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#sugar-meeting, 2010-07-12

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
15:03 sdziallas I'd like to keep this really short this week.
15:03 mchua What do we have from last week's meeting?
15:03 sdziallas #link http://me.etin.gs/sugar-meetin[…]0100705_1502.html
15:04 #topic Weekly SoaS Meeting (2010/07/12)
15:05 satellit_Acer listening
15:05 sdziallas looks at agenda.
15:05 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]k_meetings#Agenda
15:05 mchua Feature freeze is fast upon us.
15:05 sdziallas #info Feature Freeze approaching quickly.
15:05 Jinx.
15:05 #action send out reminder notes about feature freeze
15:06 mchua No new feature proposals in the queue this week, but we'd best get those through quickly if we want them at all.
15:06 Activities in particular... I'd be up for scheduling a sprint to push through Activity feature proposals kicking-forward.
15:06 sdziallas #info no new feature proposals this week
15:06 pbrobinson mchua: Is this still planned http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/More_robust_iso
15:06 sdziallas #action activity inclusion discussion to happen on list
15:06 (if that's okay with everybody?)
15:07 pbrobinson sdziallas: That was the other thing I said I would do and didn't. Will do it after the meeting
15:07 sdziallas pbrobinson: okeydokey :) thanks!
15:07 satellit__ http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]tivity_Test_Table  is up to date
15:07 mchua pbrobinson: It is, but I've gotten lmacken radio silence since last time we talked, I'll nudge him harder about the deadline.
15:07 sdziallas: sure, I can take the activity inclusion discussion action item, too
15:08 sdziallas: did you take the reminder-notes-about-feature-freeze one, or is that up for grabs?
15:08 sdziallas mchua: I rambled very few about that at the end of last meeting.
15:08 mchua: can do that.
15:08 cool. moving on?
15:09 #topic Testing Process
15:09 I think we need a cron job to be scheduled for that, right?
15:09 #link http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2058
15:10 satellit__ nightly composes still not working
15:10 sdziallas I dunno how to do that, anybody? I'd be willing to be walked through that process.
15:10 mchua I have a script from ctyler, the cron job just needs to call it.
15:11 pbrobinson mchua: who can add the cron job?
15:11 mchua sdziallas: do you have sudo on dl.sl.o? that's what's needed to do it.
15:11 (I think. Whatever server the files are hosted on, we need someone with root access, iirc.)
15:11 sdziallas mchua: it's sunjammer.sl.o.
15:11 I don't think I do.
15:11 mchua I don't.
15:12 I'll take the action of harassing someone who does to execute that ticket. :)
15:12 will do that now in the background as the remainder of the meeting proceeds
15:12 sdziallas Actually, I might have.
15:12 Okay. We can figure that out.
15:13 #topic mtd's talking points
15:13 pbrobinson: lets defer that, right? :)
15:13 pbrobinson sdziallas: yes please.
15:13 sdziallas #action deferred to next week.
15:14 Next up would be what we want to work on?
15:14 mchua Zooming out for a moment - what's the most important (not urgent, but important) thing we have to do to make SoaS kick ass?
15:14 sdziallas #topic The Big Image
15:15 more robust iso and activities.
15:15 mchua Which is, imo, how we should pick what we want to work on. ;) I think most of us have a general idea of this already, for ourselves.
15:15 sdziallas the former one being the more important one.
15:15 imho.
15:15 pbrobinson I'm working on getting a couple of Apple related issues fixed so we have better support on Mac devices
15:15 sdziallas pbrobinson and mdomsch ftw :)
15:16 garycmartin pbrobinson: fab :)
15:18 mchua a clear testing-feedback-development-release loop, so we have a way to get feedback and react to it.
15:20 pbrobinson a more stable USB key "Sugar on a Stick" environment, and an easy way for non tech users to be able to use that more stable environment. Not really me, but helping out on it
15:21 satellit__ non-compressed fs version +1
15:21 mchua (feedback/testing from non-technical folks - specifically, teachers using it in classrooms - I should clarify.)
