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#sugar-meeting, 2010-03-28

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Time Nick Message
13:28 garycmartin OK, so just to quickly walk through the sketch at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]_vs_start_new.jpg
13:29 christianmarcsch yes
13:30 garycmartin The goal is to try and make the choice for resume and the choice for start new on an equal footing, re: feedback we've been getting so far from kids/teachers.
13:31 The home screen works much as it does today, hover palettes with similar start new and resume entries.
13:31 erikos_ garycmartin: christianmarcsch still here?
13:32 must read backlog, did not get any of the above message until now
13:32 garycmartin However a single click on an activity icon will switch to a full screen selector providing an easy to use prompt for either starting new or resuming a recent activity entry.
13:32 erikos_ I can see you here.
13:33 erikos_ garycmartin: now I see you too ;p
13:33 christianmarcsch still here
13:33 sorry, looks like there is a bit of a lag
13:33 erikos_ <erikos> garycmartin: I like it, I think it is simple and does address the issue
13:33 <erikos> garycmartin: I don't mind the '2 clicks' at all
13:33 <erikos> (btw, for quickly opening the palette you need two clicks, too)
13:33 garycmartin Clicking on one of the fullscreen selector buttons starts the current pulse activity start up process.
13:34 christianmarcsch erikos: i agree, the two clicks don't seem that bad
13:34 so, the first time i select an activity, i will go directly to that activity
13:34 garycmartin Activities do not need to be modified with a 'start new' feature as that is decided on the Shell side still.
13:35 erikos_ garycmartin: yup
13:35 christianmarcsch my question is about the second screen
13:35 does it appear in context of the home view, or is it a separate screen?
13:35 garycmartin christianmarcsch: first activity use will always be a start new and go direct to pulse start-up.
13:36 christianmarcsch garycmartin: that sounds as expected
13:36 garycmartin Starting an activity using the hover palette will also avoid the fullscreen selector (so same behaviour as now).
13:36 erikos_ garycmartin: the palette is still there?
13:37 garycmartin christianmarcsch: if we wanted it in the home screen context, we might as well use instant on palettes, one click to show them (as per the mock-up I emailed)
13:38 christianmarcsch let me check your other sketch, one sec
13:39 garycmartin erikos_: palette, I was thinking we can leave the palettes there for advanced users? But I don't think I'd complain if they went away as it would make things simpler (design and code)
13:40 erikos_ garycmartin: I would remove them, yes
13:40 christianmarcsch why would we remove the palettes?
13:40 erikos_ garycmartin: and only use the way you have in your mockup
13:40 christianmarcsch i think they still make sense
13:40 i'd prefer the consistency we have across the UI
13:41 i would actually suggest a slight modification of gary's first sketch
13:41 garycmartin christianmarcsch: re:the other sketch, the issue I saw with instant on is that I think we would need to indicate the instant on behaviour by adding the little down V icons as per the new toolbar design.
13:41 erikos_ christianmarcsch: if we leave the palettes in, I would find it rather confusing
13:41 i would prefer then to have the palette come up immediatly on left click
13:42 christianmarcsch erikos: possibly, but i think users would expect the palette to still appear on hover
13:42 erikos: since that is the way that icons work in general
13:42 erikos_ which is somehow what we describe in gary's mockup, just without the extra screen
13:42 christianmarcsch well, i was going to suggest that instead of a new screen, the selection comes in as a dialog window
13:42 modal
13:43 garycmartin icons could still have a palette on hover, but it would be just informational. Giving you the name, perhaps a version or mini description even.
13:43 erikos_ christianmarcsch: but isn't that dialog already 'in the palette' somehow?
13:43 garycmartin: good point
13:44 garycmartin Basically using hove help hints (as in most other UIs).
13:44 (hover)
13:44 erikos_ christianmarcsch: I guess I am just carefull not to double functionality
13:45 christianmarcsch that way we could keep the user in context of the home view
13:45 but still enable the selection of either start new or resume
13:45 they could also cancel if they change their minds
13:45 i think this dialog window could co-exist with palettes
13:47 garycmartin christianmarcsch: modal dialogue (like the control panel), yes just trying to think this through (i.e. what happens if a user tries to switch away part way through the process).
