Sugar meeting

All times shown according to UTC.

Time	Nick	Message
18:39	mchua	#chair sdziallas
18:39		I'm not sure the #chair command works here, but okay.
18:39		sdziallas: Let's finish the picking of Activities so we can build the iso and explain to folks what's going on.
18:40	sdziallas	mchua: OH NOES I CAN HAZ NO CHAIR ;)
18:40		mchua: yeah, right.
18:41		alright, so. we've browse on our list and were discussing which other activities we wanted to add.
18:42	mchua	kicks gobby to connect
18:42		Aha, there we go.
18:42		sdziallas: Yep. What's next after Browse?
18:43	sdziallas	mchua: well... we were Physics / TurtleArt / Record / Write, last time.
18:44		(the latter ones are half-ish broken, though Record... could work)
18:45		#link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sugar_Activities
18:45		(for reference)
18:45	mchua	looking at the list
18:47		TurtleArt is exceptionall well-maintained.
18:47		er, exceptoinally.
18:47		AGH
18:47	sdziallas	nods.
18:47	mchua	very.
18:47	sdziallas	LOL!
18:47		:)
18:47		yeah, so let's add that one.
18:47	mchua	Physics also seems pretty on top of things.
18:48		I wonder if it's worth asking Activity maintainers to submit their things for consideration for SoaS, so we know they actually want to be on there?
18:48	sdziallas	well, it bundles a good chunk of stuff, but since it's already packaged and certainly popular, we should go for it.
18:48	mchua	(Maybe after this initial pick, though.)
18:48		nods.
18:48	sdziallas	I suppose we won't hear from many folks then.
18:48		nods.
18:48	mchua	So TurtleArt is in, Physics is in?
18:48	sdziallas	yes.
18:49	mchua	Okay. Now, Record... I'm a bit torn. It's a great Activity, but we can't... expect it'll work well on a lot of computers with its current state.
18:49	satellit__	chat?
18:49	mchua	Plus a lot of computers don't even have webcams.
18:49	sdziallas	yes, but...
18:49		mchua: so it works here for me with my webcam and I know that Fedora has continuously these "better webcam support" features.
18:49		mchua: but there are things that may randomly break Record.
18:50		(and it's not really maintained, either)
18:50	mchua	How actively is it being maintained?
18:50		Ah.
18:50	sdziallas	So alsroot has been fixing stuff.
18:50	mchua	pulls up gitorious in the background, as well as aslo.
18:50	sdziallas	But he says that the codebase is so complicated that a rewrite would make more sense.
18:51	mchua	The last patch was in June 2009.
18:51	sdziallas	Heh.
18:51	mchua	Before then, it was April 2009.
18:51	sdziallas	That's comparatively young... :p
18:51		semi-joking.
18:51	mchua	It's... yeah, I can believe alsroot's statements.
18:52		So here's my question for both Record and Write, and for other things that may be borderline like this:
18:52		do we lose anything by adding these to the "you can install from ASLO!" encouragement list?
18:52	alsroot	is hacking Record right now, to fix http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1847 and http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1848
18:53	mchua	alsroot, what do you think? You've got a better handle on the state of Record code than we do.
18:53		I think that putting it as a "get from ASLO" does a few things.
18:53		(1) it removes the "ZOMG PACKAGE" extra step, allowing us to have less work and to be more agile about updating the code (maybe) because it only has to get updated in one place.
18:54		(2) it sets a different level of expectation than something that "ships by default" - try this thing out, it may or may not work with your webcam.
18:54		if it does, that's extra bonus cool. If it doesn't, you didn't necessarily expect it to, you were just trying that out.
18:55	sdziallas	(side-noting that most of the activities on these lists are packaged, some aren't, but there are more we haven't even looked at. anyhow, generally +1.)
18:55	alsroot	is wondering when soas switched from getting-from-aslo-as-is to repackage-all-activities
18:55		mchua: the thing is, we need ASLO in anycase
18:56	sdziallas	alsroot: right now. but it's "package-a-small-number-of-activities" - or at least we're turning it that way :)
18:57	mchua	alsroot: Well, it went from "let's stick .xo files in" for the first 2 versions to "we're a Fedora Spin for build infrastructure maintenance sanity" for this upcoming release.
18:58		alsroot: with the Fedora Spin stuff comes the "everything must be packaged" criteria - which is a little extra work, but has the benefit of making sure licenses, etc. are cleaned up, libraries split out, and such.
18:59		alsroot: But the number of Activities we shipped by default are way too many to turn into good packages, and a good portion of those Activities don't work anyway (lack of maintenance, etc) so we're paring down to a small number that do work, that will be packaged (or are already packaged) and maintained, and tested and (informally) supported
18:59		alsroot: and making really, really good "hey, there's this thing called ASLO... why not try it out?" resources for a bunch more.
18:59		I think if part of the out-of-the-box experience /is/ exploring ASLO, that's not a bad thing at all.
18:59		sdziallas: Feel free to jump in and correct me. ;)
19:00	sdziallas	mchua: I'm totally +1 to that.
19:00		(works very well with our "explore" principle, too :)
19:01	mchua	yup.
19:01	alsroot	mchua: well, I guess answer is pretty common, just post activity bugs to bugs.sl.o, can't see better way
19:01	mchua	alsroot: Yeah, but if there's no active maintainer (Browse is an example of this) the bugs don't get fixed. It's... a problem we need to fix.
19:02		alsroot: Basically, as the de facto maintainer of Record, what would you think about Record not shipping by default in SoaS, but instead being one of the "here's ASLO, try downloading this to see if it works" Activities?
19:03		or to rephrase - "any objections?" ;)
19:04	alsroot	mchua: for me, ASLO is the main deployment scheme, I'm tracking what is current verison on ASLO etc. -- at the end I don't see (for me as current Record maintainer) any differences if Record will be shiped w/ soas or not
19:04	mchua	alsroot: Ok, then I think that makes the decision easy. :)
19:05		sdziallas: I propose Record and Write be on our "install from ASLO!" list.
19:05	sdziallas	mchua: granted, approved, noted! could you #action this?
19:05	mchua	sdziallas: In fact, I propose that we just take a look at the remainder of the package list and simply list the ones that are up-to-date in well-maintained fedora packages and pick the shortlist from there.
19:05		#action Record and Write are on the "install from ASLO" documentation-ninjahood list.
19:05	sdziallas	(for now, heh.)
19:05	alsroot	anyway, due to nature of ASLO, public ASLO activities should work on all declared SPs
19:06	sdziallas	(leaving out write is pretty hefty, but since it's not really working... heh:)
19:06	mchua	sdziallas: Write is so broken right now.
19:06		sdziallas: I might be able to pump QA resources into checking it out and trying to push for dev resources to fix it up in time for GA, but... that's a slim shot.
19:06	sdziallas	mchua: right. I found Mel's bugs and... it's so sad, yeah.
19:06		mchua: one step... ;)
19:07	mchua	sdziallas: $5
19:07		alsroot: nod
19:07	sdziallas	mchua: thx! :)
19:07	mchua	sdziallas: okay, so on the remaining list on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sugar_Activities are there any more Activities we know are well-maintained both codewise and as Sugar packages?
19:07		er, RPMs?
19:08		er, packages in Fedora?
19:08		sometimes does not actually speak English.
19:08		sdziallas: I'll note that we can also do a quick first pass here, and then explain stuff to the various lists with criteria for inclusion and how the few Activities that made it on there fit those, and then let people remind us of other well-maintained ones over the weekend.
19:08		Tuesday is Beta freeze, which is soon, but still a few days out.
19:09		So there is a little time for a few people to respond.
19:09	sdziallas	possibly etoys? (pippy & read are broken, too) terminal? visualmatch?
19:09	mchua	And I'd like a working minimal .ks asap.
19:09	sdziallas	grins sadly.
19:09	mchua	sdziallas: Do you know they work well and are maintained well, or are these things we should check into?
19:09	sdziallas	looking at this list under that assumption shows just more drastically how broken all this is.
19:09	mchua	sdziallas: Well, knowing the bugs is the first step to fixing 'em.
19:10	sdziallas	mchua: etoys is taken care of by some RH guy + OLPC folks, so that should be alright.
19:10		mchua: no, I mean "being actively maintained"
19:10		mchua: I wouldn't classify many activities as that.
19:10		mchua: terminal is just... terminal.
19:10	mchua	so there's "the code is actively being developed by an upstream with a responsive maintainer"
19:10	sdziallas	mchua: and visualmatch is maintained by walter, saying all ;)
19:10	mchua	and "the software is packaged in Fedora by a responsive maintainer"
19:11	sdziallas	mchua: heh.
19:11	mchua	sdziallas: you can do the Fedora package maintenance for a few, but not too many.
19:11		sdziallas: or... well, maybe you can, but you shouldn't.
19:11	sdziallas	mchua: well, we need activities to be packaged in a day or two.
19:11	mchua	sdziallas: so we can take a few Activities with really good upstreams that don't package, and etoys seems like a logical fit for that.
19:11		sdziallas: if you don't mind the packaging workload, I mean.
19:12	sdziallas	mchua: I don't see many maintainers doing that responsively.
19:12	mchua	Just like I can tackle Browse's general brokenness with a higher QA/support workload on my part in order to allow us to include it - but I can't do that for more than, perhaps, one other Activity. So the rest of the Activities need to have working code, for me.
19:12	sdziallas	mchua: I think we can just jump on the etoys train, that should work (i.e. not much work for me, actually, since people package that alrady)
19:12		nods.
19:12		...and goes adding etoys.
19:12	mchua	sdziallas: Oh, okay. so Etoys definitely has an active dev/user community, the code's up to date, it's easy to reach them... and Someone Else is packaging it responsibly.
19:12		Ideal case situation.
19:12		Yay!
19:13		Pippy and Read are out, if they're broken.
19:13		VisualMatch...
19:13		looks at git
19:14		I know the CFS deployment has had successful test runs with it - Lynne May has played with it a lot and hasn't been able to break it yet.
19:14		Last updated 2/23, so fairly recent.
19:15	sdziallas	Heh, cool. so it's in :)
19:15	mchua	adds one more check - git, aslo, and trac
19:15		looks at bugs for visualmatch
19:16		huh, we're developing a way for quickly assessing activity health.
19:16	sdziallas	nods. SOP time, heh? :p
19:16	mchua	Yeah, eventually. :)
19:16		I'm going to be lazy and just leave the logs up and the next time this has to be done will probably write a SOP and get someone else to do it.
19:16		I think.
19:17		So, visualmatch not doing so well on the trac front - only one bug ever reported (by you, actually) and never closed, 3 months ago.
19:17		http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1637
19:17		That having been said, it's not a bad bug.
19:17		And I think that's about on par for bug reporting for Activities, sadly.
19:17		Most of them don't have an active Trac workflow, is the impression that I get.
19:18		I'm happy with visualmatch being in.
19:18	sdziallas	oups, I should have taken care of this. (though not many folks will use that way I describe there anyway.)
19:18		okay.
19:18	mchua	sdziallas: let's talk about terminal, and then I want to look at our list of 5 (or 6) and do a quick sanity check.
19:19	sdziallas	mchua: I'd like to run quickly through the list of non-included activities then to make sure we don't miss anything, yeah.
19:19		but terminal first.
19:19	mchua	Ok - pulling up aslo, gitorious, trac...
19:20		http://activities.sugarlabs.or[…]/sugar/addon/4043
19:20		last update 1/16
19:20		http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/terminal
19:20	sdziallas	ah, cool.
19:20	mchua	wade and sayamindu - sparse fixes, but looks like good ones.
19:21		http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/quer[…]ity&col=milestone
19:21	sdziallas	oups!
19:22	mchua	Not bad, actually!
19:22		I'd want to give it a quick smoke test run to make sure it's ok and that we can't casually break it.
19:22		sdziallas: unless you've used it recently and feel good about it.
19:22	sdziallas	mchua: I haven't had issues lately.
19:23		(but didn't look too deeply)
19:23	mchua	sdziallas: Would you feel comfortable about it? or do you want me to take a hammer to it this weekend and we can make the final call tomorrow or sunday after that?
19:24	sdziallas	mchua: I'd be alright with adding it... temporarily.
19:24		mchua: so if it fails, we'll take it out. but for now, it could be good.
19:25	mchua	Okay, i'll put it on my todo list to hit that hard this weekend.
19:25		#action mchua test the living daylights out of Terminal
19:25		and we'll see how it works.
19:25	sdziallas	grins.
