbender we have two strong educators as candidates: Gerald and Rosamel... which is a real plus for SL
16:35 CanoeBerry our election was not promoted uring the candidacy period, which concerns me gravely
16:35 walterbender CanoeBerry: we put the world out on Sur and other forums as well and also reached out personally
16:35 ^world^word
16:35 cjb CanoeBerry: hm, wasn't it in the Sugar Digest?
16:35 CanoeBerry anyway Bernie can speak to Claudia and Pacita's qualifications, I cannot.
16:35 walterbender CanoeBerry: I suppose dfarning will jump on me, but I humbly disagree
16:36 cjb CanoeBerry: I'm still not following what precisely youthink we did wrong, and why youdon't seem to feel complicit in it
16:36 walterbender CanoeBerry: no one is questioning their qualifications... it is a matter of having a fair and transparent process
16:36 cjb sorry, wonky space bar :)
16:36 CanoeBerry cjb: we are all complicit, i don't find a blame game constructive
16:36 walterbender Are you suggesting we reopen the list at this late date?
16:37 cjb CanoeBerry: okay.  when yousay "promoted by others", that sounded like a blame game that wans't including you.
16:38 CanoeBerry if the election is a joke i will not participate
16:38 elections need serious promotion
16:38 bernie well, regardless of who did wrong, neither Pacita nor Claudia were aware of the deadline.
16:38 I told them that the list was closed after the fact.
16:39 walterbender bernie: I was with Claudia in CR two weeks ago. She knew then than she had missed the deadline.
16:39 CanoeBerry anyway, nobody said elections were easy :)
16:39 cjb bernie: I guess it's not obvious to me how committed members of SL could have not realized that we were having an election
16:39 walterbender CanoeBerry: I find your characterization harsh. Nonetheless, how do we do better?
16:40 bernie walterbender, CanoeBerry, cjb, mchua_afk: perhaps the 5 of us could meet in person later this week? I feel like we should have a much deeper face-to-face discussion.
16:40 cjb it happens every year at this time, and it was announced on iaep, in Sugar Digest, probably other places too.  how can we characterize that as a sham election?
16:40 bernie (anyone else welcome to come to boston, of course)
16:40 CanoeBerry electing what?
16:41 cjb CanoeBerry: SLOBs?
16:41 bernie cjb: well, claudia and pacita are admittedly not yet core members of SL...
16:42 CanoeBerry Right, but they should be considered if they are serious.
16:42 bernie cjb: let's say that this gaffe will not help get them more involved...
16:42 cjb what is the gaffe?
16:42 CanoeBerry Non-promotion
16:42 cjb people who are apparently uninterested in SL's governance structure didn't know enough about SL's governance structure to take part
16:42 CanoeBerry: you keep saying that, and it keeps being untrue
16:43 we don't have an advertising budget
16:43 we have mailing lists and newsletters
16:43 and we used them
16:43 If you know of a channel that would have been vastly superior, you could have mentioned it or promoted the electiont here yourself
16:43 CanoeBerry Who is Promoting SLOB's roles, inspiring people to run?  We have failed.
16:44 walterbender CanoeBerry: I come back to my question. How do we concretely do better?
16:44 CanoeBerry Tomeu tried; to his great credit.
16:46 walterbender and my other question: do you think there is a fair and transparent way to add new candidates at this late date?
16:46 cjb CanoeBerry: where did he do that?  maybe knowing that will help knowing where the rest of us failed so desperately.
16:46 CanoeBerry Farning+Bender did the best work of all defining http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Oversight_Board -- but these docs are now rusty :-)
16:47 walterbender CanoeBerry, bernie: can you take as an action item answering my two questions?
16:48 cjb walterbender: I don't think there's anything desperately unfair in principle with deciding that we'd like more candidates and we're going to keep the nominations open for another week to get them
16:48 walterbender CanoeBerry, bernie: there is some urgency as the election is days away
16:48 cjb so I suppose I'd support doing that, although I'm as baffled as you are with the way the conversaiton's gone
16:48 CanoeBerry can the election be delayed? (not saying it should, but can it?)
16:48 bernie walterbender: I think the problem is that the communication media we use is unfamiliar to non-geeks. the educators of paraguay educa and olpc communicate differently.
16:48 walterbender CanoeBerry: certainly it can be delayed...
16:49 bernie: I suppose. I am in IRC with Pacita and Claudia every week and the election was brought up in that channel
16:49 as was the call for candidates
16:49 bernie walterbender: we can't reach out for them, because they don't read mailing lists and wikis... as disgusting as it sounds, they prefer skype, google docs and email attachments.
