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#sugar-meeting, 2010-03-30

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Time Nick Message
10:11 bernie lurks
10:11 SeanDaly I'm so behind, I haven't posted logs of past 3 meetings to wiki
10:11 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Can you send me the meeting notes from last week, need info from before I joined
10:11 SeanDaly and haven't arranged travel to Boston yet
10:12 JT4sugar What days are you planning to be there?
10:12 SeanDaly JT4sugar: yes but will take me a few minutes on another non-Internet computer
10:12 JT4sugar Thanks
10:12 SeanDaly April 11-12-13 or thereabouts
10:13 if I can find a decent ticket
10:13 and if I can afford it ii want to go to Miami too
10:13 JT4sugar Let me know I may try to join
10:14 SeanDaly would be fantastic, tomeu will be in Boston from 12th I believe for Gnome hackfest, idea is to have SLOBs & contribs around a table to discuss in particular trademark issues
10:15 in Miami i would like to meet Rodrigo and discuss joint PR with OLPC-A
10:15 JT4sugar That would be very helpful if you can put it together
10:15 SeanDaly as I say not at all sure what I can afford for flights + hotels and II don't want to use too many vacation days either
10:16 I've fallen way behind in things needing to get done and I feel a trip will help me concentrate & catch up without work/home constraints
10:18 JT4sugar Ask your company to give you the days and pay for it as their contribution to "Learning in the World" Can't hurt to ask. Have them get a local write up about your trip
10:21 SeanDaly in fact the company foundation has just had a reorg, tried to reach new education person a month ago, no response will try again
10:24 JT4sugar What are the key items for today?
10:25 SeanDaly I'm very concerned about SoaS situation
10:25 it is being re-engineered for stability, which is fine, but the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, it won't be suitable as a teacher demo
10:26 no sweat since we don't have media commitments, but this derails PR momentum
10:28 JT4sugar Not if we position it as the future of Sugar and approach Developers and Teachers(Tech oriented) with it as an R&D project. Also give them known working SoaS version with many activities. We will always have lag between cutting edge and classroom usable
10:28 SeanDaly SoaS version numbers - originally my idea as marketing comm - v1, v2 - now a problem since engineers don't want to do a step number and we will miss PR-friendly v3 release
10:29 We can certainly continue recommending Blueberry for demos, and Mirabelle for deployments (the whole handful of them)
10:31 JT4sugar The question with Mirabelle for deployments beyond testing is if enough activities are not running correctly I would much rather have a classroom with Strawberry where activities are working
10:32 We must seperate out ability to work in class now versus we are testing this for the future. I think they are two different scenarios.
10:33 SeanDaly i question the gluing of SoaS to latest greatest Fedora, my concern is we are galloping ahead and losing compatibility with old PCs, one of our key promises
10:34 on phone
10:35 tomeu my impression is that we are trying to make soas too many things at the same time
10:36 a soas tied to the latest fedora is very important for some people, and something more stable is more important for other people
10:37 cjb is it true that a newer Fedora is less compatible with old PCs?
10:37 JT4sugar Lets take Gerald Ardito scenario if he was to move to Mirabelle would the fifth grade classes he's working with now not have access to the many of the activities they are presently working with?
10:38 Do we keep alive a spin that works with older PCs many schools would see this as huge plus
10:38 tomeu JT4sugar: we'll know that if people test activities with latest builds
10:39 but somebody needs to do that work
10:40 SeanDaly tomeu: the assertion is that Strawberry / Blueberry not stable and Mirabelle will be (even if hardly any Activities)
10:41 tomeu hmm, not sure they refer to the same sense of stable
10:41 SeanDaly JT4sugar: I'm not sure any advantage for a teacher to upgrade SoaS in midyear
10:41 tomeu but anyway, I just wanted to leave my impression, not discuss about what we should interpret from the soas team words
10:42 SeanDaly I feel we need to place priority on resources issue
10:42 it's a blocker for many initiatives
10:42 JT4sugar tomeu, I understand, but the selling point of Sugar to a Teacher is all the activities that Enhance their lesson plans. Underlying platform is important but kids and teachers revolve work around activities
10:42 SeanDaly and as growth happens we will stumble without it
10:43 tomeu JT4sugar: sure, but the point is that work isn't done by itself, needs someone to do it
10:43 just asking for things to happen doesn't make them to happen. which should be obvious, but I'm afraid we have gotten into the habit of expecting that miracle to happen just because people did work without exposing it
10:45 JT4sugar tomeu, If we can come to agreement on what Mirabelle is going to be a Developer spin and recruitment release or something more. I think we can get them in the hands of Computer Science programs. But professors will want to know what you want from them.