15:22 JT4sugar mchua, You should reach out to Gerald Ardito XO/SoaS pilots in New York for help on that one
15:23 mchua JT4sugar: Absolutely. We do'nt have much for them to look at/help with atm, but I'll keep talking about everything I'm doing on the lists, so he should see them.
15:24 just hasn't been having time to do much lately, hence the being-quiet-on-the-lists - everything I do basically goes there.
15:24 pbrobinson is pretty much the same
15:24 sdziallas yup me too.
15:24 mchua caught lmacken in the background, btw, and is currently getting a braindump on liveusb-creator - update is that lmacken has no time but he's currently trying to braindump to unblock us on doing the work he was originally going to pick up.
15:25 pbrobinson excellent.
15:26 JT4sugar mchua, It's summer time he just finished his PHD on Sugar in Classroom so a personal ping may be the way to go. Not everyone keeps up with the lists so it could be missed. He would be extremely helpful in designing the test and feedback from the Teachers
15:27 mchua JT4sugar: I agree, but I'm also *really* hosed right now, so if you could start that ping (email both of us kicking off the convo) it would help
15:28 JT4sugar mchua, I can do the facilitation. Is what you have at moment the info on Wiki page about testing?
15:28 mchua I have 2 talks and a trip to China to prep for in the next 4 days while being full-time in a team retreat and managing a curriculum redesign, so starting yet another conversation I may not be able to handle very well (due to lack of bandwidth) just... can't be very high up on my priority list right now, to be completely honest.
15:28 JT4sugar: Yes, the wiki page is up to date.
15:29 everything I've got is always on the wiki or the list (after which it moves to the wiki)
15:29 JT4sugar: thank you! I really appreciate it.
15:30 JT4sugar mchua, Sure, this feedback loop from the classroom is an important step forward for ongoing improvement
15:30 satellit__ mchua: I posted some testing notes here: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]k_release_process  (random collection)
15:31 mchua JT4sugar: agreed!
15:31 satellit__: thanks!
15:33 This just in: lmacken has unblocked us, we're on our own for liveusb-creator now.
15:33 i'll clean the log and post it and start shouting for ticket help.
15:33 when I next have time to work on soas.
15:33 sdziallas mchua: does that mean we have to do the coding ourselves?
15:33 mchua #action mchua drive liveusb-creator ticket forward, now that lmacken has done a braindump (we're essentially on our own now, he's hosed)
15:33 sdziallas: ....yes
15:33 but I have a vague idea on it now.
15:34 sdziallas mchua: can you also please ask him to push the gui revamp?
15:34 mchua and by "vague" I mean "will start out being utterly lost, but hopefully my frantic flounderings in public will attract more skilled help."
15:34 sdziallas Heh.
15:34 mchua sdziallas: I did, whatever he's pushed so far is what we can expect (anything else is bonus)
15:35 so we basically should not block on him for anything, gui revamp or otherwise... and not expect anything further from that direction
15:35 which is good to know
15:35 so... yeah. I think I'm going to have to apply a lot of "ZOMG NEED WORK DONE HERE NOW COME HELP PLZ" energy to liveusb-creator in the next... two weeks.
15:35 Which means I'll have correspondingly less energy to harass Activity maintainers.
15:35 Actually, I'd like to drop that if I can.
15:35 pbrobinson mchua: in terms of technical details I can help out who ever picks this up. On the linux side of things can probably give them a test script and might be able to do something for windows too
15:35 mchua pbrobinson: oh, sweet. yay!
15:35 sdziallas mchua: ?
15:36 mchua: he didn't push anything, afaict.
15:36 mchua sdziallas: then we should assume he won't.
15:36 sdziallas alright.
15:36 #action mchua drive liveusb-creator ticket forward, now that lmacken has done a braindump (we're essentially on our own now, he's hosed)
15:36 moving on?