16:49 CanoeBerry bernie has great ideas, if FSF doesn't pull him away.  this election needs energy otherwise it becomes an echo chamber
16:50 bernie walterbender: yes, claudia uses irc as well. she's great. I did not know about pacita.
16:50 walterbender bernie: every week...
16:51 but obviously the details didn't get communicated properly
16:51 cjb bernie: perhaps a dumb question, but if a candidate doesn't use the wiki or mailing lists, how is anyone going to know enough about them to want to vote for them?
16:51 CanoeBerry i'm as much to blame as the rest of us: but where are the DSD's, and Caroline Meeks's and Bastien Guerry's who ran last year?
16:51 we need an answer
16:51 cjb is slightly ashamed to admit that he only the vaguest of idea who Pacita is
16:52 walterbender CanoeBerry, bernie: regarding my proposed action item?
16:52 bernie walterbender: to answer your second question... admitting new candidates at this point may look unfair. I don't know what to propose.
16:52 CanoeBerry why isn't Sebastian Dziallas running?
16:52 christophd cjb: pacita is paraguayeduca's educational lead
16:52 cjb CanoeBerry: have you asked him?
16:52 CanoeBerry Nope
16:53 walterbender is tired of people speculating as to what other people are thinking rather than just asking them
16:53 cjb christophd: ok.  I don't know if there was a reason I should have known that.
16:53 [scs] walterbender: I helped Pacita with her page in the SL wiki, it's true we are new to SL governance, but for a while the elections page was even wrong, listingSunday Oct. 1 as the deadline for membership
16:54 here it is http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/Members
16:54 CanoeBerry who talks to Sebastian Dziallas these days?
16:54 [scs] anyway, the information was not good
16:54 bernie cjb: I have a recursive answer for your question: if there were more community members from the education world, the'd know about candidates such as pacita and claudia.
16:54 walterbender [scs]: yes. that was a mistake in communication with the election committee
16:55 cjb CanoeBerry: I guess a somewhat fundamental disagreement is in the burden of communicating interest in standing in an election apparently being on us to the candidates, rather than the candidates to us
16:55 bernie cjb: I guess christophd and CanoeBerry know how to reach out for them.
16:55 CanoeBerry cjb: i'm not interested in legalistics, i'm interested in participation
16:55 bernie cjb: the OLPCSF meeting was also full of that "other" type of volunteers I'd like to reach out for.
16:55 walterbender CanoeBerry: I was on irc with him last night...
16:55 CanoeBerry: he is swallowed up in school
16:56 CanoeBerry ok
16:56 bernie CanoeBerry: sdz is disappeared?
16:56 walterbender CanoeBerry: and I am interested in concrete action items...
16:56 bernie: he is adjusting to freshman year in a very intense engineering program
16:56 [scs] if I may speak for Pacita, what motivates PY is to have closer ties to SL, maybe there are other mechanisms than sitting on a board to achieve this, Pacita is not desperate to run for SLOB if we can achieve the goal in a different fashion
16:57 walterbender bernie: but he is, for example, going to a technology in education conference this weekend.
16:57 CanoeBerry is a 1 month delay on recruiting candidates wise?  Until Nov 1 instead of Oct 1?
16:57 walterbender [scs]: my impression from speaking with her as well...
16:58 cjb okay.  well, like I said, I'm willing to support providing a few more days for more candidates; I'm just finding this idea that we've failed if we didn't somehow spread the word about the election to people who weren't paying attention to any of our communication channels to be totally bizarre.
16:58 CanoeBerry candidates needs to be recruited not spammed
16:58 cjb allowing more candidates until 1 Nov, and also opening the election on 1 Nov
16:58 would work for me
16:58 CanoeBerry spamming accomplishes nothing
16:58 walterbender CanoeBerry: I am not opposed to opening the door to additional candidates as long as it is clearly spelled out as to why and the community has time to react.
16:58 e.g., not by fiat
16:59 CanoeBerry sorry for my harsh words today
16:59 plz nobody take this personally
16:59 i saw 130++ fired up this wkd in person
16:59 doing things right
16:59 walterbender CanoeBerry: can you please write up a draft not to send to the community as to the rationale?
16:59 CanoeBerry we need to bring that energ home
16:59 walterbender CanoeBerry: run it past SLOBS and then we can send it out?
17:00 CanoeBerry:
17:00 I am not sure we don't want to keep that energy in the field where it is accomplishing things :)
17:01 CanoeBerry: you saw 130++ fired up and why is that not an indication that there is positive energy in the community?
17:01 kfx <kfx!~kfx_@unaffiliated/kfx> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:01 CanoeBerry when will the election run if we accept candidates until Nov 1?
17:01 can we be specific?
17:01 cjb Nov 1 - Nov 14
17:01 say?