10:46 tomeu well, telling people what to do is work, and we need to find someone who wants to do that work and is able to
10:47 SeanDaly I think it's clear Mirabelle is a developer-oriented version
10:47 JT4sugar: have you seen interesting work satellit has been doing with DVD SoaS creation kit?
10:50 JT4sugar I know because we are an Open Source project we have been guided by the scratch the itch approach which is important. Teachers and Professors work in a different world. What's the project, What  do you need and then they decide if they have ability and time for it.
10:51 SeanDaly tomeu: outreach to CS professors could result in new resources
10:51 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Yes that is going to be very helpful to get University professors and programs involved
10:51 SeanDaly tomeu: JT4sugar has been proposing kit for professors
10:52 tomeu SeanDaly: sure, but would be good to have some strategy. also discuss the costs, chances of success and comapre it with other possibilities
10:52 SeanDaly tomeu: well, open to different approach; suggestions?
10:53 tomeu SeanDaly: suggestions for getting more resources? get deployments more involved
10:53 JT4sugar We seem to have been reluctant to say the resources and things Sugar Labs needs. If we can identify exactly what were looking for and can figure out a way to make them semester projects(3month-much like GSOC) I'm pretty confident I can get begin to get them in Professors hands
10:53 tomeu before asking people to use sugar and invest on it, we should ask for resources to the people who are already using sugar and investing on it
10:54 and explain them why they can invest that money in more efficient ways by working with us
10:54 SeanDaly tomeu: I disagree, we should have parallel approach
10:54 deployments will have OLPC-only focus, no?
10:55 tomeu SeanDaly: I'm ok with pursuing several strategies at the same time, my main point is that we should discuss this things
10:56 SeanDaly tomeu: sure but we've been discussing this kit in past 3 or 4 marketing meetings too, and on SoaS list... not new
10:56 concretely, how do we recruit resources in deployments? I believe we need to fly around and meet people to do so
10:56 JT4sugar To get deployments more involved I think we need to start using Skype much more as a collaboration tool. Speaking to them directly will get more done in shorter period of time. Skype calls can be recorded for later playback for others to listen to.
10:57 tomeu SeanDaly: I'm only asking for people to discuss this important issue as it deserves, I do'nt have solutions for everything
10:57 SeanDaly JT4sugar: a good suggestion, although every edu ministry person II have ever spoken to would not like their conversations to be on public Internet
10:58 tomeu: you've been calling early & often for work on resources problem & I salute you for that
10:58 tomeu anyway, my intention wasn't to deviate the discussion, I just felt some frustration and tried to give the other point of view
10:59 SeanDaly in the past there was disconnect with deployments but your visit to UY, Bernie's to PY, others have brought contacts
11:00 JT4sugar's approach reflects that Sugar is meant not just for OLPC deployments
11:00 JT4sugar tomeu, It should absolutely be discussed and resources have consistently been a problem. We must take into account the schedules Teachers and Professors work in and bend the project to fit with them. They are our most important resources.
11:00 SeanDaly at BNP Paribas seminar, a professor spoke with me personally about involving his 200 students in Sugar work
11:01 JT4sugar SeanDaly, I was thinking Teachers in the classroom not Education Ministry level
11:01 tomeu we also need to manage our community if we want to have more volunteers. right now we don't have a community manager
11:01 SeanDaly At the end of the day he remained unconvinced I'm afraid
11:01 tomeu SeanDaly: have meaningful work to those 200 students will be a challenge
11:01 SeanDaly JT4sugar: for OLPC deployments, more likely Edu ministry ; for non-OLPC, more likely teachers
11:02 tomeu: I'm not so sure... mchua told me she believed most Activities unmaintained for example
11:02 OO4kids was partly done by CS students
11:02 tomeu SeanDaly: students don't use to be good fit for maintenance, because needs sustained presence
11:03 one thing is to do an activity, another is maintain
11:03 it
11:03 actually, that's why we have so many unmaintained activities
11:03 SeanDaly tomeu: true in the absolute, but sprints could bring us to a new baseline
11:03 tomeu but this is the marketing meeting, this is a so important subject that we should have a team dedicated to it, with their own regular meetings
11:03 JT4sugar tomeu, Not really. Groups of 10 students each could start from scratch approaching the Wiki and the semester contest could be who comes up with best deployment model, activity maintainer model, Teacher developemnt model, etc.
