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#sugar-meeting, 2010-03-07

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Time Nick Message
10:48 erikos #TOPIC Design Meeting Home View
10:48 #LINK http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/022612.html
10:48 the link above has the written summary of the evaluation
10:48 christianmarcsch thanks, that's helpful
10:49 i'll take a second to read over it
10:49 garycmartin erikos: do you know Geralds IRC name? I think the emails talked about meeting in #sugar so he may be waiting there?
10:50 erikos garycmartin: no, i don't know his nick :/
10:50 let me know when you finished reading the text
10:50 christianmarcsch done1
10:50 !
10:50 so simon--you tested the revised build, correct?
10:50 with start new as the default?
10:50 erikos christianmarcsch: I did test both builds
10:51 christianmarcsch erikos: which one did you start with?
10:51 erikos christianmarcsch: what I did was: one kid the old build
10:51 christianmarcsch: the another one the new build
10:51 christianmarcsch erikos: excellent
10:51 erikos christianmarcsch: I did test one build per hid
10:51 that is how I read your test description
10:51 christianmarcsch erikos: and how large was your class?
10:52 erikos: yes ;)
10:52 erikos christianmarcsch: well, I only managed to do 3 kids :/
10:52 christianmarcsch erikos: oh
10:52 erikos christianmarcsch: as it took me 10 minutes per kid
10:52 to do the test
10:52 christianmarcsch erikos: so you tested one build twice, the other one time
10:53 erikos: 10 mins is longer than i initially though it would take, but understandable that it might take more time
10:53 erikos christianmarcsch: yup, but I think the outcome would not have changed significantly
10:53 walterbender waves... didn't realize it was so late...
10:53 christianmarcsch hi walterbender
10:53 erikos christianmarcsch: my class is a bit special in the sense, that I explained them many times already how to start new and resume activities
10:54 christianmarcsch erikos: right, saw that in the overview
10:54 erikos christianmarcsch: that is why it would have been good to hear from Gerald
10:54 christianmarcsch erikos: it will be interesting to contrast with gerald's findings
10:54 erikos hey walterbender
10:55 christianmarcsch: what I am quite certain about right now is: right click is not an option we can rely on
10:55 christianmarcsch erikos: anyway, how did you conclude that start new was the preferred default behavior?
10:55 walterbender It seems we are still convolving two different issues in the tests/discussion: start/resume vs using the journal for annotation, reflection (write anytime, easier journal access, etc.)
10:55 erikos christianmarcsch: because the option is "hidden"
10:56 christianmarcsch: the kids wait for the palette to appear, they don't use right click
10:56 christianmarcsch: and this is the only place they can start something new
10:56 walterbender erikos: did you try setting the timeout for the hover menu to 0?
10:56 christianmarcsch walterbender: yes, sounds like we may be conflating a few things...
10:57 walterbender secondary menu, I mean
10:57 erikos walterbender: no, I did not do that
10:57 christianmarcsch walterbender: the primary purpose of the test was to help us know what to do with start new vs. resume
10:58 erikos: can you talk about how kids responded to the new build?
10:58 walterbender christianmarcsch: yes... erikos's test... but I think Gerald had other concerns... but I will let him speak for himself.
10:58 garycmartin erikos: from Geralds email is seems you found opposing results.
10:59 erikos garycmartin: gerald's email is a mixed, and b I was uncertain how to fullt interpret it ;p
10:59 christianmarcsch i wonder if we should resume this when gerald is online
10:59 garycmartin looks for his magic 8 ball
10:59 christianmarcsch it would be good to hear both test results...
10:59 erikos christianmarcsch: that would work for me
11:00 garycmartin christianmarcsch: +1
11:00 erikos christianmarcsch: I think the kids can adopt to both versions
11:00 christianmarcsch erikos: that may be true, but we need to have enough confidence in one vs. the other to be able to set a default
11:00 i can try for later this afternoon
11:00 erikos is away later
11:01 christianmarcsch: yeah, its is hard
11:01 christianmarcsch: for example, the kids get quite well what the color is for
11:01 christianmarcsch erikos: that's one thing i wanted to evaluate. good to hear that they understand the metaphor
11:02 erikos christianmarcsch: that indicator works very well
11:02 christianmarcsch erikos: they realize that color is to "resume"
11:02 erikos christianmarcsch: they call it: we have done some work in that activity already
11:02 christianmarcsch: or "we have used it already"
11:03 christianmarcsch erikos: it becomes a question of which behavior is more natural, and which more frequently needed (resume/start new)
11:03 erikos: that makes sense--glad the color communicates
11:04 erikos christianmarcsch: to me the main issue is: they just click on th eicon
11:04 christianmarcsch: most of them do not wait for the palette to appear
11:04 christianmarcsch erikos: even though they may want to start a new activity?
