| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 10:48 | erikos | #TOPIC Design Meeting Home View |
| 10:48 | #LINK http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/022612.html | |
| 10:48 | the link above has the written summary of the evaluation | |
| 10:48 | christianmarcsch | thanks, that's helpful |
| 10:49 | i'll take a second to read over it | |
| 10:49 | garycmartin | erikos: do you know Geralds IRC name? I think the emails talked about meeting in #sugar so he may be waiting there? |
| 10:50 | erikos | garycmartin: no, i don't know his nick :/ |
| 10:50 | let me know when you finished reading the text | |
| 10:50 | christianmarcsch | done1 |
| 10:50 | ! | |
| 10:50 | so simon--you tested the revised build, correct? | |
| 10:50 | with start new as the default? | |
| 10:50 | erikos | christianmarcsch: I did test both builds |
| 10:51 | christianmarcsch | erikos: which one did you start with? |
| 10:51 | erikos | christianmarcsch: what I did was: one kid the old build |
| 10:51 | christianmarcsch: the another one the new build | |
| 10:51 | christianmarcsch | erikos: excellent |
| 10:51 | erikos | christianmarcsch: I did test one build per hid |
| 10:51 | that is how I read your test description | |
| 10:51 | christianmarcsch | erikos: and how large was your class? |
| 10:52 | erikos: yes ;) | |
| 10:52 | erikos | christianmarcsch: well, I only managed to do 3 kids :/ |
| 10:52 | christianmarcsch | erikos: oh |
| 10:52 | erikos | christianmarcsch: as it took me 10 minutes per kid |
| 10:52 | to do the test | |
| 10:52 | christianmarcsch | erikos: so you tested one build twice, the other one time |
| 10:53 | erikos: 10 mins is longer than i initially though it would take, but understandable that it might take more time | |
| 10:53 | erikos | christianmarcsch: yup, but I think the outcome would not have changed significantly |
| 10:53 | walterbender | waves... didn't realize it was so late... |
| 10:53 | christianmarcsch | hi walterbender |
| 10:53 | erikos | christianmarcsch: my class is a bit special in the sense, that I explained them many times already how to start new and resume activities |
| 10:54 | christianmarcsch | erikos: right, saw that in the overview |
| 10:54 | erikos | christianmarcsch: that is why it would have been good to hear from Gerald |
| 10:54 | christianmarcsch | erikos: it will be interesting to contrast with gerald's findings |
| 10:54 | erikos | hey walterbender |
| 10:55 | christianmarcsch: what I am quite certain about right now is: right click is not an option we can rely on | |
| 10:55 | christianmarcsch | erikos: anyway, how did you conclude that start new was the preferred default behavior? |
| 10:55 | walterbender | It seems we are still convolving two different issues in the tests/discussion: start/resume vs using the journal for annotation, reflection (write anytime, easier journal access, etc.) |
| 10:55 | erikos | christianmarcsch: because the option is "hidden" |
| 10:56 | christianmarcsch: the kids wait for the palette to appear, they don't use right click | |
| 10:56 | christianmarcsch: and this is the only place they can start something new | |
| 10:56 | walterbender | erikos: did you try setting the timeout for the hover menu to 0? |
| 10:56 | christianmarcsch | walterbender: yes, sounds like we may be conflating a few things... |
| 10:57 | walterbender | secondary menu, I mean |
| 10:57 | erikos | walterbender: no, I did not do that |
| 10:57 | christianmarcsch | walterbender: the primary purpose of the test was to help us know what to do with start new vs. resume |
| 10:58 | erikos: can you talk about how kids responded to the new build? | |
| 10:58 | walterbender | christianmarcsch: yes... erikos's test... but I think Gerald had other concerns... but I will let him speak for himself. |
| 10:58 | garycmartin | erikos: from Geralds email is seems you found opposing results. |
| 10:59 | erikos | garycmartin: gerald's email is a mixed, and b I was uncertain how to fullt interpret it ;p |
| 10:59 | christianmarcsch | i wonder if we should resume this when gerald is online |
| 10:59 | garycmartin | looks for his magic 8 ball |
| 10:59 | christianmarcsch | it would be good to hear both test results... |
| 10:59 | erikos | christianmarcsch: that would work for me |
| 11:00 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: +1 |
| 11:00 | erikos | christianmarcsch: I think the kids can adopt to both versions |
