Time |
Nick |
Message |
10:48 |
erikos |
#TOPIC Design Meeting Home View |
10:48 |
|
#LINK http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/022612.html |
10:48 |
|
the link above has the written summary of the evaluation |
10:48 |
christianmarcsch |
thanks, that's helpful |
10:49 |
|
i'll take a second to read over it |
10:49 |
garycmartin |
erikos: do you know Geralds IRC name? I think the emails talked about meeting in #sugar so he may be waiting there? |
10:50 |
erikos |
garycmartin: no, i don't know his nick :/ |
10:50 |
|
let me know when you finished reading the text |
10:50 |
christianmarcsch |
done1 |
10:50 |
|
! |
10:50 |
|
so simon--you tested the revised build, correct? |
10:50 |
|
with start new as the default? |
10:50 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: I did test both builds |
10:51 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: which one did you start with? |
10:51 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: what I did was: one kid the old build |
10:51 |
|
christianmarcsch: the another one the new build |
10:51 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: excellent |
10:51 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: I did test one build per hid |
10:51 |
|
that is how I read your test description |
10:51 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: and how large was your class? |
10:52 |
|
erikos: yes ;) |
10:52 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: well, I only managed to do 3 kids :/ |
10:52 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: oh |
10:52 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: as it took me 10 minutes per kid |
10:52 |
|
to do the test |
10:52 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: so you tested one build twice, the other one time |
10:53 |
|
erikos: 10 mins is longer than i initially though it would take, but understandable that it might take more time |
10:53 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: yup, but I think the outcome would not have changed significantly |
10:53 |
walterbender |
waves... didn't realize it was so late... |
10:53 |
christianmarcsch |
hi walterbender |
10:53 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: my class is a bit special in the sense, that I explained them many times already how to start new and resume activities |
10:54 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: right, saw that in the overview |
10:54 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: that is why it would have been good to hear from Gerald |
10:54 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: it will be interesting to contrast with gerald's findings |
10:54 |
erikos |
hey walterbender |
10:55 |
|
christianmarcsch: what I am quite certain about right now is: right click is not an option we can rely on |
10:55 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: anyway, how did you conclude that start new was the preferred default behavior? |
10:55 |
walterbender |
It seems we are still convolving two different issues in the tests/discussion: start/resume vs using the journal for annotation, reflection (write anytime, easier journal access, etc.) |
10:55 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: because the option is "hidden" |
10:56 |
|
christianmarcsch: the kids wait for the palette to appear, they don't use right click |
10:56 |
|
christianmarcsch: and this is the only place they can start something new |
10:56 |
walterbender |
erikos: did you try setting the timeout for the hover menu to 0? |
10:56 |
christianmarcsch |
walterbender: yes, sounds like we may be conflating a few things... |
10:57 |
walterbender |
secondary menu, I mean |
10:57 |
erikos |
walterbender: no, I did not do that |
10:57 |
christianmarcsch |
walterbender: the primary purpose of the test was to help us know what to do with start new vs. resume |
10:58 |
|
erikos: can you talk about how kids responded to the new build? |
10:58 |
walterbender |
christianmarcsch: yes... erikos's test... but I think Gerald had other concerns... but I will let him speak for himself. |
10:58 |
garycmartin |
erikos: from Geralds email is seems you found opposing results. |
10:59 |
erikos |
garycmartin: gerald's email is a mixed, and b I was uncertain how to fullt interpret it ;p |
10:59 |
christianmarcsch |
i wonder if we should resume this when gerald is online |
10:59 |
garycmartin |
looks for his magic 8 ball |
10:59 |
christianmarcsch |
it would be good to hear both test results... |
10:59 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: that would work for me |
