| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 10:11 | bernie | lurks |
| 10:11 | SeanDaly | I'm so behind, I haven't posted logs of past 3 meetings to wiki |
| 10:11 | JT4sugar | SeanDaly, Can you send me the meeting notes from last week, need info from before I joined |
| 10:11 | SeanDaly | and haven't arranged travel to Boston yet |
| 10:12 | JT4sugar | What days are you planning to be there? |
| 10:12 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: yes but will take me a few minutes on another non-Internet computer |
| 10:12 | JT4sugar | Thanks |
| 10:12 | SeanDaly | April 11-12-13 or thereabouts |
| 10:13 | if I can find a decent ticket | |
| 10:13 | and if I can afford it ii want to go to Miami too | |
| 10:13 | JT4sugar | Let me know I may try to join |
| 10:14 | SeanDaly | would be fantastic, tomeu will be in Boston from 12th I believe for Gnome hackfest, idea is to have SLOBs & contribs around a table to discuss in particular trademark issues |
| 10:15 | in Miami i would like to meet Rodrigo and discuss joint PR with OLPC-A | |
| 10:15 | JT4sugar | That would be very helpful if you can put it together |
| 10:15 | SeanDaly | as I say not at all sure what I can afford for flights + hotels and II don't want to use too many vacation days either |
| 10:16 | I've fallen way behind in things needing to get done and I feel a trip will help me concentrate & catch up without work/home constraints | |
| 10:18 | JT4sugar | Ask your company to give you the days and pay for it as their contribution to "Learning in the World" Can't hurt to ask. Have them get a local write up about your trip |
| 10:21 | SeanDaly | in fact the company foundation has just had a reorg, tried to reach new education person a month ago, no response will try again |
| 10:24 | JT4sugar | What are the key items for today? |
| 10:25 | SeanDaly | I'm very concerned about SoaS situation |
| 10:25 | it is being re-engineered for stability, which is fine, but the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, it won't be suitable as a teacher demo | |
| 10:26 | no sweat since we don't have media commitments, but this derails PR momentum | |
| 10:28 | JT4sugar | Not if we position it as the future of Sugar and approach Developers and Teachers(Tech oriented) with it as an R&D project. Also give them known working SoaS version with many activities. We will always have lag between cutting edge and classroom usable |
| 10:28 | SeanDaly | SoaS version numbers - originally my idea as marketing comm - v1, v2 - now a problem since engineers don't want to do a step number and we will miss PR-friendly v3 release |
| 10:29 | We can certainly continue recommending Blueberry for demos, and Mirabelle for deployments (the whole handful of them) | |
| 10:31 | JT4sugar | The question with Mirabelle for deployments beyond testing is if enough activities are not running correctly I would much rather have a classroom with Strawberry where activities are working |
| 10:32 | We must seperate out ability to work in class now versus we are testing this for the future. I think they are two different scenarios. | |
| 10:33 | SeanDaly | i question the gluing of SoaS to latest greatest Fedora, my concern is we are galloping ahead and losing compatibility with old PCs, one of our key promises |
| 10:34 | on phone | |
| 10:35 | tomeu | my impression is that we are trying to make soas too many things at the same time |
| 10:36 | a soas tied to the latest fedora is very important for some people, and something more stable is more important for other people | |
| 10:37 | cjb | is it true that a newer Fedora is less compatible with old PCs? |
| 10:37 | JT4sugar | Lets take Gerald Ardito scenario if he was to move to Mirabelle would the fifth grade classes he's working with now not have access to the many of the activities they are presently working with? |
| 10:38 | Do we keep alive a spin that works with older PCs many schools would see this as huge plus | |
| 10:38 | tomeu | JT4sugar: we'll know that if people test activities with latest builds |
| 10:39 | but somebody needs to do that work | |
| 10:40 | SeanDaly | tomeu: the assertion is that Strawberry / Blueberry not stable and Mirabelle will be (even if hardly any Activities) |
| 10:41 | tomeu | hmm, not sure they refer to the same sense of stable |
| 10:41 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: I'm not sure any advantage for a teacher to upgrade SoaS in midyear |
| 10:41 | tomeu | but anyway, I just wanted to leave my impression, not discuss about what we should interpret from the soas team words |