17:01 CanoeBerry all agree?
17:02 walterbender sure... but let's make a formal motion
17:02 cjb that's when it was going to run anyway
17:02 bernie [scs]: I think having pacita on the SL board would be mostly a symbolic act. the board is not where education or technical issues are being discusses
17:02 discussed
17:02 CanoeBerry sounds fine to me, i don't care if i vote or not.
17:02 shouldn't admit that of course :)
17:02 cjb MOTION: we should continue allowing new candidates to run up until the start of the election on Nov 1
17:02 CanoeBerry just that i'm away+offline nov 1-14
17:02 +1
17:02 MOTION: election nov 1-14
17:02 bernie cjb: +1
17:03 cjb CanoeBerry: the election was already nov 1-14.  you don't need a motion for that.
17:03 CanoeBerry great
17:03 bernie CanoeBerry: +1
17:03 walterbender cjb: I'd like to amend the motion to include a notification to the community
17:03 cjb walterbender: ok
17:03 CanoeBerry perfect
17:03 bernie walterbender: +1 to your amendment
17:03 cjb we're pretty short on time
17:03 so I'm not sure how that'll work
17:03 bernie are people still interested in a face2face meeting later this week?
17:03 walterbender cjb: yes we are... but I don't think we have a choice
17:03 cjb: when are you back from Taipei?
17:04 CanoeBerry bernie: YES!
17:04 walterbender (and how is 1.75?)
17:04 CanoeBerry Fri night please?
17:04 cjb arrive back Nov 2, then Linux Plumbers Conf Nov 3-5
17:04 bernie yeah how is it?
17:04 CanoeBerry I'm gone Sat Oct 30 for 2+ wks
17:04 cjb pretty good
17:04 [scs] bernie: yes, I think the symbolic act would bring more power to the local stakeholders, but I assume campaign strategies should go on a different channel :)
17:04 walterbender cjb: great !
17:04 cjb http://dev.laptop.org/~cjb/1.75-a1-dmesg
17:04 http://dev.laptop.org/~pgf/xo-1.75-broughtup.jpg
17:04 etc
17:05 CanoeBerry Can we clarify the motion now?
17:05 Can we also clarify Lame Duck procedures during our next meeting?
17:05 I'm very concerned about Lame Duck SLOBS, who disempower us all.
17:05 bernie cjb: regarding OLPC and Dextrose releases, would you have some time later this week to discuss a common roadmap? I'd be interested in synchronizing releases and increasing the interchange of bugfixes.
17:06 tch is there any ideas of how we could avoid this situation happening for the next elections?
17:06 cjb MOTION: we should announce our intention to continue (allowing new candidates to run in the election up until Nov 1) to iaep@, gather feedback, and proceed with that if there are no strong objectoins
17:06 bernie tch: good point
17:06 cjb bernie: I'm not sure there's any OLPC<->Dextrose linkage needed here
17:06 bernie: get your patches in Sugar and OLPC RPMs
17:06 and then we will ship them later
17:06 bernie cjb: please rephrase the motion with a person responsible for doing it.
17:06 walterbender cjb: I second the motion
17:07 cjb bernie: that doesn't need to go in the motion
17:07 bernie cjb: maybe walter? or yourself?
17:07 walterbender cjb: we can follow up with some #actions
17:07 cjb I'm about to sleep, 1am here
17:07 so walter would be better, please
17:07 bernie cjb: anyway, I'm +1 on your motion
17:07 cjb okay, let's vote on that one
17:07 +1
17:07 walterbender +1
17:08 CanoeBerry +1 with get-out-the-vote chutzpah required from all of here, if we believe in Sugar.  If not we should resign.
17:08 bernie cjb: yes, the OLPC <-> Dextrose thing was OT here... let's meet up _another_ day to talk about it.
17:08 cjb: I feel like we could work a little less and serve deployments a little better.
17:09 walterbender bernie: vote?
17:09 CanoeBerry bernie: can you pass the above vote?
17:09 cjb CanoeBerry: speaking of which, we might want to suggest procedures for replacing absentee SLOBs
17:09 CanoeBerry cjb: +10
17:09 bernie walterbender: cjb's motion? I already voted it +1
17:09 cjb we've been struggling to hit quorum every week, which shouldn't happen
17:10 CanoeBerry bernie: plz confirm you agree with the revised motion
17:10 cjb oh yeah, motion passes, it did get four
17:10 walterbender ok. motion passes. 4 yeah. 3 absent
17:10 I'll circulate it to SLOBS by email to get any additional votes
17:11 #action: CanoeBerry will write up an explanatory note and walter will circulate the change in rules to the community
17:11 bernie CanoeBerry: which revised motion?
