| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 11:28 | walterbender | could everyone please wave :) |
| 11:28 | tomeu | waves |
| 11:28 | cjb | wave |
| 11:28 | SeanDaly | does the wave |
| 11:29 | walterbender | our wave is bouncing back and forth across the Atlantic |
| 11:29 | SeanDaly | standing waves |
| 11:29 | tomeu | imagines a tsunami of brown sugar |
| 11:29 | walterbender | We've been discussing SoaS and TM... I'd like to also discuss the general topic of sustainability. |
| 11:29 | mchua | waves |
| 11:30 | walterbender | but let's focus on SoaS discussion for a moment. |
| 11:30 | #topic SoaS | |
| 11:30 | mchua | walterbender: what's the rest of the agenda? soas and tm is all? |
| 11:30 | walterbender | mchua: + sustainability |
| 11:30 | sdziallas | that sounds like I should be paying attention ;) |
| 11:31 | walterbender | I don't know that we have any decisions to make today, but I want to make sure people on the board have a heads up as to what is going on... lots. |
| 11:31 | mchua | digs up links to mailing list threads |
| 11:31 | walterbender | re SoaS, just to let people know, sdziallas has set into motion a Fedora "spin" for Mirabelle |
| 11:32 | mchua | #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]March/010395.html |
| 11:32 | walterbender | This has ramifications short term and long term. |
| 11:32 | mchua | That's the IAEP thread that links to the other ones. |
| 11:32 | #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]March/000934.html | |
| 11:32 | walterbender | alas the thread got split on different lists |
| 11:32 | there is a marketing version as well. | |
| 11:32 | mchua | yeah, the link to the marketing thread is in the iaep email. |
| 11:33 | walterbender | suggests as an aside to try to keep the thread unified if possible in the future |
| 11:34 | In any case, there is a more recent discussion not yet on the lists about a team separate from the SoaS team that may be willing to pick up support and maintenance of Blueberry. | |
| 11:34 | tomeu | so maintenance of a stable branch? |
| 11:34 | walterbender | yes... |
| 11:35 | with the Fedora patches for F12 included | |
| 11:35 | tomeu | cool, I presume it's because they use it? |
| 11:35 | walterbender | yes |
| 11:35 | tomeu | great, that's good news for the sustainability front, as well |
| 11:35 | walterbender | I agree |
| 11:35 | sdziallas | I guess there's three things going on (+1 not to throw everything altogether) |
| 11:35 | and yes, I'm happy if somebody wanted to take that off my shoulders :) | |
| 11:36 | walterbender | so we were just talking about the marketing implications... and we can take the rest of that discussion back to the lists... |
| 11:36 | SeanDaly | it sounds like great news... Activities are a moving target |
| 11:37 | walterbender | but the point is that a good thing is happening and we should celebrate it and amplify it if we can. |
| 11:37 | tomeu | walterbender: great idea |
| 11:37 | walterbender | anything else for this topic we should discuss now? |
| 11:37 | tomeu | we need to learn to replicate that in other areas |
| 11:37 | SeanDaly | we've cited local Labs in PR previously, we need to demonstrate that we have a plan for scaling |
| 11:37 | walterbender | tomeu: +1 |
| 11:38 | SeanDaly: we should do a feature on the .py team... | |
| 11:38 | tomeu | btw, seems like the argentinan local lab is doing awesome stuff, but I don't have time to read the archives of their list now |
| 11:38 | walterbender | they are off the charts productive |
| 11:39 | SeanDaly | walterbender: I like the idea, since our PR has historically been weak in Spanish speaking countries (my bad I don't speak es !) |
| 11:39 | walterbender | another aside: I meet with the MoE of .ar in a few weeks. I will coordinate with the .ar lab |
| 11:39 | SeanDaly | great |
| 11:39 | tomeu | great, I think they are working more with the municipal government in buenos aires |