| 11:00 | christianmarcsch | erikos: that may be true, but we need to have enough confidence in one vs. the other to be able to set a default |
| 11:00 | i can try for later this afternoon | |
| 11:00 | erikos | is away later |
| 11:01 | christianmarcsch: yeah, its is hard | |
| 11:01 | christianmarcsch: for example, the kids get quite well what the color is for | |
| 11:01 | christianmarcsch | erikos: that's one thing i wanted to evaluate. good to hear that they understand the metaphor |
| 11:02 | erikos | christianmarcsch: that indicator works very well |
| 11:02 | christianmarcsch | erikos: they realize that color is to "resume" |
| 11:02 | erikos | christianmarcsch: they call it: we have done some work in that activity already |
| 11:02 | christianmarcsch: or "we have used it already" | |
| 11:03 | christianmarcsch | erikos: it becomes a question of which behavior is more natural, and which more frequently needed (resume/start new) |
| 11:03 | erikos: that makes sense--glad the color communicates | |
| 11:04 | erikos | christianmarcsch: to me the main issue is: they just click on th eicon |
| 11:04 | christianmarcsch: most of them do not wait for the palette to appear | |
| 11:04 | christianmarcsch | erikos: even though they may want to start a new activity? |
| 11:04 | erikos | christianmarcsch: yes, they forget about it |
| 11:04 | christianmarcsch: and then they have to close it again | |
| 11:04 | christianmarcsch | erikos: and then they want to start new inside the activity? |
| 11:04 | erikos | christianmarcsch: or are confused hat happened |
| 11:04 | christianmarcsch | erikos: i see |
| 11:05 | erikos: another solution could be to "start new" from within the activity | |
| 11:05 | erikos | christianmarcsch: they do not always think that stratigically |
| 11:05 | christianmarcsch | erikos: and so kids know to go to the journal to resume |
| 11:05 | erikos | christianmarcsch: or to display the palette when you click on the icon |
| 11:05 | christianmarcsch: yes that works very well | |
| 11:06 | christianmarcsch: so, the journal is not alwasy attractive for resuming | |
| 11:06 | christianmarcsch | erikos: we used to have an issue that kids didn't know to resume from the journal, and therefor we put that functionality in home |
| 11:06 | erikos: why is that? | |
| 11:06 | erikos | christianmarcsch: as in the home view, it is filtered by activity type |
| 11:07 | christianmarcsch: (i just mean, it depends what you want to resume) | |
| 11:07 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: start activity -> 'templates' (new template + resumable objects) -> activity interface. |
| 11:07 | erikos | christianmarcsch: I think both resume options makes sense |
| 11:07 | christianmarcsch | is that gerald? |
| 11:07 | erikos | christianmarcsch: and it is good to have them |
| 11:07 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: it's how the iPhone iPad does it (very successfully if you ask me). |
| 11:07 | gmanb5 | yes. sorry for being late |
| 11:08 | erikos | hey gmanb5 ! :) |
| 11:08 | christianmarcsch | ah, great! |
| 11:08 | geralde, simon just gave us an update on his test | |
| 11:08 | silbe | gmanb5: welcome :) |
| 11:08 | christianmarcsch | gerald: could you let us know how your test went? |
| 11:08 | gmanb5 | Sure. |
| 11:08 | I worked with about a half dozen students | |
| 11:08 | erikos | garycmartin: can you explain more on the iphone interface? |
| 11:09 | gmanb5 | using the build that Simon put together |
| 11:09 | Just for the record, we were running it on Dell Latitude 2100 Netbooks | |
| 11:09 | The students loved the New versus Resume feature | |
| 11:10 | They talked about how not good it is (their words) to have to find stuff in the Journal | |
| 11:10 | erikos | gmanb5: which build did you use before? |
| 11:10 | gmanb5 | especially if you forget to rename it |
| 11:10 | erikos | gmanb5: or, which Sugar version |
| 11:10 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: so you are saying they preferred resume over start new in home? |
| 11:10 | gmanb5 | Prior to the test, we have been using Sugar .82 on the XO laptops |
| 11:10 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: in other words the original build? |
| 11:11 | gmanb5 | Yes |
| 11:11 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: can you explain why ? |
| 11:11 | gmanb5 | They liked the functionality exactly how it was in this build |