17:11 CanoeBerry cjb's revision above.
17:11 bernie CanoeBerry: I voted +1 on this one:
17:11 <cjb> MOTION: we should announce our intention to continue (allowing new candidates to run in the election up until Nov 1) to iaep@, gather feedback, and proceed with that if there are no strong objectoins
17:11 CanoeBerry great.
17:11 walterbender #action: all of us will do our best to solicit new candidates and promote the vote
17:11 bernie tch: GURAIT-TO
17:12 cjb s/objectoins/objections/, oops :)
17:12 CanoeBerry Clarif: are new Sugar Labs members also welcome until Nov 1?
17:12 What time Nov 1 in both cases?
17:12 bernie CanoeBerry: no, screw them.
17:12 :-))
17:12 tch bernie: ;)
17:12 walterbender CanoeBerry: that should be a sep. motion
17:12 bernie just joking. I'd say yes
17:12 jocking
17:12 cjb CanoeBerry: that's not what the motion said, so no
17:12 akeybl <akeybl!~akeybl@> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:12 CanoeBerry Do we want that?  I'd say yes.
17:12 cjb throwing out our membership requirement completely seems a bit over the top
17:13 it's in the bylaws for a reason
17:13 CanoeBerry Do the bylaws say Oct 1 5pm?
17:13 bernie cjb: I'd not throw out the requirement to be a sugar contributor
17:13 cjb bernie: how do you measure that?
17:13 bernie in fact, we don't have a deadline for becoming members
17:14 we only have a deadline to let new members vote at the elections
17:14 CanoeBerry Shouldn't those 2 dates be aligned?
17:14 cjb CanoeBerry: I don't think they list a time.  GMT 6pm == midnight EDT works for me
17:14 bernie cjb: the membership "committee" (only one person) decides
17:14 CanoeBerry cjb: agreed
17:15 bernie cjb: we had 2 people on the membcom last year, but it's a boring job and I'm glad lfaraone was available to do it this year.
17:15 walterbender I am comfortable with opening up the dates for getting a ballot, but we should vote on it... motion please
17:15 cjb walterbender: getting a ballot == voting?
17:15 CanoeBerry ?
17:15 cjb not sure I see the motivation for doing that
17:16 CanoeBerry is there a reason both deadlines should not be aligned?
17:16 walterbender cjb: yes...
17:16 bernie walterbender: what ballot? did we have ballots in our election procedures last year?
17:17 walterbender alignment or not, is there a reason other than logistics, not to keep registering voters until the last possible moment.
17:17 CanoeBerry (1) deadline to put your name in as a candidate (2) deadline to become a voting member
17:17 bernie is confused
17:17 walterbender bernie: we send a ballot to each member.
17:17 CanoeBerry Both dates should be aligned, unless I'm missing something.
17:17 cjb bernie: ballot == you get the e-mail with a token to vote
17:17 this depends on you being a member
17:18 bernie ah, I misinterpreted the meaning of ballot. in italian it's when you have to vote a second time to choose among the top candidates.
17:18 cjb ah, that's called a runoff in US
17:18 walterbender bernie: ah...
17:18 yama has quit IRC
17:18 cjb anyway, I don't see anything else that obviously needs changing here
17:18 walterbender anything else before we adjourn?
17:19 CanoeBerry so what's the deadling for applying to vote?
17:19 so what's the deadline for applying to vote?
17:19 walterbender shall we leave it to Luke's discretion? he is the one who has to manage the logistics
17:19 CanoeBerry we need to promote both dates
17:19 cjb I think that deadline has passed
17:19 CanoeBerry seems dumb
17:20 cjb restricting voting privileges to members of an organization seems dumb?
17:20 CanoeBerry motion: extend deadline to register to vote, to align it with midnight EDT Nov 1
17:20 same as deadline of putting in your name to become a candidate
17:20 11:59pm EDT Nov
17:21 cjb you're essentially rewriting the bylaws to forget about the idea of membership if we do this
17:21 CanoeBerry show me the bylaw
17:21 cjb which seems like it should require a stronger raitonale than "seems dumb"
17:21 *rationale
17:21 CanoeBerry show me the bylaw
17:22 cjb on the other end of a very tiny internet pipe.  have you tried looking it up from there?
17:23 bernie walterbender: +1 on letting the Membership Committee (lfaraone) decide autonomously
17:23 walterbender: whoever disagrees can volunteer for the membership committee next year :-)
17:23 CanoeBerry delaying communications is dangerous
17:23 yama <yama!~yama@124-149-59-60.dyn.iinet.net.au> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:23 CanoeBerry but lfaraone is fast, it is true
17:23 yama has quit IRC
17:23 yama <yama!~yama@ubuntu/member/yama> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:24 CanoeBerry what bylaw is cjb talking about?