11:00 |
garycmartin |
christianmarcsch: +1 |
11:00 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: I think the kids can adopt to both versions |
11:00 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: that may be true, but we need to have enough confidence in one vs. the other to be able to set a default |
11:00 |
|
i can try for later this afternoon |
11:00 |
erikos |
is away later |
11:01 |
|
christianmarcsch: yeah, its is hard |
11:01 |
|
christianmarcsch: for example, the kids get quite well what the color is for |
11:01 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: that's one thing i wanted to evaluate. good to hear that they understand the metaphor |
11:02 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: that indicator works very well |
11:02 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: they realize that color is to "resume" |
11:02 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: they call it: we have done some work in that activity already |
11:02 |
|
christianmarcsch: or "we have used it already" |
11:03 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: it becomes a question of which behavior is more natural, and which more frequently needed (resume/start new) |
11:03 |
|
erikos: that makes sense--glad the color communicates |
11:04 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: to me the main issue is: they just click on th eicon |
11:04 |
|
christianmarcsch: most of them do not wait for the palette to appear |
11:04 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: even though they may want to start a new activity? |
11:04 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: yes, they forget about it |
11:04 |
|
christianmarcsch: and then they have to close it again |
11:04 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: and then they want to start new inside the activity? |
11:04 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: or are confused hat happened |
11:04 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: i see |
11:05 |
|
erikos: another solution could be to "start new" from within the activity |
11:05 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: they do not always think that stratigically |
11:05 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: and so kids know to go to the journal to resume |
11:05 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: or to display the palette when you click on the icon |
11:05 |
|
christianmarcsch: yes that works very well |
11:06 |
|
christianmarcsch: so, the journal is not alwasy attractive for resuming |
11:06 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: we used to have an issue that kids didn't know to resume from the journal, and therefor we put that functionality in home |
11:06 |
|
erikos: why is that? |
11:06 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: as in the home view, it is filtered by activity type |
11:07 |
|
christianmarcsch: (i just mean, it depends what you want to resume) |
11:07 |
garycmartin |
christianmarcsch: start activity -> 'templates' (new template + resumable objects) -> activity interface. |
11:07 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: I think both resume options makes sense |
11:07 |
christianmarcsch |
is that gerald? |
11:07 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: and it is good to have them |
11:07 |
garycmartin |
christianmarcsch: it's how the iPhone iPad does it (very successfully if you ask me). |
11:07 |
gmanb5 |
yes. sorry for being late |
11:08 |
erikos |
hey gmanb5 ! :) |
11:08 |
christianmarcsch |
ah, great! |
11:08 |
|
geralde, simon just gave us an update on his test |
11:08 |
silbe |
gmanb5: welcome :) |
11:08 |
christianmarcsch |
gerald: could you let us know how your test went? |
11:08 |
gmanb5 |
Sure. |
11:08 |
|
I worked with about a half dozen students |
11:08 |
erikos |
garycmartin: can you explain more on the iphone interface? |
11:09 |
gmanb5 |
using the build that Simon put together |
11:09 |
|
Just for the record, we were running it on Dell Latitude 2100 Netbooks |
11:09 |
|
The students loved the New versus Resume feature |
11:10 |
|
They talked about how not good it is (their words) to have to find stuff in the Journal |
11:10 |
erikos |
gmanb5: which build did you use before? |
11:10 |
gmanb5 |
especially if you forget to rename it |
11:10 |
erikos |
gmanb5: or, which Sugar version |
11:10 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: so you are saying they preferred resume over start new in home? |
11:10 |
gmanb5 |
Prior to the test, we have been using Sugar .82 on the XO laptops |
