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#sugar-meeting, 2010-03-12

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
11:03 walterbender could everyone present please wave?
11:03 waves
11:03 tomeu waves as well
11:03 SeanDaly wavy
11:04 mchua waves
11:04 satellit__ *
11:04 walterbender Welcome everyone.
11:04 mchua walterbender: next time you should ask us to do something more entertaining, like the electric slide. ;)
11:04 walterbender mchua: :)
11:05 Here is today's agenda: (1) TM; (2) Goals; (3) GSoC
11:05 We will try to keep a strict time limit to ensure a discussion of each topic.
11:05 #topic TM
11:06 I had made some edits last week to Section 2 of the guidelines, but I was unable to discuss them with Sean in the interim.
11:06 Sean and I have been discussing the possibility of a roundtable meeting in which we sort this out.
11:07 It seems to be difficult to do in IRC/email.
11:07 SeanDaly Yes I am willing to travel to Boston in April if we can wait that long
11:07 walterbender One idea that just surfaced would be using the Gnome summit meeting as a venue
11:07 mchua Is it just the latency issue of communications between the people who need to talk?
11:07 Would a conference call be a decent substitute?
11:08 walterbender mchua: I think it is more than latency...
11:08 mchua realizes she excludes herself from that conversation by doing so, but is okay with that if it gets the job done.
11:08 s/doing so/suggesting a phone call
11:08 cjb walterbender: huh, there's a Gnome summit?
11:08 I thought that was in October
11:09 walterbender I think we could make some progress clearing the air on a number of points with a face-to-face meeting and then we can bring the discussion back on line with more clarity and focus.
11:09 tomeu is it the hackfest?
11:09 mchua What are the key issues that need to be resolved re: trademark, and why do they need to happen in person?
11:09 not saying meeting in person is a bad idea, just wondering if it's necessary.
11:10 walterbender mchua: well, we seem stuck with the usual channels.
11:10 cjb have we considered just voting or something?
11:10 mchua It feels like we're expending a lot of time and effort on this conversation already, and have been struggling to keep those conversations public... I guess I'm just not convinced that a face-to-face meeting will magically solve the issue.
11:10 SeanDaly mchua: in person always better, and I'm willing to spring my ticket
11:11 cjb it's not the end of the world for two people to disagree on how important something is; it's usually just a sign that you should involve more people and listen to their consensus
11:11 SeanDaly I don't have anything "private" to say about it mchua, if you wish I could record it and we could post the ogg file :-)
11:11 mchua SeanDaly: I would be there streaming and livetranscribing if at all possible. :)
11:11 walterbender cjb: yes, but it is clear that there are some deeper issues that are not being adequately voiced in irc and email
11:12 SeanDaly my issue is, without the tools I cannot do the job
11:12 mchua Can we try a phone call first, independent of Sean coming out to Boston, just to see if it will help move things forward faster?
11:12 (Either way, Sean, I would *love* to finally meet you in person, so I'm a fan of this trip-to-Boston idea.)
11:12 SeanDaly it's also possible I am too ambitious about raising Sugar awareness
11:13 mchua SeanDaly: What tools are needed that aren't there?
11:13 walterbender cjb: can we use the OLPC conf. line?
11:13 SeanDaly mchua: I've wanted to come for several months, but planning has been iffy
11:13 mchua: an effective trademark licensing program
11:13 cjb walterbender: sure, I think we can
11:13 tomeu have been considered the possibility of promoting sugar through another brand? as in, we promote and defend strictly the Muffin brand, which is a product including the lesser known Sugar
11:14 walterbender We should plan a call ASAP and then meet in Boston as well... we should be able to get everyone on the board in the room at the same time :)
11:14 SeanDaly tomeu: we could try cobranding, but what whom? Only worth it if other brand well-known
11:14 walterbender something unprecidented
11:14 tomeu maybe we get into a conflict because we want to do two conflicting things, which we don't actually need to do at the same time
11:14 SeanDaly walterbender: agree
11:15 mchua Simultaneous SLOBs. Schweet.
11:15 tomeu SeanDaly: not quite, it's more about inventing a new brand
11:15 SeanDaly: that new brand is oriented to the general public, and sugar remains a obscure FOSS project
11:15 SeanDaly tomeu: my reading is that cjb and perhaps others feel such a tm program would be counter principles of openness & freedom
11:15 cjb one of the current conflicts is between SeanDaly's desire to have strong tools, and the software freedom desire of allowing people to distribute copies of sugar
11:15 yeah, exactly
11:16 mchua Okay. Does everyone want to make the call? Who needs to be there? Sean, of course... and maybe we should try to get Karen on the line, because Lawyers are Helpful.