17:24 silbe Where _is_ the bylaws? I looked for it some time ago, but didn't find it.
17:24 cjb http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/Members seems to describe the situation as I understood it
17:24 but it's not phrased as a bylaw
17:25 akeybl has quit IRC
17:25 cjb anyway, that page makes clear that in the eyes of the Membership Committee, there's a deadline for registering to vote, and it was Oct 1
17:25 walterbender sunjammer seems wedged again :(
17:25 silbe (the formal one that probably needed to be sent to the government - assuming tax exemption works similar to how it works in Germany)
17:25 CanoeBerry let's change this wiki page please, to Nov 1, 11:59pm EDT
17:25 cjb we could vote to allow them to change that, but that's begging the question -- shouldn't they ask *us* if htey want to change it, if twe're voting to delegate to them?
17:26 CanoeBerry: so are we overruling the membership committee, or not?
17:26 bernie walterbender: damn!
17:27 CanoeBerry motion: SLOBS shouls suggest to the membership committee, to change voter reg deadline on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/Members, to Nov 1, 11:59pm EDT
17:27 motion: SLOBS should suggest to the membership committee, to change voter registration deadline on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/Members, to Nov 1, 11:59pm EDT
17:27 cjb we don't need a motion to offer them a suggestion.
17:27 CanoeBerry huh
17:27 bernie ok
17:28 cjb we just say it.  I can't find any bylaws, which I guess means they can do whatever they like with regard to the election.
17:28 walterbender: do we not have bylaws?  :)
17:28 walterbender #action: walter to speak to lfarone about extending the reg. date.
17:28 CanoeBerry let's pick a coherent deadline together here, vote or no vote i don't care
17:28 we cannot do promotion if we procrastinate
17:29 cjb Nov 1 is the coherent deadline
17:29 walterbender cjb: with the wiki down, I cannot point you to them...
17:29 cjb walterbender: I tried searching google for site:wiki.sugarlabs.org bylaws, no hits
17:29 walterbender cjb: I don't think we called them bylaws...
17:30 cjb: but we have a pretty concrete set of governance rules
17:30 cjb okay.  well, let's take that part to e-mail, I guess.
17:30 walterbender some baked into our agreement with the SFC as well.
17:30 cjb we can ask the membership committee what it wants to do
17:30 and then work out whether it's allowed or not :)
17:31 walterbender OK. well, we have some work to do and it is late in Taipei.
17:31 I suggest we adjourn
17:31 cjb thanks, sounds good
17:31 CanoeBerry Motion: encourage Election Committee (lfaraone) to delay the start of the election by a few days if that makes his life more sane -- preparing ballots
17:31 Nov 1 12:01am start of election is a nice idea, but impossible
17:31 walterbender CanoeBerry: I don't think we need a motion for that.
17:32 cjb CanoeBerry: I just said, it's meaningless to have a motion on "talk to Luke".  anyone can do that at any time, he's a friendly guy.
17:32 walterbender I'll talk to him.
17:32 CanoeBerry this info must be promoted now, not delayed
17:32 walterbender CanoeBerry: meanwhile, please write up the rationale for the delay
17:32 cjb CanoeBerry: then go ahead immediately
17:32 bernie walterbender: I've restarted apache on sunjammer and increased the connections limit to 512. let's see if it helps
17:32 walterbender bernie: thanks
17:33 CanoeBerry alright, thanks all for getting this election back on track
17:33 other business?
17:34 Close meeting?
17:35 cjb yep, close, thanks
17:36 CanoeBerry aside: what i find really dumb is that the election committee can strangle Sugar Labs
17:37 Luke would never do such a thing.
17:37 But the power to delay/revise election dates at will is too much power.
17:37 Oversight we need to provide.
17:37 walterbender #end-meeting
17:37 meeting Meeting ended Tue Oct 26 17:37:37 2010 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
17:37 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-26T15:24:49.html
17:37 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]10-10-26T15:24:49
17:37 cjb too much power.. for anyone except us?
17:37 walterbender thanks everyone.
17:37 CanoeBerry election dates need guidelines
17:37 walterbender I"ve already pinged luke...
17:38 I'll report back
17:38 CanoeBerry election / membership committee must not be able to delay for months/years
17:38 cjb CanoeBerry: personally, I think this should all be in the bylaws, protected even against us
17:38 CanoeBerry something like that, yes
17:38 cjb (I hope it is, and we're just having trouble finding them.)
17:39 I think walterbender's on the right track regarding the SFC, pretty sure they asked for them
17:39 silbe cjb: +1 - and again, where are the formal bylaws?
