Time |
Nick |
Message |
11:28 |
walterbender |
could everyone please wave :) |
11:28 |
tomeu |
waves |
11:28 |
cjb |
wave |
11:28 |
SeanDaly |
does the wave |
11:29 |
walterbender |
our wave is bouncing back and forth across the Atlantic |
11:29 |
SeanDaly |
standing waves |
11:29 |
tomeu |
imagines a tsunami of brown sugar |
11:29 |
walterbender |
We've been discussing SoaS and TM... I'd like to also discuss the general topic of sustainability. |
11:29 |
mchua |
waves |
11:30 |
walterbender |
but let's focus on SoaS discussion for a moment. |
11:30 |
|
#topic SoaS |
11:30 |
mchua |
walterbender: what's the rest of the agenda? soas and tm is all? |
11:30 |
walterbender |
mchua: + sustainability |
11:30 |
sdziallas |
that sounds like I should be paying attention ;) |
11:31 |
walterbender |
I don't know that we have any decisions to make today, but I want to make sure people on the board have a heads up as to what is going on... lots. |
11:31 |
mchua |
digs up links to mailing list threads |
11:31 |
walterbender |
re SoaS, just to let people know, sdziallas has set into motion a Fedora "spin" for Mirabelle |
11:32 |
mchua |
#link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]March/010395.html |
11:32 |
walterbender |
This has ramifications short term and long term. |
11:32 |
mchua |
That's the IAEP thread that links to the other ones. |
11:32 |
|
#link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]March/000934.html |
11:32 |
walterbender |
alas the thread got split on different lists |
11:32 |
|
there is a marketing version as well. |
11:32 |
mchua |
yeah, the link to the marketing thread is in the iaep email. |
11:33 |
walterbender |
suggests as an aside to try to keep the thread unified if possible in the future |
11:34 |
|
In any case, there is a more recent discussion not yet on the lists about a team separate from the SoaS team that may be willing to pick up support and maintenance of Blueberry. |
11:34 |
tomeu |
so maintenance of a stable branch? |
11:34 |
walterbender |
yes... |
11:35 |
|
with the Fedora patches for F12 included |
11:35 |
tomeu |
cool, I presume it's because they use it? |
11:35 |
walterbender |
yes |
11:35 |
tomeu |
great, that's good news for the sustainability front, as well |
11:35 |
walterbender |
I agree |
11:35 |
sdziallas |
I guess there's three things going on (+1 not to throw everything altogether) |
11:35 |
|
and yes, I'm happy if somebody wanted to take that off my shoulders :) |
11:36 |
walterbender |
so we were just talking about the marketing implications... and we can take the rest of that discussion back to the lists... |
11:36 |
SeanDaly |
it sounds like great news... Activities are a moving target |
11:37 |
walterbender |
but the point is that a good thing is happening and we should celebrate it and amplify it if we can. |
11:37 |
tomeu |
walterbender: great idea |
11:37 |
walterbender |
anything else for this topic we should discuss now? |
11:37 |
tomeu |
we need to learn to replicate that in other areas |
11:37 |
SeanDaly |
we've cited local Labs in PR previously, we need to demonstrate that we have a plan for scaling |
11:37 |
walterbender |
tomeu: +1 |
11:38 |
|
SeanDaly: we should do a feature on the .py team... |
11:38 |
tomeu |
btw, seems like the argentinan local lab is doing awesome stuff, but I don't have time to read the archives of their list now |
11:38 |
walterbender |
they are off the charts productive |
11:39 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: I like the idea, since our PR has historically been weak in Spanish speaking countries (my bad I don't speak es !) |
11:39 |
walterbender |
another aside: I meet with the MoE of .ar in a few weeks. I will coordinate with the .ar lab |
11:39 |
SeanDaly |
great |
11:39 |
tomeu |
great, I think they are working more with the municipal government in buenos aires |
11:39 |
mchua |
*really* appreciates walterbender writing these sorts of things up in weekly reports, btw! |