11:16 tomeu SeanDaly, cjb: hmm, thought the concerns were more of a practical nature?
11:16 mchua offers to figure out the scheduling on-list.
11:16 SeanDaly tomeu: building a brand takes millions of $$$, we have been doing it on the cheap with a shortcut: press coverage
11:16 cjb tomeu: no, the current blockage is pretty much simply as I described.  I think it's important to allow people to distribute modified copies of Sugar.
11:16 (without asking for our permission)
11:16 mchua can't make the actual call due to this inability-to-hear thing, and thus wants to be as useful as possible towards it.
11:16 tomeu cjb: ok, I was seeing that as a practical issue
11:17 cjb ah, ok :)
11:17 tomeu otherwise, the Sugar brand becomes the protected one and we invent something else for the FOSS project
11:17 mchua Ok, so we need to set up three things here: (1) a call time that all the necessary people can make, (2) an agenda for the call, and (3) a means of public recording/notetaking for the call. Separately, we should set up (4) a SLOBs gathering in Boston.
11:17 looking at clock.
11:18 SeanDaly I, too, think it's important to allow people to distribute modified copies of Sugar, not sure how we can succeed otherwise
11:18 walterbender mchua: yes. Let's try to schedule the call
11:18 tomeu is going to be in boston around 14-18th april
11:18 cjb SeanDaly: but not the without asking for our permission part?
11:19 mchua Okay. walterbender, I volunteer to set up (1-3), but should probably not do logistics for (4) - someone else should take that who isn't on the road between now and April 10th. ;)
11:19 (the "agenda" part will involve a lot of question-asking of the other people who need to be on the call, I have nothing to add to it myself.)
11:19 SeanDaly cjb: in my view we need to make the distinction between the code and the code's name, logo, and symbols
11:19 walterbender I am already helping with logistics for Gnome, so I can add Sugar to the list...
11:19 mchua SeanDaly, cjb: is this the sort of thing we should be discussing on the call next week or the week after? ;)
11:19 walterbender: wanna #action? I think only the meeting owner can do that.
11:19 walterbender mchua: next week, I hope...
11:20 tomeu walterbender: guess I need to buy the tickets in the next week or so, so would be good to know the dates by then
11:20 walterbender #action: mchua will organize a call to discuss TM
11:20 #action: walter will organize a slob meeting during the Gnome Hackfest in Boston
11:20 cjb URL for the gnome hackfest?
11:20 SeanDaly yes as soon as dates I can get tickets
11:21 tomeu cjb: http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/Python2010
11:21 SeanDaly I may also visit NYC and/or Miami
11:21 tomeu adds cjb to the list of people not reading his blog
11:21 cjb hee hee
11:21 mchua Okay. Anything else between now and then we need to do for TM?
11:21 Moving forward slowly, but moving forward.
11:22 walterbender I think we can move to the next topic then...
11:22 tomeu: I will work with the hackfest schedule, so it shouldn't impact your flights.
11:22 #topic Goals
11:23 tomeu walterbender: but I guess I should leave some days for sugar before and/or after, right?
11:23 mchua Yay goals!
11:23 walterbender tomeu: the more time in Boston, the better... but maybe coord. with Sean???
11:23 tomeu yup, so I still have some time before buying the tickets, but not too much
11:24 walterbender tomeu: my wife is on vacation beginning the 16th, so I may be spirited away... before is better for me.
11:24 back to goals...
11:24 SeanDaly yes I will be using work vacation days so I won't want to spend a lot of time I'm afraid
11:24 tomeu good
11:24 walterbender I did my homework and added a section about 5-year goals...
11:24 mchua #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]-2010-01-22#Goals
11:25 walterbender It is living off of my User page:
11:25 #link http://wki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Walter/Goals
11:25 mchua walterbender: what do we want to do today? articulate everyone's goals, agree on a few overarching ones for SL (with a specific date we're aiming to hit them, and a mechanism to check whether we got there), and figure out the biggest blockers towards reaching them?
11:25 walterbender and embedded in the page Mel pointed to...