| 11:39 | mchua | *really* appreciates walterbender writing these sorts of things up in weekly reports, btw! |
| 11:40 | it's hard for me to keep up with all that's going on otherwise | |
| 11:40 | walterbender | SeanDaly: I think we can find someone who speaks Spanish :) |
| 11:40 | SeanDaly | reminder, my idea for joint OLPC PR is to showcase AR project |
| 11:40 | tomeu | when we have a deployment team with regular meetings, I hope everybody be more aware of what happens locally |
| 11:40 | walterbender | SeanDaly: and PY!! |
| 11:41 | tomeu: do you know if Ceibal uses IRC the way Paraguay does? | |
| 11:42 | #olpc-paraguay uses the meeting bot... etc. all their meetings are on freenode | |
| 11:42 | so it is easy to interact with them in #sugar too | |
| 11:42 | mchua | To tie this into the sustainability discussion - how can we tap the contributor growth in these deployments to help us spread the load? |
| 11:42 | I know tomeu and bernie and others have been doing a lot of great work and outreach with them | |
| 11:42 | tomeu | walterbender: don't think they use irc internally |
| 11:42 | walterbender | mchua: this is the point of highlighting the .py example... |
| 11:42 | tomeu | walterbender: but esteban and daniel_c are in #sugar often |
| 11:43 | walterbender | they are very systemic in their approach. |
| 11:43 | mchua | but there seems to still be more of a bridge that could be made - core folks are still overloaded with basic tasks, it seems |
| 11:43 | ah, okay/ | |
| 11:43 | sits back to listen about .py and such | |
| 11:43 | walterbender | tomeu: I don't want to diminish the .ar efforts :) |
| 11:43 | SeanDaly | Yes .py too |
| 11:43 | walterbender | it is cool that we have some great examples emerging... time to let the world know so they can emulate |
| 11:43 | tomeu | walterbender: hmm, can you extend? what plays .ar here? |
| 11:44 | walterbender | tomeu: I think that in Argentina, many of the same good things that are happening in Paraguay are also beginning to happen. |
| 11:44 | tomeu | ah, could be |
| 11:45 | though I think they talk more often of the plan ceibal as an example | |
| 11:45 | walterbender | they just need to steal bernie for a while :) |
| 11:45 | SeanDaly | bernie, roving Sugar ambassador |
| 11:45 | tomeu | we should talk with gonzalo about all this, no point in us speculating what's going on there |
| 11:45 | walterbender | heads south in October... |
| 11:46 | tomeu: well, I try to read their list archive... not pure speculation :) | |
| 11:46 | anyway, we should move on... | |
| 11:46 | briefly discuss TM? | |
| 11:47 | cjb and SeanDaly were exchanging some perspectives earlier. | |
| 11:47 | but can I propose an Action for marketing: to talk with .py re some PR? | |
| 11:48 | mchua | just sent a message to the SLOBs list re: scheduling a TM discussion call - will forward to iaep momentarily. |
| 11:48 | SeanDaly | walterbender: sure |
| 11:48 | walterbender | (and maybe a profile of our roving ambassador?) |
| 11:48 | tomeu | walterbender: ah ok |
| 11:48 | walterbender | #Action: Marketing will discuss with .py a PR plan to highlight their local-lab efforts. |
| 11:48 | #topic TM | |
| 11:49 | cjb | hm, not sure how to talk about TMs more. oh, I could be clear that the latest TM policy draft on the wiki is fine with me. |
| 11:49 | walterbender | #action: mchua will organize the voice meeting to discuss TM prior to the April face-to-face meeting. |
| 11:50 | bernie | hello |
| 11:50 | walterbender | cjb: I think we have exhausted our ability to discuss this topic in low-bandwidth media |
| 11:50 | cjb | walterbender: sure, I agree. |
| 11:50 | walterbender | bernie: ciao... do you have the backlog? |
| 11:50 | tomeu | hi bernie |
| 11:51 | sdziallas | hi bernie |
| 11:51 | bernie | walterbender: yes |
| 11:51 | SeanDaly | TM issue is a motivator for my Boston visit, I am finding imits to electronic communication |
| 11:51 | bernie | reads |
| 11:51 | SeanDaly | hi bernie |