11:10 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: in other words the original build? |
11:11 |
gmanb5 |
Yes |
11:11 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: can you explain why ? |
11:11 |
gmanb5 |
They liked the functionality exactly how it was in this build |
11:11 |
garycmartin |
erikos: 'home' is just for starting apps, most don't have much document state, but those that are generally show a screen of templates and old documents. So it's two taps, one for the 'activity' then one for either 'new' or and old resume. |
11:11 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: in 0.82 there was no functionality to resume from home |
11:11 |
gmanb5 |
That when they choose and activity, they have a choice to start something new OR resume earlier work. |
11:11 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: at all, I mean |
11:11 |
gmanb5 |
That set up totally made sense to them. |
11:12 |
|
Christian, in terms of why. |
11:12 |
|
I think it is because it matched how they are actually thinking. |
11:12 |
|
I start an app/activity |
11:12 |
|
and the first question is what do I want to do? |
11:12 |
silbe |
garycmartin: that's quite similar to what mstone proposed, except for UI differences naturally |
11:12 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: that's very interesting |
11:12 |
gmanb5 |
In this build, the choice is right there in the Home View |
11:13 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: how so? |
11:13 |
|
gmanb5: you mean the default is start new, and resume is in the menu? |
11:13 |
gmanb5 |
The default didn't matter to them. The choice mattered. |
11:13 |
erikos |
garycmartin: right, so that would be a bit like just showing the activity palette when you click on the icon, then you select |
11:14 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: yes, but help me understand what we are evaluating. i'm not familiar with 0.82 |
11:14 |
gmanb5 |
In .82, you have a Home View, just like in this build. |
11:14 |
|
When you click on an icon, you always and only get to start a new activity. |
11:14 |
|
If you want to resume, you must go to the Journal |
11:14 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: i see |
11:14 |
gmanb5 |
or open from the activity once it's running. |
11:14 |
garycmartin |
erikos: after the click on an activity, you'd switch to a full screen template selector (before the pulsing icon starts). |
11:15 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: and you can resume from the hover palette? |
11:15 |
erikos |
garycmartin: or that, but two tabs would be fine with me too |
11:15 |
|
christianmarcsch: not in 0.82 |
11:15 |
gmanb5 |
Yes. In the hover pallette, you are presented with recently done work (by titles) to pick. |
11:16 |
silbe |
gmanb5: and your students were using 0.82 exclusively before? Their first exposure to being able to resume from the home screen was during the test? |
11:16 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: ok. and did kids find the palette in your tests? |
11:16 |
gmanb5 |
Silbe: this was their first exposure, yes. |
11:16 |
|
christianmarsch: I had to show them the pallette |
11:16 |
|
but once they got it, they loved it. |
11:16 |
erikos |
hah! :) |
11:17 |
christianmarcsch |
regarding the palette, i think we can assume it is slightly more "advanced" functionality |
11:17 |
gmanb5 |
Hah!? I don't understand |
11:17 |
erikos |
is more and more convinced that what gary proposes is the right thing to do |
11:17 |
|
gmanb5: I think the issue is - that the palette is just not obvious in the first place |
11:17 |
gmanb5 |
Well, I think you have to consider that there is a differentiated user experience |
11:17 |
|
with my 5th graders at least |
11:17 |
erikos |
gmanb5: and that many kids just click, without thinking |
11:18 |
gmanb5 |
the applications/activities themselves are pretty easy to use |
11:18 |
silbe |
so I guess one result from the tests is that being able to resume from the home screen is more convenient, most likely because it's pre-"filtered" by activity. |
11:18 |
gmanb5 |
but the operating system requires some instruction/prior exposure to be really useful |
11:18 |
erikos |
silbe: I would not say more convinient, just another good way to do so |
11:18 |
gmanb5 |
And, I'm not sure that this is a bad thing. |
11:19 |
silbe |
erikos: gmanb5 wrot "[...] how not good it is (their words) to have to find stuff in the Journal" |
11:19 |
|
erikos: I interpret that as more convenient. FWIW it matches my own experience using Sugar quite well. |
11:19 |
erikos |