11:04 tomeu JT4sugar: I'm a bit sceptic on that, but would be great if I was proved wrong
11:04 SeanDaly tomeu: I fully agree, but finding a community manager is a recruitment problem
11:04 tomeu SeanDaly: agreed, maybe we can do something for starters
11:05 actually, wanted to discuss this in the thread I started this morning
11:05 SeanDaly as an example, I came into the project when I came across gregdek's post saying he couldn't continue to coordinate marketing
11:05 tomeu basically, would be great if individuals could devote 5 monthly hours to bootstrap teams
11:05 this would mean that a person would become interim team coordinator
11:06 would hold bi-weekly meetings
11:06 SeanDaly tomeu: Ii saw your mail didn't have tie to resppond but I agree team coordinators a good idea
11:06 tomeu and the first point in the agenda would always be how to find a more permanent coordinator
11:06 5 hours per month might be something affordable for several people
11:06 SeanDaly well, what's profile? FLOSS project experience I imagine?
11:07 JT4sugar tomeu, Professors are very fond of Global Service Learning Projects with real-life impact that impart real-life skills. Working with Sugar Labs does all of them. The key is the ability to ask for what exactly you need.
11:07 tomeu SeanDaly: a bit would be great, but there are nice books that can help people get a more deep knowledge
11:08 http://producingoss.com/ http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/
11:08 so I don't think we should ask much more than knowing what FOSS is and having a general idea of how people work, apart from some time and passion, of course
11:08 SeanDaly tomeu: there's quite a steep learning curve about how a nonprofit FLOSS tech project works... i was fortunate to be briefed extensively by dfarning
11:09 tomeu SeanDaly: well, we all learned it by doing
11:09 at least now we have books on the subject
11:09 SeanDaly personally, I think educator would make great profile... but that's just instinct feeling
11:09 tomeu yeah, could be
11:09 JT4sugar We need a real project manager-we should be looking for a retired individual with Experience in Product Development in Computer Electronics(They've made the money now want to help the World)
11:10 tomeu but the team coordinator doesn't need to do all the work, just needs to coordinate
11:10 don't even think that the coordinator needs to be the expert
11:10 SeanDaly JT4sugar: a good comment, I remember being very impressed with Tony A of OLE Nepal who fits that profile
11:11 JT4sugar Their the ones with time on their hands along with extensive networks to leverage
11:13 tomeu, On the bi-weekly meetings are they meeting with all other Team Leaders?
11:13 SeanDaly tomeu: what do you think of that profile? We could try to contact retirees networks?
11:14 tomeu JT4sugar: no, just meeting of people interested on that work area
11:14 SeanDaly: sounds good to me
11:15 at some point we should discuss more in depth how we envision the work of teams in SLs, to give some common ground
11:15 SeanDaly tomeu: 5 hours/month, needs to learn IRC?
11:15 had never IRCed before SL
11:15 tomeu SeanDaly: hmm, for the community team I think irc is important
11:16 but well, I think the important part is to get started
11:16 SeanDaly tomeu: I agree... maybe "needs to type fast" is criteria :D
11:17 tomeu heh
11:18 JT4sugar tomeu, From a practical view for Geralds deployment when going into next school year starting in August what SoaS version should he be running that includes many working activities. I believe if we approach right you can have classes who are running older versions, have days when they are testing new versions and reporting back differences problems
11:18 tomeu IMO, the baseline for teams would be: regular meetings with agenda, minutes and log sent to the ML, updated wiki page with TODO list, mission, members
11:18 JT4sugar: yeah, mchua_afk is working on that, AFAIK
11:19 SeanDaly tomeu: I am still very basic wiki editor, has taken lots of determination to fight with it to get things done
11:20 in FLOSS projects there'a always lots of emphasis on tools
11:20 tomeu I'm also quite basic, but keeping such a page updated might not be so hard
11:20 we have already templates for other teams
11:21 SeanDaly mchua helped me wikify things in the beginning
11:21 tomeu yeah, she's a wiki master
11:21 perhaps the coordinator can delegate updating the wiki, but not sure it's worth it
11:25 SeanDaly tomeu: usual problem, need someone
11:26 JT4sugar Tomeu; Is their a way you can put together are most pressing Technical needs and the resources you believe would need to come to the table to solve them. With that understanding my belief is that we can begin to outsource these as projects to Professors. Being from Detroit, MI(Motor City)we know alot about outsourcingl
11:26 tomeu hmm
11:27 my number 1 resources issue is module maintenance
11:27 SeanDaly tomeu: for example for many months now I have wished to build marketing team with a professor + class; just haven't prioritized it. But I have no doubt I can find. And if temporary, no problem - a lot can be doone in a sprint
11:27 tomeu: how would you describe a module?