15:37 pbrobinson mchua: did he indicate when he's hosed until?
15:37 sdziallas (actually, there's nothing to move on to, we can wrap this afterwards)
15:37 mchua pbrobinson: indefinite.
15:38 Well, if someone else can take the Activities #action now that I know I have to run with the liveusb-creator one, that would be great
15:38 otherwise that one is in danger of slippage since I'm going to be prioritizing liveusb-creator.
15:38 between now and next monday, anyhow.
15:38 sdziallas pbrobinson indicated that he'd send an email and we can take it from there together.
15:39 mchua ok, cool, so you guys have that and I'm *just* doing liveusb-creator this week (and kicking the cron job for the test image, but that's fast.)
15:39 sdziallas (as in: on-list, me thinks)
15:39 mchua cool.
15:39 sdziallas anything else?
15:39 pbrobinson mchua: writing the activities selection email now, we'll throw it out to the list and take it from there.
15:40 mchua thanks!
15:40 has nothing more
15:40 sdziallas awesome.
15:40 closing in 3
15:40 2
15:40 1
15:40 (sorry for rushing this meeting)
15:40 #endmeeting
17:04 jelkner walterbender, how do you want to proceed?  Should I start by updating you on where we are?
17:04 walterbender jelkner: rgs, the co-TA maintainer is joining us as well...
17:04 #TOPIC update
17:04 jelkner: go for it
17:04 jelkner Great
17:04 ellimistd i should fix my name,
17:04 jelkner jboisture has been busy working on the TA website
17:05 here is what he has so far: http://turtleartsite.appspot.c[…]ite/default/index
17:05 dreich, jboisture, and i have been testing it for the last few hours
17:05 walterbender looks
17:05 jelkner it works pretty well
17:06 walterbender jelkner: looks good... how does upload work?
17:06 jelkner not they way we want
17:06 that's what comes next
17:07 rgs looks nice
17:07 jboisture right now if your logged in you can just upload a ta file and an image
17:07 rgs is this PHP?
17:07 jelkner python!
17:07 web2py
17:07 rgs jelkner: even better!
17:07 walterbender jelkner: also, how does one add a comment? Is that only for the person who uploaded?
17:07 jboisture we would like for there to be a share button in turtleart so that its a little more stream line
17:07 rgs jelkner: we should try to build an RPM and add it to a repo to make it easy to install on schoolservers
17:08 jboisture you have to log in first before you can comment
17:08 walterbender just notices the blue-on-blue log-in link
17:08 jelkner rgs, we are using the scratch website as our model
17:08 (a darn good model, btw!)
17:08 we want to add a menu item to TA
17:08 to "share to the web"
17:09 to do this, we need:
17:09 1. a stable URL
17:09 2. a good idea about what resources this will use
17:09 rgs a URL configurable in the Control  Panel :)
17:09 which defaults to http://schoolserver/turtles
17:10 jelkner rgs, that defaults to the main site, ok?
17:10 lol
17:10 you beat me to it
17:10 rgs :)
17:10 jelkner we are hosting in app engine now
17:10 but we want the community to decide where the main site should go
17:10 walterbender question: what is the image in the upload section? I thought we were autogenerating the images?
17:11 jelkner let me address that
17:11 jboisture made auto image generation work
17:11 but then when we moved to app engine for hosting
17:11 it broke, since you don't have access to the file system
17:12 rgs :(
17:12 jelkner correction, we couldn't use gtk there
17:12 walterbender jelkner: I understand, but I thought we were going to set it up with a pipe
17:12 jelkner walterbender, we have been rethinking this a bit
17:12 and we are now convinced it would be better done on the client side
17:12 walterbender oh. ok... but why cannot you use gtk?