19:25	mchua	sdziallas: Ok, so stepping back from the 6 activities we have so far... how many of those are going to be a nontrivial packaging workload on you? (i.e. how many are you going to have to maintain, and of those, are there any that are nontrivial?)
19:26		From my side, Browse may be a potential resource suck in terms of QA and support.
19:26		Terminal is an unknown quantity, I'm prepared for that to be my second (and last) QA/support heavy Activity, but don't expect it to be.
19:26	sdziallas	mchua: etoys is a nobrainer, I don't need to do anything for that.
19:27	mchua	The rest of the things - etoys, turtleart, visualmatch, physics - have other people taking very good care of them, and I can point folks in their direction, so I'm good there.
19:27	sdziallas	browse can become pretty hefty if xulrunner breaks, otherwise it should be good.
19:27		mchua: ah, that's cool :)
19:28		mchua: the other five activities... can be kept up2date with a reasonable amount of work, I guess.
19:29	mchua	So wait, you're packaging all of them?
19:29		sdziallas: (one sec, let me shovel a piece of pizza into my mouth)
19:30	sdziallas	mchua: they are packaged, so I just need to keep them up2date.
19:30		:)
19:37	mchua	back, nmo
19:37		er, nom
19:37		sdziallas: Okay, so you've pretty much just got browse too.
19:38	sdziallas	mchua: heh, yeah, browse is okay.
19:38	mchua	sdziallas: So you feel like you have bandwidth to maintain a little more if needed?
19:38	sdziallas	mchua: yes.
19:38	mchua	doesn't want to push this too far - we should feel like we're shipping with far too little for us to do
19:38		okay.
19:38		sdziallas: you drive - we'll go through the rest of the list now.
19:38	sdziallas	mchua: so I could still take another few activities.
19:38		mchua: since this is - compared to before - much better.
19:39		the James Simmons' ebook activities might make sense. Or Speak. Or...?
19:39	mchua	Okay. Remember some of that bandwidth we need to use for things like "nagging inactive maintainers" and "finding contributors to help" and "documenting lots" and all.
19:39	sdziallas	IRC, heh? let me look at our list again.
19:40	mchua	sdziallas: Basically, what are the activities that it would pretty much break your heart not to include? Then we can pass those through a "does it work?" basic sanity check, and then look at the maintenance and packing state.
19:40		er, packaging.
19:40	sdziallas	mchua: uh, before I forget, we should probably add another package (csound... and stuff, since otherwise people will complain when they use activities from a.sl.o and sound doesn't work)
19:40		mchua: infoslicer?
19:41		log?
19:41		dunno how popular chat is.
19:41		maze? grin
19:42	mchua	Ohhhh, Maze.
19:42	sdziallas	(playgo, but that's a personal one, so I'll grab that myself form a.sl.o)
19:42	mchua	laughs
19:42	sdziallas	(tamtam, because I wasted hours on packaging that sucker)
19:42		so the ebook stuff might... not make sense anyway, since I don't know how much read works.
19:43	mchua	I've been meaning to get my friend Mark to teach me to play more Go.
19:43	sdziallas	I've had issues with it when I tried, but I'm not sure whether it's entirely broken.
19:43	mchua	But yeah, ASLO.
19:43	sdziallas	We could use the PlayGo activity at some point... :)
19:43	mchua	has never really gotten into using Read, so is probably biased here.
19:43	sdziallas	heh. nope, it's alright.
19:43		(just sayin' that we don't need to whine about an ebook activity if we can't read them out of the box)
19:43	mchua	nods.
19:44		That would also mean a lack of "ZOMG PANIC MUST FIND EBOOKS" rushing for this release.
19:44		Which would be lovely to avoid.
19:44	sdziallas	LOL, yeah ;)
19:44		looks at list again.
19:44		tries to put them all in one line
19:44	satellit_	presence service?
19:45	sdziallas	mchua: speak. IRC. infoslicer. log. chat (?). maze. tamtam.
19:45		mchua: for example log might make sense, since otherwise it'd be just hard to grab the logs.
19:46	mchua	sdziallas: I like tamtam - though I'm not sure how active the upstream is. I like Maze - I'd like to do a quick sanity check on upstream health, but it seemed solid when I tried it (informally). Same with Speak, perhaps with a bit more testing. And the Help activity may be worth doing some legwork to update and get in there. Log is also a good one to have around.
19:46		will be shorter
19:46	sdziallas	mchua: help is broken.
19:46	mchua	sdziallas: speak, log, tamtam, maze, maybe-help-if-it-can-be-hammered-into-working-but-not-now.
19:46	sdziallas	mchua: because it only works with 0.84, heh. :/
19:47		mchua: okay. no chance for infoslicer and irc? the latter upstream is... nice, I hear ;)
19:47	mchua	Hm. it's an Activity worth maintaining, though, and one of the first I'd probably want to call for help with.
19:47		But that's later.
19:47	sdziallas	yeah... $5 and stuff.
19:47	mchua	sdziallas: Oh, IRC is poorly maintained by a total slacker who won't be updating it for this release due to lack of time.
19:47	sdziallas	mchua: but I hear it works, no? ;)
19:47	mchua	So if you really want to package it and ship it, all right, but don't expect a lot of dev help available from her. :)
19:48		sdziallas: It does, on a basic level. I'd want to add that to my smoke test list for the weekend, actually.
19:48	sdziallas	(it's already packaged)
19:48		okay, so I'll just add that. if you smoke test stuff, that's... good :)
19:48	walterbender	sdziallas: infoslicer? I had not seen a ticket for that one...
19:48	mchua	sdziallas: Well, also - I'm getting a bit nervous about the size of this list.
19:48		sdziallas: some of these can be "please install via ASLO" things as well.
19:48	sdziallas	walterbender: no no, no tickets... just whether we want to include it ;)
19:49	mchua	I'd argue that if anyting goes in, it should be (1) maze, for quick demo happiness, (2) log, for debugging, and (3) IRC, for quickly getting help online.
19:49		Maybe TamTam as a 4th.
19:49		Because it demos very, very well.
19:49	walterbender	sdziallas: I need to look at the backlog :)
19:49	mchua	If we can smoketest and verify these all seem sane.
19:49		sdziallas: That brings us up to 10, and I would cap there, and put the rest as "hey ASLO is awesome."
19:49	sdziallas	mchua: I like infoslicer, too, but... let me see.
19:50	mchua	too, but... ASLO.
19:50	sdziallas	mchua: 11, even.
19:50	mchua	sdziallas: Everything we add brings more maintenance load.
19:50		11?
19:50	sdziallas	walterbender: we could brief you ;)
19:50	mchua	counts
19:50	sdziallas	mchua: (gobby)
19:50		mchua: oh, no speak? yeah, we could kick that.
19:50	walterbender	sdziallas: if you need some more "maintained" activities, there is alway: TurtleArt, VisualMatch, CardSort, Ruler, Sliderule...
19:51	sdziallas	mchua: tamtam also gives you four activities in one (which I need to fix first)
19:51	mchua	sdziallas: oh yeah. 11. I can count.
19:51	walterbender	mchua: that is already 25% of the way to 20 activities :)
19:51	sdziallas	walterbender: the first two of them are packaged, the other one are... waiting for me :)
19:51	mchua	sdziallas: I'm nervous about this list, it's getting big
19:51	walterbender	sdziallas: and anything Gray Martin in involved in is well maintained...
19:52		sdziallas: and unamindu and jim simmons are pretty diligent with theirs too
19:52	mchua	sdziallas: I know the stuff in here is good, but for most of them I'm not quite sure, just 90% confident.
19:52	walterbender	sdziallas: and alsroot is a machine :)
19:52	sdziallas	mchua: mhm ;)
19:52	mchua	And we can have strong pushes towards ASLO.
19:52		Actually, we should have a strong list of recommended ASLO programs
19:52	sdziallas	walterbender: hehe, yeah - thanks for the help!
19:52		mchua: yes! you're right.
19:52	mchua	that we know with good confidence are kickass and will work
19:52		to give people the "oh wait ASLO has good stuff, there is more quality to discover!" feeling.
19:53	sdziallas	mchua: so, from the gobby list, do you want to kick more?
19:53	walterbender	mchua: if you know with confidence that they are kick ass and will work, why not include them in the first place?
19:53	mchua	walterbender: Because it's not confidence, it's "reasonably high certainty but I'm not entirely sure because we haven't thoroughly tested them."
19:53		And I can handle that for 2 or 3 Activities that ship.
19:53		I can't do it for 12.
19:54	walterbender	mchua: you need to share the load...
19:54		mchua: of course you cannot do it yourself!!!
19:54	sdziallas	walterbender: well, the same goes for packaging... and I haven't been able to share that load, yet.
19:55		walterbender: (meaning that I find myself doing a lot - probably too much - of everything right now)
19:55	walterbender	sdziallas: that is a horse of a different color
19:56	sdziallas	walterbender: the relationship lies close there, because if an activity is dead upstream, I can't do much as a packager.
19:56	walterbender	sdziallas: I bet there are some of Jeff Elkner's students who could help you... we just need to ask them...
19:56	mchua	walterbender: when have you known me to try to do something by myself? ;)
19:57	walterbender	sdziallas: when you need a stick, just ask me :)
19:57	mchua	I'm a lazy bum. :) I also try to underpromise and overdeliver.
19:57	sdziallas	walterbender: hehe :p well, the issue with activity packaging is that it needs to be done immediately - like a day or two after another release is out.
19:57		mchua: gah. I heard that today already once :)
19:58	mchua	sdziallas: So, gobby has my list of 6.
19:58		sdziallas: I think EToys is a great place for us to give a strong, strong call-to-action to not just ASLO, but to the upstream EToys community.
19:58	walterbender	sdziallas: so give me a list of the activities that are causing you packaging issues and I will use my stick...
19:58	sdziallas	mchua: so you mean we should have people pull it form ASLO?
19:58		walterbender: LOL!
19:58	mchua	Which we can do more effectively in a "you - go get this awesome thing, and while you're at it check out these places with more resources!"
19:59		sdziallas: Yeah, I would propose that, because...
19:59		Etoys is complex and sophisticated enough that including it without instructions can confuse folks.
19:59	sdziallas	walterbender: pick randomly one from here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sugar_Activities (I'm semi-joking)
19:59	mchua	But if we set up a strong driving force to the EToys upstream, they get more participants - not just users - and are able to help give the people who take that extra step have a really good first etoys experience.
19:59	walterbender	mchua: is Etoys not packaged because of questions about the license? It would be a shame not to include it preloaded...
20:00	mchua	I want to make the list so slim that it's obvious that not being included on the SoaS image isn't a slight.
20:00		And that people should get more stuff from ASLO. It should be impossible to actually teach a class with the stuff preloaded on this stick.
20:00	walterbender	mchua: I think you need to consider the user experience, not just slighting the developers
20:00	sdziallas	mchua: LOL! (better not let anybody quote you to Sean on that)
20:00	mchua	The point is that you need to poke around and customize, explore - because we are not in a position where we can deliver and support a preloaded experience.
20:01	walterbender	mchua: I don't understand your logic
20:01		mchua: hopefully the stick will reach people with no internet access...
20:01	mchua	walterbender: Hopefully, yes. Not for this release, though.
20:01	walterbender	mchua: it is not production yet, but you are raising the user experience bar...
20:01	mchua	walterbender: Um... I should probably back up. How much context do you have for what we're trying to do right now?
20:02	walterbender	mchua: I read the meeting notes from this morning...
20:02	sdziallas	walterbender: did you fell off your couch? :)
20:02	walterbender	I didn't fall off my couch, but I have to say, I am in Sean's camp
20:02	sdziallas	(fall, even. apparently I can't speak English tonight, either)
20:03	walterbender	I guess I am not tuned in sufficiently to the time tables...
20:03		sdziallas: you are feeling F13 deadline pressures?
20:04	sdziallas	walterbender: well, it's not simply the F13 deadline.
20:04	walterbender	sdziallas: what else impacts your ability to set your own schedule?
20:05	sdziallas	walterbender: I'm afraid that a lot of our core modules are broken and that I'll end up having to maintain 30 activity packages, to release-engineer the kickstart file and to do bug hunting and documentation work.
20:05		walterbender: so I'm alright with the deadlines. because even if we had unlimited time frames, this stuff simply wouldn't get fixed all of a sudden.
20:06		walterbender: I'll get you a bug with a scary example.
20:06	walterbender	sdziallas: I guess I am confused... a chicken and egg problem? F13 and Sucrose 0.88 need to settle BEFORE you can make the next SoaS release.