11:28 tomeu IMO this work should be done by developers employed by those deploying sugar
11:29 SeanDaly: are blocks that compose a software system. the granularity should be such that a 1-3 people can take the reponsibility of maintaining it
11:29 maintenance is making releases, adding features (could be coded by others), ensuring that quality increases, etc
11:30 SeanDaly tomeu: are specific to Sugar? and no difference between deployments?
11:30 tomeu SeanDaly: what are to be specific to sugar?
11:32 SeanDaly modules
11:33 tomeu so, the modules we are looking maintainers for, are most of them specific to sugar
11:33 and all are used by all deployments, except the non-core activities
11:34 SeanDaly ok I understand better
11:35 JT4sugar tomeu, Yes but if we want more deployments we must go where Teachers and School Administors are trained and go for Professional Development-University. Then connect School of Education people with Comp Sci people.
11:35 tomeu JT4sugar: frankly, I'm more worried right now about sugar having maintainers in 6 months, than about growing our user base
11:36 SeanDaly well, taking tomeu's idea a step further, how do we sell existing deployments on maintaining Sugar modules? that they share some? that we recommend which they should do?
11:36 tomeu because if we don't have a FOSS project by then, there won't be new releases our users can update to
11:36 SeanDaly tomeu: our user base is growing & will continue to do so and the first non-OLPC OEM deal will submerge us in a tsunami
11:37 tomeu SeanDaly: first, we need to get them to fix bugs. nobody will be a good maintainer if hasn't been a good bug fixer before
11:37 SeanDaly tomeu: sure, but my question is, what is the selling point?
11:38 tomeu SeanDaly: some deployments are putting their employees to work on sugar with us
11:38 SeanDaly: our volunteer maintainers work with them so their changes are integrated
11:38 JT4sugar My approach would be to call and ask them directly how we can get them involved, what are the constraints, why aren't they presently, how can we make it easier for them, do we have a Bug-fixing Tutorial?
11:39 tomeu SeanDaly: we need to explain that so their employees can do their job of submitting new features, there need to be maintainers
11:39 SeanDaly tomeu: ok, but you are saying we need more, and II am asking: how do we ask deployments which are not yet contributing?
11:39 tomeu SeanDaly: they may think now that they can send patches and that's all. we need to educate them and explain the whole game
11:39 SeanDaly: I would focus first on the ones that are contributing
11:39 those already see the need for them to do a step further
11:39 SeanDaly tomeu: you mean, ask them for more resources?
11:40 tomeu SeanDaly: ask them to take other tasks, not just sending patches
11:40 SeanDaly I'm wondering how we can get deployments on board without a face-to-face sales pitch
11:40 (or even Skype sales pitch)
11:41 tomeu SeanDaly: I think we can do it, but would prefer to discuss it in the ml, so we get more people on the loop
11:41 we have lots of capacity, we are just wasting it because we aren't dedicating enough of our collective neurons to the subject
11:41 JT4sugar Since I'm not a developer I know I can't make these tutorials and it sounds like I'm asking for more. But can we make a Bug-fixing Tutorial, A maintainer Tutorial, A new feature tutorial?
11:41 SeanDaly tomeu: by all means
11:42 JT4sugar: an Executive Summary wouldn't hurt either ;-)
11:42 tomeu JT4sugar: we can do that and lots of other things, but we need to organize ourselves ;)
11:43 SeanDaly a key factor is to have someone waiting at the door to greet newcomers and get them to work... tomeu if i understand you correctly that's a community manager role?