| 11:51 | walterbender | ok, so maybe we leave it at that. |
| 11:51 | cjb | walterbender: (I think it might actually be just because we understand each other's position pretty well by now, rather than because we're not communicating well.) |
| 11:51 | walterbender | cjb: I am not sure... |
| 11:52 | cjb: in any case, we aren't finding any middle ground | |
| 11:52 | cjb | yeah |
| 11:52 | SeanDaly | there's an article-of-faith issue: I maintain that I can't grow the brand wiithout TM licensee vetting; like coding with no compiler |
| 11:52 | cjb | (sometimes that just means it's time to make a decision somehow) |
| 11:53 | walterbender | but after the face to face, it is time to give a vote and live with our decisions for a while, me thinks |
| 11:53 | cjb | *nod* I see. |
| 11:53 | SeanDaly | I also maintain that it's in our interest to know testers & deployers, to get feedback & grow community |
| 11:54 | my problem is, everyone can vote marketing out of effective existence | |
| 11:54 | tomeu | in sugar we code a lot without compilers :p |
| 11:54 | faith-based computing | |
| 11:55 | bernie | sdziallas: I'll follow up with an email where I clearly explain what the goal is and why I think the naming should suggest continuation rather than forking. |
| 11:55 | cjb | SeanDaly: I think you just have to make it as clear as possible -- hopefully the face-to-face helps -- that that's what you think they'll be doing. |
| 11:55 | walterbender | SeanDaly: that is of course a serious consideration in the discussion. |
| 11:55 | SeanDaly | what we're trying to do is edge-of-envelope, so as stated earlier it may be I am too ambitious for growing awareness |
| 11:55 | tomeu: touché !! | |
| 11:55 | sdziallas | bernie: that sounds fair! I'm looking forward to it :) (and I'm pretty confident that we'll have it work out) |
| 11:55 | walterbender | though he said code without "computers" |
| 11:56 | SeanDaly | I could have said computers... back in high school students wrote code in little notebooks since timeshare limited :D |
| 11:56 | tomeu | heh |
| 11:56 | walterbender | so let's grab a few remaining minutes to discuss sustainability. |
| 11:56 | hated punch card and batch programming :( | |
| 11:57 | not the way to do iterative design | |
| 11:57 | #topic sustainability | |
| 11:57 | I got two more grant rejections this week: from the NSF and the DML grant | |
| 11:57 | I am questioning this as a model for us | |
| 11:57 | cjb | aw, sorry to hear. |
| 11:57 | SeanDaly | ouch |
| 11:58 | any feedback concerning rejection reasons? | |
| 11:58 | walterbender | we haven't really tried the EU programs yet... maybe we could win there? |
| 11:58 | SeanDaly: nothing useful from the NSF and nothing at all from DML | |
| 11:59 | part of this is a communications problem... | |
| 11:59 | SeanDaly | I neglected to debrief SLOBs on my OSOR meeting |
| 12:00 | in a phrase, they are very interested in us but consider it early days to promote us; want third-party studies re 1to1 effectiveness and Sugar as good 1to1 | |
| 12:00 | EU has vast number of programs | |
| 12:01 | OSOR would be great reference in any EU application, and they are willing to work with us when we wish | |
| 12:01 | walterbender | I am still holding out hope for the USAID grant for a local lab in Pakistan... it would be a great model |
| 12:01 | SeanDaly | walterbender: communications problem, can you elaborate? |
| 12:01 | tomeu | in europe, I would partner with some organization that has already experience getting eu grants |
| 12:02 | but I wonder why we would need grants when: - our current operational costs are very low, - sugar is widely used and their deployers increasingly depend on SLs' operations | |
| 12:02 | walterbender | well, we have so much going on that it is hard to make clear in a grant proposal what is the relevant aspect to that grant... |