17:13 jelkner this will solve several problems
17:13 we won't have to deal with TA programs that have infinite loops for example
17:13 here is what we are thinking:
17:13 inside the client, the "share with the web" button
17:14 runs the program, generates the image, and puts both on the website
17:14 if the program fails to complete
17:14 only the client is effected
17:14 so we don't have to handle that server side
17:14 walterbender jelkner: so you want TA to connect to the server...
17:14 jelkner yes
17:15 just like scratch does
17:15 walterbender jelkner: might be a Rainbow violation, but I think we can do it
17:15 jelkner walterbender, please explain, none of us here know what a Rainbow violation is
17:17 rgs walterbender: you think? We:l only need permissions to do an HTTP POST
17:17 walterbender jelkner: Sugar security tries to segregate functionality so that a program, such as TA, cannot be exploited to unwhittenly upload user data. (Google Bitfrost for details)
17:17 jelkner ahh
17:17 walterbender rgs: I think Rainbow is not running on the current Sugar anyway, but we can ask for an exception
17:18 jelkner i'll be testing this first with the Ubuntu package
17:18 walterbender it may be something we ping m_stone about...
17:18 jelkner i have a precalc class this summer
17:18 we will be using TA a lot
17:18 i wanted to have them be the testers
17:18 walterbender jelkner: eventually, something like Rainbow might run in Ubuntu too.
17:19 and also, at some point, we may want to use the Journal for this as a general solution
17:19 rgs walterbender: +1
17:20 walterbender: 'Upload to Schoolserver' (for any type of entry)
17:20 walterbender: or to my classroom portfolio
17:21 jelkner rgs, i was hoping we could have a global site, not a local one
17:21 that's the beauty of it
17:22 again, my experience with the scratch site has been nothing short of wonderful
17:22 rgs jelkner: well... we should hav both scenarios
17:22 jelkner: internet is not a reality in every deployment
17:22 jelkner i like your suggestion to make it configurable
17:22 rgs jelkner: yeah
17:22 jelkner but it could default to the global site
17:22 i'll always use the global site
17:23 rgs jelkner: in some cases schools would like to host there own gallery.. and then if there servers are publicly available we could mash up all of them
17:23 jelkner: we should stay open to different scenarios
17:23 jelkner fine
17:24 that brings us to the next thing on the agenda
17:24 moving forward
17:24 jamie will be working on this until august 7
17:24 we plan to hold a "TurtleArt Day" event here on that day
17:24 walterbender just uploaded a project :)
17:25 jelkner much like our very successful scratch day
17:25 walterbender #TOPIC turtleday
17:25 jelkner by then, i want to have a public website where participants can share their work
17:25 after jamie goes back to college
17:25 we will need to hand over development of the site to someone else
17:26 another issue is that jamie is a developer, not a designer
17:26 rgs jelkner: is the code available in git.sugarlabs.org ?
17:26 jelkner we will need help to make the site look "sugarized"
17:26 jboisture no but it can be by today
17:26 jelkner it was on launchpad
17:26 but jamie hasn't updated it lately
17:27 he will update launchpad now
17:27 then move it to git
17:27 and then point launchpad to the git repository
17:28 in the near term, i'm asking him for the TA modification to make it possible to upload from TA
17:28 so i was hoping to get guidance on that today
17:29 walterbender jelkner: I'd just add another button to the Activity toolbar that has the other upload/download options...
17:29 rgs I am thinking of a button with a handler that does an HTTP POST.. oh, but you need to be logged int
17:29 *in
17:29 walterbender the only complexity is determining whether or not the network is available and what to do when it is not...
17:30 jelkner when you click on the share on-line button in scratch, it offers you a login dialog
17:30 rgs walterbender: do we get dbus events when we loose connectivity_
17:30 ?
17:30 jelkner i wanted to do the same
17:30 walterbender rgs: I presume that they can set up an account separately with Browse...
17:30 rgs walterbender: and when the activity starts.. do we have something like network_available?