11:43 tomeu well, I'm a bit more into coordinators rather than managers
11:44 in my view of things, the community team would decide who would take that role
11:44 a community manager may be more effective if it was a full-time job
11:45 but the most important thing is that tasks are visible and have owners
11:45 or don't have owners, but people have that present
11:46 JT4sugar Making Tutorials for these key issues is organization because it saves future time and resources that can be put to other things. Also gives newcomers very easy way to start and not get confused in the wiki. From all reports I have from Teachers and Professors who have gone to wiki is its quite daunting for the less-tech user
11:47 tomeu JT4sugar: agreed, so we need to get someone to get someone to do them ;)
11:47 SeanDaly The wiki is perfectly incomprehensible spaghetti
11:47 JT4sugar tomeu, will you be at April get together in Boston?
11:47 tomeu yup, arrive on 12th, leave on 20th
11:47 SeanDaly Most people I meet at conferences who have visited site describe getting lost in wiki
11:48 JT4sugar I agree, but those must come from Sugar Labs most technical, I wish I was one of them!
11:48 tomeu JT4sugar: writing them needs technical knowledge, but finding someone to write them not
11:51 JT4sugar tomeu, It would seem that screenshots with an Audio walk through of steps would be big step forward.
11:51 tomeu yup, sounds cool
11:52 SeanDaly I've been going nuts for months trying to get working screencam software to do Sugar videos
11:53 the technical expertise required is mind-boggling
11:53 I might just buy a commercial package
11:53 tomeu walterbender's instructions didn't worked?
11:54 SeanDaly had some briefly working in Bolzano, but broke "xephyr" and hasn't worked since
11:54 JT4sugar tomeu, How do we approach the right Technical Sugar Labers to do these few Tutorials?
11:55 tomeu JT4sugar: wish I knew :) a first step may be finding a (possibly interim) community team coordinator to organize meetings where people can discuss this and other similar subjects
11:56 JT4sugar tomeu, I apologize for asking for things I cannot technically do myself but see them as important to grow our resource base
11:56 tomeu I don't think we should expect the marketing team to solve all our challenges :p
11:57 jt4sugar: don't think there's any problem in individuals raising interesting todo items
11:58 what worries me is finding people to actually do what is important
11:58 SeanDaly tomeu: marketers always have a terrible time of it in FLOSS projects, as "noncoders" there will always be some who imply we don't even do work
11:58 tomeu and also keeping critical areas resourced
11:58 JT4sugar tomeu, I'm sure you will be doing alot of hacking while in Boston, can we try to make a point of trying to put a few tutorials together while many are in one place.
11:58 tomeu SeanDaly: well, I really hope SLs is different
12:00 jt4sugar: not sure, we really need to get better at finding other people to take work items. it just doesn't scale having the same few people doing everything
12:00 SeanDaly tomeu: a little different, but not much I'm afraid, I have to spend quite a lot of time explaining very basic marketing concepts :-(
12:00 tomeu SeanDaly: that's because you let coders infiltrate in your meetings ;)
12:01 JT4sugar Even if  just got a Bug-Tracker Tutorial done that would be huge on ramp tool and hopefully lead to the new resources we need
12:01 tomeu SeanDaly: I think we should find a way to make each team more independent, so each can do things their way as they best know
12:01 SeanDaly tomeu: :D :D
12:02 tomeu: hmm yes and no I have a consistent problem with the SoaS team which makes decisions without checking with marketing, makes marketing decisions without checking with marketing... what I need there is working more closely together, not isolated
12:03 JT4sugar Focusing our present resources for a short-time on the "How To" Tutorials will lead to freeing up present developers and the tools to get new ones
12:03 tomeu well, I think you need a soas spin more closely associated to your efforts, but that may not be the only soas spin
12:03 SeanDaly tomeu: in fact it's the exact inverse of for-profit tech, where marketing often runs the show and engineers have to run around to keep up; both models are poor
12:03 cjb SeanDaly: maybe marketing should have its own SoaS spin or something?
12:04 tomeu cjb: that's my idea!