20:06		and there may be packages in F13 that are not sympathetic to some Activities
20:07	sdziallas	walterbender: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1767
20:07		walterbender: write is currently broken. and nobody would have noticed, because write has no owner in trac.
20:07		walterbender: (the next SoaS release will happen together with F13)
20:08		walterbender: but I'm happy to step back for a minute and listen :) - might make sense to hear what drives you to the other side's camp and how you see this. :)
20:09	mchua	walterbender: yeah, I'm also curious how you see the situation, because we apparently have a different viewpoint here, and maybe there is stuff I'm missing.
20:11	walterbender	sdziallas, mchua: I think that we have a bit of a panic behavior going on right now and that we need to slow down and communicate the situation with the community in order to find the help you need.
20:12		sdziallas: Write is broken on the current SoaS builds? But not in general... because I use it all the time with the latest Sugar...
20:12		so it is probably just a matter of getting the correct pieces into place.
20:12	sdziallas	walterbender: broken, as in: "the screen is obfuscated, you can't really see what you type"
20:12		(the latest snapshots, yup)
20:12		mhm.
20:13	mchua	walterbender: We were actually trying to get a quick draft of the kickstart and the resulting iso out this (EST) morning so we could run it by the various lists and the rest of the community as the start of a conversation.
20:13	walterbender	sdziallas: I'll grab a snapshot and take a look...
20:13	mchua	walterbender: Initially, I was thinking that the whole "revise .ks, make .iso, email the lists and say "hey, what do you think?" would take... maybe 2 hours, 3 at most."
20:13	walterbender	it could be a mismatch with either abiword or metacity...
20:13		but I doubt it is a problem in Sugar itself.
20:13	mchua	walterbender: and we were having that convo (logged) in public channels so that folks could see what we were doing.
20:13	walterbender	Gary is the maintainer of the Sugar side of the problem.
20:14	mchua	walterbender: but we kept getting (very good) questions on why, and stopping to explain what was up, and so it stretched out into... longer than 3 hours.
20:14	walterbender	mchua: just because it is public doesn't mean anyone is tuned in :)
20:15	mchua	walterbender: Right. Hence the intention to quickly make the kickstart, then the iso, then hit the lists and then listen.
20:15	walterbender	mchua: I don't think it is widely known that you guys are in a bind.
20:15	mchua	walterbender: Looking back on this morning, we should have said "just wait 2 hours and let us make the kickstart and explain what we're trying out, then we'll talk."
20:15		walterbender: I agree - it isn't, it should be, that is a problem, and we need to be better in the future about communicating those deadlines.
20:16	walterbender	mchua: OK. I'll get out of your hair (and try to look into the Write situation tonight)
20:16	mchua	walterbender: Doesn't change the beta freeze date being Tuesday though. :)
20:16	walterbender	needs to make dinner...
20:16	mchua	walterbender: Well - before you go, this is something I /am/ concerned about... do you know if we're going to be actively screwing anyone over if this SoaS version ships with very few Activities
20:17		(even if there's a big push for a lot of supporting documentation that's kid-and-teacher-tested)?
20:17	walterbender	mchua: not screwing anyone over, but limiting the amount of testing and feedback you'll get
20:17	mchua	Do you know of any deployments who actively expect this next version to have a lot of activities, and can't for some reason use the earlier versions, or aslo?
20:17		walterbender: Okay. That's what I thought, and what I hoped, and that's all right.
20:17	walterbender	mchua: I don't think this is a deployment issue.
20:18	mchua	We'll get testing and feedback on a smaller number of Activities, most likely, but we can drive the testing/feedback process far better for those few.
20:18	walterbender	mchua: deployments for the most part aren't using SoaS...
20:18	mchua	walterbender: (I don't want to keep you from cooking dinner - I'll be around for a while if you want to come back later.)
20:19		walterbender: Yep, deployments aren't using SoaS. We would like them to eventually. The purpose of SoaS is to make a product for deployment, and each release should get us closer to that.
20:19		Ideally, we'd have a large number of high-quality releases with actively engaged upstreams and resources that "pull" users into contact with those upstreams.
20:19		er, high-quality activities, I mean.
20:20		But we don't have that yet.
20:20		And my premise is that:
20:20	walterbender	but SoaS is a great way to introduce the idea to more people and to expect that after all the pain of making a stick and figuring out how to boot and then finding the wifi drivers because they aren't in F13 and etc to then have to go to ASLO to get activities enough to get the idea is asking too much. we already loose too many people at step 1: downloading SoaS...
20:20		mchua: at least half the machines I run SoaS on have no network...
20:20	mchua	instaed of having the intermediate step of "a large number of mixed-quality activities with mostly not-so-actively-engaged upstreams and nearly no resources that "pull" resources into contact with those upstreams..."
20:21		the intermediate step of "a small number of high-quality activities with actively engaged (blah blah blah)" is more likely to get us to the ideal point.
20:21		reads up
20:21	walterbender	mchua: well, again, I don't know what is driving the timetables... I'd personally opt for slowing down and getting the activities qualified.
20:21		but if that is not possible...
20:21	mchua	walterbender: Hm - your case sounds similar to Sean's, a self-contained demo.
20:22		walterbender: The timetables are driven by the Fedora release schedule, which we have to adhere to as a Spin.
20:22		walterbender: (which brings us a lot of infrastructure advantages - the load of maintaining a build system is off our backs, etc)
20:22	walterbender	mchua: well, that may be the problem... we perhaps are one release too soon for being a spin...
20:23		or a few hands short...
20:23		it is too much pressure on sdz
20:23		it is a fine goal, but maybe that is where we bend
20:23	mchua	walterbender: How about this - it sounds like we really do want two separate things, a demo stick (where 'quantity' is the important thing, and mixed quality is more ok because it'll be a more "try it out" thing, or in the hands of an experienced demoer)
20:24		walterbender: and a "working towards a solid deployment" stick (where 'quality and upstream engagement' is the important thing, and quantity of activities is small because we only have enough resources to help a few cross that high bar on a short timescale)
20:24		walterbender: the second, imo, is the spin
20:24		walterbender: the first could quickly be done later - at any time, really - as a quick remix
20:24		sdziallas: ^^ ?
20:24	sdziallas	mchua:I like that idea, actually. it might make sense to promote the Fedora version as "rock-solid deployment but can haz help?" thing and to build a different one using that as a base... just thinking, not sure.
20:25		mchua: so yes, I'd say that could be an option - and would even prevent us from "trying to innovate and stablize at the same time" :)
20:25	mchua	walterbender: That way, you and Sean have the demo sticks you need. And we can market that as... well, it'll basically be SoaS with a bunch of stuff added to it, so it's like "SoaS after you've customized it a lot more"
20:26		walterbender: that way also, the additional stuff on the demo stick wouldn't need to be Fedora packages - we could throw in random .xos, change things on a whim, not be tied to the Fedora release schedule for it, etc.
20:26	walterbender	mchua: well, if we will do the remix, then it really doesn't matter... make the "spin" be as austere as you want... but don't advertize that as what end users should be exploring...
20:26	sdziallas	mchua: exactly.
20:26	walterbender	mchua: for that matter, I think we should have two versions of the helper cd available,,, one with selinux=0
20:26	mchua	chuckles
20:27	walterbender	mchua: I am serious.
20:27	mchua	walterbender: Oh! Why?
20:27		is missing context here
20:34		Well, either way we should go finish the kickstart file and get this convo out to the lists, albeit some hours belatedly.
20:54		(for those watching in the channel, sdziallas and I are just attacking gobby right now and trying to finish a kickstart file so we can actually open up the convo)
21:03	satellit__	sdziallas:The Fedora Unity Project is proud to announce the release of new ISO Re-Spins of Fedora 12. from Bernie in soas lists
21:19	bernie	satellit__: yeah, I cc'd him
21:19	mchua	bernie: you can make remixes too, you know ;)
21:21	bernie	mchua: I'm already cooking too many builds for paraguay :-)
21:22	mchua	The kickstart file is done and building and we'll see what iso we get.
21:24		drafting explanation in http://etherpad.com/soas-experiment
21:24		sdziallas: ^
21:25	sdziallas	mchua: awesome! I'll join you in a sec.
21:25		putting the kickstart in git right now
05:05	satellit__	sdziallas: IRC will not start on soas-3-20100319. workaround is to delete /usr/share/sugar/activities/IRC/activity directory, then DL from ASLO..then it works
09:07		sdziallas: I sent e-mail to soas and you about IRC on new .iso did you see it?
09:59	mchua	satellit__: Thanks for the heads-up on the ticket - we're a bit swamped right now, but I'm going to be looking at the IRC Activity this weekend.
09:59		As part of the "wow, it's been a long time since I was a proper maintainer for that thing" remediation.
10:00	satellit__	mchua: a quick fix is not to include it in build (ks) for now till you have time to fix it
10:01		it can be downloaded from ASLO and it works
10:01		I filed ticket
10:01	mchua	satellit__: Good to know - and thanks for the ticket!
10:01		satellit__: I'm staggering under the load of $dayjob stuff that I'm behind on right now, but when I clear that, I'll be taking a look at the activity.
10:02		satellit__: So... just hold tight for a few days.
10:02	satellit__	thanks for all of your great work : )
10:02		* lurking to help test : )
10:03	mchua	satellit__: I may take you up on that. ;)
10:03	satellit__	ok
10:36	christianmarcsch	hi everyone
14:20	soasUSB-9c2d	test of edited irc auto channels on soas-3 USB
15:03	satellit__	sdzaillas: I have a question. I have built a soas-3-20100319.img of a 2 GB USB that has IRC correction and updates plus an updated TA and analyze. 7 applications. I can upload a compressed file to Tgillard. Everything works should I upload it for testing?
15:08	soasUSB-9c2d	this is the USB
15:09		on an my EeePC900 netbook
10:06	erikos_	tomeu: do we start the meeting?
10:06		is on fire!
10:08	tomeu	hi!
10:08		hurries
10:08		#startmeeting
10:08		heh, guess it cannot say who started it?
10:08		guess mchua or sdziallas
10:09	sdziallas	wth?
10:09		#endmeeting
10:09		this isn't me, it seems.
10:09		mchua: hullo! ;)
10:10	mchua	whoops.
10:10		#endmeeting
09:51	sdziallas	#chair mchua sdziallas
09:51		#topic kickstart history storytime
09:51		just for reference, we're trying to work out how to keep SoaS sustainable.
09:51		so yeah, early days. strawberry.
09:52		we shipped the major fructose activities as .rpm files (you couldn't remove those without root permissions because they lived in /usr/share/sugar/activities) and a chunk of other activities as .xo files.
09:52	mchua	Would that have made it not eligible for spinhood?
09:52		the .xos, I mean.
09:52	sdziallas	for blueberry, we moved to an .xo file-only approach.
09:53		mchua: ayup, exactly.
09:53		mchua: neither strawberry nor blueberry would have qualified as a spin.
09:53	mchua	How did the .xo approach work out?
09:53		Why are we a spin now?
09:53	sdziallas	since mirabelle is going to be a Fedora Spin, we're locked down to use .rpms.
09:54		mchua: it didn't work too badly. basically, we hadn't to worry about activities. from a release engineering point of view, it was half-ish crap, though.
09:54		mchua: maybe this is also a lack of... well, here's the thing:
09:54		before we simply pulled the latest activity from a.sl.o (for blueberry).
09:55		that worked or didn't. but if something didn't work, it was the activity maintainers fault (at least with quite some certainty).
09:56		now since we moved to packaging them (basically since Fedora needs a solution anyways and since bundling libraries is Not Such A Good Idea), we're lacking... ressources.
09:56		(oh, and the blueberry release was still worse than the strawberry one, btw)
09:56	mchua	Worse in what way?
09:57	sdziallas	people got excited about strawberry. there was nothing to get excited about in blueberry. it sucked. the whole release process was screwed (time-wise). I'm still telling the story of me rebuilding the final images frantically in the middle of the night before I took the plane to Toronto.
09:58		I'm having a hard time defining what it was, but yeah...
09:58	mchua	Ok, yeah, I remember you doing that. :)
09:59		And being a spin... is a good idea because... packaging is good?
09:59	sdziallas	And now I've moved myself into a situation where I've even more to do (expecting that more people jump on board, but that didn't happen) - which means that Mirabelle has a good chance of sucking, too.
09:59		Well, I need to do it.
09:59		It's the only way of satisfying both Fedora's and Sugar's needs at the same time.
10:00		And yes, it's a good idea because we've nightly builds (which aren't being thoroughly tested) and the release simply happens at one point.