11:40 |
|
it's hard for me to keep up with all that's going on otherwise |
11:40 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: I think we can find someone who speaks Spanish :) |
11:40 |
SeanDaly |
reminder, my idea for joint OLPC PR is to showcase AR project |
11:40 |
tomeu |
when we have a deployment team with regular meetings, I hope everybody be more aware of what happens locally |
11:40 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: and PY!! |
11:41 |
|
tomeu: do you know if Ceibal uses IRC the way Paraguay does? |
11:42 |
|
#olpc-paraguay uses the meeting bot... etc. all their meetings are on freenode |
11:42 |
|
so it is easy to interact with them in #sugar too |
11:42 |
mchua |
To tie this into the sustainability discussion - how can we tap the contributor growth in these deployments to help us spread the load? |
11:42 |
|
I know tomeu and bernie and others have been doing a lot of great work and outreach with them |
11:42 |
tomeu |
walterbender: don't think they use irc internally |
11:42 |
walterbender |
mchua: this is the point of highlighting the .py example... |
11:42 |
tomeu |
walterbender: but esteban and daniel_c are in #sugar often |
11:43 |
walterbender |
they are very systemic in their approach. |
11:43 |
mchua |
but there seems to still be more of a bridge that could be made - core folks are still overloaded with basic tasks, it seems |
11:43 |
|
ah, okay/ |
11:43 |
|
sits back to listen about .py and such |
11:43 |
walterbender |
tomeu: I don't want to diminish the .ar efforts :) |
11:43 |
SeanDaly |
Yes .py too |
11:43 |
walterbender |
it is cool that we have some great examples emerging... time to let the world know so they can emulate |
11:43 |
tomeu |
walterbender: hmm, can you extend? what plays .ar here? |
11:44 |
walterbender |
tomeu: I think that in Argentina, many of the same good things that are happening in Paraguay are also beginning to happen. |
11:44 |
tomeu |
ah, could be |
11:45 |
|
though I think they talk more often of the plan ceibal as an example |
11:45 |
walterbender |
they just need to steal bernie for a while :) |
11:45 |
SeanDaly |
bernie, roving Sugar ambassador |
11:45 |
tomeu |
we should talk with gonzalo about all this, no point in us speculating what's going on there |
11:45 |
walterbender |
heads south in October... |
11:46 |
|
tomeu: well, I try to read their list archive... not pure speculation :) |
11:46 |
|
anyway, we should move on... |
11:46 |
|
briefly discuss TM? |
11:47 |
|
cjb and SeanDaly were exchanging some perspectives earlier. |
11:47 |
|
but can I propose an Action for marketing: to talk with .py re some PR? |
11:48 |
mchua |
just sent a message to the SLOBs list re: scheduling a TM discussion call - will forward to iaep momentarily. |
11:48 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: sure |
11:48 |
walterbender |
(and maybe a profile of our roving ambassador?) |
11:48 |
tomeu |
walterbender: ah ok |
11:48 |
walterbender |
#Action: Marketing will discuss with .py a PR plan to highlight their local-lab efforts. |
11:48 |
|
#topic TM |
11:49 |
cjb |
hm, not sure how to talk about TMs more. oh, I could be clear that the latest TM policy draft on the wiki is fine with me. |
11:49 |
walterbender |
#action: mchua will organize the voice meeting to discuss TM prior to the April face-to-face meeting. |
11:50 |
bernie |
hello |
11:50 |
walterbender |
cjb: I think we have exhausted our ability to discuss this topic in low-bandwidth media |
11:50 |
cjb |
walterbender: sure, I agree. |
11:50 |
walterbender |
bernie: ciao... do you have the backlog? |
11:50 |
tomeu |
hi bernie |
11:51 |
sdziallas |
hi bernie |
11:51 |
bernie |
walterbender: yes |
11:51 |
SeanDaly |
TM issue is a motivator for my Boston visit, I am finding imits to electronic communication |
11:51 |
bernie |
reads |
11:51 |
SeanDaly |
hi bernie |
11:51 |
walterbender |
ok, so maybe we leave it at that. |
11:51 |
cjb |
