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#sugar-meeting, 2010-06-04

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
11:11 walterbender Welcome all...
11:12 I'd like to start by quickly reviewing the list of Local Labs so we can officially offer them use of the TM
11:12 #TOPIC local labs
11:12 or not, if we don't think they should...
11:13 mchua As per [[Trademark]] procedure, don't they have to contact us with a request first? (in other words, should our action here really be "ping local labs and say "hey, if you want to use our trademark, please submit a request as per this page!")?
11:13 walterbender mchua: they have all contacted us, but put on hold for over a year...
11:13 and .py has also contacted us...
11:14 mchua Oh! okay, wasn't aware. Where can we see the requests queue?
11:14 walterbender we granted provisional use until the TM policy was sorted out...
11:14 mchua: buried in emails... I can try to dig up all the emails and present them to SLOBs... maybe best to do it that way?
11:15 so we can defer until I've done that homework, if you'd like.
11:16 mchua nods, it'd be nice to have them queued up for quick voting.
11:16 walterbender #ACTION: Walter to gather various requests from local labs for use of our TM in one place
11:16 OK, we'll get to this next time.
11:16 mchua do we have trademark@sl.o alias --> slobs? or something that'll help avoid burying walterbender's inbox in the future?
11:16 SeanDaly we need to formalize who gets to be a local lab (aside from first-come first-served)
11:17 mchua #INFO: Local Labs trademark item deferred 'till next meeting when we have a TM request queue
11:17 SeanDaly: +1
11:17 SeanDaly we've discussed it before; it could be as simple as a SLOBs vote
11:17 but contact a prerequisite in any case
11:17 walterbender SeanDaly: well, we have a set of guidelines and no policy of exclusion (Moodle for example restricts it to tw per country)
11:18 SeanDaly walterbender: that's true
11:18 in my mnd a loca lab was national but really no need to restrict I can think of; could wel be by city?
11:19 i l l
11:19 walterbender #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Local_Labs
11:19 SeanDaly missing letters
11:19 walterbender the question, related to Topic 3 today, is the degree of control and oversight we want to administer
11:20 mchua SeanDaly: I think submitting for a SLOBs vote is a great Local Lab approval proposal - that's going to scale up for a while
11:20 walterbender but maybe we should defer that discussion until later.
11:20 mchua walterbender: actually, what is the rest of the agenda today, for reference?
11:20 Hey, SMParrish_mobile - long time no see.
11:20 walterbender mchua: 2. Dev Team; 3. Certification
11:21 It seems that without Bernie and Tomeu we are not well positioned to discuss #2
11:21 So maybe this is a short meeting...
11:22 But let's switch to that topic for a moment, since we've agreed to defer on Topic #1?
11:22 mchua I think #2 is urgent enough that we should state the problem and then find a way to start bringing it up on list, but that's just me.
11:22 walterbender: +1
11:22 walterbender #TOPIC Devel Team vacancies
11:22 mchua So, this makes me more nervous than anything else - because without continued maintenance of our codebase, we have a shaky foundation for everything else we do to build upon.
11:23 walterbender We have to important vacancies to fill: team leader/coordinator/facilitator and release manager
11:23 mchua The growth we're seeing - deployments, local labs, Soas, the marketing being done, the people being reached - they depend on us having code that functions, and... we're hurting for people.
11:23 walterbender cjb: did anyone throw their hat in the ring?
11:23 mchua nods. How soon is the next release supposed to come out? We don't have a lot of time.
11:24 walterbender mchua: not until Sept/Oct time frame
11:24 cjb walterbender: nope
11:24 walterbender cjb: I was afraid of that...
11:24 Maybe time to do some behind the scenes coercing :)
11:24 cjb yeah.  well, it might be partly because we backed off from the idea in the e-mail replies to the thread.
11:25 mchua Probably. :) There's a limited number of people in the world that *can* fill those positions right now, as I see it
11:25 because some experience with the Sugar codebase is required (I would assume).
11:25 ...or perhaps that assumption is wrong?
11:25 cjb yes, pretty much
11:25 walterbender mchua: agreed, although one could be release manager without knowing the code itself, just the processes
11:26 cjb hm, a while ago it sounded like m_stone could be persuaded to have a shot at release manager
11:26 SeanDaly if tomeu were here, he would say: we need someone experienced, who knows the open source way, and does not need lots of briefing to get up to speed (he will correct me if I err)
11:26 cjb everyone should beat up on him until he says yes :)
11:27 mchua does recall, though, that gregdek did step up to lead the engineering team about 1.5 years ago, and seemed to manage that well even without being a Sugar dev.
11:27 walterbender SeanDaly: yes... the process, but not the details of the code
11:27 mchua So maybe we mostly need someone that groks the open source way and how to wrangle engineering, and is willing to learn more about Sugar over the course of the release.
11:28 CanoeBerry Listening :)
11:29 walterbender The release manager should be about keeping things moving, but not imposing opinions about content... IMHO
11:29 that is for the devel team to do collectively
11:29 cjb I don't really agree, but having a release manager is probably more important than agreement about technique :)
11:30 walterbender cjb: please expand...