| 10:42 | SeanDaly | I feel we need to place priority on resources issue |
| 10:42 | it's a blocker for many initiatives | |
| 10:42 | JT4sugar | tomeu, I understand, but the selling point of Sugar to a Teacher is all the activities that Enhance their lesson plans. Underlying platform is important but kids and teachers revolve work around activities |
| 10:42 | SeanDaly | and as growth happens we will stumble without it |
| 10:43 | tomeu | JT4sugar: sure, but the point is that work isn't done by itself, needs someone to do it |
| 10:43 | just asking for things to happen doesn't make them to happen. which should be obvious, but I'm afraid we have gotten into the habit of expecting that miracle to happen just because people did work without exposing it | |
| 10:45 | JT4sugar | tomeu, If we can come to agreement on what Mirabelle is going to be a Developer spin and recruitment release or something more. I think we can get them in the hands of Computer Science programs. But professors will want to know what you want from them. |
| 10:46 | tomeu | well, telling people what to do is work, and we need to find someone who wants to do that work and is able to |
| 10:47 | SeanDaly | I think it's clear Mirabelle is a developer-oriented version |
| 10:47 | JT4sugar: have you seen interesting work satellit has been doing with DVD SoaS creation kit? | |
| 10:50 | JT4sugar | I know because we are an Open Source project we have been guided by the scratch the itch approach which is important. Teachers and Professors work in a different world. What's the project, What do you need and then they decide if they have ability and time for it. |
| 10:51 | SeanDaly | tomeu: outreach to CS professors could result in new resources |
| 10:51 | JT4sugar | SeanDaly, Yes that is going to be very helpful to get University professors and programs involved |
| 10:51 | SeanDaly | tomeu: JT4sugar has been proposing kit for professors |
| 10:52 | tomeu | SeanDaly: sure, but would be good to have some strategy. also discuss the costs, chances of success and comapre it with other possibilities |
| 10:52 | SeanDaly | tomeu: well, open to different approach; suggestions? |
| 10:53 | tomeu | SeanDaly: suggestions for getting more resources? get deployments more involved |
| 10:53 | JT4sugar | We seem to have been reluctant to say the resources and things Sugar Labs needs. If we can identify exactly what were looking for and can figure out a way to make them semester projects(3month-much like GSOC) I'm pretty confident I can get begin to get them in Professors hands |
| 10:53 | tomeu | before asking people to use sugar and invest on it, we should ask for resources to the people who are already using sugar and investing on it |
| 10:54 | and explain them why they can invest that money in more efficient ways by working with us | |
| 10:54 | SeanDaly | tomeu: I disagree, we should have parallel approach |
| 10:54 | deployments will have OLPC-only focus, no? | |
| 10:55 | tomeu | SeanDaly: I'm ok with pursuing several strategies at the same time, my main point is that we should discuss this things |
| 10:56 | SeanDaly | tomeu: sure but we've been discussing this kit in past 3 or 4 marketing meetings too, and on SoaS list... not new |
| 10:56 | concretely, how do we recruit resources in deployments? I believe we need to fly around and meet people to do so | |
| 10:56 | JT4sugar | To get deployments more involved I think we need to start using Skype much more as a collaboration tool. Speaking to them directly will get more done in shorter period of time. Skype calls can be recorded for later playback for others to listen to. |
| 10:57 | tomeu | SeanDaly: I'm only asking for people to discuss this important issue as it deserves, I do'nt have solutions for everything |
| 10:57 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: a good suggestion, although every edu ministry person II have ever spoken to would not like their conversations to be on public Internet |
| 10:58 | tomeu: you've been calling early & often for work on resources problem & I salute you for that | |
| 10:58 | tomeu | anyway, my intention wasn't to deviate the discussion, I just felt some frustration and tried to give the other point of view |
| 10:59 | SeanDaly | in the past there was disconnect with deployments but your visit to UY, Bernie's to PY, others have brought contacts |
| 11:00 | JT4sugar's approach reflects that Sugar is meant not just for OLPC deployments | |