11:25 mchua gets ambitious in our remaining 30m on this topic ;)
11:26 tomeu is unsure about overarching goals, but has his own
11:26 walterbender I was hoping everyone would have at least read them by now (not the 5-year goals, as I only just posted them) and either commented or added their own personal goals.
11:27 tomeu: could you link to you own as per Mel's lead?
11:27 tomeu writes down
11:27 walterbender I agree that we don't want to get ahead of ourselves, setting unobtainable goals...
11:27 mchua #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]:Mchua/Goals_2010 are mine.
11:27 walterbender but we also need to set a clear indicator as to where we are heading...
11:28 SeanDaly Not sure if this is a goal or a means to a goal, but I think it behooves us to set a target for major financing
11:28 walterbender SeanDaly: if we don't set it as a goal, it prob. won't happen...
11:28 SeanDaly fundraising is a project requiring hands & a coordinator, but in my view is a crucial step towards solving our resources issues
11:29 walterbender re ambition, I really appreciate the restraint shown by the Release Team in regard to new features in 0.88...
11:29 They are taking a long view and have been working on a predictable mechanism for execution
11:30 They have taken some flack for being too conservative, but I think they are striking the correct balance...
11:30 As it is, we are way ahead of the ability of deployments to follow us.
11:31 SeanDaly At the risk of opening a Pandora's box, does our current schedule of two releases per year serve us? Or should we consider fewer but more stable releases?
11:31 walterbender So we should be ambitious about our goals, but disciplined about building a strong base for achieving them...
11:31 mchua Hm. One thing I'm noticing, looking at the 5 goals for 2010 that walterbender wrote, is that some of them are ambiguous as to how we'd know, at the end of the year, that we have reached them.
11:31 walterbender SeanDaly: Good question.
11:31 SeanDaly I'm concerned we that at this rate we will usually be out of phase with deployments
11:31 tomeu added to http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]l_goal_statements
11:31 walterbender mchua: Good point
11:31 mchua For instance, "explored mobile" could mean "someone posted a meego link to iaep" or... well, what is sufficient?
11:31 cjb SeanDaly: I think large deployments would certainly be happier with one release per year, but it's not clear how much they should dictate our plans
11:32 I think the large deployment that is closest to us is running 0.82
11:32 SeanDaly As an idea, we could have a release per "school" year (although that doesn't mean the same thing north/south)
11:32 tomeu SeanDaly: we won't have more stable releases by just changing the frequence if nobody tests and fix bugs
11:32 cjb (I mean, closest in terms of running the newest Sugar release.)
11:32 walterbender SeanDaly, cjb: it is not clear that there is/has to be a coupling between our release cycle and deployments
11:32 satellit__ SoaS Creation Kit (John Tierney) Marketing Digest, Vol 17, Issue 2-Seems like a great idea...(Easy to Download DVD.iso with tools for Making stable Soas Sticks + Documentation)
11:32 cjb walterbender: right, that's what I meant
11:33 walterbender SeanDaly: releases are helpful for focus...
11:33 SeanDaly I don't have a strong view, I'm just wondering
11:33 walterbender SeanDaly: but I imagine most Sugar deployments are more on a 2-3 year cycle...
11:33 cjb SeanDaly: it's certainly the case that every large deployment upgrade I know about so far has happened to coincidence with the start of a new school year
11:33 mchua There's also some really basic, foundational stuff we're missing, like "core activities do not have maintainers."
11:33 cjb as in, they definitely don't upgrade more often than that
11:33 mchua (for instance, who's been keeping up with Browse?)
11:34 ...or Write, or Record?
11:34 walterbender but this is why I set a goal of getting positioned to move to a more stable base distro, e.g., RHEL...
11:34 cjb but even just upgrading once every year would be a significant improvement over what we have now
11:34 walterbender mchua: yeah... I cannot keep with just the handful I have...
11:34 SeanDaly mchua: Activity ecosystem is a related, but distinct problem in my view
11:35 cjb walterbender: that might not help those deployments, since they're not running RHEL
11:35 sdziallas SeanDaly: the thing is that these are not just the activity ecosystem, but a core part of Sugar.
11:35 SeanDaly What large deployers need is predictability
11:35 walterbender but SeanDaly, there is a marketing issue here... for example, 0.88 has many stability improvements, but few new user-facing features...
11:35 SeanDaly sdziallas: is this the fructose-glucose stuff you mean?
11:36 walterbender cjb: agreed. that is why it is a goal :) (and it may not be RHEL that is the stable platform we settle on...)