17:40 CanoeBerry silbe: +1
17:40 silbe in Germany, when you join a "club", it's required to give you a copy of the bylaws.
17:40 CanoeBerry 501(c)(3) orgs in the US here similar.
17:41 Cerlyn Well where is Sugarlabs incorporated? Often your incorporation paperwork is online.
17:42 silbe is Sugar Labs itself 501(c)(3)? or just SFC?
17:44 CanoeBerry walterbender: ^
17:45 Cerlyn I don't see Sugarlabs in the IRS 501(c)(3) database; you're using the SFC for a postal address everywhere I see
17:46 CanoeBerry Could be. walterbender will clarify.
17:46 cjb Cerlyn: just SFC
17:46 SFC is an umbrella 501(c)(3) for free software projects
17:48 Cerlyn cjb: If so why is Sugarlabs claiming copyright for their own website?
17:49 cjb you're asserting that FOSS communities that use SFC can't hold any copyrights?
17:49 that would certainly be unfortunate, given that all of them own copyrights in software
17:49 anyway
17:49 I think that http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]r_Labs/Governance is intended to be the official rules of governance/bylaws
17:49 Cerlyn cjb: I'm not certain if a non-incorporated entity can hold a copyright - could ask an OLPC lawyer
17:50 cjb Cerlyn: is a person an entity?
17:50 rralcala has quit IRC
17:52 silbe cjb: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]garLabs_Agreement
17:52 this seems to be the formal agreement
17:54 Cerlyn cjb: Technically yes; but what I'm saying is in order for a group of people to collectively hold a copyright, it might be required for the group to be legally recognized & defined as a formal group first
17:56 (Obligatory IANAL but someone in the room behind me is)
17:57 silbe cjb: #6 regulates the board membership/election. It doesn't contain details on the membership process or the vote procedure, so it seems the SLOB (resp. a subcommittee of the board) has indeed full power to define (and alter) the voting and membership processes.
17:57 cjb silbe: yeah, vague
17:59 silbe FWIW, I would prefer SL to adopt something more like a formal bylaws, with provision for the board _not_ to be able to alter membership or election rules ad hoc.
18:02 Cerlyn Worth noting though that not everything in the US is a 501(c)(3) (for instance, OLPC-A is a 501(c)(4) while OLPC-F is the 501(c)(3)); hobby clubs are typically a 501(c)(7) (& still file tax returns till the IRS tells them to stop)
18:02 silbe http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]r_Labs/Governance seems to be out of sync with http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]garLabs_Agreement , BTW: the former talks about all 7 seats getting re-elected every year, whereas the latter says the period is 2 years, staggered by 1 year (i.e. elections every year, but only about half of the board members get elected).
18:19 Cerlyn {BTW, the Software Freedom Conservancy is who owns the "Sugar Labs" trademark in the US.  You might want to get them to register your stylized logo as well.}
18:24 icarito <icarito!~icarito@> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:38 lfaraone <lfaraone!~ffm@ubuntu/member/debian.developer.lfaraone> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:38 lfaraone waves
18:39 grantbow <grantbow!~grantbow@unaffiliated/grantbow> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:39 cjb lfaraone: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]eeting/2010-10-26
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18:50 CanoeBerry lfaraone: are we good extending voter reg til nov 1 11:59pm edt?
18:51 lfaraone CanoeBerry: I don't understand the rationale, since the dates have been widely known. FWIW, there are no outstanding membership requests.
18:51 CanoeBerry lfaraone: plz clarify the exact resulting election timing if you can :)
18:51 lfaraone: we delayed the election candidate registration this morning to nov 1 11:59pm EDT
18:51 because folks overlooked this
18:51 lfaraone CanoeBerry: I'm leaning towards keeping new membership applications closed.
18:51 CanoeBerry why?
18:52 candidates were given a 1 month extension this morning
18:52 lfaraone CanoeBerry: because we have a schedule, which was published in advance, and I don't see a compelling reason to extend that schedule.
18:52 CanoeBerry why not give sugar labs new blood at every level?
18:52 we changed that this morning
18:52 candidates were given a 1 month extension this morning, did you see that?
18:52 lfaraone CanoeBerry: plus, if we have to process new applications up to the minute before I send out the ballots, that's simply not a realistic task.
18:53 CanoeBerry: yes, I did.
18:53 CanoeBerry why would voters not be extended similar participation?
18:53 cjb because people who have no current involvement with sugar labs are not competent to vote
18:53 CanoeBerry voter / membership requirements are not changing
18:53 the deadline is what should change
18:54 lfaraone CanoeBerry: if you didn't register by the *posted* deadline it's because you don't read the mailing list, which makes it for a difficult case as to why you'd be a good sugarlabs member.