10:00		Maybe I'm just afraid of failing. But blueberry was already fail. Time to learn how to do it better.
10:01		Maybe I should have listened to Peter and folks. Gah.
10:01		What if we moved SoaS out of Fedora again and had simply a Sugar Development Spin?
10:01		One that contained only very few activities but something that people could test stuff with?
10:02		Sugar on a Stick wouldn't be locked down to a release date and we could still ponder with .xo files as we wanted.
10:02	mchua	What does being a spin get us?
10:03		What I vaguely recall is that we get to use Fedora's build infrastructure (which is nice, we don't have to maintain that)
10:03	sdziallas	(Mel is in question mode, I like that :)
10:03	mchua	which means that nightly images magically appear based on the uploaded kickstart file.
10:03	sdziallas	right. so nightly builds (which we could setup ourselves)
10:03		yeah. and we wouldn't need to push the build button for the final release.
10:03		but I think it'd be actually good to be able to do that.
10:03	mchua	Aye, but that's extra infrastructure maintenance and being a sysadmin is not nor should it be part of our core capacity.
10:03		It'd be good?
10:03		How?
10:04	sdziallas	We wouldn't release crap just no matter what.
10:04		And people could still test the nightly builds.
10:04		(if SoaS wasn't a spin, but "Sugar Something" was)
10:04		but that would mean two solutions.
10:04		I was originally pretty happy to have achieved the situation I'm currently in.
10:05		Because I felt I'd be doing a good chunk of work more for some time, but would be able to hand that off then.
10:05		(which is mostly: packaging)
10:06		The current situation is quite reasonable from a simple rel-eng POV.
10:06		But the more I think, the more I look back at the Strawberry times.
10:06		And then I realize that this approach simply didn't scale.
10:06		Which is why I made this step.
10:06		And then I notice that this thing here doesn't scale either.
10:06		Because nobody cares.
10:07		But to have people care, to get them involved, they need to be excited.
10:07		Mirabelle is not going to have anything exciting.
10:07		And then I wonder where we're heading.
10:07	mchua	thinks sustainability is exciting.
10:08		or rather, "watching Sebastian burn out" would be... exciting in a VERY BAD WAY
10:08		so, ah, lack of that excitement is... good. And thus exciting. Being able to grow a community to help out with this is exciting.
10:08	sdziallas	Heh. Living on the edge.
10:08		Yes it is.
10:08		But it also needs to be exciting for the contributors.
10:08		I don't worry much about me being exciting.
10:08		s/exciting/excited
10:08	mchua	Oh, we can give them shiny pictures of happy cute kids. ;)
10:09	sdziallas	grins. heh ;)
10:09	mchua	One of the reasons I'm so keen on getting deployments contributing.
10:09	sdziallas	yeah, right.
10:09	mchua	Anyway. For this release, SoaS is a spin.
10:10	sdziallas	ayup. and presumably thereafter, too, unless somebody pays a me a million bucks to screw college. ;)
10:10	mchua	Because of the necessity of reducing infrastructure maintenance and workload.
10:10	sdziallas	nods.
10:11	mchua	Okeydokey.
10:11		So we're stuck with a spin for this release.
10:11		Which means we have to package everything that goes in SoaS.
10:11		Which in some ways is extra work and all, true.
10:11		But in other ways is good, because it means all the code will need to pass Fedora guidelines and be relatively clean and modular, and properly licensed.
10:12		speculates a bit, is that the right reasoning?
10:12	sdziallas	this is the reasoning behind it.
10:12		if you look at some stuff, it's quite horrible, though, but it works.
10:12	mchua	Okay. So the issue with the kickstart file now is that a lot of the packages that are listed in it just Don't Work
10:12		and the maintainers aren't updating them
10:12		and there's no way you can do it all by yourself.
10:12		(By Tuesday.)
10:13		(which is, for those following along with this log, Beta Freeze for Fedora, which we need to follow since we are a Spin.)
10:13	sdziallas	(I figured that final freeze is the cut-off date, so we've some time, but having stuff working by the end of the week would be good)
10:13		well, the thing is that I should be doing most of the packaging related issues...
10:13	mchua	#link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki[…]s#Creating_a_Spin
10:13	sdziallas	...and then NAG everybody about the issues I know nothing about.
10:14		however, reducing some kind of load might be good, too.
10:14	mchua	Ok. So stuff needs to be trimmed so that you can handle the packaging stuff and the nagging-load.
10:14		(I'll help with the nagging.)
10:14	sdziallas	Okay. Thanks :)
10:14		, reducing some kind of load might be good, too.
10:14	mchua	sdziallas: is this the point in time where we go ruthlessly slashing the kickstart file? ;)
10:15	sdziallas	uh, bad c&p. sorry.
10:15		mchua: mhm, possibly.
10:15	mchua	opens up ze gobby
10:15	sdziallas	(I'm currently trying to figure out in the background why we won't have a sugar bootscreen for this release, heh.)
10:15		does, too.
10:16		mchua: you want to go for sunjammer? I can run a sobby session there.
10:16	mchua	Ok, I have the doc up, it's called fedora-livecd-soas...
10:16		...oh, that works too
10:16	sdziallas	mchua: or which server should I connect to?
10:17	mchua	sdziallas: Sure, just tell me what to connect to when it's up
10:18	sdziallas	mchua: sunjammer.sugarlabs.org
10:19	mchua	sdziallas: Ok, I have a doc up.
10:19		I'm going to work under the assumption that we both have the .ks file locally available to us, so I'm going to...
10:20		(gimme a second to go SLASH SLASH SLASH)
10:20	sdziallas	(good to add yourself there, yes :)
10:20		what is important to know is that @sugar-desktop still contains activities.
10:20		namely, all fructose activities.
10:21	mchua	sighs
10:21	sdziallas	so we'll either need to do -sugar-write or so or take the base sugar packages and name them directly (which should work)
10:21		LOL!
10:21	mchua	How about that, then?
10:21		SLASH AND BURN
10:21	sdziallas	pulls up comps
10:21		lols
10:22		alright, I'm pushing the package list in gobby now for you to see.
10:22	mchua	oh holy god.
10:22	sdziallas	we can kick all the optionals
10:22		they are not getting pulled anyways.
10:23	mchua	how about lines 18 - 28?
10:23		can they go without breaking anything that's left?
10:23	sdziallas	well, they are the fructose activities.
10:23	mchua	so? ;)
10:23	sdziallas	so we should probably just add "sugar"
10:24		and remove these.
10:24	mchua	ta-dah
10:24		do we need gdm
10:24		?
10:24	sdziallas	BURN BABY BURN
10:24		or some kind of replacement, yes.
10:25		we might want to be able to login, right? ;)
10:25	mchua	What for? It boots directly into Sugar, I don't see a GNOME login screen.
10:25		is ignorant.
10:25		we can't do that in a virtual terminal?
10:25	sdziallas	yes, but you need something to log the liveuser account automatically in.
10:25	mchua	Ohh.
10:25		Gotcha.
10:25		Okay. Is gdm working, is it a pain to maintain in any way?
10:25	sdziallas	just starting X doesn't work, I hear (because of some policy / security foo things)
10:25		I packaged this: http://www.enricozini.org/sw/nodm/
10:26		looks like exactly what we want, but I haven't been able to get it to work.
10:26	mchua	It's used by... just about everyone else in Fedora, so I would expect it to be well-maintained without our intervention, but I could be wrong.
10:26		looks
10:26		what's the benefit of that over gdm?
10:26	sdziallas	it has NO dependencies.
10:26		or at least it doesn't pull in $random_bloaty_gnome_crap.
10:26	mchua	whereas gdm has... right. Gotcha.
10:26	sdziallas	grins.
10:26		but since it's non-working, we'll need to go with gdm for now.
10:26	mchua	Okay, um... well, yeah, I'll file nodm as an enhancement we want for v4.
10:27	sdziallas	(and probably put a comment to look at nodm at some point)
10:27		ah, awesome!
10:27	mchua	you gobby, I'll trac
10:27	sdziallas	deal!
10:29		(I'll do a ticket cleaning session in trac at some point this weekend, too)
10:29	mchua	sdziallas: what do I do for the distribution/version field, and the milestone field? how do I make sure this is a soas bug?
10:30	sdziallas	mchua: SoaS is the component
10:30		(this is important - when I clean up the wiki, I'll make sure to put this up highly)
10:30		mchua: distro is fedora - at least here
10:30		and milestone is currently unspecified
10:31	mchua	looks
10:31		sdziallas: and I should be ccing sdz, right?
10:31		or do you automagically get it?
10:32	sdziallas	you don't need to, because he and mchua automagically get tickets assigned to the component "soas"
10:32		:)
10:33		mchua: btw, here's what I'm thinking for v3 - something like "Do Your Own SoaS! - we included the base, now it's your turn. EXPLORE! - grab whatever you want from our portal, activities.sugarlabs.org"
10:33	mchua	Bam.
10:33		yep.
10:33	sdziallas	grins. BAM. :)
10:34	satellit_	browse and terminal will be included?
10:34	mchua	sdziallas: btw, do we know why nodm doesn't work?
10:34		sdziallas: actually, nm, I'll put the ticket in and you can put more details later if there's time, it's not for this release
10:34		satellit_: Maybe, we haven't gotten to that decision point yet. ;)
10:35	sdziallas	I think it might not be up2date for Fedora or there's some other strangeness going on, maybe some missing config file. will need to investigate at some point.
10:35	mchua	Okay, I'll just put in the bug... one sec...
10:35		sdziallas: anything else that's needed to start SoaS and run Sugar (with no Activities yet), period?
10:36	sdziallas	mchua: well...
10:36	satellit_	they are needed to go to aslo and edit
10:36	sdziallas	mchua: gvfs is needed to show external hard drives.
10:36		mchua: gnome-power-manager is needed for... guess what? :) power management
10:37		and you don't have audio right now, but since we don't have any activities, that's alright.
10:37	mchua	#link http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1849
10:37		for the record
10:38	sdziallas	mchua: you rock!
10:38	mchua	satellit_: Yep, and those are both good arguments for adding them back in later, but we haven't gotten to that part yet.
10:38		satellit_: Right now, we're trying to start with the bare bones of "what will make Sugar work at all?"
10:38	satellit_	ok anaconda (for liveinst)?
10:39	mchua	sdziallas: I'm noticing we're using lots of GNOME stuff here, is that where we want to end up?
10:39		has nothing against GNOME, just likes using slimmer things if available
10:39		(...says the person who runs KDE)
10:39	sdziallas	mchua: here? you mean when talking gvfs and power-manager?
10:39		mchua: (right now) :)
10:39	mchua	sdziallas: Yeah, g(anything)
10:40	sdziallas	mchua: well, that's probably because we're close to gnome... so I guess we'll need to live with that.
10:40		mchua: I recall tomeu advocating for these two packages.
10:40	mchua	satellit_: hold on a bit - write up a list of packages you'd like considered in the background, and when we're done with this first pass through "what do we need to make Sugar work at all?" then we can take a look at yours, to see if we're missing anything.
10:40	tomeu	yeah, rewriting those wheels doesn't look like a good idea to me
10:40	mchua	satellit_: (we're doing a non-Activities pass first, and then an Activities pass.)
10:41		tomeu: Agreed.
10:41		sdziallas: Okay, they're in, where do they go?
10:41	sdziallas	tomeu: I'm trying to have less on my plate, heh :) rewriting gvfs doesn't sound like... a good idea, agreed.
10:41		mchua: I'd put them into system, maybe with an explanation why we want them?
10:41		mchua: (I like that you added that for gdm, too)
10:41	mchua	and by doing this I get to learn about kickstart files yay!
10:42	sdziallas	hehe :)
10:42	mchua	sdziallas: what else is needed to run Sugar?
10:42		Is that it?
10:42	sdziallas	I think that's it.
10:43	mchua	looks at old ks just in case
10:43		satellit_: Okeydokey, what's your list?
10:43	sdziallas	Because the rest gets pulled in through dependencies.
10:43	mchua	satellit_: (non-Activities first)
10:43	sdziallas	(as, installing sugar pulls $good_chunk_of_stuff)
10:43	satellit_	mucha: liveusb-creator, gedit, wget, yum, gvfs
10:43	mchua	sdziallas: Woo boy. Okay.
10:43		Ah, package management.
10:44		looks at time
10:44		sdziallas: shall we move to Activities and try to wrap before the SLOBs meeting?
10:44	satellit_	plus browse and terminal
10:44	sdziallas	mchua: sounds good to me.