11:36 sdziallas SeanDaly: basically. ;) well, one could phrase it differently, but yes.
11:36 SeanDaly walterbender: hee hee we can't market stability, it's supposed to be in there already ;-)
11:36 cjb "sugar: now with less asbestos"
11:36 :)
11:37 mchua SeanDaly: "if we ship Sugar with a broken Write Activity, that is Not a Good Thing."
11:37 walterbender tastes great and is less filling
11:37 mchua There are some Activities that you need to function with Sugar on a basic level, like Browse.
11:37 And not having eyes on things like that is... worrisome.
11:37 SeanDaly In any case I am more interested in marketing the key differentiators - collaboration, Journal - and "content" - the Activities
11:37 walterbender maybe we can take a step back for a minute... could people give a quick gut reaction to the 5-year goals?
11:38 SeanDaly mchua: you don't say ;-)
11:38 mchua walterbender: "ambitious but vague - I'd rather that we got our house in order first"
11:39 walterbender mchua: well, it is hard to be too specific re 5-year plans, unless you are the CCCP.
11:39 cjb walterbender: I don't like even trying to set five year goals, given how notoriously improbable it is that they'll coincide with reality, but if I had to set some, those look good :)
11:39 mchua I'd love to be able to have those goals as 2011 goals, perhaps. But I worry that we may build our castles on the sand unless we address basic issues first.
11:39 walterbender mchua: but I tried to lay out a message about direction
11:39 mchua cjb: +1
11:39 walterbender (1) a strong statement re a distributed model of development and support
11:39 mchua walterbender: (sorry, I missed the "5-year" part on first read, was commenting on the 2010 goals. Whoops.)
11:39 wakes up
11:40 SeanDaly walterbender: this may sound crazy but, in 2015 Sugar's first Learners from 2007 will be in high school... a potentially large group of contributors?
11:40 walterbender (2) a strong message that learning through doing will be our focus...
11:40 (3) and to Mel's point, contributing to Sugar itself is part of the learning.
11:40 mchua SeanDaly: YES
11:40 SeanDaly Yes 1) sounds great
11:41 walterbender ^mel^sean
11:41 cjb (oh, hm -- my wife's thesis defense is in the middle of the GNOME hackfest.  so I won't be totally available, but we can still work something out.)
11:41 mchua walterbender: ...actually, I like those three points better than the longer goal statement.
11:41 I think that pretty much nails it, for me.
11:41 walterbender but I am not advocating that Sugar will replace school. teachers, instructionism, etc.
11:42 SeanDaly Yes, agree that 2) learning through doing a key idea
11:42 walterbender mchua: I'll try a more simple rewrite after the meeting.
11:43 mchua 2010 goals - what are the problems that we're trying to tackle *right now*?
11:43 walterbender Thanks for the feedback... back to the more tangible: 2010???
11:43 SeanDaly I think teachers will need to champion Sugar for it to arrive in classrooms
11:43 mchua walterbender: jinx :)
11:43 SeanDaly My best teachers got me to think independently
11:44 but my participation in Westinghouse PLAN made me quite skeptical of teachers ever after :D
11:44 walterbender SeanDaly: prob. a lot of that thinking happened outside of the classroom...
11:45 SeanDaly One day I will write up how PLAN at age 10 brought me to Sugar at age 47
11:45 walterbender SeanDaly: from the marketing perspective, we have some hard evidence now that 1-to-1 is more impactful in the informal than formal settings...
11:45 SeanDaly walterbender: Yes, and good timing, EU contacts want those docs and so did several visitors to BNP Paribas OLPC seminar in Paris
11:46 "under a tree" a key image
11:46 CanoeBerry Off topic perhaps: is the rumored Miami Sugar Camp still slated for 1st half of 2010, in addition toh Apr "14-18" (?) in Boston?
11:47 mchua walterbender: so, 2010 goals commenting, once again - "ambitious but vague - I'd rather that we got our house in order first"
11:47 walterbender CanoeBerry: we haven't scheduled it yet...
11:47 mchua CanoeBerry: "April 14-18" != Sugar Camp, if anything it's an in-person SLOBs pow-wow.
11:47 CanoeBerry Is the desire for a Miami Sugar Camp "1st half of 2010" or do I have this wrong?
11:47 walterbender mchua: maybe a goal is "get our house in order", but can you be more concrete?
11:47 mchua I don't think we have the time nor the resources to make April in Boston an actual Sugar Camp - trying to get more people from the community over, etc.