| 11:00 | JT4sugar | tomeu, It should absolutely be discussed and resources have consistently been a problem. We must take into account the schedules Teachers and Professors work in and bend the project to fit with them. They are our most important resources. |
| 11:00 | SeanDaly | at BNP Paribas seminar, a professor spoke with me personally about involving his 200 students in Sugar work |
| 11:01 | JT4sugar | SeanDaly, I was thinking Teachers in the classroom not Education Ministry level |
| 11:01 | tomeu | we also need to manage our community if we want to have more volunteers. right now we don't have a community manager |
| 11:01 | SeanDaly | At the end of the day he remained unconvinced I'm afraid |
| 11:01 | tomeu | SeanDaly: have meaningful work to those 200 students will be a challenge |
| 11:01 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: for OLPC deployments, more likely Edu ministry ; for non-OLPC, more likely teachers |
| 11:02 | tomeu: I'm not so sure... mchua told me she believed most Activities unmaintained for example | |
| 11:02 | OO4kids was partly done by CS students | |
| 11:02 | tomeu | SeanDaly: students don't use to be good fit for maintenance, because needs sustained presence |
| 11:03 | one thing is to do an activity, another is maintain | |
| 11:03 | it | |
| 11:03 | actually, that's why we have so many unmaintained activities | |
| 11:03 | SeanDaly | tomeu: true in the absolute, but sprints could bring us to a new baseline |
| 11:03 | tomeu | but this is the marketing meeting, this is a so important subject that we should have a team dedicated to it, with their own regular meetings |
| 11:03 | JT4sugar | tomeu, Not really. Groups of 10 students each could start from scratch approaching the Wiki and the semester contest could be who comes up with best deployment model, activity maintainer model, Teacher developemnt model, etc. |
| 11:04 | tomeu | JT4sugar: I'm a bit sceptic on that, but would be great if I was proved wrong |
| 11:04 | SeanDaly | tomeu: I fully agree, but finding a community manager is a recruitment problem |
| 11:04 | tomeu | SeanDaly: agreed, maybe we can do something for starters |
| 11:05 | actually, wanted to discuss this in the thread I started this morning | |
| 11:05 | SeanDaly | as an example, I came into the project when I came across gregdek's post saying he couldn't continue to coordinate marketing |
| 11:05 | tomeu | basically, would be great if individuals could devote 5 monthly hours to bootstrap teams |
| 11:05 | this would mean that a person would become interim team coordinator | |
| 11:06 | would hold bi-weekly meetings | |
| 11:06 | SeanDaly | tomeu: Ii saw your mail didn't have tie to resppond but I agree team coordinators a good idea |
| 11:06 | tomeu | and the first point in the agenda would always be how to find a more permanent coordinator |
| 11:06 | 5 hours per month might be something affordable for several people | |
| 11:06 | SeanDaly | well, what's profile? FLOSS project experience I imagine? |
| 11:07 | JT4sugar | tomeu, Professors are very fond of Global Service Learning Projects with real-life impact that impart real-life skills. Working with Sugar Labs does all of them. The key is the ability to ask for what exactly you need. |
| 11:07 | tomeu | SeanDaly: a bit would be great, but there are nice books that can help people get a more deep knowledge |
| 11:08 | http://producingoss.com/ http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/ | |
| 11:08 | so I don't think we should ask much more than knowing what FOSS is and having a general idea of how people work, apart from some time and passion, of course | |
| 11:08 | SeanDaly | tomeu: there's quite a steep learning curve about how a nonprofit FLOSS tech project works... i was fortunate to be briefed extensively by dfarning |
| 11:09 | tomeu | SeanDaly: well, we all learned it by doing |
| 11:09 | at least now we have books on the subject | |
| 11:09 | SeanDaly | personally, I think educator would make great profile... but that's just instinct feeling |
| 11:09 | tomeu | yeah, could be |
| 11:09 | JT4sugar | We need a real project manager-we should be looking for a retired individual with Experience in Product Development in Computer Electronics(They've made the money now want to help the World) |
| 11:10 | tomeu | but the team coordinator doesn't need to do all the work, just needs to coordinate |
| 11:10 | don't even think that the coordinator needs to be the expert | |