walterbender: (I think it might actually be just because we understand each other's position pretty well by now, rather than because we're not communicating well.) |
11:51 |
walterbender |
cjb: I am not sure... |
11:52 |
|
cjb: in any case, we aren't finding any middle ground |
11:52 |
cjb |
yeah |
11:52 |
SeanDaly |
there's an article-of-faith issue: I maintain that I can't grow the brand wiithout TM licensee vetting; like coding with no compiler |
11:52 |
cjb |
(sometimes that just means it's time to make a decision somehow) |
11:53 |
walterbender |
but after the face to face, it is time to give a vote and live with our decisions for a while, me thinks |
11:53 |
cjb |
*nod* I see. |
11:53 |
SeanDaly |
I also maintain that it's in our interest to know testers & deployers, to get feedback & grow community |
11:54 |
|
my problem is, everyone can vote marketing out of effective existence |
11:54 |
tomeu |
in sugar we code a lot without compilers :p |
11:54 |
|
faith-based computing |
11:55 |
bernie |
sdziallas: I'll follow up with an email where I clearly explain what the goal is and why I think the naming should suggest continuation rather than forking. |
11:55 |
cjb |
SeanDaly: I think you just have to make it as clear as possible -- hopefully the face-to-face helps -- that that's what you think they'll be doing. |
11:55 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: that is of course a serious consideration in the discussion. |
11:55 |
SeanDaly |
what we're trying to do is edge-of-envelope, so as stated earlier it may be I am too ambitious for growing awareness |
11:55 |
|
tomeu: touché !! |
11:55 |
sdziallas |
bernie: that sounds fair! I'm looking forward to it :) (and I'm pretty confident that we'll have it work out) |
11:55 |
walterbender |
though he said code without "computers" |
11:56 |
SeanDaly |
I could have said computers... back in high school students wrote code in little notebooks since timeshare limited :D |
11:56 |
tomeu |
heh |
11:56 |
walterbender |
so let's grab a few remaining minutes to discuss sustainability. |
11:56 |
|
hated punch card and batch programming :( |
11:57 |
|
not the way to do iterative design |
11:57 |
|
#topic sustainability |
11:57 |
|
I got two more grant rejections this week: from the NSF and the DML grant |
11:57 |
|
I am questioning this as a model for us |
11:57 |
cjb |
aw, sorry to hear. |
11:57 |
SeanDaly |
ouch |
11:58 |
|
any feedback concerning rejection reasons? |
11:58 |
walterbender |
we haven't really tried the EU programs yet... maybe we could win there? |
11:58 |
|
SeanDaly: nothing useful from the NSF and nothing at all from DML |
11:59 |
|
part of this is a communications problem... |
11:59 |
SeanDaly |
I neglected to debrief SLOBs on my OSOR meeting |
12:00 |
|
in a phrase, they are very interested in us but consider it early days to promote us; want third-party studies re 1to1 effectiveness and Sugar as good 1to1 |
12:00 |
|
EU has vast number of programs |
12:01 |
|
OSOR would be great reference in any EU application, and they are willing to work with us when we wish |
12:01 |
walterbender |
I am still holding out hope for the USAID grant for a local lab in Pakistan... it would be a great model |
12:01 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: communications problem, can you elaborate? |
12:01 |
tomeu |
in europe, I would partner with some organization that has already experience getting eu grants |
12:02 |
|
but I wonder why we would need grants when: - our current operational costs are very low, - sugar is widely used and their deployers increasingly depend on SLs' operations |
12:02 |
walterbender |
well, we have so much going on that it is hard to make clear in a grant proposal what is the relevant aspect to that grant... |
12:02 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: yes, since arriving back in FR last summer I have started developing contacts in FLOSS edu; lots of stuff going on & following my Solutions Linux prez I have been invited to 2 other conferences |