13:48 christianmarcsch it's just what appears when you single-click an icon from within any view
13:48 in fact, you might even keep a variation of the dialog for neighborhood and groups
13:48 to either join an existing activity, or start a new one
13:48 erikos: it is, but as gary mentioned the palette is there for quick access, for more advanced users
13:48 erikos: i don't think it matters in this case if there is a bit of duplication
13:48 erikos: though because you bring it up, i'll think about it some more
13:48 i think of it a little like the dialog windows we see in existing operating systems after you first open an application
13:48 and see a selection of recent documents
13:48 that could still co-exist with contextual menus that you could use as a shortcut to open a document directly from the shell
13:48 having both wouldn't be a problem--some users would prefer to invoke the palette to bypass the dialog window
13:49 garycmartin wishes the modal dialogue greyed out the screen content behind so it didn't 'leak' content and functionality from partially obscured screen.
13:49 walterbender joining late... read the backlog
13:50 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I like the direction this is going, but I think that having multiple resume choices in the "full screen object select" is overkill.
13:50 I'll keep it just as start new or resume most recent (identified by name).
13:51 older versions are in the Journal or available on the homeview hover.
13:51 I think the simplicity of just the two choices would be good.
13:51 christianmarcsch walterbender: i like that idea
13:51 walterbender: and it would warrant still keeping the palettes for more choices
13:52 garycmartin I'm thinking most folks will stop using the hover palette and use the 2nd prompt to click.
13:52 walterbender regarding the other views, I am less certain. You would probably want to see all the options for joining as they are all of equal weight.
13:52 christianmarcsch garycmartin: possibly yes
13:52 erikos_ christianmarcsch: good point with the joining of shared activity
13:52 christianmarcsch: a similar issue
13:52 walterbender garycmartin: but I would guess that 90% of resuming is to most recent
13:53 christianmarcsch walterbender: a good point. i'm not sure about the other view either, though it may be worth exploring further
13:54 garycmartin walterbender: I think I'm usually jumping between a few previous versions, so just having 'most recent' would not usually be enough for me at least.
13:55 walterbender well, I suppose it has to do with what activity you are running as well...
13:55 christianmarcsch garycmartin: though i could see offering fewer choices in the dialog, and more in the palette for advanced users
13:56 in fact, we could give more information on the last activity in the dialog, such as a screenshot and metadata
13:56 similar to the journal detail view
14:00 so where do we leave this?
14:00 garycmartin :-)
14:00 erikos_ hmmm
14:00 christianmarcsch as long as everyone agrees with the general idea of the additional dialog window, i'd suggest working on a mockup to review together
14:01 garycmartin yes this was more brainstorming than making a call on anything ;-)
14:01 christianmarcsch garycmartin: agreed
14:02 erikos_ I think the current situation is not good enough
14:02 as we idetified the issues laready
14:02 I would be ok with the minimal change: display the palette directly when clicking on the icon
14:03 christianmarcsch erikos: that sounds good to me as well
14:03 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I'd like to hope we making things simpler (in both design and code) rather than more complicated, I'm with erikos_  in this regard, especially when I put my bug/tester hat on. There are enough test cases already than to want to add a bunch more various paths through the code 'just incase'.
14:03 christianmarcsch erikos: oh sorry, i misread
14:03 erikos: actually, i think the additional dialog feels better
14:03 erikos: are you there?
14:04 erikos_ I am not sure what I read and what not :/
14:04 garycmartin erikos_: what you read last?
14:04 erikos_ <christianmarcsch> so where do we leave this?
14:04 christianmarcsch erikos: oh
14:05 garycmartin blimy...
14:05 erikos_ horrible connection today :/
14:05 christianmarcsch yes
14:05 well, i feel good about the direction i saw in gary's first sketch
14:05 erikos_ http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]_vs_start_new.jpg ?
14:05 walterbender simpler could be to just go with the new sketch and the journal for resume...
14:06 christianmarcsch to me, just invoking the palette on click doesn't feel like enough of a payoff from the click, despite the fact that it's changing the default behavior of palettes
14:06 if that makes sense ;0
14:06 erikos_ christianmarcsch: that makes sense, yes
14:06 christianmarcsch: I think you had a good point about the 'joining a shared activity' behavior
14:06 christianmarcsch the dialog to me feels more appropriate, even though we are adding a new element to our  repertoire
14:07 erikos_ christianmarcsch: I feel this is lacking information for the user, too
14:07 christianmarcsch erikos: i see--what do you think it's lacking?