| 11:10 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: a good comment, I remember being very impressed with Tony A of OLE Nepal who fits that profile |
| 11:11 | JT4sugar | Their the ones with time on their hands along with extensive networks to leverage |
| 11:13 | tomeu, On the bi-weekly meetings are they meeting with all other Team Leaders? | |
| 11:13 | SeanDaly | tomeu: what do you think of that profile? We could try to contact retirees networks? |
| 11:14 | tomeu | JT4sugar: no, just meeting of people interested on that work area |
| 11:14 | SeanDaly: sounds good to me | |
| 11:15 | at some point we should discuss more in depth how we envision the work of teams in SLs, to give some common ground | |
| 11:15 | SeanDaly | tomeu: 5 hours/month, needs to learn IRC? |
| 11:15 | had never IRCed before SL | |
| 11:15 | tomeu | SeanDaly: hmm, for the community team I think irc is important |
| 11:16 | but well, I think the important part is to get started | |
| 11:16 | SeanDaly | tomeu: I agree... maybe "needs to type fast" is criteria :D |
| 11:17 | tomeu | heh |
| 11:18 | JT4sugar | tomeu, From a practical view for Geralds deployment when going into next school year starting in August what SoaS version should he be running that includes many working activities. I believe if we approach right you can have classes who are running older versions, have days when they are testing new versions and reporting back differences problems |
| 11:18 | tomeu | IMO, the baseline for teams would be: regular meetings with agenda, minutes and log sent to the ML, updated wiki page with TODO list, mission, members |
| 11:18 | JT4sugar: yeah, mchua_afk is working on that, AFAIK | |
| 11:19 | SeanDaly | tomeu: I am still very basic wiki editor, has taken lots of determination to fight with it to get things done |
| 11:20 | in FLOSS projects there'a always lots of emphasis on tools | |
| 11:20 | tomeu | I'm also quite basic, but keeping such a page updated might not be so hard |
| 11:20 | we have already templates for other teams | |
| 11:21 | SeanDaly | mchua helped me wikify things in the beginning |
| 11:21 | tomeu | yeah, she's a wiki master |
| 11:21 | perhaps the coordinator can delegate updating the wiki, but not sure it's worth it | |
| 11:25 | SeanDaly | tomeu: usual problem, need someone |
| 11:26 | JT4sugar | Tomeu; Is their a way you can put together are most pressing Technical needs and the resources you believe would need to come to the table to solve them. With that understanding my belief is that we can begin to outsource these as projects to Professors. Being from Detroit, MI(Motor City)we know alot about outsourcingl |
| 11:26 | tomeu | hmm |
| 11:27 | my number 1 resources issue is module maintenance | |
| 11:27 | SeanDaly | tomeu: for example for many months now I have wished to build marketing team with a professor + class; just haven't prioritized it. But I have no doubt I can find. And if temporary, no problem - a lot can be doone in a sprint |
| 11:27 | tomeu: how would you describe a module? | |
| 11:28 | tomeu | IMO this work should be done by developers employed by those deploying sugar |
| 11:29 | SeanDaly: are blocks that compose a software system. the granularity should be such that a 1-3 people can take the reponsibility of maintaining it | |
| 11:29 | maintenance is making releases, adding features (could be coded by others), ensuring that quality increases, etc | |
| 11:30 | SeanDaly | tomeu: are specific to Sugar? and no difference between deployments? |
| 11:30 | tomeu | SeanDaly: what are to be specific to sugar? |
| 11:32 | SeanDaly | modules |
| 11:33 | tomeu | so, the modules we are looking maintainers for, are most of them specific to sugar |
| 11:33 | and all are used by all deployments, except the non-core activities | |
| 11:34 | SeanDaly | ok I understand better |
| 11:35 | JT4sugar | tomeu, Yes but if we want more deployments we must go where Teachers and School Administors are trained and go for Professional Development-University. Then connect School of Education people with Comp Sci people. |
| 11:35 | tomeu | JT4sugar: frankly, I'm more worried right now about sugar having maintainers in 6 months, than about growing our user base |
| 11:36 | SeanDaly | well, taking tomeu's idea a step further, how do we sell existing deployments on maintaining Sugar modules? that they share some? that we recommend which they should do? |
| 11:36 | tomeu | because if we don't have a FOSS project by then, there won't be new releases our users can update to |