12:04 cjb oh :)
12:04 SeanDaly tomeu, cjb: I have a word for you: iPod
12:04 tomeu hehe
12:04 SeanDaly very clear what it is & what it does
12:04 that's because of great marketing
12:04 cjb and how many millions of dollars were spent in creating it
12:05 SeanDaly in reality, is 4 product lines, each with technical variants, not to mention colors
12:05 cjb anyway, I agree that when we say "SoaS" it should be obvious what it is
12:05 tomeu has to run
12:05 SeanDaly cjb: of course, which is why we need to be just as smart or smarter :D
12:05 cjb what I'm suggesting, I guess, is that the obvious meaning could technically be the marketing spin
12:05 and a non-obvious meaning could be the base spin that the eng team release
12:06 SeanDaly cjb: that would be my point of view, but the way things have gone next SoaS is not marketable that way, we have to skip it
12:06 media campaign I mean
12:06 cjb I don't think skipping it helps
12:06 it's not like the team is saying "we want to change things for just one release"
12:07 it's a more fundamental change than that.  they want people like you to create spins that are tested and used by deployments, while they concentrate on the core technology.
12:07 JT4sugar cjb, Both spins into classroom with the right message for each is the key-One for testing-One for present usability
12:07 cjb (or at least that's how I think the proposal went)
12:07 SeanDaly cjb: oh yes it is, unfortunately
12:07 it's a sound engineering approach, which wrecks the marketing
12:08 Sure we can position it as a maintenance, deployer, developer release, but that's not news & won't grow, no ral point in talking about it
12:08 cjb I don't think it has to wreck the marketing; there just needs to be a spin with the activities included
12:08 and when you do the SoaS v3 marketing launch, make it refer to that spin
12:09 SeanDaly cjb: mchua's last proposal was to offer custom spin service, which I can't believe is scalable in a PR launch
12:09 JT4sugar I think you can effectively do both if you attach the correct message to each SoaS spin and explain exactly what they're for. One is for Future the R&D Sugar Spin
12:10 cjb SeanDaly: I don't understand why not.  We don't have to make our users make the spin.  We can make it for them.
12:10 But "we" isn't going to be the core SoaS team anymore.
12:10 SeanDaly JT4sugar: the problem is fragmentation... we've carefully built up values (promises) in SoaS, most of which Mirabelle back off from
12:10 cjb That's okay.  It just means you have to find someone else to make it.
12:11 SeanDaly cjb: that's not all, there's tthe numbering issue
12:11 I came up with the beta-1, v1, v2 numbering for marketing reasons, and it got results
12:12 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Everyone will understand we are working on future versions. If it was me I would give Teacher two sticks-Present day usable and Future R&D, we would like you to work with both
12:12 SeanDaly There is no way I can say "this is a specific spin of SoaS v3 over Fedora 13"
12:12 cjb SeanDaly: have you considered just telling the SoaS team that you want to reserve SoaS 3 for the spin that does contain more activities?
12:12 I think they might be okay with that
12:12 SeanDaly JT4sugar:at conferences and presentations, easy to explain (I even demo Strawberry if low on sticks)
12:13 JT4sugar Can we ask for Mirabelle to be 2.5?
12:13 SeanDaly cjb: no, there was a strong reaction against that suggestion
12:13 cjb oh :/
12:13 SeanDaly JT4sugar: was exactly my suggestion, strongly rejected
12:13 cjb it seems like product numbering should be controlled by marketing
12:14 let the SoaS team build it, and marketing figure out how to sell it
12:14 SeanDaly So I have no choice but to cancel a media launch. No big deal, we have other stuff in the pipeline. But numbering messed up as a result
12:15 JT4sugar I think two-fold approach gets us around issue and helps Teachers and others feel part of the Future Sugar while using a present version. Allows Teachers and students compare and contrast. if working activity in Strawberry but not in Mirabelle would be easy to point out and report
12:15 SeanDaly Building an effective brand means: limiiting confusion as much as possible
12:16 JT4sugar: two-fold is already a level of detail... marketing message whould be SoaS and its benefits; website can explain which version is best for needs
12:17 teacher casually interested wants to know more: latest stable release with Activities
12:18 school IT admin, or geeky teacher, interested in deployment: bare spin ready for customizing
12:18 JT4sugar If I was to send out package I would send two sticks to teachers or professors I would position as Sugar Today-Sugar Tomorrow with explanation for each. Strawberry/Mirabelle
12:19 SeanDaly Put another way: our existing PR should show a clear roadmap
12:19 Current SoaS approach deviates from that roadmap, is problematic
12:21 needs to sign off soon
12:22 JT4sugar With these new developments the roadmap needs to show both. Development versions will always be out ahead of what is in deployments. Key is to have deployments spend a few days here and there with Development Spin.