11:48 tomeu btw, I don't know how much time I will have during 14-18
11:48 I'm supposed to be hacking on python+gnome
11:48 cjb tomeu: perhaps you/we should pick whether to put sugar stuff after it or before it?
11:48 that way people can start to plan tickets etc
11:48 walterbender tomeu: even the harshest task master will gve you a couple of hours...
11:48 tomeu cjb: for walterbender, I understood that it works better before
11:49 CanoeBerry: if it's first half, we should get it going
11:49 SeanDaly imagining Gnomish taskmasters
11:49 cjb tomeu: walterbender: okay, so the 13th?
11:49 mchua walterbender: Sure - I would like to see 2010 goals be things like "all core Activities have maintainers responding for each of the two releases this year," and "weekly deployment feedback meetings," and "test cases written and executed for core functionality of both of our releases this year" - really basic "make a good FOSS software product" stuff.
11:49 cjb mchua: ooh, I like those
11:49 walterbender mchua: +1
11:50 cjb: 13th works for me... (Mel and I are busy 12-2 at MIT that day)
11:51 SeanDaly mchua: these good, but effective in context of resource allocation - we need to increase resources before/during
11:51 April 13th good for me too I think
11:52 cjb should we move on to GSOC?
11:52 walterbender cjb: yeah. I guess we are about out of time...
11:52 mchua walterbender: what do we want to do with these goals - how do we figure out what the final ones are, set a deadline for them, figure out how we'll tell whether we have reached them?
11:52 iow, next-steps for goals?
11:52 walterbender Mel, OK if I action you to edit the goals?
11:52 dogi waves
11:52 cjb (well, maybe we don't have too much to say about GSOC)
11:52 (since it looks like timClicks is doing a great job preparing the application)
11:53 walterbender cjb: yes... I mostly want to make sure everyone knows what Tim has been up to...
11:53 SeanDaly greets dogi
11:54 walterbender wrapping up the goals discussion...
11:54 mchua walterbender: Action away.
11:54 walterbender I think we need to sep. the goals themselves from the "have we reached them" issue...
11:55 mchua walterbender: +1
11:55 walterbender both are important, and perhaps we don't want to set too many unreachable, unmeasurable goals...
11:55 but clarity of purpose is paramount
11:55 SeanDaly I'd like to introduce goals which address our main barriers to adoption (besides obscurity): the installation barrier and the unfamiliarity barrier
11:56 walterbender SeanDaly: yes... installation, despite all the fine efforts of the SoaS team, remains a barrier for many.
11:57 a goal should be a lowcost access to prebuilt Sugar sticks.
11:57 (I am working on that one with a USB device manufacturer)
11:57 SeanDaly SoaS is the best we can do to lower installation barrier; every additional step towards reliability important
11:57 satellit__ SoaS Creation Kit DVD?
11:57 walterbender satellit_: a DVD would be great.
11:57 SeanDaly Yes for prebuilt sticks: lowers load barrier which is a blocker for many
11:58 satellit__: yes a great idea
11:58 mchua walterbender: (were we done with gsoc?)
11:58 walterbender SeanDaly: I can never remember the site where they are being sold, but it is very expensive, something like $40
11:58 satellit__ not my idea :SoaS Creation Kit (John Tierney) Marketing Digest, Vol 17, Issue 2-
11:58 Seems like a great idea...(Easy to Download DVD.iso with tools for Making stable Soas Sticks + Documentation)
11:58 walterbender mchua: we never really started...
11:58 SeanDaly where what is sold?
11:59 mchua walterbender: we've got 4 minutes left, we should talk gsoc if we're going to talk gsoc at all ;)
11:59 SeanDaly satellit__: yes responded on marketing list to JT
11:59 walterbender SeanDaly: someone is selling prebuild Strawberry (maybe Blueberry).
11:59 mchua We can keep talking about goals after meeting end, and I'll take responsibility for moving that convo to list when it winds down.
11:59 walterbender mchua: you are right...
11:59 SeanDaly ondisk was selling betas on SD Card for awhile
11:59 walterbender #action mel to update goals and update list
12:00 #action walter to reword 2015 goals as meeting notes.
12:00 #topic GSoC
12:00 Again, mostly just want people to be aware of the work being done by Tim...
12:01 He is very well organized and doing a great job of inviting community participation in the process.
12:02 mchua +1 hurrah for Tim!