| 11:36 | SeanDaly | tomeu: our user base is growing & will continue to do so and the first non-OLPC OEM deal will submerge us in a tsunami |
| 11:37 | tomeu | SeanDaly: first, we need to get them to fix bugs. nobody will be a good maintainer if hasn't been a good bug fixer before |
| 11:37 | SeanDaly | tomeu: sure, but my question is, what is the selling point? |
| 11:38 | tomeu | SeanDaly: some deployments are putting their employees to work on sugar with us |
| 11:38 | SeanDaly: our volunteer maintainers work with them so their changes are integrated | |
| 11:38 | JT4sugar | My approach would be to call and ask them directly how we can get them involved, what are the constraints, why aren't they presently, how can we make it easier for them, do we have a Bug-fixing Tutorial? |
| 11:39 | tomeu | SeanDaly: we need to explain that so their employees can do their job of submitting new features, there need to be maintainers |
| 11:39 | SeanDaly | tomeu: ok, but you are saying we need more, and II am asking: how do we ask deployments which are not yet contributing? |
| 11:39 | tomeu | SeanDaly: they may think now that they can send patches and that's all. we need to educate them and explain the whole game |
| 11:39 | SeanDaly: I would focus first on the ones that are contributing | |
| 11:39 | those already see the need for them to do a step further | |
| 11:39 | SeanDaly | tomeu: you mean, ask them for more resources? |
| 11:40 | tomeu | SeanDaly: ask them to take other tasks, not just sending patches |
| 11:40 | SeanDaly | I'm wondering how we can get deployments on board without a face-to-face sales pitch |
| 11:40 | (or even Skype sales pitch) | |
| 11:41 | tomeu | SeanDaly: I think we can do it, but would prefer to discuss it in the ml, so we get more people on the loop |
| 11:41 | we have lots of capacity, we are just wasting it because we aren't dedicating enough of our collective neurons to the subject | |
| 11:41 | JT4sugar | Since I'm not a developer I know I can't make these tutorials and it sounds like I'm asking for more. But can we make a Bug-fixing Tutorial, A maintainer Tutorial, A new feature tutorial? |
| 11:41 | SeanDaly | tomeu: by all means |
| 11:42 | JT4sugar: an Executive Summary wouldn't hurt either ;-) | |
| 11:42 | tomeu | JT4sugar: we can do that and lots of other things, but we need to organize ourselves ;) |
| 11:43 | SeanDaly | a key factor is to have someone waiting at the door to greet newcomers and get them to work... tomeu if i understand you correctly that's a community manager role? |
| 11:43 | tomeu | well, I'm a bit more into coordinators rather than managers |
| 11:44 | in my view of things, the community team would decide who would take that role | |
| 11:44 | a community manager may be more effective if it was a full-time job | |
| 11:45 | but the most important thing is that tasks are visible and have owners | |
| 11:45 | or don't have owners, but people have that present | |
| 11:46 | JT4sugar | Making Tutorials for these key issues is organization because it saves future time and resources that can be put to other things. Also gives newcomers very easy way to start and not get confused in the wiki. From all reports I have from Teachers and Professors who have gone to wiki is its quite daunting for the less-tech user |
| 11:47 | tomeu | JT4sugar: agreed, so we need to get someone to get someone to do them ;) |
| 11:47 | SeanDaly | The wiki is perfectly incomprehensible spaghetti |
| 11:47 | JT4sugar | tomeu, will you be at April get together in Boston? |
| 11:47 | tomeu | yup, arrive on 12th, leave on 20th |
| 11:47 | SeanDaly | Most people I meet at conferences who have visited site describe getting lost in wiki |
| 11:48 | JT4sugar | I agree, but those must come from Sugar Labs most technical, I wish I was one of them! |
| 11:48 | tomeu | JT4sugar: writing them needs technical knowledge, but finding someone to write them not |
| 11:51 | JT4sugar | tomeu, It would seem that screenshots with an Audio walk through of steps would be big step forward. |
| 11:51 | tomeu | yup, sounds cool |
| 11:52 | SeanDaly | I've been going nuts for months trying to get working screencam software to do Sugar videos |
| 11:53 | the technical expertise required is mind-boggling | |
| 11:53 | I might just buy a commercial package | |
| 11:53 | tomeu | walterbender's instructions didn't worked? |
| 11:54 | SeanDaly | had some briefly working in Bolzano, but broke "xephyr" and hasn't worked since |
| 11:54 | JT4sugar | tomeu, How do we approach the right Technical Sugar Labers to do these few Tutorials? |