| 11:11 | garycmartin | erikos: 'home' is just for starting apps, most don't have much document state, but those that are generally show a screen of templates and old documents. So it's two taps, one for the 'activity' then one for either 'new' or and old resume. |
| 11:11 | erikos | christianmarcsch: in 0.82 there was no functionality to resume from home |
| 11:11 | gmanb5 | That when they choose and activity, they have a choice to start something new OR resume earlier work. |
| 11:11 | erikos | christianmarcsch: at all, I mean |
| 11:11 | gmanb5 | That set up totally made sense to them. |
| 11:12 | Christian, in terms of why. | |
| 11:12 | I think it is because it matched how they are actually thinking. | |
| 11:12 | I start an app/activity | |
| 11:12 | and the first question is what do I want to do? | |
| 11:12 | silbe | garycmartin: that's quite similar to what mstone proposed, except for UI differences naturally |
| 11:12 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: that's very interesting |
| 11:12 | gmanb5 | In this build, the choice is right there in the Home View |
| 11:13 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: how so? |
| 11:13 | gmanb5: you mean the default is start new, and resume is in the menu? | |
| 11:13 | gmanb5 | The default didn't matter to them. The choice mattered. |
| 11:13 | erikos | garycmartin: right, so that would be a bit like just showing the activity palette when you click on the icon, then you select |
| 11:14 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: yes, but help me understand what we are evaluating. i'm not familiar with 0.82 |
| 11:14 | gmanb5 | In .82, you have a Home View, just like in this build. |
| 11:14 | When you click on an icon, you always and only get to start a new activity. | |
| 11:14 | If you want to resume, you must go to the Journal | |
| 11:14 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: i see |
| 11:14 | gmanb5 | or open from the activity once it's running. |
| 11:14 | garycmartin | erikos: after the click on an activity, you'd switch to a full screen template selector (before the pulsing icon starts). |
| 11:15 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: and you can resume from the hover palette? |
| 11:15 | erikos | garycmartin: or that, but two tabs would be fine with me too |
| 11:15 | christianmarcsch: not in 0.82 | |
| 11:15 | gmanb5 | Yes. In the hover pallette, you are presented with recently done work (by titles) to pick. |
| 11:16 | silbe | gmanb5: and your students were using 0.82 exclusively before? Their first exposure to being able to resume from the home screen was during the test? |
| 11:16 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: ok. and did kids find the palette in your tests? |
| 11:16 | gmanb5 | Silbe: this was their first exposure, yes. |
| 11:16 | christianmarsch: I had to show them the pallette | |
| 11:16 | but once they got it, they loved it. | |
| 11:16 | erikos | hah! :) |
| 11:17 | christianmarcsch | regarding the palette, i think we can assume it is slightly more "advanced" functionality |
| 11:17 | gmanb5 | Hah!? I don't understand |
| 11:17 | erikos | is more and more convinced that what gary proposes is the right thing to do |
| 11:17 | gmanb5: I think the issue is - that the palette is just not obvious in the first place | |
| 11:17 | gmanb5 | Well, I think you have to consider that there is a differentiated user experience |
| 11:17 | with my 5th graders at least | |
| 11:17 | erikos | gmanb5: and that many kids just click, without thinking |
| 11:18 | gmanb5 | the applications/activities themselves are pretty easy to use |
| 11:18 | silbe | so I guess one result from the tests is that being able to resume from the home screen is more convenient, most likely because it's pre-"filtered" by activity. |
| 11:18 | gmanb5 | but the operating system requires some instruction/prior exposure to be really useful |
| 11:18 | erikos | silbe: I would not say more convinient, just another good way to do so |
| 11:18 | gmanb5 | And, I'm not sure that this is a bad thing. |
| 11:19 | silbe | erikos: gmanb5 wrot "[...] how not good it is (their words) to have to find stuff in the Journal" |
| 11:19 | erikos: I interpret that as more convenient. FWIW it matches my own experience using Sugar quite well. | |
| 11:19 | erikos | silbe: sure, I read that, so I think resuming from the Journal has some merit, too |
| 11:20 | silbe | erikos: oh, I see what you mean. Yes, resume from Journal is important, too - just at different times. |