10:44	mchua	satellit_: (it's mchua, btw - my screen won't flash for 'mucha' ;)
10:45		satellit_: ok - rationale for each? we can take them one by one.
10:45	satellit_	mchua: sorry : /
10:45		gvfs for disk access
10:45	mchua	satellit_: np :)
10:46	satellit_	terminal for editing and access to yum
10:46	mchua	satellit_: we have gvfs already, so that's set.
10:46		satellit_: good to have that confirmation.
10:46	satellit_	wget for uploading
10:46		gedit for easier editing than vi
10:46	mchua	satellit_: actually, the terminal thing brings up a good point... do we need the terminal activity or can the current things in the kickstart file give us a VT?
10:46		sdziallas: ^?
10:47	satellit_	liveusb-creator which can be "sugarixed" as an applicaion in sugar
10:47	mchua	satellit_: That would be nice, but it's not necessary to run Sugar
10:47		I'd think of that as an enhancement for later if we have bandwidth to maintain more.
10:47		Right now we're going for super minimalist.
10:47	sdziallas	mchua: you could press alt + Fx and do stuff there, afaics.
10:47	satellit_	http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/C[…]e_liveusb-creator
10:48	mchua	sdziallas: Ok, so we don't really need any other terminal stuff.
10:48		sdziallas: does the image already come with yum? Because if it does, that solves just about everything else
10:48		sdziallas: people can install their own stuff, and we're not on the hook for supporting it
10:48	sdziallas	mchua: we're including a base kickstart file - and need to do that - so that you get a good chunk of packages directly.
10:49	mchua	satellit_: A sugarized liveusb creator - and gedit - and so forth - would be nice to have, but that's exactly it; they would be "nice to have," not "nothing will work if we do not have them."
10:49	sdziallas	(such as yum, which comes in one of these groups we pull)
10:49		@base-x
10:49		@base
10:49		@core
10:49		@hardware-support
10:49		@fonts
10:49		@input-methods
10:49		kernel
10:49		memtest86+
10:49	mchua	satellit_: So I'm going to say we should pass on them for this round, because they aren't stricly necessary - and then perhaps provide instructions for how people can install it themselves, for this version.
10:49	satellit_	how do I access yum without terminal?
10:50	mchua	satellit_: if maintainers step up to make sure those things work for future versions, great! Then those can be added to the v4 kickstart.
10:50		notes we should probably set criteria for inclusion in soas
10:50		#note We need to set inclusion criteria for SoaS for v4 and beyond.
10:50	sdziallas	that sounds like a good plan!
10:50	mchua	satellit_: Virtual terminals. if you're running Linux right now, press Ctrl+F5
10:51	satellit_	ok
10:51	mchua	satellit_: (or Ctrl-F(anynumber))
10:51		satellit_: (Ctrl-F1 will usually get you back to GNOME or KDE or whatever wm you're using)
10:51		...gee, I hope he read the "how to get back" directions before he... went off to virtual terminals.
10:51	satellit_	in soas...how
10:51	mchua	oh, good. :)
10:52		satellit_: Same thing. Ctrl-F(key).
10:52		This is standard stuff on Linux systems.
10:52	satellit_	thanks...will test later on ubuntu netbook here
10:52	mchua	satellit_: Whoops. It may be Ctrl+Alt+F(number).
10:53		...yep, Ctrl+Alt+F(number). Sorry about that, I mix up my keyboard shortcuts sometimes.
10:53	satellit_	: )
10:53	mchua	satellit_: it just takes a moment, you could easily check it out now.
10:53		sdziallas: Anyway, in the interests of time - can we say "yum is already included, people can download whatever else they need from there"?
10:53	sdziallas	mchua: ayup!
10:54	mchua	#agreed people can yum install further programs for this release if needed, we should provide instructions on how to do so
10:54		foresees fun with publican
10:54		forsees? foresees? whatever the right spelling is.
10:54	sdziallas	YAY YAY YAY :)
10:54	mchua	sdziallas: Okay, wow, 8 minutes left
10:54		sdziallas: ACTIVITIES GO
10:55	sdziallas	alrighty!
10:55		do you just want to head through each or how do we do this best?
10:56	mchua	sdziallas: Start with 0 and then add them back - what's the 1st Activity you'd add back, the 2nd, and then so on?
10:56		sdziallas: actually we could pause here and take up the question again when SLOBs is over.
10:56	sdziallas	mchua: that would probably give us some time... yeah.
10:56		sounds good.
10:56	mchua	#info where we're leaving off: Activity selection
10:56		Aaaand I will take the logs and put them on some wiki page somewhere...
10:56		#endmeeting
10:56	sdziallas	awesome! mchua, thanks :)
10:57	mchua	...wait, meetbot?
10:57	sdziallas	mhm.
10:57		#endmeeting
11:56		#chair mchua sdziallas
11:56		#topic kickstart part 2
11:56		here we go!
11:57	mchua	When we last left our heroes, they were DRASTICALLY SLASHING the SoaS kickstart file to make the mainenance load more sane.
11:57	sdziallas	so this is going to be the activity part!
11:57		nods.
11:57	mchua	introductory animation, cheerful trumpet music
11:57		Anyway.
11:58	sdziallas	:)
11:58	mchua	sdziallas: do we need to put anything in the "multimedia" or "internet" sections or should we just delete those?
11:58		(also, hardware, sounds, and fonts)
11:58	sdziallas	well, unless we need alpine, internet can go awawy.
11:59	mchua	why would we need alpine?
11:59	sdziallas	multimedia might be needed, depending on which activities we add.
11:59		to read emails :)
11:59		j/k
11:59		so multimedia is a little tougher, since some of the activities might actually need or not need stuff from there.
12:00	mchua	Okay, so we'll leave the section in and if we add Activities that need things we can put them in.
12:00		and if the section's empty at the end of this exercise, it goes way.
12:00	sdziallas	hardware was just there to support more hardware (which would be nice to have, I guess)
12:00	mchua	er, away.
12:00	sdziallas	nods, that sounds fair
12:00	mchua	Mm, yeah, hardware support sounds good... how are those packages to update/maintain?
12:00	sdziallas	(we could make sound and multimedia go into the same category, though)
12:01	mchua	are those hardware packages being taken care of by other people for normal-Fedora anyway, and we can piggyback along?
12:01	sdziallas	well, the b43 thing is maintained by... somebody (so non-sugar), i think Peter was looking into that.
12:01		so this is... exactly! the case there.
12:01		and the libertas firmware is for the XO, so we shouldn't need to worry there.
12:01		nukes sound (and will put that stuff later into multimedia)
12:02	mchua	sdziallas: your call, I'd say. If you're confident they will take 0 maintenance, more hardware sounds good.
12:02	sdziallas	so I add the two packages for additional hardware support?
12:02		yup.
12:02		nothing to worry about, I guess.
12:03		next one. fonts.
12:03		Walter filed a ticket on that some time ago, asking to include these.
12:04		http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1119
12:04		should we simply add them and link this ticket for reference?
12:04	mchua	looks
12:04		sdziallas: as long as $someone_else is maintaining the package, sure.
12:05	sdziallas	mchua: yup, that's the case.
12:05	mchua	sdziallas: yay packages that require no work from us!
12:05		oaky.
12:05		er, okay.
12:05		can't type this morning.
12:05	sdziallas	mchua: mostly, the activities are what cause trouble, I guess
12:05		mchua: mhm :)
12:05		mchua: uh, actually we need to add the boot screen package, too (can wait, though)
12:07	mchua	Oh, go for it
12:07		I wanted to save Activities for last
12:09		sdziallas: lemme know when you've got everything except activities in, I suppose.
12:09	sdziallas	alright!
12:09		well, the rest is... depending on the activities, or negotiable.
12:12		(which is like "do we need a flash replacement?" or "a screen recorder?" "or a second installer?" or "a way of duplicating the image?")
12:12	mchua	Activities, then.
12:12		Ah, okay.
12:12	sdziallas	(if the answer is no to all of them, I think we're GO for activities)
12:12	mchua	I'd say no to all of them.
12:12		and if people want that stuff, they can maintain it.
12:13	sdziallas	heh.
12:13	mchua	This is "operation: let's be lazy bums."
12:13	sdziallas	well, it's not like I'm maintaining all of this, but it doesn't make sense to ship stuff that doesn't get used, either.
12:13	mchua	er, I mean... "in order to ensure the high quality of the software that ships with Sugar on a Stick, we are making strategic decisions to..."
12:13		Right.
12:14	sdziallas	can we turn that operation in a movie at some point? :D
12:14		j/k
12:14		alright. so. activities.
12:14	SeanDaly	hi mchua, sdziallas
12:14	sdziallas	waves to SeanDaly
12:15	mchua	Hey, SeanDaly. We cancelled the SLOBs meeting.
12:15		(about an hour ago)
12:15		sdziallas: Yep, Activities.
12:16	SeanDaly	ah, didn't know, I don't get invites anymore and didn't see a mail
12:16	mchua	sdziallas: let's start with 0 and then add things in until we're not wincing too much anymore.
12:16		I'd like to try to stay at 5 or less, but... we'll see.
12:17	sdziallas	mchua: whoa... heh, okay ;)
12:17		mchua: browse is a must, I hear.
12:17	mchua	Yeah, if we can only ship with one, I would ship with Browse, from a "this makes Sugar functional" point of view.
12:17		It's also used to install other Activities, which... es muy importante.
12:17	sdziallas	nods. it enables you to do a.sl.o... right.
12:17		goes adding that.
12:18	mchua	sdziallas: so we know how much bandwidth we have to maintain other activities... how bad is Browse to package and maintain as a package?
12:18		Code-wise, the bugs scare me. It's not an easy activity to develop.
12:18	sdziallas	mchua: well, browse is orphaned upstream.
12:18		mchua: so there are no updates anyways, heh.
12:19	mchua	sdziallas: dumb question - why not use $another_browser? What's special about Browse?
12:19		(I think I know the answer, but humor me)
12:19	satellit__	firefox sugarized it is in aslo?
12:19	sdziallas	mchua: well, if surf (as in: the webkit one) was better integrated with sugar, I'd go for that. but it's pretty dead, too.
12:20		mchua: to answer your question about maintaining it: browse is insofar special as the slightest change in xulrunner (in Fedora) gives us pain. but since xulrunner is pretty strongly maintained by the RH folks (except that they failed to care for F12), I think we... can't do much here.
12:21	mchua	winces slightly to hear about that history, but... well... okay.
12:21	sdziallas	mchua: basically: if anybody develops and maintains a new activity for browsing the net, I'd be more than happy to go for that instead.
12:21	mchua	satellit__: Dunno, you could check in ASLO. ;)
12:21		satellit__: Firefox is huge and slow compared to Browse, though. So I'd be reluctant to make the swap. The UI also doesn't translate well to smaller screens, in my experience.
12:22		sdziallas: Okay, so... should we put Browse in this time, live with it, file a ticket to either find a maintainer or to look for something better for v4?
12:22	sdziallas	mchua: yup, sounds good! against what will the ticket be filed, though? SoaS? Browse?
12:22		mchua: (the sad thing is: our most important activity is orphaned!)
12:22	satellit__	it is in aslo....need password to do dl
12:23	sdziallas	(heh, I think I'm both of us might be blogging about this session, so... heh.)
12:23	mchua	sdziallas: SoaS, because we need to find "a web-browsing solution" which may or may not be Browse. As part of that ticket we'll have to be poking the Browse folks, but we'll also explore other options.
12:23	sdziallas	mchua: sounds reasonable!
12:24	mchua	goes to file that ticket
12:24	sdziallas	thanks :)
12:26	mchua	So it's basically no maintenance work from the packaging side this round.
12:26		But may be a heavy load on testing and support.
12:26		That's okay with me.
12:26	sdziallas	nods. exactly!
12:26		yeah... we should be good for v3 by now.
12:27	mchua	Okay. If we just shipped Browse, would we be totally unsatisfied?
12:27	sdziallas	Heh. Possibly.
12:28	SeanDaly	what's the topic?
12:28	sdziallas	SeanDaly: sustainability :)
12:29	mchua	sdziallas: What's the 2nd Activity you'd add?
12:29	SeanDaly	always a good one :-)
12:29	mchua	SeanDaly: The idea is to ship a much smaller SoaS Activity list - bare minimum, providing instructions on how people can install more.
12:30		SeanDaly: That way we have the bandwidth to really test and "support" the small number of core Activities we're putting out.
12:30		And people don't expect us to support the rest - and they also get to feel a little more participatory by going out and exploring other Activities to install.