silbe: sure, I read that, so I think resuming from the Journal has some merit, too |
11:20 |
silbe |
erikos: oh, I see what you mean. Yes, resume from Journal is important, too - just at different times. |
11:20 |
christianmarcsch |
this all seems to point towards having start new as the default when clicking an activity in home, but to leave resume in the hover palette |
11:20 |
|
though i also wonder if there is another option here |
11:20 |
|
as gerald says, the choice is what matters |
11:21 |
gmanb5 |
One more thing, if I may |
11:21 |
silbe |
gmanb5: go ahead |
11:21 |
gmanb5 |
The students were a bit confused by (what are to them) the new Sugar toolbars. |
11:21 |
|
.82 doesn't have them, and they were not immediately obvious. |
11:21 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: is that because they were familiar with the old toolbars? |
11:22 |
gmanb5 |
I am sure they would have gotten them worked out with some more time, |
11:22 |
|
but not in this limited test. |
11:22 |
silbe |
gmanb5: do you think it's merely a matter of being used to the old interface, or is there someone about the new ones that makes them worse? |
11:22 |
gmanb5 |
Both, I think. |
11:22 |
|
Certainly, a part of it is experience. |
11:23 |
christianmarcsch |
gmanb5: were you able to identify what about the new toolbars was confusing? |
11:23 |
garycmartin |
gmanb5: is lack of text names an issue? |
11:23 |
gmanb5 |
But, part of it was that in the old toolbars, everything is really right there. |
11:23 |
christianmarcsch |
(back in 2 mins) |
11:23 |
gmanb5 |
garycmartin: I am sure that is true, too. |
11:24 |
|
I guess my point is that adult users, like ourselves, especially developers are going to seek a particularly elegant solution |
11:24 |
|
like the new toolbars. |
11:24 |
|
which might not match how the intended audience might respond to them. |
11:24 |
|
I am not saying that these 6 kids are representative, |
11:24 |
|
but I do think their experience is worth noting. |
11:25 |
erikos |
gmanb5: that is why we try to get feedback with these tests we do |
11:25 |
gmanb5 |
erikos: of course |
11:26 |
christianmarcsch |
(back now) |
11:26 |
erikos |
gmanb5: though, we need to take it with a grain of salt, too |
11:26 |
gmanb5 |
erikos: of course |
11:26 |
erikos |
gmanb5: as there is a difference between long term users, first time users etc |
11:26 |
|
gmanb5: but sure, I am happy we have set up a good start! :) |
11:26 |
gmanb5 |
erikos: well, these guys have about 6 months experience, and are pretty sophisticated |
11:27 |
christianmarcsch |
i don't think the first-time user should be the focus here |
11:27 |
gmanb5 |
erikos: and, they LOVE the XOs and Sugar and they are both powerful tools for the students. |
11:27 |
erikos |
gmanb5: we should evaluate the toolbars in another test, maybe |
11:27 |
christianmarcsch |
since we are dealing with a classroom environment... |
11:27 |
erikos |
gmanb5: of course, happy to do that, too |
11:28 |
|
should we try to sum up the home view survey? |
11:28 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: that would be great |
11:28 |
erikos |
listens to christianmarcsch then |
11:29 |
|
has a summary, too (if asked :) |
11:29 |
gmanb5 |
christianmarcsch: I need to leave the meeting |
11:29 |
christianmarcsch |
thanks gerald |
11:29 |
gmanb5 |
Sure. Thanks for having me. |
11:29 |
erikos |
thank gmanb5 ! |
11:29 |
christianmarcsch |
appreciate your help with this! |
11:29 |
silbe |
erikos: post it and we'll see whether we agree ;) |
11:29 |
garycmartin |
gmanb5: thanks! |
11:29 |
gmanb5 |
Any time! |
11:29 |
silbe |
gmanb5: thanks for testing and participating in the meeting! |
11:29 |
erikos |
silbe: I first want to hear christianmarcsch ;p |
11:29 |
gmanb5 |
So long, all. Thanks for all the great work! |
11:29 |
christianmarcsch |
so... |
11:30 |
|
one interesting thing i heard gerald say is that kids want the choice of being able to either start new, or resume |
11:30 |
|
and i take it he meant from home directly |
11:30 |
erikos |
understood it that way, too |
11:30 |
christianmarcsch |
in other words, kids may be clicking on an icon with both expectations-- |
11:30 |
|
that it would either start a new instance, or resume an old one |
11:31 |
|
erikos, does that match your findings as well? |
11:31 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: yes, I think having the resume option in home is great |
11:32 |
christianmarcsch |
well, i'm talking even more abstract about the general expectation that exists when selecting an activity |
11:32 |
silbe |