11:30 cjb (I think the most important job the release manager does is decide whether a late change constitutes acceptable risk, and I think doing that requires deep understanding of programming and the complexity of a given bug/solution.)
11:30 walterbender cjb: yes, I agree with that...
11:31 and to really understand risk, they will need a deep understanding of Sugar and/or a good process for getting input from those that do...
11:31 cjb yeah
11:31 but I'd rather have a release manager who's enthusiastic and willing to ask other people for advice than no release manager at all :)
11:31 walterbender cjb: +1
11:32 mchua All righty. So, who's finding one?
11:32 JT4sugar Have you thought of asking Satelit he is retired and may be a good fit with the recent work he has been doing
11:32 mchua And what's our fallback if we don't find one by $date? Skip a release?
11:32 walterbender JT4sugar: interesting idea...
11:33 mchua: I don't know how we could release without a release manager... so we'll have to adjust our schedule accordingly
11:33 mtd cjb: I'd rather not have such a release manager - a bad release is worse than no release.
11:33 thinks from the peanut gallery
11:34 cjb: m_stone would be great
11:34 mchua mtd: I agree - so I would reply to walterbender's comment that, if we want an October/November release, then if we don't have a release manager by... say, start of July, we should skip this release, slip 6 months.
11:34 mtd finishes scrollback, thinks m_stone beating should occur.
11:34 cjb can we get a volunteer to attempt to persuade m_stone that we think he would be awesome and he should sign up?  :)
11:34 mchua ...but that's just my opinion.
11:34 mtd cjb: does he not know we think he is awesome?
11:35 cjb mtd: he's had some unsatisfying experiences with us recently
11:35 walterbender so let's ask m_stone ( cjb ) and satellit_ ( JT4sugar )...
11:35 mtd cjb: I told him that a week ago, otherwise I would volunteer to do so again.
11:35 cjb like patches being ignored
11:35 mtd s/ again//
11:35 cjb: I nominate you to tell him again, using force if necesary.
11:35 mchua: yeah
11:35 walterbender perhaps satellit_could shadow m_stone and be ready to do in the next cycle, so we can grow a crop of people ready to fill the role
11:36 and erikos has volunteered to help whomever we find...
11:36 SeanDaly bio crop, no artifical preservatives
11:36 cjb ok
11:36 mchua fires out a quick email to m_stone saying "please do consider the release manager position"
11:36 cjb mchua: thanks
11:37 I think it's good to have him hear it from multiple people he respects
11:37 walterbender I'll make sure he gets a copy of the meeting log as well :)
11:38 and satellit_is perhaps listening in right now :)
11:38 any other ideas for the moment?
11:38 mchua rkabir?
11:38 satellit_ * I am and am unsure I am qualified for something like this
11:39 mchua he certainly has the PM chops - just not the Sugar-specific experience, but this might be the sort of concrete job description he needs to get started.
11:39 shoots off an email to rkabir as well
11:40 walterbender satellit_: but would yu shadow so that you can learn the ropes?
11:40 SeanDaly satellit_: your seriousness & commitment & contributions are appreciated
11:41 satellit_ possibly, but I am uncomfortable with managing this kind of position....
11:41 thanks
11:42 walterbender satellit_: OK..
11:44 shall we use our last 15 minutes to discuss Certification?
11:45 SeanDaly just a question, is it taboo to discuss 6-month release cycle? would a breather be out of the question? My concern is we are too out in front of our deployments
11:45 mchua Yep. And check in on dev team vacancies again next week, I'd say.
11:45 SeanDaly that said, fabulous 0.88 work on XO-1.5 coming up
11:45 mchua SeanDaly: ...actually, that may not be a bad assumption to consider - should we do that here, or on the devel list?
11:46 walterbender +1 to devel
11:46 SeanDaly if it's not taboo, on devel list seems appropriate
11:46 walterbender not taboo... the only thing that is taboo is double-click
11:47 SeanDaly :D :D
11:48 JT4sugar A set of emails laying out what we are looking for in Release Manager and Team Leader should be resent to all lists, including OLPC lists it's our best way to advertise these openings-not sure Community quite understands situation
11:48 SeanDaly another angle is: next release have features lined up, or working on collab reliability, or what?
11:48 walterbender #Action Everyone to turn over more "stones" looking to fill the open positions
11:49 mchua SeanDaly: Or sustainability of having enough people in the future to continue running a good development team? /me always thinks about capacity-building first
11:49 cjb SeanDaly: we don't know what the features will be, because of aforementioned lack of release manager and team lead :)
11:50 walterbender mchua: that is the meta question...
11:50 SeanDaly cjb: I was wondering where feature set came from...
11:50 mchua I would propose that we set a deadline of July 1st to find a release manager for an Oct/Nov release.
11:51 And if we don't have one by then, we slip the release approximately 6 months, and bring up these other questions (release cycle length, etc) to consider.