12:30		(part of this would be making very, very good docs and guides for many different sorts of audiences on how to do exactly that.)
12:30		(welcoming them to the community as explorers, etc.)
12:30	SeanDaly	mchua: that's a bit of a crazy idea, considering we tell everyone that SoaS has a selection of ready-to-use Activities
12:31	mchua	SeanDaly: But the truth is that it doesn't, really - a lot of the Activities are broken/unmaintained right now.
12:31	SeanDaly	No argument there, but that's not the point
12:31	mchua	SeanDaly: SoaS will still have a selection of ready-to-use Activities, just a smaller one. And all the Activities on it will actually work, work well, and have responsive maintainers.
12:32	SeanDaly	SoaS serves a vital goal in overcoming the two main barriers Sugar faces: the install barrier and the unfamiliarity barrier
12:32	mchua	SeanDaly: No argument there either.
12:33	SeanDaly	It serves an extremely useful purpose to recruit teachers, parents, and contributors
12:33	mchua	SeanDaly: Yep, I agree.
12:33	SeanDaly	leaving out Activities raises the install barrrier unfortunately
12:33		SoaS for a deployment would be a different story
12:34		But when I am in front of 100 people like I was 2 days ago at the education roundtable of Solutions Linux, I boot up Sugar and point to Activities and launch a few
12:35	mchua	SeanDaly: Oh, we're not cutting all Activities. We'll certainly leave a couple that will make a compelling demo.
12:35		SeanDaly: And the instructions for installing more Activities will be so good, first graders can follow them.
12:35		SeanDaly: Actually, my plan is to get first graders to write them. ;)
12:36	SeanDaly	Booting it up with 3 Activities and saying "fihure out by yourselves how to use this unfamiliar interface which may or may not work with your wireless card to get online and donwload and install more Activities" defeats the entire purpose of SoaS
12:36		fihure/figure
12:36		what possible advantage is there?
12:37	mchua	SeanDaly: Well, let me try to describe what will happen if we don't cut the list.
12:37		SeanDaly: We have... what, sdziallas, 20 Activities on the list now? Something around there?
12:37		SeanDaly: 8 of them simply don't work, as of right nowl
12:37		er, right now.
12:37	sdziallas	mchua: probably something around that, yup.
12:38	mchua	SeanDaly: Nor do they have active maintainers. So they will, in all probability, continue to be broken.
12:38		SeanDaly: The remainder aren't necessarily in much better shape. Some are extremely well-maintained (say, TurtleArt), but those are few and far between.
12:38		And things we would consider "core activities" - Browse, Write - are among the broken, unmaintained ones.
12:39	SeanDaly	so 240 Activities in ASLO, and we can't find 20 that work?
12:39	mchua	SeanDaly: That work well and are actively maintained by responsive developers? Yes, we can't find 20 of those.
12:40	SeanDaly	the maintenance matters less than whether they work
12:40	tomeu	also, I don't think we have enough resources to go through those 240 activities and actually see if they work or not
12:40	mchua	tomeu: +1
12:40	tomeu	in the past, we have included activities just because they managed to startup
12:40	mchua	SeanDaly: The maintenance matters, because we also want them to work tomorrow.
12:40	tomeu	and later turned out that were useless because of some later error
12:40	SeanDaly	I mean, 1.4 millions XO-1s in the wild, and most of those Activities don't work?
12:41	mchua	SeanDaly: Yep.
12:41	tomeu	well, those xo-1s don't care if an activity works in mirabelle
12:41	SeanDaly	it's news to me that most Activities used by children today are not working, where does this info come from?
12:42	tomeu	often, we cannot say if an activity "works" because there's no documentation about how the author intended it to work
12:42	sdziallas	tomeu: right, test cases are something we desperately need, too.
12:42	mchua	SeanDaly: I think you're assuming that we have (or had, in the past) a sufficient amount of development and QA manpower to do things properly. ;)
12:42	tomeu	SeanDaly: anecdotal experience from reading the bugtracker and the mailing lists
12:43	mchua	SeanDaly: As the person who used to be responsible for running the OLPC QA community team as half of my $dayjob, and did deployment support as the other half... I can tell you with great confidence that This Is Not The Case.
12:43	SeanDaly	I'd be surprised if the major Sugar deployments hadn't mentioned to anybody that most Activities are not working
12:43	sdziallas	SeanDaly: booting the latest snapshot. knowing that browse and record were broken for months without anybody caring about that. (to be continued)
12:43	tomeu	SeanDaly: they aren't using mirabelle
12:44	mchua	SeanDaly: They're using old, old images that we shipped more than a year ago.
12:44	tomeu	the problem is not only if something "works", but also in which sugar version it works
12:44	mchua	SeanDaly: And they do report bugs sometimes (the ones who even know they can report bugs - not all of them do).
12:44	SeanDaly	tomeu: mchua just confirmed that most Activities in the 1.4m XO-1s are not working, I'm just surprised to hear that
12:44	cjb	SeanDaly: the main argument is that activities did work, and continue to work on XO-1s, but do not work on current SoaS
12:44		(as I'm hearing it)
12:44	tomeu	cjb: ++
12:45	SeanDaly	I'm confused at this point
12:45		cjb: but put like that I'm less confused
12:45	tomeu	SeanDaly: also, it's not only if an activity works on a sugar version or not, we need to take into account different versions of the same activity
12:45	mchua	SeanDaly: the set of deployments we care about Activities working on SoaS for is "the set of deployments actually using SoaS"
12:45		SeanDaly: which is extremely small at this point, afaict
12:45	SeanDaly	This seems to be a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater
12:46	mchua	SeanDaly: the N-million kids using XO-1's are not part of our userbase for SoaS.
12:46		SeanDaly: How so?
12:46	SeanDaly	As I say there's a difference between SoaS for lowering barriers and SoaS for deployments
12:46	mchua	sdziallas: Which one would you say we are working on now?
12:47		(I would say the latter.)
12:47	SeanDaly	SoaS fulfills a vital role for demoing Sugar, allowing teachers and parents to get past the two biggest hurdles
12:47	mchua	SeanDaly: Ok - SoaS as demo tool vs SoaS as deployment tool are different uses, I agree with that.
12:47	tomeu	suggestion: make a call for testing activities for inclusion into mirabelle
12:47	sdziallas	mchua: I believe that with the position statement I issued for Blueberry (and I hear most people agreed with), we moved more towards the latter point.
12:47	mchua	SeanDaly: The intent of demoing, though, is that we hope people will eventually deploy SoaS, right?
12:48	SeanDaly	SoaS without Activities may be a good base for a pilot deployment version, but will fail in its role for demoing Sugar
12:48	mchua	SeanDaly: so what I would do, if I were to stand in front of 100 people, is to have my SoaS image with minimal Activity set, and go to ASLO and load it up myself.
12:48	tomeu	SeanDaly: the root of the problem is that if we want something done, we need to find someone who will do it
12:48	mchua	SeanDaly: Then, when I gave my demo, I would say "I installed these additional Activities from ASLO - here's how I did it. Isn't ASLO awesome?"
12:49	SeanDaly	mchua: and every nongeek teacher there will think "too complicated"
12:49	tomeu	SeanDaly: until now, we have been trying to do more and more without worrying enough about who will do it, and this lowers quality and stresses people like sdziallas
12:49	mchua	SeanDaly: And right now, I think that's fine.
12:49	SeanDaly	tomeu: not just sdziallas :D
12:49	tomeu	well, in the soas case, most of the pressure has been on him
12:49	mchua	SeanDaly: We don't have bandwidth for support.
12:49	satellit__	could we have a script to install sets of activities from aslo
12:49	mchua	satellit__: That's one possible solution that may be worth exploring.
12:50	SeanDaly	mchua: I showed ASLO at Solutions Linux too
12:50	mchua	satellit__: It still makes the assumption that we start with a very small set of Activities and let other people figure out what else they want to add and worry about themselves. :)
12:50	satellit__	like fedora net install preset activity sets
12:50	SeanDaly	but when I handed out SD cards, I was always asked if "content" was present or if had to be added, and teachers are invariably happier to find out that they don't need to do anything complicated
12:51		For example, I installed Fedora from DVD on 2 netbooks and getting Sugar to work on them has been difficult
12:52		and also disorienting, since there are no Activities in the base install; and no indication that ASLO exists
12:52	mchua	satellit__: A script like that would be outside the scope of SoaS itself, but it might make a nice thing to make as a tool to act on the finished SoaS image (though I'm not sure how easy/possible it is, tbh; it may be a simple 'yum install activities' bash script, or it might be ubercomplicated.)
12:52		satellit__: in other words, "if you want to make a script that takes the SoaS image and does stuff to it to add more Activities, that's great, but that script itself isn't part of SoaS."
12:53	SeanDaly	We've been dealing for some time with our limited resources issues
12:53	mchua	SeanDaly: I don't disagree with your assessments - I just think that we do not have the capacity to support teachers who can't figure out a lot of this stuff, at this point.
12:53		As a project - as SoaS.
12:54		Individual deployment supported by individual people can do that.
12:54	satellit__	could the script be on a startup menu plus install to hard disk (usb) like trisquel and fedora
12:54	SeanDaly	If we have that many orphaned Activities, perjaps we need to raise priority of recruitment
12:54	mchua	For instance, that's why I've got the CFS SoaS deployment - because I can guarantee that I (Mel) will help that classroom.
12:54	SeanDaly	mchua: Teachers need to know Sugar exists
12:54	mchua	SeanDaly: We do need to raise the priority of recruitment - but that's going to help us make a more full-featured SoaS later.
12:54		SeanDaly: Right now, we need to slim down many things because the capacity we have to make things well now is small.
12:55		SeanDaly: I'd rather do a small, high-quality release than a large crappy one. I want to have a reputation for being Extremely Good.
12:55		SeanDaly: Teachers need to know Sugar exists, yes. And when they discover Sugar, I'd like them to discover a great, working product.
12:55	SeanDaly	Well, hearing that most Activities in ASLO don't work seems to me to be a critical situation
12:56	mchua	SeanDaly: Right now, if they don't know about Sugar, they have no expectations about what it does - so we set expectations for the few things we know we can do well, and then as we gain the capacity to do more things well, we go "and now we have more things!" and celebrate that.
12:56		SeanDaly: It absolutely is a critical situation.
12:56	tomeu	a critical situation is that people think that SLs does things by itself, without needing investment
12:56	SeanDaly	mchua: a solid bulletproof Sugar would spread very quickly, by word of mouth. But it seems to me we can't have a solid bulletproof Sugar with new versions every six months, unless I'm missing something?
12:57	tomeu	this has drained the energy of the people who managed what we have today, without giving us a way forward
12:57	mchua	SeanDaly: With our current manpower for SoaS, we can only have a very small solid bulletproof SoaS every 6 months.
12:57	sdziallas	tomeu: +1.
12:57	mchua	tomeu: +1
12:57	tomeu	we have shown that we are capable of doing stuff, now we may need to switch to show how other people can make it possible that we make more stuff
12:58	SeanDaly	The recruitment problem could be partly solved with funding
12:58	mchua	SeanDaly: That's actually the goal - it's why sdziallas made SoaS a Fedora Spin this time around, it's why we're slimming down the Activities list for SoaS right now... we want solid bulletproof Sugar.
12:58		SeanDaly: But we don't have funding now.
12:58		SeanDaly: The thing is, beta freeze is Tuesday.
12:58	tomeu	SeanDaly: but not just money, the money should be coming from those who actually use and need sugar
12:58	mchua	SeanDaly: So our problem right now is "okay, between now and Tuesday, what's going to work - and work well?"
12:58	tomeu	otherwise we won't invest it wisely
12:58	SeanDaly	mchua: without Activities, there's no point for SoaS
12:59	mchua	SeanDaly: There'll still be Activities, just not 20 of them.
12:59	SeanDaly	As I say, no point
12:59	mchua	SeanDaly: We're going through the list here in public precisely so that people can help us prioritize which Activities we need to spend our time on shipping.
13:00	tomeu	sees a big point in what mchua and sdziallas are doing
13:00	mchua	SeanDaly: Criteria include things like "impact on education," "demoability," "effort needed to package and maintain the package," and "state of bugs/ease of development."
13:00	SeanDaly	might be better to deal with this on-list, it's an important topic (unless I missed the mail, I have had connectivity issues)
13:00	tomeu	and I'm sure deployers like simon and children like his class do as well
13:00	mchua	SeanDaly: It's going to be hitting the list as soon as we're done with the first cut of the kickstart file.