| 11:20 | christianmarcsch | this all seems to point towards having start new as the default when clicking an activity in home, but to leave resume in the hover palette |
| 11:20 | though i also wonder if there is another option here | |
| 11:20 | as gerald says, the choice is what matters | |
| 11:21 | gmanb5 | One more thing, if I may |
| 11:21 | silbe | gmanb5: go ahead |
| 11:21 | gmanb5 | The students were a bit confused by (what are to them) the new Sugar toolbars. |
| 11:21 | .82 doesn't have them, and they were not immediately obvious. | |
| 11:21 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: is that because they were familiar with the old toolbars? |
| 11:22 | gmanb5 | I am sure they would have gotten them worked out with some more time, |
| 11:22 | but not in this limited test. | |
| 11:22 | silbe | gmanb5: do you think it's merely a matter of being used to the old interface, or is there someone about the new ones that makes them worse? |
| 11:22 | gmanb5 | Both, I think. |
| 11:22 | Certainly, a part of it is experience. | |
| 11:23 | christianmarcsch | gmanb5: were you able to identify what about the new toolbars was confusing? |
| 11:23 | garycmartin | gmanb5: is lack of text names an issue? |
| 11:23 | gmanb5 | But, part of it was that in the old toolbars, everything is really right there. |
| 11:23 | christianmarcsch | (back in 2 mins) |
| 11:23 | gmanb5 | garycmartin: I am sure that is true, too. |
| 11:24 | I guess my point is that adult users, like ourselves, especially developers are going to seek a particularly elegant solution | |
| 11:24 | like the new toolbars. | |
| 11:24 | which might not match how the intended audience might respond to them. | |
| 11:24 | I am not saying that these 6 kids are representative, | |
| 11:24 | but I do think their experience is worth noting. | |
| 11:25 | erikos | gmanb5: that is why we try to get feedback with these tests we do |
| 11:25 | gmanb5 | erikos: of course |
| 11:26 | christianmarcsch | (back now) |
| 11:26 | erikos | gmanb5: though, we need to take it with a grain of salt, too |
| 11:26 | gmanb5 | erikos: of course |
| 11:26 | erikos | gmanb5: as there is a difference between long term users, first time users etc |
| 11:26 | gmanb5: but sure, I am happy we have set up a good start! :) | |
| 11:26 | gmanb5 | erikos: well, these guys have about 6 months experience, and are pretty sophisticated |
| 11:27 | christianmarcsch | i don't think the first-time user should be the focus here |
| 11:27 | gmanb5 | erikos: and, they LOVE the XOs and Sugar and they are both powerful tools for the students. |
| 11:27 | erikos | gmanb5: we should evaluate the toolbars in another test, maybe |
| 11:27 | christianmarcsch | since we are dealing with a classroom environment... |
| 11:27 | erikos | gmanb5: of course, happy to do that, too |
| 11:28 | should we try to sum up the home view survey? | |
| 11:28 | christianmarcsch | erikos: that would be great |
| 11:28 | erikos | listens to christianmarcsch then |
| 11:29 | has a summary, too (if asked :) | |
| 11:29 | gmanb5 | christianmarcsch: I need to leave the meeting |
| 11:29 | christianmarcsch | thanks gerald |
| 11:29 | gmanb5 | Sure. Thanks for having me. |
| 11:29 | erikos | thank gmanb5 ! |
| 11:29 | christianmarcsch | appreciate your help with this! |
| 11:29 | silbe | erikos: post it and we'll see whether we agree ;) |
| 11:29 | garycmartin | gmanb5: thanks! |
| 11:29 | gmanb5 | Any time! |
| 11:29 | silbe | gmanb5: thanks for testing and participating in the meeting! |
| 11:29 | erikos | silbe: I first want to hear christianmarcsch ;p |
| 11:29 | gmanb5 | So long, all. Thanks for all the great work! |
| 11:29 | christianmarcsch | so... |
| 11:30 | one interesting thing i heard gerald say is that kids want the choice of being able to either start new, or resume | |
| 11:30 | and i take it he meant from home directly | |
| 11:30 | erikos | understood it that way, too |
| 11:30 | christianmarcsch | in other words, kids may be clicking on an icon with both expectations-- |
| 11:30 | that it would either start a new instance, or resume an old one | |
| 11:31 | erikos, does that match your findings as well? | |
| 11:31 | erikos | christianmarcsch: yes, I think having the resume option in home is great |
| 11:32 | christianmarcsch | well, i'm talking even more abstract about the general expectation that exists when selecting an activity |
| 11:32 | silbe | christianmarcsch: not sure that would actually be their expectations or if it's just more convenient (because it's pre-filtered by activity). Otherwise agreed. |