12:02 He is doing an amazing job.
12:02 walterbender #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]ation_Application
12:03 CanoeBerry Aside: I hesitate to mention this, as folks will ask me for details I cannot give, but expect increased and changing marketing from OLPC in 2010. Something to watch for!
12:03 mchua looks at time
12:03 SeanDaly CanoeBerry: Yes, I want all the details :D
12:03 CanoeBerry Hah
12:03 walterbender CanoeBerry: from OLPC Foundation or Association?
12:03 cjb me too!
12:03 mchua walterbender: got anything else, or should we wrap the meeting and then go for goals discussion for whoever wants to stick around?
12:03 walterbender I think that it is a wrap...
12:04 Thanks everyone. You'll be hearing from Mel and me re our phone/face-to-face meeting schedules
12:04 CanoeBerry Hopefully Fdtn & Assn's marketing will be cleanly aligned as the public doesn't want to know the difference :)
12:04 walterbender Maybe we can augment next Friday's meeting with a phone call...
12:05 #endmeeting
12:06 CanoeBerry Sure.
12:06 SeanDaly me too
12:06 mchua I'm just listening in and shooting logs to list once the meeting's over, I think I've said most of what I wanted to say - that we need to get our house in order as a FOSS project first (get maintainers, get testing, etc) before we can do much else.
12:07 sits back, listens.
12:07 satellit__ walterbender: I am not sure I am able to build such a DVD.iso but I will make an attempt If you like...maybe with blueberry-direct (ext3) .img from bernie plus instructions and other instructional files...
12:08 walterbender satellit_it would be a huge win in terms of making it easier to distribute
12:08 satellit__ ok
12:09 will upload to Tgillard when I am ready with it.....
12:09 have to go......
12:09 walterbender ciao
12:12 mchua reads up to see what the discussion on goals was before
12:12 SeanDaly: you said something about goals that addressed our main barriers to adoption - installation and unfamiliarity?
12:12 is there anything else you wanted to bring up on that?
12:14 We have scarce resources to allocate, it's true - so knowing where to aim our capacity-building will help us get more of those resources in the medium term (in the "couple of months" time scale).
12:14 SeanDaly mchua: yes we need to lower those barriers
12:15 CanoeBerry mchua: later i want to hear more about RIT and your visits there if you can.
12:15 mchua CanoeBerry: Happy to tell the story now, too.
12:15 SeanDaly: Any particular things you'd like to see for 2010 re: lowering those barriers?
12:17 CanoeBerry Here's one way to dramatically lower barries to entry to Sugar & XO -- help us polish Walter's Getting Started in Washington DC Mch 27/28:
12:17 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Start
12:18 SeanDaly mchua: yes, for installation we need 1) bulletproof SoaS 2) OEM preinstall referencing
12:18 mchua CanoeBerry: aye, but a 2010 goal? ;)
12:18 SeanDaly: er, could you explain #2 a bit?
12:18 CanoeBerry mchua: 2010 yes, and beyond, why?
12:18 mchua SeanDaly: "companies selling SoaS pre-burned onto thumbdrives?"
12:19 SeanDaly mchua: foor unfamiliarity barrier we need to present the Sugar interface in some way that does not involve installation
12:19 walterbender CanoeBerry: it would be nice to have a version suitable to include on SoaS in the Browse startup...
12:19 mchua CanoeBerry: Well, I'm logging this convo because we were trying to wind down the goals discussion from the SLOBs meeting, so I'm trying to steer everything in the direction of "does this help us figure out our 2010 goals?"
12:19 SeanDaly OEM = Intel Classmate, Dell Latitide 2100 education netbook, &c
12:19 walterbender CanoeBerry: but it would have to be less OLPC-centric.
12:19 CanoeBerry http://laptop.org/start will be in many more languages than just English if we do a good job this time!
12:20 mchua SeanDaly: That would imply the support/QA bandwidth to handle those users - folks usually expect some sort of support if they pay for a thing.
12:20 walterbender SeanDaly: a css/javascript emulation, perhaps...
12:20 mchua Even if you tell them not to expect any formal support, as CanoeBerry can attest. ;)
12:20 CanoeBerry walterbender: not sure I understand
12:21 walterbender CanoeBerry: which thread?
12:21 CanoeBerry walterbender: it's ok, but i'm not sure i understand your disagreement above
12:22 walterbender CanoeBerry: disagreement?