11:51 walterbender SeanDaly: we discuss features at design meetings and have a feature proposal process
11:51 mchua Since in the absence of dev team leadership, I believe it falls to SLOBs to make sure the engineering moves forward in *some* clear way (even if that way is "we are going to be explicit about deferring our work until we have enough capacity to do it.")
11:51 CanoeBerry total aside: i will be ramping the sri lankan testing team back up on Monday, and will appreciate "educated" opinions on which XO-1 an XO-1.5 builds we should focus on
11:51 walterbender mchua: I agree in principle... have to look at the calendar tho.
11:51 SeanDaly walterbender: ah
11:52 walterbender CanoeBerry: I'
11:52 d focus on cjb's latest for xo 1.5 and .py's for xo 1.0
11:52 mchua CanoeBerry: Will they be on the olpc testing mailing list? I need a single place to send QA efforts towards.
11:52 CanoeBerry mchua: yes
11:52 mchua There's OLPC build testing, sugar-core testing, Activity testing, SoaS testing... they all overlap, etc.
11:52 CanoeBerry: Excellent, I'll see them there then.
11:53 CanoeBerry http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/testing
11:53 walterbender we are running out of time... can we switch topics?
11:54 ?
11:54 CanoeBerry mchua: we'll do our best to post most/a lot of the sri lanka volunteers' conf calls to testing@l.l.o
11:54 cjb sure
11:55 walterbender #TOPIC Certification
11:55 This is related to Topic #1...
11:55 has everyone seen rgs_ 's email?
11:55 CanoeBerry which?
11:55 mchua Link?
11:56 walterbender to summarize, he'd like to use the SL TM on certificates he gives to people who took his devel course
11:56 gets the link from the agenda page...
11:56 SeanDaly "officially recognized Sugar developer"
11:56 walterbender #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]0-May/010965.html
11:57 SeanDaly: that is where we are heading...
11:57 SeanDaly: I think we want high standards, but I also think that we should ultimately let the local labs we have endorsed have the final say...
11:58 cjb sounds good
11:58 walterbender so our role would be to certify the local lab... and let them certify the course...
11:58 SeanDaly walterbender: I can't imagine how we could certify individuals - a tes with N°2 pencils?
11:59 walterbender: so working with the local Lab a necessity I think
11:59 mchua I'd like to know more about the standards they're using for certification - waht does it mean, what can those people do, what assurance do we have of quality of those that are getting certified?
12:00 SeanDaly certifications have worked historically in the industry when large players (Novell, Microsoft, Oracle etc.) want to convince potential employers that there is a sufficiently large pool of employable talent
12:00 walterbender mchua: we should develop guidelines but at some level I think assurance has to be a local thing...
12:01 SeanDaly rgs mentioned something interesting: he proposes cert if Activity comleted
12:01 walterbender mchua: I think the breadth and depth of the .py course, at least on paper, is pretty good
12:01 SeanDaly so perhaps posting it on ASLO could be part of a cert process
12:02 JT4sugar walterbender, You might want to capture the course and certify that as well.  Since Bernie was part of training team in this case certificates seem appropriate
12:02 mchua also thinks that any certified curriculum should be open-content and publicly posted somewhere in the SL universe (or linked-to from it)
12:02 walterbender mchua, SeanDaly yes... how does one know if the course was passed... a working activity is a pretty strong proof...
12:02 mchua: .py materials are open content... on the wiki
12:03 mchua: the link is in the email
12:03 we are just past noon EST... do people need to go?
12:04 CanoeBerry what remains?
12:04 SeanDaly we could insist that a completed Activity follow guidelines and be distributed under a free license, if that's not too shocking
12:04 walterbender CanoeBerry: reaching consensus re Certification
12:04 SeanDaly needs to go shortly
12:05 walterbender SeanDaly: it cannot go on ASLO if it is not under a free license :)
12:05 mchua walterbender: Yeah, just noting that it makes a good requirement for later cases :)
12:05 walterbender: is there a motion we can vote on?
12:05 walterbender well, good input. I can write these suggestions into a motion but to do it justice, let's prepare it for next week?
12:06 mchua: can we meet next week or will the workshop schedule intervene?
12:07 #Action Summarize the Certification discussion into a motion
12:08 Could we meet a bit later on next Friday? After 3PM EST?
12:08 mchua walterbender: I can do that.
12:09 walterbender mchua: that being the summary :)
12:09 mchua er, uh... meeting after 3pm EST Friday.
12:09 is totally hosed for the next 2 weeks
12:09 SeanDaly after 3pm EST should be doable for me, but not before (commuting/supper)
12:10 walterbender is total hosed... that is life :)
12:10 #agreed meet next week (11 June) at 3pm EST, 19UTC
12:11 cjb ok
12:11 walterbender anything else? /me has to take a call in a few minutes...
12:12 mchua I think we're set.
12:12 Good meeting. :) We should keep moving them along at this clip.
12:13 SeanDaly sure, we just need to avoid controversies :D
12:14 walterbender #endmeeting

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