12:03 |
cjb |
tomeu: funding travel to in-person confs would be a good use of grants |
12:03 |
walterbender |
tomeu: well, I have been very specific in the what I am trying to get money for: meetings, media, specific development tasks that wouldn't happen otherwise... |
12:03 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: marketing/promotion/pr is expensive, I've been paying those myself but I can't go on like that |
12:04 |
|
tomeu: and if we could advertise, things couls move very quickly with teachers |
12:04 |
walterbender |
but no luck on any of these (well, actually, the Nokia grant came through but got fumbled in our interactions with the SFC) |
12:04 |
tomeu |
cjb: yeah, but if we stop having developers, we won't have nobody to fly around |
12:04 |
walterbender |
I want to be able to give out SoaS because it is still a roadblock for teachers to make sticks, for example... |
12:05 |
SeanDaly |
travel funds would certainly be very useful |
12:05 |
tomeu |
SeanDaly: I'm more worried now about keeping our current capacity than about growing it in quite open-ended ways |
12:05 |
walterbender |
tomeu: building more relationships like you have with Collabora would go a long ways towards helping us with the status quo |
12:05 |
|
and with growth... |
12:05 |
tomeu |
basically, my main problem is that our community keeps talking about things we want to be done, but I don't think we talk enough about who will do it and for how long |
12:05 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: our current capacity is stretched thin and we need to grow contributors as a priority |
12:06 |
tomeu |
walterbender: hmm, I think collabora is kind of a one-time donation, not really sustainable |
12:06 |
walterbender |
tomeu: there are many exceptions to that assertion... |
12:06 |
mchua |
Yeah... we have resource scarcity, but tend to need other kinds of resources more. |
12:06 |
|
(er, that was re: tomeu's much earlier comment on "why do we need grants?") |
12:06 |
tomeu |
walterbender: well, it's the impression I have |
12:06 |
mchua |
(my screen, apparently, failed to scroll.) |
12:07 |
walterbender |
tomeu: I agree... but getting 3rd parties interested in sustaining projects I think is part of our strategy... |
12:07 |
SeanDaly |
I have become convinced we should recruit in schools - high schools & universities - through professors (cf jt4sugar kit proposal) |
12:07 |
walterbender |
tomeu: those will come and go and local labs will be more consistent |
12:07 |
mchua |
One question I wanted to raise - and this may not be the right forum for it, so I'm happy to take it elsewhere - is resources for Sugar core development itself. |
12:07 |
tomeu |
walterbender: yes, but I think that if we have possibilities that are more sustainable, we should focus on those |
12:08 |
mchua |
Most of our marketing has been about deployment-facing products, like Activities and SoaS. |
12:08 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: that too... I get lots of help these days out of Jeff Elkner's group, for example |
12:08 |
tomeu |
mchua: I would call it maintenance |
12:08 |
mchua |
But sugar-core needs love, and attention, and resources to - do folks working on sugar-core feel like they're getting enough of that? |
12:08 |
tomeu |
mchua: we have lots of developers, few maintainers |
12:08 |
mchua |
tomeu: ok, help with maintenance, then |
12:08 |
bernie |
has to drop off again :-( |
12:08 |
walterbender |
tomeu: is there a project where it is otherwise? |
12:08 |
mchua |
Okay, then maybe that's another recruiting thing to look into... sugar-core maintainers. |
12:09 |
|
(conbributor recruiting as opposed to user marketing.) |
12:10 |
tomeu |
walterbender: there are projects in which downstreams understand they need to contribute to maintenance |
12:10 |
walterbender |
tomeu: that is a different matter and one where I think we are in need of better communication |