| 12:02 | SeanDaly | tomeu: yes, since arriving back in FR last summer I have started developing contacts in FLOSS edu; lots of stuff going on & following my Solutions Linux prez I have been invited to 2 other conferences |
| 12:03 | cjb | tomeu: funding travel to in-person confs would be a good use of grants |
| 12:03 | walterbender | tomeu: well, I have been very specific in the what I am trying to get money for: meetings, media, specific development tasks that wouldn't happen otherwise... |
| 12:03 | SeanDaly | tomeu: marketing/promotion/pr is expensive, I've been paying those myself but I can't go on like that |
| 12:04 | tomeu: and if we could advertise, things couls move very quickly with teachers | |
| 12:04 | walterbender | but no luck on any of these (well, actually, the Nokia grant came through but got fumbled in our interactions with the SFC) |
| 12:04 | tomeu | cjb: yeah, but if we stop having developers, we won't have nobody to fly around |
| 12:04 | walterbender | I want to be able to give out SoaS because it is still a roadblock for teachers to make sticks, for example... |
| 12:05 | SeanDaly | travel funds would certainly be very useful |
| 12:05 | tomeu | SeanDaly: I'm more worried now about keeping our current capacity than about growing it in quite open-ended ways |
| 12:05 | walterbender | tomeu: building more relationships like you have with Collabora would go a long ways towards helping us with the status quo |
| 12:05 | and with growth... | |
| 12:05 | tomeu | basically, my main problem is that our community keeps talking about things we want to be done, but I don't think we talk enough about who will do it and for how long |
| 12:05 | SeanDaly | tomeu: our current capacity is stretched thin and we need to grow contributors as a priority |
| 12:06 | tomeu | walterbender: hmm, I think collabora is kind of a one-time donation, not really sustainable |
| 12:06 | walterbender | tomeu: there are many exceptions to that assertion... |
| 12:06 | mchua | Yeah... we have resource scarcity, but tend to need other kinds of resources more. |
| 12:06 | (er, that was re: tomeu's much earlier comment on "why do we need grants?") | |
| 12:06 | tomeu | walterbender: well, it's the impression I have |
| 12:06 | mchua | (my screen, apparently, failed to scroll.) |
| 12:07 | walterbender | tomeu: I agree... but getting 3rd parties interested in sustaining projects I think is part of our strategy... |
| 12:07 | SeanDaly | I have become convinced we should recruit in schools - high schools & universities - through professors (cf jt4sugar kit proposal) |
| 12:07 | walterbender | tomeu: those will come and go and local labs will be more consistent |
| 12:07 | mchua | One question I wanted to raise - and this may not be the right forum for it, so I'm happy to take it elsewhere - is resources for Sugar core development itself. |
| 12:07 | tomeu | walterbender: yes, but I think that if we have possibilities that are more sustainable, we should focus on those |
| 12:08 | mchua | Most of our marketing has been about deployment-facing products, like Activities and SoaS. |
| 12:08 | walterbender | SeanDaly: that too... I get lots of help these days out of Jeff Elkner's group, for example |
| 12:08 | tomeu | mchua: I would call it maintenance |
| 12:08 | mchua | But sugar-core needs love, and attention, and resources to - do folks working on sugar-core feel like they're getting enough of that? |
| 12:08 | tomeu | mchua: we have lots of developers, few maintainers |
| 12:08 | mchua | tomeu: ok, help with maintenance, then |
| 12:08 | bernie | has to drop off again :-( |
| 12:08 | walterbender | tomeu: is there a project where it is otherwise? |
| 12:08 | mchua | Okay, then maybe that's another recruiting thing to look into... sugar-core maintainers. |
| 12:09 | (conbributor recruiting as opposed to user marketing.) | |
| 12:10 | tomeu | walterbender: there are projects in which downstreams understand they need to contribute to maintenance |