christianmarcsch: not sure that would actually be their expectations or if it's just more convenient (because it's pre-filtered by activity). Otherwise agreed. |
11:32 |
christianmarcsch |
one other thing we have seen is that the hover menus are advanced |
11:32 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: most of the kids click on the activity because they want to work in that activity |
11:32 |
christianmarcsch |
and that kids in the beginning at least don't discover them |
11:33 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: they do not make a plan before, if resume or start new |
11:33 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: exactly |
11:33 |
|
erikos: so when do they realize that they want to resume an old activity? |
11:33 |
|
erikos: before, or after selecting the activity? |
11:33 |
silbe |
erikos: ok, that would argue towards expectations rather than just being more convenient... |
11:33 |
erikos |
ChanServ: after, I would say |
11:33 |
|
christianmarcsch: ^^ |
11:34 |
christianmarcsch |
let's not think about convenience just yet |
11:34 |
|
i think it's more important to understand the mental model |
11:34 |
silbe |
christianmarcsch: that's exactly what I'm trying to do |
11:34 |
christianmarcsch |
silbe: right, i know. just don't want to get caught up in usability just yet |
11:34 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: so: select activity, then: select either resume or start new |
11:35 |
silbe |
christianmarcsch: and it makes it differences whether they use the option because they expect it to work that way, or just because it's more convenient than anything we currently offer |
11:35 |
christianmarcsch |
ok |
11:35 |
|
silbe: you're right |
11:35 |
|
so, i think what simon just pointed out is the critical point here |
11:36 |
|
that the decision to resume or start a new instance comes after the desire to generally work in an activity |
11:36 |
silbe |
christianmarcsch: yep, I think that too. |
11:36 |
christianmarcsch |
that may have been mstone's point in an earlier meeting |
11:36 |
|
but in any case, |
11:37 |
silbe |
it argues for making both options equal "partners" in the UI |
11:37 |
christianmarcsch |
if we agree on the premise, then the question becomes how to solve for it in the UI |
11:37 |
|
silbe: that's right |
11:37 |
erikos |
hurray! |
11:37 |
|
I think we are on the right track |
11:37 |
christianmarcsch |
i think so too |
11:38 |
|
so, |
11:38 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: garycmartin said a full screen window after you click on the activity |
11:38 |
christianmarcsch |
i feel like this is a step forward, and that we should summarize these findings, before jumping into solutions |
11:38 |
|
also-- |
11:38 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: where you can select |
11:38 |
|
christianmarcsch: you are right |
11:38 |
christianmarcsch |
i think eben should be here as well when we are brainstorming how to handle the situation |
11:39 |
|
so my suggestion would be: |
11:39 |
|
let's formalize this, and reconvene next saturday with the design team |
11:39 |
|
and figure out a solution |
11:39 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: +1 |
11:39 |
garycmartin |
christianmarcsch: +1 |
11:40 |
silbe |
christianmarcsch: +1 |
11:40 |
christianmarcsch |
i'm happy to write up a summary, since i started the test-thread |
11:40 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: awesome! |
11:40 |
christianmarcsch |
feeling like this was a very productive thing to do |
11:40 |
silbe |
christianmarcsch: that would be great |
11:40 |
erikos |
absolutely, I am very very happy! |
11:41 |
christianmarcsch |
excellent! |
11:41 |
garycmartin |
erikos: I take it this is for 0.90 now? |
11:41 |
christianmarcsch |
i feel like this helped us get to a new place with the design |
11:41 |
erikos |
and next week again 15:30? |
11:41 |
|
garycmartin: of course |
11:42 |
christianmarcsch |
yes, let's do next saturday at 10:30 EST/15:30 UST |
11:42 |
erikos |
yup |
11:42 |
silbe |
garycmartin: yep - that also means we have enough time to work on the details, which is quite important. |
11:42 |
erikos |
ok, thanks everyone for joining in! |
11:42 |
garycmartin |
silbe: Yea, for sure! |
11:42 |
christianmarcsch |
thanks |
11:42 |
silbe |
christianmarcsch: 15:30 UTC you mean? |
11:42 |
christianmarcsch |
sorry, that's what i mean ;) |
11:42 |
silbe |
ok, looking forward to it :) |
11:42 |
christianmarcsch |
great-- see you next week! |
11:42 |
erikos |
#ACTION: christianmarcsch to write a summary with the findings and send it to sugar-devel |
11:43 |
|
#endmeeting |