| 11:32 | christianmarcsch | one other thing we have seen is that the hover menus are advanced |
| 11:32 | erikos | christianmarcsch: most of the kids click on the activity because they want to work in that activity |
| 11:32 | christianmarcsch | and that kids in the beginning at least don't discover them |
| 11:33 | erikos | christianmarcsch: they do not make a plan before, if resume or start new |
| 11:33 | christianmarcsch | erikos: exactly |
| 11:33 | erikos: so when do they realize that they want to resume an old activity? | |
| 11:33 | erikos: before, or after selecting the activity? | |
| 11:33 | silbe | erikos: ok, that would argue towards expectations rather than just being more convenient... |
| 11:33 | erikos | ChanServ: after, I would say |
| 11:33 | christianmarcsch: ^^ | |
| 11:34 | christianmarcsch | let's not think about convenience just yet |
| 11:34 | i think it's more important to understand the mental model | |
| 11:34 | silbe | christianmarcsch: that's exactly what I'm trying to do |
| 11:34 | christianmarcsch | silbe: right, i know. just don't want to get caught up in usability just yet |
| 11:34 | erikos | christianmarcsch: so: select activity, then: select either resume or start new |
| 11:35 | silbe | christianmarcsch: and it makes it differences whether they use the option because they expect it to work that way, or just because it's more convenient than anything we currently offer |
| 11:35 | christianmarcsch | ok |
| 11:35 | silbe: you're right | |
| 11:35 | so, i think what simon just pointed out is the critical point here | |
| 11:36 | that the decision to resume or start a new instance comes after the desire to generally work in an activity | |
| 11:36 | silbe | christianmarcsch: yep, I think that too. |
| 11:36 | christianmarcsch | that may have been mstone's point in an earlier meeting |
| 11:36 | but in any case, | |
| 11:37 | silbe | it argues for making both options equal "partners" in the UI |
| 11:37 | christianmarcsch | if we agree on the premise, then the question becomes how to solve for it in the UI |
| 11:37 | silbe: that's right | |
| 11:37 | erikos | hurray! |
| 11:37 | I think we are on the right track | |
| 11:37 | christianmarcsch | i think so too |
| 11:38 | so, | |
| 11:38 | erikos | christianmarcsch: garycmartin said a full screen window after you click on the activity |
| 11:38 | christianmarcsch | i feel like this is a step forward, and that we should summarize these findings, before jumping into solutions |
| 11:38 | also-- | |
| 11:38 | erikos | christianmarcsch: where you can select |
| 11:38 | christianmarcsch: you are right | |
| 11:38 | christianmarcsch | i think eben should be here as well when we are brainstorming how to handle the situation |
| 11:39 | so my suggestion would be: | |
| 11:39 | let's formalize this, and reconvene next saturday with the design team | |
| 11:39 | and figure out a solution | |
| 11:39 | erikos | christianmarcsch: +1 |
| 11:39 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: +1 |
| 11:40 | silbe | christianmarcsch: +1 |
| 11:40 | christianmarcsch | i'm happy to write up a summary, since i started the test-thread |
| 11:40 | erikos | christianmarcsch: awesome! |
| 11:40 | christianmarcsch | feeling like this was a very productive thing to do |
| 11:40 | silbe | christianmarcsch: that would be great |
| 11:40 | erikos | absolutely, I am very very happy! |
| 11:41 | christianmarcsch | excellent! |
| 11:41 | garycmartin | erikos: I take it this is for 0.90 now? |
| 11:41 | christianmarcsch | i feel like this helped us get to a new place with the design |
| 11:41 | erikos | and next week again 15:30? |
| 11:41 | garycmartin: of course | |
| 11:42 | christianmarcsch | yes, let's do next saturday at 10:30 EST/15:30 UST |
| 11:42 | erikos | yup |
| 11:42 | silbe | garycmartin: yep - that also means we have enough time to work on the details, which is quite important. |
| 11:42 | erikos | ok, thanks everyone for joining in! |
| 11:42 | garycmartin | silbe: Yea, for sure! |
| 11:42 | christianmarcsch | thanks |
| 11:42 | silbe | christianmarcsch: 15:30 UTC you mean? |
| 11:42 | christianmarcsch | sorry, that's what i mean ;) |
| 11:42 | silbe | ok, looking forward to it :) |
| 11:42 | christianmarcsch | great-- see you next week! |
| 11:42 | erikos | #ACTION: christianmarcsch to write a summary with the findings and send it to sugar-devel |
| 11:43 | #endmeeting |