| 12:10 | walterbender | tomeu: that is a different matter and one where I think we are in need of better communication |
| 12:10 | SeanDaly | recruitment of contributors, and reaching out to millions of teachers, are very separate projects although of course common thread |
| 12:10 | tomeu | walterbender: yes, it's a matter of communication |
| 12:10 | walterbender | tomeu: we are getting better cooperation from OLPC these days, for example |
| 12:10 | tomeu | SeanDaly: you aren't very likely to get volunteer maintainers |
| 12:11 | walterbender: yes, OLPC groks it | |
| 12:11 | SeanDaly | tomeu: another model then? obtain funding -> hire contract engineers? |
| 12:11 | tomeu | SeanDaly: the maintainers should be employees of deployers |
| 12:11 | SeanDaly: because deployers know what is important and what not | |
| 12:12 | and they are spending lots of money in downstream engineering work | |
| 12:12 | walterbender | tomeu: I think people would be more willing to maintain if they had more feedback from the end users... I cannot keep up with the TA feedback, so I am very attentive to that project... |
| 12:12 | tomeu | that wouldn't be efficient if there weren't maintainers where to pool their work |
| 12:12 | SeanDaly | a bit chicken-and-egg, since no large Sugar deployments yet outside OLPC |
| 12:12 | tomeu | SeanDaly: what's the problem with OLPC deployments? |
| 12:13 | SeanDaly: they are already spending money in engineering, they are giving for granted that volunteers will always maintain sugar. and that's wrong | |
| 12:13 | SeanDaly | tomeu: is there a problem? I thought latest Sugar not on any OLPC machines |
| 12:13 | tomeu | and we need to explain them that it's wrong and which risks they are running |
| 12:13 | SeanDaly: I interpreted "a bit chicken-and-egg, since no large Sugar deployments yet outside OLPC" as if olpc deployments couldn't contribute to maintenance | |
| 12:14 | cjb | tomeu: hi |
| 12:14 | SeanDaly | tomeu: my mistake, I assumed OLPC deployments runnning older Sugar |
| 12:14 | cjb | not sure what you mean -- Sayamindu's maintaining 0.84 for us at the moment, and that's what we're shipping |
| 12:14 | (he's an employee) | |
| 12:15 | oh! maybe you mean the *deployments* are assuming they don't have to maintain Sugar, rather than OLPC itself? | |
| 12:15 | walterbender | needs to go in a few minutes... I'll do an #endmeeting so I don't block the channel. |
| 12:16 | cjb | I think it's true that a lot of deployments don't really know how they'd meaningfully maintain Sugar, they'd much rather do it through OLPC somehow |
| 12:16 | tomeu | cjb: well, any downstreams, but deployers have bigger engineering resources in total than olpc |
| 12:17 | cjb | I see |
| 12:17 | walterbender | let me just say for the record that there are some other sustainability issues in addition to maintenance... a related one, for example, is testing. And documentation. |
| 12:17 | tomeu | cjb: that would work as well |
| 12:17 | cjb | yeah, I agree that deployers should help out with Sugar maintenance more |
| 12:17 | tomeu | cjb: I guess some deployments will want to grow local capacity, others not |
| 12:17 | cjb | tomeu: I think some just really don't know how to start doing that |
| 12:17 | (and I don't know either) | |
| 12:17 | walterbender | tomeu: but we are seeing examples of that... .py for example. |
| 12:17 | tomeu | cjb: in any case, they have told me they want to contribute to upstream |
| 12:17 | cjb: but it's very hard to explain these things to their bosses | |
| 12:18 | cjb | yeah |
| 12:18 | tomeu | they just cannot believe we are doing what we are doing by free |
| 12:18 | it blows thier minds | |
| 12:18 | so there's a work to be done there that takes time | |
| 12:18 | cjb | walterbender: I should get going in a few mins too |
| 12:19 | mchua | has to leave soon |
| 12:19 | SeanDaly | testing, documentation, ... -> even helpline, through for example for-profits in ecosystem |
| 12:19 | walterbender | ok... |
| 12:19 | #endmeeting |