12:23 CanoeBerry CanoeBerry: if you are asking for a change to Mike Lee & my pushing people to lower barriers to entry around Getting Started, yes
12:23 SeanDaly mchua: what users?
12:23 CanoeBerry walterbender: oops, didn't mean to speak to myself
12:24 walterbender CanoeBerry: I wasn't trying to derail the DC work, just wondering out loud if we can further leverage it for SoaS...
12:25 CanoeBerry Anyway Mike Lee's working hard on your Javascript from 2007 :)
12:26 mchua SeanDaly: ones that would purchase from OEM.
12:26 walterbender CanoeBerry: I need to dust off my JS skills... I was so much younger then...
12:27 CanoeBerry walterbender: your approach was golden simple-- Mike Lee & all of us have to figure out how to keep that, while introducing more languages etc
12:27 walterbender CanoeBerry: there is some work on i18n for JS... maybe the Karmac folks know...
12:28 SeanDaly mchua: OLPC is an OEM and has well over 1 million users, none of wjom are directly supported by SL
12:28 mchua: Dell sells directly into education buyer channel and has local partners for support
12:28 tomeu well, walterbender asks questions about turtleart in olpc-sur ;)
12:29 SeanDaly mchua: Intel has over 40 partners who assemble the Classmate under favorable licensing terms, and sell either to govs, edu depts, or the public
12:30 mchua: we are not now, and won't be, able to support 10 million users ourselves; that's why local Labs need to proliferate and system vendors build a services model which included support
12:31 walterbender SeanDaly: I agree with where you are heading, but in fact the OLPC deployments, for the most part, do interact directly with SL
12:31 SeanDaly: and lean on us for some support...
12:32 SeanDaly: tomeu, bernie, et al. are shaping that engagement in a way that hopefully will lead to a more distributed dev. and support model.
12:32 SeanDaly: tomeu in .uy and bernie in .py
12:32 mchua nods. I think a lot of it is expectation-setting, and it's good to see that continuously happening.
12:33 tomeu wonders often about what happened with .pe
12:33 SeanDaly Sure, but deployments <> end users
12:33 the model that works is a chain, from local proximate support, to region, to OEM and SL
12:33 depending on the issue
12:34 for sure, more interaction with deployments very very positive
12:34 walterbender tomeu: .pe is making headway, but it has been slower to accept a direct role by community players
12:35 SeanDaly: I think a big stumbling block for potential OEMs is the support issue. If we can demonstrate that the local community/global community model works, for the Sugar bits at least, then we would lower the pain threshold for potential OEMs
12:36 SeanDaly walterbender: yes, agree with analysis (although have had only brief contact with Dell and none as yet with Intel)
12:37 walterbender SeanDaly: I should connect you with the Intel folks...
12:37 SeanDaly yes you had showed me a mail from them but yes pls what you have
12:37 contacts
12:42 mchua is the 2010 goals discussion pretty much wrapped up by now?
12:43 I'm not sure the OEM stuff fits in 2010 goals, but I could be wrong. ;)
12:45 SeanDaly mchua: it's absolutely 2010 if a goal is to lower the installation barrier
12:46 any OEM deal would radically change Sugar's status as an option for schools
12:46 mchua SeanDaly: "Have a preinstalled Sugar-running device available for individual purchase"?
12:47 hesitant to scope that further until we get things like "core Activity maintenance" in order
12:49 has to head out for a bit, will be back to close logs and send notes to list later.
12:49 Any further 2010 goals braindumping, put 'em here.
12:51 SeanDaly no, more like "obtain referenced status for Sugar on education-targeted hardware"
12:53 cjb mchua_afk: maybe #endmeeting time?
12:53 oh, you said that already, ok
13:01 walterbender dogi: hi..
13:01 dogi: I
13:01 dogi hi walterbender
13:01 walterbender dogi: I'll be at MIT next Wednesday...
13:01 dogi: maybe we can meet to catch up?
13:02 SeanDaly needs to log off
13:03 tomeu SeanDaly: cheers!
13:04 SeanDaly bye
13:07 CanoeBerry walterbender: is dogi/mel/anybody here around MIT today? yourself?
13:08 RIT scheduling should be discussed around Apr 29 - May 1 too!
13:09 walterbender I am not on campus again until Wed.
13:16 dogi back
13:17 walterbender, yes will around wednesday
13:24 mchua_afk #endmeeting
13:24 mchua #endmeeting

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