13:01		SeanDaly: Freeze is Tuesday; between now and then, there are 4 daily builds.
13:01	SeanDaly	I don't know what a kickstart file is, I'm sorry
13:01	mchua	SeanDaly: We just need to get a first small working version up, and then tell people the process for other things being added to it.
13:01		SeanDaly: Whoops, sorry. Geek-brain slip. :)
13:01	SeanDaly	mchua; that's fine for deployments, but fails as a Sugar demo
13:02		SoaS is the central pillar of our marketing because it overcomes the two greatest barriers Sugar faces: installation and unfamiliarity
13:02	mchua	SeanDaly: You can think of the kickstart file as the list of Activities that will ship in SoaS. It's in a special format so that when you run a script on a kickstart file, it generates an .iso.
13:02		sdziallas: (I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.)
13:02	sdziallas	mchua: that's a good description, I think.
13:03	mchua	SeanDaly: If we have no solid product, though, we have nothing to market.
13:03		SeanDaly: We need to market what we do have - what we can produce - which is this small thing that works well.
13:03	SeanDaly	mchua: no, that's not correct
13:03	mchua	willing to be corrected - I'm an engineer, not a marketer, though I've been trying to learn the latter lately. :)
13:04	SeanDaly	although a bulletproof reliable product would make marketing extremely simple - think Google, which never had to advertise for its first 10 years in business,
13:04		we can't say "stop spreading the word about Sugar, it's not ready"
13:05	mchua	SeanDaly: oh, no, I wouldn't want to say that.
13:05		SeanDaly: I'd want to say "spread the word about Sugar - here's what we've got right now, and you can help us build the rest and make it even better."
13:05	SeanDaly	Everyone who evaluates Sugar - journalists, ed tech buyers, the EU contacts for example - everyone knows Sugar is not ready
13:06		What they want is to see the signs of how it is developing and improving
13:06		But, my concern is not with them
13:06		it is with the 7 million or so primary school teachers in the world
13:06		We need to inform them that there is an alternative
13:07	mchua	There's an alternative, and it's not ready for most of them yet.
13:07		They can help make it more ready for them.
13:07	SeanDaly	OLPC has been thoroughly slagged in the press these past couple of years, for several reasons,
13:07	tomeu	is confused about the subject of the discussion
13:08	SeanDaly	but one of the main ones is: journalists couldn't get their hands on one
13:08	mchua	Hey, rkabir!
13:08	tomeu	SeanDaly: I think everybody in this channel wants sugar and soas be wonderful products and cater all the educative needs of teachers and students
13:08	SeanDaly	tomeu: SoaS is fulfilling two roles, and if Activities are absent from it, it will not work in one of those roles
13:08	tomeu	SeanDaly: but: 1. we cannot do more than what we can do, 2. we need to think about expanding our capacity
13:09	mchua	SeanDaly: I think we're drifting from the original purpose of this conversation, which was taking a hard look at the engineering reqs for SoaS for this release cycle (with the upcoming Tuesday beta freeze) and being realistic about what we can and can't do well.
13:09	tomeu	SeanDaly: I suggested before making a call for people testing activities for inclusion in the next release
13:09		SeanDaly: or who do you expect to do that work?
13:09	SeanDaly	tomeu: yes, which is why I said earlier we should raise priority of recruitment and funding if situation that bad
13:10	mchua	SeanDaly: That's a great medium-term solution, and I'd love to do that. And in the short term - between now and Tuesday - we have to be realistic about our engineering capabilities.
13:10		On that note... sdziallas, what's the 2nd Activity you'd add back in? ;)
13:10	tomeu	SeanDaly: so, as I said before, I think first step is stop giving that image of we being able to do much more than what we can really do
13:10	SeanDaly	tomeu: we've made that call before (cf. press releases) without much success, we need to try another way
13:11		tomeu: I'm not aware of that image...
13:11	tomeu	SeanDaly: I'm pretty certain there is
13:11	sdziallas	mchua: turtleart? physics? not sure.
13:11	mchua	sdziallas: wait, over Record and Write?
13:11		pulls up activity list
13:11	sdziallas	mchua: write is broken.
13:11	mchua	realizes that Record and Write are broken, but yeah :)
13:11	sdziallas	mchua: record... well, works half-ish, could go in.
13:11	SeanDaly	Look, if situation is this critical we can skip the launch for Mirabelle
13:12	mchua	SeanDaly: You're welcome (actually, it would be great) to chime in on the Activity selection... which ones demo best?
13:12		SeanDaly: I think we can redirect a lot of the publicity push for Mirabelle for users/consumers
13:12	SeanDaly	What we should do is number it v2.5 and position it as strengthening stability for our deployments
13:13	mchua	SeanDaly: but we need to "release early, release often" to enable developers to help out - it's part of what we have to do in order to increase our capacity, and make recruiting possible.
13:13	SeanDaly	mchua: as I say, if the situation is this critical we shouldn't do any publicity
13:13	mchua	SeanDaly: to users, no.
13:13	SeanDaly	mchua: yes, as I say we need to raise priority of recruiting/funding
13:13	mchua	SeanDaly: To developers who might help out, we need to do a lot of recruiting.
13:13		SeanDaly: so maybe that's not called 'publicity,' but somehow we have to reach those folks. :)
13:14	satellit__	fix spin v3 then when it works do publicity
13:14	SeanDaly	mchua: by "users" I guess you mean my 7 million teachers? :D
13:14	mchua	sdziallas: ok, I'm looking at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sugar_Activities
13:14		SeanDaly: Yeah... market less to teachers and more to techies who can help make it ready to market to teachers
13:14	sdziallas	mchua: I'm there, too (and have the rest of the activities in the old kickstart file)
13:14	mchua	SeanDaly: Or to techies who can then opt to support the teachers near them, kinda like what erikos and I are doing now
13:14	SeanDaly	satellit__: betterr to renumber v2.5 maintenance release and save v3 number for media launch in the fall (or whenever ready)
13:15	satellit__	yes i guess I agree...sadly
13:16	SeanDaly	mchua: well, a diffferent approach could be to recruit geeks to pilot in schools (previously we had been thinking "geeky teachers")
13:16	mchua	SeanDaly: Hold on a moment, I want to make sure we're on the same page here...
13:16		here's what I have in my brain, correct me if I'm wrong.
13:16	satellit__	I still like the minimal idea....with scripts to install on startup menu
13:16	mchua	SeanDaly: The facts of the situation are that we have a looming deadline (Tuesday beta freeze) before which to get engineering done, and few resources, so we need to (temporarily) scale back the scope of our engineering efforts.
13:17	SeanDaly	satellit__: it's a good approach... for a school admin setting up a deployment
13:17	mchua	SeanDaly: which is what sdziallas and I are trying to do right now, in the form of reducing the list of activities that ship with SoaS by default.
13:17	SeanDaly	mchua: I have no objection (I mean, we can't spin gold from flax), but dong so make SoaS unusable in its demo role
13:18	mchua	SeanDaly: So there will be an image created that is 100% solid working SoaS - but very minimal SoaS, with few Activities, because we will be spending our efforts on making sure those Activities are working really well.
13:18		SeanDaly: Right, getting to that.
13:18	satellit__	strawberry works for demo?
13:18	mchua	SeanDaly: This image is a lot less full-featured than the previous one - it has fewer Activities, and as SeanDaly pointed out, doesn't demo as well because... well, there's less stuff to demo.
13:19		SeanDaly: And so it's less appealing to a large group of teachers - the kind who want and need the extra leg-up of having Activities ready-to-go on the stick they're trying out.
13:19		Which is fine, 'cause teachers have a lot of other things to do. :)
13:20		SeanDaly: And so the question now is - okay, we're making this slimmer image... what do we call it and how do we market it when it's released (in May, because we're tied to the Fedora 13 release date, as a spin)?
13:20	SeanDaly	mchua: we don't market it
13:20	mchua	SeanDaly: I agree.
13:20		SeanDaly: I think we use that release as a recruitment release, rather than a marketing release.
13:21	SeanDaly	mchua: we use it in a recruitment campaign, and the less said in our PR the better
13:21	mchua	SeanDaly: +1.
13:21		SeanDaly: Okay, so I don't think we actually disagree on anything. :)
13:21		SeanDaly: (wait, isn't recruitment sort of a form of marketing, though?)
13:21		SeanDaly: (marketing the experience of participation, anyway.,)
13:22	SeanDaly	Well, it's a disappointment not to keep press release rhythm going, but I have other PR in the pipeline
13:22		Marketing is what I call reaching 7 million teachers, and recruitment is what I call reaching 1000 developers
13:23	mchua	SeanDaly: Yeah... well, between May and the start of the school year, there's some time to fix stuff. I'm not sure what'll happen there, but hopefully we'll have enough contribution from that recruitment push to give you something really good to market for v4.
13:23	SeanDaly	naturally, there's a communications strategy in recruitment :-)
13:23	satellit__	I think strawberry is great for demo's most applications work. use v2.5 for recruitment for developers
13:23	SeanDaly	Shouldn't be v4, that will confuse people. We should renumber v2.5 and save v3 for the fall when hopefully it will be ready
13:24	mchua	SeanDaly: Yeah, I think we're going to need a lot of help with that when the time comes. :)
13:24	SeanDaly	satellit__: Ii still use Strawberry for demoing
13:24	tomeu	SeanDaly: I don't think recruitment is just reaching developers, there's much more to it. also, we don't only need to recruit, we need to manage them
13:24	satellit__	: )
13:24	tomeu	iow: we need a community manager
13:24	mchua	SeanDaly: Actually, can we talk about the version numbers for a bit?
13:24	SeanDaly	tomeu: no disagreement from me, but mchua was talking marketing
13:25	mchua	SeanDaly: As a (former) developer, calling this 2.5 is confusing and goes against all the FOSS dev conventions that I know.
13:25	SeanDaly	most FLOSS projects think marketing is recruitment, and miss opportunities for breakout
13:25	tomeu	SeanDaly: I just say this because if we reach those developers but aren't in place to welcome there, we'll miss the chance
13:25	mchua	SeanDaly: Maybe what we need is a way to mark releases as "for teachers" - the same way, for example, Ubuntu marks some releases as LTS.
13:25	satellit__	if use 2.5 then have 1 year releases. better for school periods?
13:26	SeanDaly	mchua: exactly the opposite: I argued for the renumbering to v1, v2, v3 precisely because the v0.84 numbering was incomprehensible to nongeeks teachers
13:26	mchua	tomeu: Yep. So any outreach/contribution campaign has a dependency of making sure we can take in the influx of whatever that campaign will give us.
13:27	SeanDaly	v3 is commonly considered a version that is stable and has the bugs out
13:27		it would be a big mistake for us to use v3 on a maintenance release
13:27	mchua	SeanDaly: Hm, okay. I thought that's what the names (strawberry, blueberry, mirabelle) were for - so that there would be a series of user-facing names independent of the engineering-development numbers.
13:27	satellit__	v3 RC?
13:27	tomeu	mchua: and perhaps there's even more to that, we need to change our community's culture to be one where it's more clear where more work is needed, how that work can be contributed, and what will happen if nobody steps up
13:28	mchua	SeanDaly: from my pov, as an engineer, I need some way of marking when large changes in the product happen - for technical compatibility and maintenance reasons.
13:28	SeanDaly	mchua: if you look at the PR, we have always associated the ice cream flavor with v1, v2
13:28	mchua	SeanDaly: and in my mind, what we're doing now is a huge change, relatively speaking
13:28	SeanDaly	mchua: removing nearly all Activities is a pretty major change
13:28	mchua	SeanDaly: so I'm going "oh hey, this is something different altogether - this is a new major version, engineering-wise."
13:29		SeanDaly: Maybe the engineering numbering needs to be separate from the marketing numbering, but I'm not sure how we can separate those two counters.
13:29		tomeu: Yep, culture of contribution.
13:29	SeanDaly	then best to start an Nth engineering numbering system
13:29		v1, v2, v3 have always been "marketing" version numbers
13:30	mchua	SeanDaly: in the engineering numbering system, the-image-that-will-come-out-in-May will, I think, be the-third-version...
13:30	tomeu	should restart reading jono's book
13:30	SeanDaly	This was discussed in depth last May before Strawberry release
13:30	mchua	SeanDaly: what can we use for counting engineering releases that won't collide with the marketing version numbers?
13:30		sdziallas: thoughts?