| 11:55 | tomeu | JT4sugar: wish I knew :) a first step may be finding a (possibly interim) community team coordinator to organize meetings where people can discuss this and other similar subjects |
| 11:56 | JT4sugar | tomeu, I apologize for asking for things I cannot technically do myself but see them as important to grow our resource base |
| 11:56 | tomeu | I don't think we should expect the marketing team to solve all our challenges :p |
| 11:57 | jt4sugar: don't think there's any problem in individuals raising interesting todo items | |
| 11:58 | what worries me is finding people to actually do what is important | |
| 11:58 | SeanDaly | tomeu: marketers always have a terrible time of it in FLOSS projects, as "noncoders" there will always be some who imply we don't even do work |
| 11:58 | tomeu | and also keeping critical areas resourced |
| 11:58 | JT4sugar | tomeu, I'm sure you will be doing alot of hacking while in Boston, can we try to make a point of trying to put a few tutorials together while many are in one place. |
| 11:58 | tomeu | SeanDaly: well, I really hope SLs is different |
| 12:00 | jt4sugar: not sure, we really need to get better at finding other people to take work items. it just doesn't scale having the same few people doing everything | |
| 12:00 | SeanDaly | tomeu: a little different, but not much I'm afraid, I have to spend quite a lot of time explaining very basic marketing concepts :-( |
| 12:00 | tomeu | SeanDaly: that's because you let coders infiltrate in your meetings ;) |
| 12:01 | JT4sugar | Even if just got a Bug-Tracker Tutorial done that would be huge on ramp tool and hopefully lead to the new resources we need |
| 12:01 | tomeu | SeanDaly: I think we should find a way to make each team more independent, so each can do things their way as they best know |
| 12:01 | SeanDaly | tomeu: :D :D |
| 12:02 | tomeu: hmm yes and no I have a consistent problem with the SoaS team which makes decisions without checking with marketing, makes marketing decisions without checking with marketing... what I need there is working more closely together, not isolated | |
| 12:03 | JT4sugar | Focusing our present resources for a short-time on the "How To" Tutorials will lead to freeing up present developers and the tools to get new ones |
| 12:03 | tomeu | well, I think you need a soas spin more closely associated to your efforts, but that may not be the only soas spin |
| 12:03 | SeanDaly | tomeu: in fact it's the exact inverse of for-profit tech, where marketing often runs the show and engineers have to run around to keep up; both models are poor |
| 12:03 | cjb | SeanDaly: maybe marketing should have its own SoaS spin or something? |
| 12:04 | tomeu | cjb: that's my idea! |
| 12:04 | cjb | oh :) |
| 12:04 | SeanDaly | tomeu, cjb: I have a word for you: iPod |
| 12:04 | tomeu | hehe |
| 12:04 | SeanDaly | very clear what it is & what it does |
| 12:04 | that's because of great marketing | |
| 12:04 | cjb | and how many millions of dollars were spent in creating it |
| 12:05 | SeanDaly | in reality, is 4 product lines, each with technical variants, not to mention colors |
| 12:05 | cjb | anyway, I agree that when we say "SoaS" it should be obvious what it is |
| 12:05 | tomeu | has to run |
| 12:05 | SeanDaly | cjb: of course, which is why we need to be just as smart or smarter :D |
| 12:05 | cjb | what I'm suggesting, I guess, is that the obvious meaning could technically be the marketing spin |
| 12:05 | and a non-obvious meaning could be the base spin that the eng team release | |
| 12:06 | SeanDaly | cjb: that would be my point of view, but the way things have gone next SoaS is not marketable that way, we have to skip it |
| 12:06 | media campaign I mean | |
| 12:06 | cjb | I don't think skipping it helps |
| 12:06 | it's not like the team is saying "we want to change things for just one release" | |
| 12:07 | it's a more fundamental change than that. they want people like you to create spins that are tested and used by deployments, while they concentrate on the core technology. | |
| 12:07 | JT4sugar | cjb, Both spins into classroom with the right message for each is the key-One for testing-One for present usability |
| 12:07 | cjb | (or at least that's how I think the proposal went) |
| 12:07 | SeanDaly | cjb: oh yes it is, unfortunately |
| 12:07 | it's a sound engineering approach, which wrecks the marketing | |
| 12:08 | Sure we can position it as a maintenance, deployer, developer release, but that's not news & won't grow, no ral point in talking about it | |