12:10 |
SeanDaly |
recruitment of contributors, and reaching out to millions of teachers, are very separate projects although of course common thread |
12:10 |
tomeu |
walterbender: yes, it's a matter of communication |
12:10 |
walterbender |
tomeu: we are getting better cooperation from OLPC these days, for example |
12:10 |
tomeu |
SeanDaly: you aren't very likely to get volunteer maintainers |
12:11 |
|
walterbender: yes, OLPC groks it |
12:11 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: another model then? obtain funding -> hire contract engineers? |
12:11 |
tomeu |
SeanDaly: the maintainers should be employees of deployers |
12:11 |
|
SeanDaly: because deployers know what is important and what not |
12:12 |
|
and they are spending lots of money in downstream engineering work |
12:12 |
walterbender |
tomeu: I think people would be more willing to maintain if they had more feedback from the end users... I cannot keep up with the TA feedback, so I am very attentive to that project... |
12:12 |
tomeu |
that wouldn't be efficient if there weren't maintainers where to pool their work |
12:12 |
SeanDaly |
a bit chicken-and-egg, since no large Sugar deployments yet outside OLPC |
12:12 |
tomeu |
SeanDaly: what's the problem with OLPC deployments? |
12:13 |
|
SeanDaly: they are already spending money in engineering, they are giving for granted that volunteers will always maintain sugar. and that's wrong |
12:13 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: is there a problem? I thought latest Sugar not on any OLPC machines |
12:13 |
tomeu |
and we need to explain them that it's wrong and which risks they are running |
12:13 |
|
SeanDaly: I interpreted "a bit chicken-and-egg, since no large Sugar deployments yet outside OLPC" as if olpc deployments couldn't contribute to maintenance |
12:14 |
cjb |
tomeu: hi |
12:14 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: my mistake, I assumed OLPC deployments runnning older Sugar |
12:14 |
cjb |
not sure what you mean -- Sayamindu's maintaining 0.84 for us at the moment, and that's what we're shipping |
12:14 |
|
(he's an employee) |
12:15 |
|
oh! maybe you mean the *deployments* are assuming they don't have to maintain Sugar, rather than OLPC itself? |
12:15 |
walterbender |
needs to go in a few minutes... I'll do an #endmeeting so I don't block the channel. |
12:16 |
cjb |
I think it's true that a lot of deployments don't really know how they'd meaningfully maintain Sugar, they'd much rather do it through OLPC somehow |
12:16 |
tomeu |
cjb: well, any downstreams, but deployers have bigger engineering resources in total than olpc |
12:17 |
cjb |
I see |
12:17 |
walterbender |
let me just say for the record that there are some other sustainability issues in addition to maintenance... a related one, for example, is testing. And documentation. |
12:17 |
tomeu |
cjb: that would work as well |
12:17 |
cjb |
yeah, I agree that deployers should help out with Sugar maintenance more |
12:17 |
tomeu |
cjb: I guess some deployments will want to grow local capacity, others not |
12:17 |
cjb |
tomeu: I think some just really don't know how to start doing that |
12:17 |
|
(and I don't know either) |
12:17 |
walterbender |
tomeu: but we are seeing examples of that... .py for example. |
12:17 |
tomeu |
cjb: in any case, they have told me they want to contribute to upstream |
12:17 |
|
cjb: but it's very hard to explain these things to their bosses |
12:18 |
cjb |
yeah |
12:18 |
tomeu |
they just cannot believe we are doing what we are doing by free |
12:18 |
|
it blows thier minds |
12:18 |
|
so there's a work to be done there that takes time |
12:18 |
cjb |
walterbender: I should get going in a few mins too |
12:19 |
mchua |
has to leave soon |
12:19 |
SeanDaly |
testing, documentation, ... -> even helpline, through for example for-profits in ecosystem |
12:19 |
walterbender |
ok... |
12:19 |
|
#endmeeting |