17:30 walterbender rgs: no se
17:31 rgs walterbender: yes, but TA would have to do more than just POSTing, we'd have to script the login procedure, and before that we'd have to fetch the user/password from somewhere
17:31 walterbender rgs: we must already have a mechanism for this in Browse
17:31 rgs maybe the toolbar you suggest creating
17:31 walterbender: for detecting online/offline mode?
17:32 walterbender rgs: and keeping cookies...
17:32 rgs I am working with Lucians code.. I can take a look
17:32 walterbender we should get Lucian to chime in
17:32 jelkner we are looking for guidance
17:33 but our timeline is short
17:33 rgs submitted a trivial patch today to prevent Keep errors in Browse, I will be chasing other bugs today so I'd take a look
17:33 jelkner august 7 jamie is finished
17:33 walterbender jelkner: he could make the changes to TA and leave stubs for the login glue...
17:34 jelkner: and I think if the transaction doesn't complete, we just notify the user...
17:34 no retry.
17:34 jelkner walterbender, can he work on a branch, so we can test it?
17:34 walterbender, exactly
17:34 if it doesn't connect, tell the user
17:34 walterbender jelkner: sure... that is what git is for :)
17:35 jelkner cool
17:37 walterbender I don't think we'll have a generalized solution for all activities for the 7th ...
17:38 jelkner walterbender: what i want by the 7th (actually way before then ;-) is:
17:38 walterbender BTW, as far as the design of the website, I like the simplicity of ta.org
17:38 jelkner 1. a menu item in our Ubuntu TA version to upload to TA to our server
17:38 walterbender maybe add a SL logo somewhere... but not much more
17:39 jelkner 2. support in TA to generate the image and send both the .ta file and the .png file to the server
17:39 walterbender #1 needs #2
17:39 jelkner then i'll work with jboisture on some of the social networking aspects of the site
17:39 like a way for users to mark their favorite art
17:40 walterbender KISS
17:40 jelkner and for the site to display popular art on the home page
17:40 walterbender, i understand
17:40 but again, working with kids
17:40 i see how that makes the scratch site what it is
17:41 the kids love getting feedback from someone somewhere else in the world who liked there art
17:41 walterbender true...
17:41 jelkner (or scratch in this case)
17:41 it provides tremendous motivation
17:41 walterbender how does it handle filtering of comments?
17:41 jelkner that's a good question
17:42 i fear we will be unable to do what i think they do
17:42 they have lots of money, we don't :-(
17:42 i had a student post a project with inappropriate content
17:42 walterbender so we'll do something better...
17:42 jelkner is was unavailable the next day
17:43 walterbender we can use wikipedia-style community editing to community standards
17:43 jelkner nice!
17:44 walterbender the key is to establish the proper culture of critique and accountability...
17:44 history is important...
17:46 jelkner jboisture, since you are the guy working on this
17:46 walterbender anything else we need to cover today?
17:46 jelkner are there any question you need answered before you can continue?
17:47 jboisture no I think I'm okay to proceed
17:47 jelkner that works for me
17:47 walterbender ok... shall we end the meeting?
17:47 jelkner ok, everyone, can we meet next week at the same time to see where we are?
17:48 jboisture works for me
17:48 jelkner walterbender, what do you say?
17:48 walterbender maybe a summary of the #ACTION and #AGREED before we go?
17:48 jelkner sounds good
17:48 walterbender #action Jamie to a menu item in our Ubuntu TA version to upload to TA to our server
17:49 jelkner #action Jamie will move code to git repository
17:49 (turtleartsite code)
17:49 walterbender #action Jamie to add support in TA to generate the image and send both the .ta file and the .png file to the server
17:50 #action rgs to look into how to do the autologin
17:50 #agreed to report back again next Monday, 19th of July
17:50 jelkner excellent!
17:50 walterbender anything else?
17:51 OK. great work guys...
17:51 jelkner see you all next week
17:51 walterbender #endmeeting

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