14:08 erikos_ christianmarcsch: the feedback that you are joining another activity
14:08 christianmarcsch: the 'consequences' of your doing
14:08 christianmarcsch: it seems a bit 'too easy' if that is possible ;p
14:09 christianmarcsch erikos: yes, i tend to agree. and it makes sense that whatever device we end up with be treated consistently for all views
14:09 erikos_ christianmarcsch: yup
14:09 christianmarcsch now, i can see the argument about having the palette in addition, though i still think it wouldn't hurt
14:10 but if people feel strongly that we should either have one or the other (dialog or palette), i'd opt for the dialog
14:10 erikos_ ok, we might even be able to find that out in testing
14:10 garycmartin erikos_: so a visible indication an activity entry is in a shared mode? Only hint now is if Journal shows some buddy icons with the entry... Assuming any one joined...
14:10 erikos_ if the 'palette in addition' is a good idea
14:10 christianmarcsch though in general we invoke palettes on all objects, so keeping that consistency seems best in my mind
14:11 erikos_ christianmarcsch: yeah, I am a big freind of consistency, too
14:11 garycmartin christianmarcsch: we still would have a palette for consistancy, just that it would be infomational in nature (like many others in Sugar).
14:12 christianmarcsch garycmartin: that might make sense, actually
14:12 erikos_ garycmartin: well, at the moment  the only information we get in the mesh view is that the activity icon has another color
14:12 garycmartin christianmarcsch: we need at least the activity text name, some icons can be vague.
14:13 erikos_ garycmartin: and - not sure, it is always lear to the user that when you click on that icon you join that activity
14:14 garycmartin erikos_: ahh we've slipped over to talking about the mesh view now ;-)
14:15 erikos_: if we go for a dialogue/fullscreen, we need to be consistent in all views, same if we stick with palettes (or instant on palettes), or all the above possible paths (ouch).
14:16 christianmarcsch garycmartin: agree with the consistency. palettes + dialog sound fine. the dialog could serve as an "interstitial" screen before opening the activity.
14:18 erikos_ garycmartin: sorry, didn't meant to slip the discussion over :/
14:19 garycmartin: christianmarcsch I have to run out now
14:19 what are the next steps?
14:19 garycmartin erikos_: I hadn't been considering the other views, just home fav view. ;-)
14:19 christianmarcsch i think we could mockup the dialog window
14:19 erikos_ you guys 'phrase' 'mockup' this out?
14:19 christianmarcsch erikos: yes
14:19 erikos_ that would be awesome!
14:20 christianmarcsch gary: since you did the sketch, do you want to take a pass at a dialog window? otherwise i'm happy to
14:20 garycmartin Yea I think another round of mockups is needed.
14:20 christianmarcsch great
14:21 erikos_ nice, shall we do it asynchronously and send it to the devel list?
14:21 christianmarcsch i think as long as it feels like a dialog ontop of the home view...
14:21 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I can perhaps try fro next week (have client projects on the boil just now), perhaps you could do a version as well?
14:21 erikos_ I mean, using the mailing list to do further steps
14:21 christianmarcsch garycmartin: will do
14:21 erikos: yes, that sounds like a good idea
14:21 erikos_ ok, great
14:22 christianmarcsch thanks!
14:22 garycmartin erikos_: christianmarcsch: Yes lets post mockups to the list/wiki so we can work async, then meet up again when there is critical mass.
14:22 christianmarcsch perfect
14:22 talk to you again soon
14:22 erikos_ christianmarcsch: do you read the devel list?
14:22 christianmarcsch: or shall we cc you on the conversation?
14:22 christianmarcsch erikos: i don't think i'm on it
14:22 erikos_ garycmartin: great!
14:22 christianmarcsch erikos: if you would cc me, that would be best
14:22 erikos_ christianmarcsch: oh :/
14:22 garycmartin christianmarcsch: don't forget to end meeting ;-)
14:22 erikos_ christianmarcsch: ok
14:23 christianmarcsch #endmeeting

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