12:23 SeanDaly JT4sugar: in my view development spin not worth talking about unless large number of deployments (i.e. realworld impact)
12:24 JT4sugar: would be different if we had advertising budget
12:25 JT4sugar Development spin should be talked up in Tech Blogs
12:26 SeanDaly we could develop sales points for each version, in the jargon "segmenting our offer" although base benefits promises would be identical
12:26 JT4sugar: sure and it's totally natural there be a dev-oriented spin; as I say, sound engineering
12:27 but crossing off the e-readers after our last PR put emphasis on e-readers... sigh
12:28 JT4sugar Understanding that the Spins are for very different purposes and working from there would seem to be best. End result and goal the same but present day approach to each is different
12:30 In a PR release you concentrate on SoaS Spin for marketing with many activities and add in a line: For you developers out there help us with the Future of Sugar download Mirabelle
12:30 SeanDaly JT4sugar: thatt's true but complicated... think "iPod"... all the details about which one to choose are secondary... our PR/marketing needs to do star-product on the one most likely to be easy to try for teachers
12:31 JT4sugar: I suggested the v1, v2 numbering, and later the ice-cream flavors, to make marketing easy; SoaS team view is developer version is v3 Mirabelle, and everything else is a "spin"... this engineer-centric approach is problematic for marketing
12:32 it should be the other way round: v3 Mirabelle should be the continuation of v1 Strawberry and v2 Blueberry, even if technically speaking it's a "spin" of a developer version
12:33 cjb SeanDaly: just refuse to adopt that approach when marketing it :)
12:33 SeanDaly but with the Activities out not even that is possible
12:34 cjb: that will fly like a lead zeppelin, if you think I haven't tried
12:35 JT4sugar So sounds like two track SoaS Classroom(Ice Cream flavors) Soas Developer(Mirabelle and other names) Classroom SoaS will always lag cutting edge developer version-that's just a fact of the software business
12:35 cjb yeah.  I guess I'm just offering my support for the idea, for what it's worth
12:35 we shouldn't be telling you how to do PR campaigns
12:35 SeanDaly I have tried to communicate to mchua and sdz importance of working closely together, as opposed to "SoaS Engineering has some announcements to make"
12:36 cjb well
12:36 SeanDaly This already happened with the beta-1 (formerly known as SoaS-1)
12:36 cjb I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with SoaS Engineering making decisions like that.  I just think they should be separate from the SoaS marketing decisions.
12:37 SeanDaly cjb: can't be both at the same time ;-)
12:37 JT4sugar My advice is to have two marketing campaigns because each SoaS Spin really has two different audiences-One Teachers-Students for learning now Other is Future of Sugar-developer and Highly tech-teacher oriented
12:38 cjb I don't think you even need a marketing campaign for the developer spin
12:38 SeanDaly JT4sugar: think iPod.. doing so will be confusing... message needs to be crystal clear
12:38 cjb developers don't respond to "marketing", like press releases, generally
12:38 SeanDaly cjb: most Sugar developers don't even read SL PR :D
12:38 cjb exactly ;-)
12:38 so that's why I think this is a non-issue
12:39 SoaS Engineering will make their own spin, but that won't make it to the outside world
12:39 what will make it to the outside world is what the marketing team does
12:39 SeanDaly well, a non-media campaign is a nonissue, for sure :-(
12:39 cjb that can be their spin, or another spin, and it can be called whatever you want it to be called
12:39 anyway, my $.02.  back to work now :)
12:40 JT4sugar Think of it this way i would give College of education professors strawberry while I would give Computer Science Professors Mirabelle-you still need message for each
12:40 SeanDaly need to sign off... endmeeting going once...
12:41 JT4sugar: that's fine for direct-mail marketing, for PR we need crystal clear offer, benefits, name, download location
12:41 with Activities
12:42 cjb yeah, agreed
12:42 JT4sugar Then I would only promote Mirabelle through Tech blogs and other Tech related offerings
12:42 SeanDaly JT4sugar: quite... as II say, no media campaign
12:43 but I continue to press for v3 reserved for next media campaign
12:43 JT4sugar No media campaign but a developer recruitment campaign with Mirabelle
12:44 SeanDaly Yes, that's my idea, resources issue has become critical
12:44 signoff going twice....
12:45 thanks JT4sugar, tomeu, cjb
12:45 JT4sugar Thanks All!
12:45 SeanDaly #endmeeting

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