13:30	SeanDaly	mchua: not for teachers, so should be v2.5
13:30		mchua: you could use SoaS F13/v0.88
13:30	sdziallas	(I've been following this convo)
13:31	mchua	SeanDaly: well, if we were using the same numbering system for marketing and engineering, sure. But we're not, because engineers need a different numbering system than... oh, hey. SoaS F13/v0.88 would work for me.
13:31	sdziallas	I'm leaning towards arguing that it's still the third release.
13:31	mchua	sdziallas: Why's that?
13:31	SeanDaly	mchua: I argued for v1 instead of "F11/v0.84", and you saw the press coverage?
13:32	sdziallas	mchua: Because... it is. Whether it has a different audience from a PR point of view doesn't decrease the value of the release.
13:32	mchua	SeanDaly: Refresh my memory?
13:32	satellit__	why cannot it be labeled V3 release candidate?
13:34	SeanDaly	sdziallas: journalists who reviewed v2 Blueberry and in the fall hear about v4 Cloudberry will say: "Whoa! I missed a version!"
13:34	mchua	satellit__: Because a release candidate is "the final release, we think, except it hasn't been fully tested yet" - implying that the feature set in the release candidate is the feature set that will be marketed to users.
13:34	SeanDaly	But they didn't, because this version is not intended for demoing Sugar
13:34	sdziallas	SeanDaly: well, not necessarily.
13:34		SeanDaly: here's the thing:
13:34	satellit__	ok I thought is was for debugging and testing
13:34	mchua	satellit__: In this case, we have a very tiny feature set, and we don't want to market that to users, we want to wait another cycle to have more features in a release we do want to market to users.
13:34		satellit__: at least that's my understanding - SeanDaly can probably correct me if I'm wrong. :)
13:34	sdziallas	(gah. gotta find a quote, hang on.)
13:35	SeanDaly	sdziallas: surely you're aware that most tech writers review a "v3" more in depth than first two versions?
13:35	sdziallas	SeanDaly: "Do Your Own SoaS! - we included the base, now it's your turn. EXPLORE! - grab whatever you want from our portal, activities.sugarlabs.org"
13:35		SeanDaly: together with a "we're calling for more developers"
13:35		SeanDaly: plus a "we're collaborating with Fedora to make v4 more awesome - v3 is already rock-stable"
13:35		...call should make a pretty decent marketing call from my point of view.
13:36	mchua	I do think there's a way to calibrate expectations for this as a release such that reviews based on those expectations will be good.
13:36	SeanDaly	sdziallas:as I say i agree we can work on recruiting developers, but a SoaS without Activities will fail as a demo for teachers
13:36	sdziallas	SeanDaly: we are not removing all activities.
13:36		SeanDaly: and you were talking about journalists a second ago.
13:36		I'd like to tackle these issues step by step.
13:37	mchua	listens
13:37	SeanDaly	sdziallas: it's just not realistic to expect someone who has never seen the interface and doesn't know what a wifi driver is to connect to ASLO and install Activities
13:37	sdziallas	SeanDaly: that is why there will be awesome documentations.
13:38		SeanDaly: such as included instructions in the journal and a redesigned wiki page.
13:38	SeanDaly	sdziallas: it's a major change from previous launched versions
13:38		That's why we shouldn't do any media campaign, just outreach to developers
13:38	sdziallas	SeanDaly: I'm not sure I understand that point.
13:38	SeanDaly	but v1, v2, v3 numbering should be tied to media launches
13:39	sdziallas	SeanDaly: Change is good. And as long as we can justify why we're doing this - and we certainly can - it'll be alright.
13:39	satellit__	we need an accompanying DVD .iso to DL with the instructions and demos
13:39	sdziallas	SeanDaly: If we explain that v3 introduces a cooperation with Fedora, making everything more stable, I don't see why we shouldn't do that.
13:39	SeanDaly	sdziallas: it will be fine, just not for media launch and teachers, that can wait until the fall
13:39	sdziallas	SeanDaly: such as we did with Strawberry.
13:40		SeanDaly: I still don't understand why it shouldn't be fine for a media launch.
13:40	SeanDaly	sdziallas: developers will care about that, but teachers will ask: "what's Fedora?"
13:40	sdziallas	SeanDaly: if you select the target audience wisely, it won't be a problem.
13:40		SeanDaly: that's why you say: "to make it more stable."
13:40		SeanDaly: you give rationals for what we're doing.
13:41	SeanDaly	I think the target audience should be developers
13:41	sdziallas	SeanDaly: we're telling the people that we're making these steps to make SoaS more awesome.
13:41	mchua	pipes up. I was just reading backscroll in #fedora-mktg and saw a potentially relevant conversation - short excerpt at http://fpaste.org/ZUWG/.
13:41	SeanDaly	sdziallas: most of my 7 milllion teachers will ask: "what's Sugar?"
13:42		to be clear, it is a major challenge to build a brand from zero
13:42	mchua	It's a huge challenge, and you're doing an amazing job at it. I'm not sure what we'd do without you, SeanDaly.
13:42	SeanDaly	we are encountering success because we are smart and depsite having no marketing/promotion budget
13:42		despite
13:42	mchua	And because we have been producing good stuff.
13:43		We fundamentally have a good product. It's rough. It's definitely nowhere near complete. But it's got plenty of potential.
13:43	SeanDaly	mchua: yes, that's always the case - you can only market colored water for a limited amount of time
13:43	mchua	It is also a major challenge to build a software learning environment - or a distro - from zero.
13:43	SeanDaly	Our shortcut to raising awareness with tiny budget is: news coverage
13:44	mchua	that's one of many possible strategies, but yeah, it seems to work well. :)
13:44	SeanDaly	We've had success with tech news and some general outlets, but not with education press yet
13:44	mchua	Anyway, the version numbering - I think this is something we can come back to, really. Right now, we have to figure out our engineering scope.
13:44		Otherwise we won't have anything to assign a name or number to.
13:44	SeanDaly	mchua: I'm always open to strategy discussions :-)
13:45	mchua	SeanDaly: as am I. ;)
13:45	sdziallas	(uh, I'm, too. heh :)
13:45	mchua	how about this - sdziallas and I and whoever else wants to hang around will blaze through the first round of the slim package list, make that iso
13:45		tell the list, attempt to summarize this conversation
13:45		we'll tell 3 lists in 3 different ways.
13:45		soas, to say "okay, here's what we're doing, engineeringwise, and why"
13:46	SeanDaly	If we can't offer a SoaS with Activities, it's a pity, but no big deal, we just delay the media launch to the fall
13:46	mchua	activities (or maybe ieap and devel or... wherever we think activity devs hang out) saying "here's why these things made soas this time and why the rest did not, and how you can get your stuff in next round by stepping up to do this work."
13:46	SeanDaly	But journalists and analysts watching us should not get confused by us skipping a number
13:46	mchua	and marketing, to say "here's what's going on in the other two lists," and then let you take it from there and figure out what marketing should do.
13:47		first topic can be version number. ;)
13:47		SeanDaly: how's that?
13:47	SeanDaly	mchua: many approaches possible: "adopt an Activity"
13:47	mchua	SeanDaly: Yep yep. But we gotta get the first version of "slim SoaS" done first. (...I'm sure we'll think of a, um, better codename soon.)
13:48	SeanDaly	mchua: what is clear is that calling a maintenance release v3 makes my work much harder
13:48		media launches are a lot of work
13:48	mchua	SeanDaly: Right. so we'll go ahead with the engineering, but we won't call it anything in particular until you have a chance to figure this out with the marketing team.
13:49	SeanDaly	no big deal to call this one off if it's not ready, after all it's not like we have made media investments already
13:49	mchua	or we'll call it "slim SoaS" or something less... silly sounding than that in the meantime. But not Mirabelle, not v3... for now.
13:49		right.
13:49		good to find this out early on.
13:49		SeanDaly: I'm glad you popped in today.
13:50	SeanDaly	Mirabelle is cool, it's just "v3" I have a problem with for a non-media launch release
13:50	mchua	sdziallas: (does that sound like a reasonable temporary compromise - we'll just use a codename for this until we can figure out the version/name thing with the marketing folks?)
13:50	SeanDaly	mchua: I popped in for the SLOBs meeting
13:50	mchua	SeanDaly: wait, so you'd be fine with us calling it mirabelle, but not... v3?
13:50	SeanDaly	mchua: Yes, we had alrready agreed to save "Cloudberry" for fall version
13:51	mchua	SeanDaly: basically, "what should we call this slim-Activity-set SoaS version we're making, until such time the Marketing list can discuss what to actually call it?"
13:51		SeanDaly: if that's mirabelle, then I think we're set.
13:51	SeanDaly	call it v2.x Mirabelle where x is any number you want
13:52	mchua	Heh, I usually think of Marketing wanting the names and engineering wanting the numbers :)
13:52	SeanDaly	This is not a big marketing team issue which requires lots of discussion, since it is a media launch cancellation
13:52	sdziallas	I believe rel-eng has a call in the versioning, too.
13:52	SeanDaly	mchua: no, the v1, v2, v3 came from me, for marketing purposes
13:52	sdziallas	I also don't get why this is a "media launch cancellation".
13:52		is quite a bit lost in this convo.
13:53	SeanDaly	sdziallas: we had planned a media launch for Mirabelle, but it's clear it won't be ready
13:53	sdziallas	SeanDaly: it will be ready.
13:53	mchua	so we'll do a recruitment push instead, is my understanding
13:53	sdziallas	and it will be released in May.
13:53	mchua	sdziallas: ready for recruitment, not for "hey end users, new stuff for you, out of the box!"
13:54	SeanDaly	sdziallas: with or without Activities?
13:54		without Activities, there's no point
13:54	sdziallas	mchua: right. but for people reading stuff also with "we're doing this BECAUSE..."
13:54	SeanDaly	However, it's now clear to me that recruitment and funding needs to be higher priority than before
13:54	sdziallas	SeanDaly: certainly with activities. but neither broken nor crappy activities nobody needs.
13:54	mchua	SeanDaly: So, clearly, not everyone is on the same page re: version numbering and naming and marketing stuff :) I'd like to have that convo on the marketing list
13:55		...I'd also like to finish the engineering scoping of what Activities we will be shipping asap
13:55		so we know what we will be marketing and/or recruiting for.
13:55		If we don't know that, at some level, we're just talking hypotheticals.
13:56		Let us figure out the product first, because we're under some hard resource constraints in terms of engineering firepower.
13:56		And then we'll figure out the marketing on-list with you.
13:56		SeanDaly: sound fair?
13:56	SeanDaly	Look at the press page... the next PR media campaign needs to be v3. That launch should happen in the fall if we can't ship with a set of Activities
13:57	sdziallas	SeanDaly: we are NOT saying that we're shipping "without a set of activities"
13:58	SeanDaly	mchua: the key takeaway is... an engineering crisis situation needs to have marketing in the loop asap, and not as an afterthought
13:58	sdziallas	SeanDaly: we are saying that we're shipping with a well-selected set of activites which can be adjusted and enhanced easily by following clear instructions.
13:58		SeanDaly: what do you think does having three core modules (out of 12) for Sugar mean?
13:59	SeanDaly	sdziallas: again, great for deployments, but useless for first-time tryers
13:59	sdziallas	SeanDaly: so we're trying... to target everybody at the same time?
13:59	mchua	SeanDaly: That's why I'm glad you're here, and why we're going to be sending this to marketing right after we finish picking the activity set.
14:00		SeanDaly: but right now, Sebastian and I have to scope the feature list for engineering so we can do the engineering and actually have a product.
14:00	SeanDaly	sdziallas: No, we are accepting that next SoaS can't fulfiill demo role, no big deal we just roll back the media campaign to the fall. But the v3 number needs to be associated with the next campaign.
14:00	mchua	So I'm going to request we table this convo for a couple hours while sdziallas and I work that out, and then we'll take this to the marketing list.
14:01	satellit__	sdziallas: off topic :we also need to fix the jabber.sugarlabs.org It has been down quite a time now. Needed for testing and demos
14:01	mchua	Okay, guys, I really need to get some food.
14:01	sdziallas	same here.
14:01	SeanDaly	me too need to go
14:02	sdziallas	satellit__: daveb is the guy for that. if nothing helps, emailing him should help.
14:02	mchua	sdziallas: Meet you back here when we're done eating and we'll go through the rest?
14:02		sdziallas: (I might be an hour or two)
14:02	sdziallas	mchua: sounds good!
14:02		mchua: I'll be around.
14:02	mchua	sdziallas: #endmeeting?
14:02		yeah, sam here
14:02		er, same here
14:02	sdziallas	#endmeeting

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#sugar-meeting, 2010-03-19