| 12:08 | cjb | I don't think it has to wreck the marketing; there just needs to be a spin with the activities included |
| 12:08 | and when you do the SoaS v3 marketing launch, make it refer to that spin | |
| 12:09 | SeanDaly | cjb: mchua's last proposal was to offer custom spin service, which I can't believe is scalable in a PR launch |
| 12:09 | JT4sugar | I think you can effectively do both if you attach the correct message to each SoaS spin and explain exactly what they're for. One is for Future the R&D Sugar Spin |
| 12:10 | cjb | SeanDaly: I don't understand why not. We don't have to make our users make the spin. We can make it for them. |
| 12:10 | But "we" isn't going to be the core SoaS team anymore. | |
| 12:10 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: the problem is fragmentation... we've carefully built up values (promises) in SoaS, most of which Mirabelle back off from |
| 12:10 | cjb | That's okay. It just means you have to find someone else to make it. |
| 12:11 | SeanDaly | cjb: that's not all, there's tthe numbering issue |
| 12:11 | I came up with the beta-1, v1, v2 numbering for marketing reasons, and it got results | |
| 12:12 | JT4sugar | SeanDaly, Everyone will understand we are working on future versions. If it was me I would give Teacher two sticks-Present day usable and Future R&D, we would like you to work with both |
| 12:12 | SeanDaly | There is no way I can say "this is a specific spin of SoaS v3 over Fedora 13" |
| 12:12 | cjb | SeanDaly: have you considered just telling the SoaS team that you want to reserve SoaS 3 for the spin that does contain more activities? |
| 12:12 | I think they might be okay with that | |
| 12:12 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar:at conferences and presentations, easy to explain (I even demo Strawberry if low on sticks) |
| 12:13 | JT4sugar | Can we ask for Mirabelle to be 2.5? |
| 12:13 | SeanDaly | cjb: no, there was a strong reaction against that suggestion |
| 12:13 | cjb | oh :/ |
| 12:13 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: was exactly my suggestion, strongly rejected |
| 12:13 | cjb | it seems like product numbering should be controlled by marketing |
| 12:14 | let the SoaS team build it, and marketing figure out how to sell it | |
| 12:14 | SeanDaly | So I have no choice but to cancel a media launch. No big deal, we have other stuff in the pipeline. But numbering messed up as a result |
| 12:15 | JT4sugar | I think two-fold approach gets us around issue and helps Teachers and others feel part of the Future Sugar while using a present version. Allows Teachers and students compare and contrast. if working activity in Strawberry but not in Mirabelle would be easy to point out and report |
| 12:15 | SeanDaly | Building an effective brand means: limiiting confusion as much as possible |
| 12:16 | JT4sugar: two-fold is already a level of detail... marketing message whould be SoaS and its benefits; website can explain which version is best for needs | |
| 12:17 | teacher casually interested wants to know more: latest stable release with Activities | |
| 12:18 | school IT admin, or geeky teacher, interested in deployment: bare spin ready for customizing | |
| 12:18 | JT4sugar | If I was to send out package I would send two sticks to teachers or professors I would position as Sugar Today-Sugar Tomorrow with explanation for each. Strawberry/Mirabelle |
| 12:19 | SeanDaly | Put another way: our existing PR should show a clear roadmap |
| 12:19 | Current SoaS approach deviates from that roadmap, is problematic | |
| 12:21 | needs to sign off soon | |
| 12:22 | JT4sugar | With these new developments the roadmap needs to show both. Development versions will always be out ahead of what is in deployments. Key is to have deployments spend a few days here and there with Development Spin. |
| 12:23 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: in my view development spin not worth talking about unless large number of deployments (i.e. realworld impact) |
| 12:24 | JT4sugar: would be different if we had advertising budget | |
| 12:25 | JT4sugar | Development spin should be talked up in Tech Blogs |
| 12:26 | SeanDaly | we could develop sales points for each version, in the jargon "segmenting our offer" although base benefits promises would be identical |
| 12:26 | JT4sugar: sure and it's totally natural there be a dev-oriented spin; as I say, sound engineering | |