18:54 CanoeBerry ballots are being changed
18:54 lfaraone does that rationale make sense?
18:54 CanoeBerry not to me
18:54 people who joined in the last month are lesser people?
18:54 cjb CanoeBerry: no-one joined in the last month
18:54 there are 0 membership applications pendings
18:55 CanoeBerry precisely, b/c promotion failed
18:55 now is our chance to fix that
18:55 and give everybody an equal chance
18:55 to nov 1 11:59pm edt
18:55 voters and candidates alike
18:56 cjb I don't think people who have no current interest in SL should be voting in an election in four days.  It takes longer than four days to know who to vote for.
18:57 lfaraone CanoeBerry: if the SLOBs vote on this, I'll abide by that. but I agree with cjb, personally.
18:57 CanoeBerry why are you so sure that voters who register in the next 5 days are ignorant?
18:57 cjb CanoeBerry: they're ignorant of SL's governance structure by definition.  if they weren't, they would know that they're supposed to register if they want to vote.
18:58 CanoeBerry since when do voters have to constitutional scholars? never seen an election like that in my life
18:58 since when do voters have to be constitutional scholars? never seen an election like that in my life
18:58 cjb ...
18:58 voters have to register to vote
18:58 you have seen many elections like that
18:58 this is one of them
18:58 there are deadlines involved
18:58 CanoeBerry elections = participation, not elitism
18:59 how many registered to vote this year?
18:59 lfaraone CanoeBerry: there's no elitism here, just "there was a deadline and it has past". So far, *nobody* who applied to Sugar Labs has been rejected.
18:59 CanoeBerry of the many dozens who have become involved in helping build+support activities over the past year?
18:59 how many?
19:00 cjb CanoeBerry: it's unfortunate if people chose not to register, but it's not evidence of elitism.
19:00 CanoeBerry how many registered to vote in the past year?
19:00 lfaraone According to my records, 16 individuals.
19:00 In comparison, that's a little bit less than half of 2009, where we had 31 individuals.
19:01 will be back, *bell*.
19:01 CanoeBerry ok, but i will not participate in a sham election
19:03 mukul_afk is now known as mukul
19:13 CanoeBerry Just spoke with Sameer Verma who believes restricting voter rights to Oct 1 is highly undemocratic.
19:13 walterbender CanoeBerry: (1) my biggest concern is the seemingly arbitrary manipulation of the election process by SLOBS.
19:14 mukul is now known as mukul_afk
19:14 silbe CanoeBerry: if you really feel this strong about it, I suggest to call for a general resolution. I don't think the SLOB should (be allowed to) change it's own voting process last-minute.
19:14 walterbender CanoeBerry: (2) I know of no voting district in the US that allows on-site registration
19:14 CanoeBerry: but that may be the routine in other places
19:14 CanoeBerry: but to thus call the election a sham is overstated in my opinion
19:15 cjb CanoeBerry: which elections have you been part of that did not involve registering first?
19:15 it's more than overstated, it's totally disingenuous.
19:15 walterbender In fact, I would argue that to make this last minute changes is more likely to lead to a charge of a sham election.
19:15 silbe: ^ SFC is a 501(c)(3)
19:15 lucian_ <lucian_!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:15 CanoeBerry then why not delay the election as we suggested this morning?
19:15 walterbender silbe: we are a member project of the SFC and covered by their bylaws
19:16 silbe: the staggered terms is our agreed process but wasn't implemented until this cycle.
19:16 silbe walterbender: do we need to follow their bylaws re. elections? The agreement (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]arLabs_Agreement) didn't state that.
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19:17 walterbender looks
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19:17 cjb CanoeBerry: no-one proposed a motion for that.  if you think the benefits of delaying it at the last minute outweigh barely having a quorum in the meantime, you could propose that
19:18 CanoeBerry i want a clean election
19:18 we dont have that now
19:18 cjb then stop trying to change it four days before it starts.
19:18 CanoeBerry we already DID
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19:19 silbe CanoeBerry: IMO the only way forward is to either hold the elections as announced several weeks (or months?) before, or decide for a full delay (of _all_ deadlines, by exactly the same amount of time - i.e. no last minute registrations directly prior to the elections) as part of a general resolution (NOT a SLOB decision).
19:19 cjb I guess I just don't understand how you could say it wasn't clean -- we advertised it everywhere we're supposed to, it's totally consistent with previous elections and our governance documents.
19:20 to call it a sham, you have to have an immensely good reason.  so far the reason appears to be "I wanted more people to apply but they didn't".
19:20 CanoeBerry silbe: a voice of reason at last, thank you
19:21 silbe CanoeBerry: FWIW, I would probably vote against the extension. :)
19:21 walterbender CanoeBerry: I still await your statement explaining the rationale for the changes.