| 12:27 | but crossing off the e-readers after our last PR put emphasis on e-readers... sigh | |
| 12:28 | JT4sugar | Understanding that the Spins are for very different purposes and working from there would seem to be best. End result and goal the same but present day approach to each is different |
| 12:30 | In a PR release you concentrate on SoaS Spin for marketing with many activities and add in a line: For you developers out there help us with the Future of Sugar download Mirabelle | |
| 12:30 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: thatt's true but complicated... think "iPod"... all the details about which one to choose are secondary... our PR/marketing needs to do star-product on the one most likely to be easy to try for teachers |
| 12:31 | JT4sugar: I suggested the v1, v2 numbering, and later the ice-cream flavors, to make marketing easy; SoaS team view is developer version is v3 Mirabelle, and everything else is a "spin"... this engineer-centric approach is problematic for marketing | |
| 12:32 | it should be the other way round: v3 Mirabelle should be the continuation of v1 Strawberry and v2 Blueberry, even if technically speaking it's a "spin" of a developer version | |
| 12:33 | cjb | SeanDaly: just refuse to adopt that approach when marketing it :) |
| 12:33 | SeanDaly | but with the Activities out not even that is possible |
| 12:34 | cjb: that will fly like a lead zeppelin, if you think I haven't tried | |
| 12:35 | JT4sugar | So sounds like two track SoaS Classroom(Ice Cream flavors) Soas Developer(Mirabelle and other names) Classroom SoaS will always lag cutting edge developer version-that's just a fact of the software business |
| 12:35 | cjb | yeah. I guess I'm just offering my support for the idea, for what it's worth |
| 12:35 | we shouldn't be telling you how to do PR campaigns | |
| 12:35 | SeanDaly | I have tried to communicate to mchua and sdz importance of working closely together, as opposed to "SoaS Engineering has some announcements to make" |
| 12:36 | cjb | well |
| 12:36 | SeanDaly | This already happened with the beta-1 (formerly known as SoaS-1) |
| 12:36 | cjb | I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with SoaS Engineering making decisions like that. I just think they should be separate from the SoaS marketing decisions. |
| 12:37 | SeanDaly | cjb: can't be both at the same time ;-) |
| 12:37 | JT4sugar | My advice is to have two marketing campaigns because each SoaS Spin really has two different audiences-One Teachers-Students for learning now Other is Future of Sugar-developer and Highly tech-teacher oriented |
| 12:38 | cjb | I don't think you even need a marketing campaign for the developer spin |
| 12:38 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: think iPod.. doing so will be confusing... message needs to be crystal clear |
| 12:38 | cjb | developers don't respond to "marketing", like press releases, generally |
| 12:38 | SeanDaly | cjb: most Sugar developers don't even read SL PR :D |
| 12:38 | cjb | exactly ;-) |
| 12:38 | so that's why I think this is a non-issue | |
| 12:39 | SoaS Engineering will make their own spin, but that won't make it to the outside world | |
| 12:39 | what will make it to the outside world is what the marketing team does | |
| 12:39 | SeanDaly | well, a non-media campaign is a nonissue, for sure :-( |
| 12:39 | cjb | that can be their spin, or another spin, and it can be called whatever you want it to be called |
| 12:39 | anyway, my $.02. back to work now :) | |
| 12:40 | JT4sugar | Think of it this way i would give College of education professors strawberry while I would give Computer Science Professors Mirabelle-you still need message for each |
| 12:40 | SeanDaly | need to sign off... endmeeting going once... |
| 12:41 | JT4sugar: that's fine for direct-mail marketing, for PR we need crystal clear offer, benefits, name, download location | |
| 12:41 | with Activities | |
| 12:42 | cjb | yeah, agreed |
| 12:42 | JT4sugar | Then I would only promote Mirabelle through Tech blogs and other Tech related offerings |
| 12:42 | SeanDaly | JT4sugar: quite... as II say, no media campaign |
| 12:43 | but I continue to press for v3 reserved for next media campaign | |
| 12:43 | JT4sugar | No media campaign but a developer recruitment campaign with Mirabelle |
| 12:44 | SeanDaly | Yes, that's my idea, resources issue has become critical |
| 12:44 | signoff going twice.... | |
| 12:45 | thanks JT4sugar, tomeu, cjb | |
| 12:45 | JT4sugar | Thanks All! |
| 12:45 | SeanDaly | #endmeeting |