19:22 silbe CanoeBerry: what's important to me is that it isn't SLOB arbitrarily altering it's own election process. It needs to be a community decision.
19:22 walterbender silbe: +1
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19:23 walterbender silbe: our SFC bylaws say 'staggered' elections, which is what we are doing... what am I not understanding?
19:25 BTW, I'll check with the SFC, but I think that whenever we assign copywrite to SL, we are in fact assigning it to the SFC on behalf of SL
19:25 SFC owns all of our IP
19:26 but as per the bylaws, we can leave and take it with us if we want to... but it can only be transfered to another non-profit.
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19:27 silbe walterbender: the question is whether only the SFC<->SL agreement (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]arLabs_Agreement) applies w.r.t. how we hold our elections, or if any provisions in the SFC bylaws apply as well.
19:28 walterbender: I think Cerlyn was trying to say that the copyright claim is invalid because it says SL, not SFC.
19:29 Cerlyn silbe: Essentially that; and the stylized logo is not registered (although SFC registered "Sugar Labs" as text on your behalf)
19:29 walterbender Cerlyn, silbe: I will double check with the SFC re the copywrite issue. I don't know the answer.
19:30 Cerlyn unless you maintain some sort of independance, in which case I would expect sugarlabs also would be a registered US non-profit or not-for-profit at some level
19:30 has been on too many non-for-profit boards lately
19:30 silbe which reminds me that we should ask a lawyer whether it makes sense to claim any _copyright_ at all. AIUI even the US left that model behind a long time ago.
19:30 Cerlyn not-for-profit
19:30 walterbender silbe: we didn't hold a staggered election the first time because we needed to seed the process. We didn't the second time because of logistical errors.
19:31 Cerlyn The agreement curiously never mentions "intellectual property", although it does mention the fair market value of "property"
19:31 walterbender silbe: we reaffirmed the staggered model in the run up to this election
19:31 silbe walterbender: then we should update the (second) wiki page.
19:31 walterbender silbe: so there is no reason not to follow the letter of our agreement
19:32 silbe: yes. I'll look at it.
19:32 Cerlyn It's not clear to me either if the SFC is seeking assignment of contributor rights; walterbender might want to look into that as well
19:33 silbe walterbender: that question (SFC bylaws) was in relationship to how the election need to be run in general (member registration, new members can't vote, etc.), not re. the staggering. the latter was werely an inconsistency in the wiki.
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19:33 silbe walterbender: thanks!
19:36 as a German (where there's only "authors right", not copyright) I feel like I'm making false claims if I write "(C) 2010 Sascha Silbe". I don't have (nor need to have) copyright over any piece of code.
19:39 walterbender silbe: CC'd you on the note to the SFC...
19:39 silbe: and the Governance page is updated in the wiki
19:39 silbe walterbender: nice, thanks!
19:40 Cerlyn In the end one can nudge lawyers all you want; but what really matters is what you and the SFC believe the agremeent is supposed to mean.
19:42 CanoeBerry thanks all for researching the legalistics of our bylaws regarding elections.  let us hope teachers+immigrants to our community are not only allowed to run & build & grow who we are, but also can also speak their consciences.  if our community is one that fears immigrants+teachers new to these parts, this is unfortunately not a place i (personally) will remain.
19:42 silbe Cerlyn: if the lawyers speak for SFC, then that's the same. :)
19:42 walterbender Cerlyn: the spirit of the agreement is that I described... but I just pinged the SFC for their professional opinion
19:42 Cerlyn: they are our lawyers...
19:42 Cerlyn yup
19:43 http://www.sfconservancy.org/members/services/ seems to describe it; I just worry a bit since Sugarlabs itself seems to be unincorporated (of course you would know better)
19:46 silbe CanoeBerry: you seem to be thinking that we're trying to prevent some people from getting elected. I can't imagine anyone has that goal.
19:52 CanoeBerry there's long, long history to preventing voters rights on this planet..
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19:57 silbe CanoeBerry: Come off it, please. The vote was properly announced using the regular SL channels. We didn't do anything to prevent anyone from joining.
19:57 it's not like iaep or the sugar digest is hard to discover
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19:59 silbe you're making it sound like there's some intrigue going on to actively prevent people from voting
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20:02 silbe CanoeBerry: if you have any suggestion how we can get more people to participate in SL, please post them on iaep. There are a _lot_ more ways to participate than SLOB and IMO most of them are more important.
20:05 lfaraone is back.
20:13 CanoeBerry: I guess I'm just confused as to the perceved "anti-immigrant" feeling you're experiencing. It's standard practice to have registration a few weeks before an election.
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