11:04 erikos christianmarcsch: yes, they forget about it
11:04 christianmarcsch: and then they have to close it again
11:04 christianmarcsch erikos: and then they want to start new inside the activity?
11:04 erikos christianmarcsch: or are confused hat happened
11:04 christianmarcsch erikos: i see
11:05 erikos: another solution could be to "start new" from within the activity
11:05 erikos christianmarcsch: they do not always think that stratigically
11:05 christianmarcsch erikos: and so kids know to go to the journal to resume
11:05 erikos christianmarcsch: or to display the palette when you click on the icon
11:05 christianmarcsch: yes that works very well
11:06 christianmarcsch: so, the journal is not alwasy attractive for resuming
11:06 christianmarcsch erikos: we used to have an issue that kids didn't know to resume from the journal, and therefor we put that functionality in home
11:06 erikos: why is that?
11:06 erikos christianmarcsch: as in the home view, it is filtered by activity type
11:07 christianmarcsch: (i just mean, it depends what you want to resume)
11:07 garycmartin christianmarcsch: start activity -> 'templates' (new template + resumable objects) -> activity interface.
11:07 erikos christianmarcsch: I think both resume options makes sense
11:07 christianmarcsch is that gerald?
11:07 erikos christianmarcsch: and it is good to have them
11:07 garycmartin christianmarcsch: it's how the iPhone iPad does it (very successfully if you ask me).
11:07 gmanb5 yes. sorry for being late
11:08 erikos hey gmanb5 ! :)
11:08 christianmarcsch ah, great!
11:08 geralde, simon just gave us an update on his test
11:08 silbe gmanb5: welcome :)
11:08 christianmarcsch gerald: could you let us know how your test went?
11:08 gmanb5 Sure.
11:08 I worked with about a half dozen students
11:08 erikos garycmartin: can you explain more on the iphone interface?
11:09 gmanb5 using the build that Simon put together
11:09 Just for the record, we were running it on Dell Latitude 2100 Netbooks
11:09 The students loved the New versus Resume feature
11:10 They talked about how not good it is (their words) to have to find stuff in the Journal
11:10 erikos gmanb5: which build did you use before?
11:10 gmanb5 especially if you forget to rename it
11:10 erikos gmanb5: or, which Sugar version
11:10 christianmarcsch gmanb5: so you are saying they preferred resume over start new in home?
11:10 gmanb5 Prior to the test, we have been using Sugar .82 on the XO laptops
11:10 christianmarcsch gmanb5: in other words the original build?
11:11 gmanb5 Yes
11:11 christianmarcsch gmanb5: can you explain why ?
11:11 gmanb5 They liked the functionality exactly how it was in this build
11:11 garycmartin erikos: 'home' is just for starting apps, most don't have much document state, but those that are generally show a screen of templates and old documents. So it's two taps, one for the 'activity' then one for either 'new' or and old resume.
11:11 erikos christianmarcsch: in 0.82 there was no functionality to resume from home
11:11 gmanb5 That when they choose and activity, they have a choice to start something new OR resume earlier work.
11:11 erikos christianmarcsch: at all, I mean
11:11 gmanb5 That set up totally made sense to them.
11:12 Christian, in terms of why.
11:12 I think it is because it matched how they are actually thinking.
11:12 I start an app/activity
11:12 and the first question is what do I want to do?
11:12 silbe garycmartin: that's quite similar to what mstone proposed, except for UI differences naturally
11:12 christianmarcsch gmanb5: that's very interesting
11:12 gmanb5 In this build, the choice is right there in the Home View
11:13 christianmarcsch gmanb5: how so?
11:13 gmanb5: you mean the default is start new, and resume is in the menu?
11:13 gmanb5 The default didn't matter to them. The choice mattered.
11:13 erikos garycmartin: right, so that would be a bit like just showing the activity palette when you click on the icon, then you select
11:14 christianmarcsch gmanb5: yes, but help me understand what we are evaluating. i'm not familiar with 0.82
11:14 gmanb5 In .82, you have a Home View, just like in this build.
11:14 When you click on an icon, you always and only get to start a new activity.
11:14 If you want to resume, you must go to the Journal
11:14 christianmarcsch gmanb5: i see
11:14 gmanb5 or open from the activity once it's running.
11:14 garycmartin erikos: after the click on an activity, you'd switch to a full screen template selector (before the pulsing icon starts).
11:15 christianmarcsch gmanb5: and you can resume from the hover palette?
11:15 erikos garycmartin: or that, but two tabs would be fine with me too
11:15 christianmarcsch: not in 0.82
11:15 gmanb5 Yes. In the hover pallette, you are presented with recently done work (by titles) to pick.
11:16 silbe gmanb5: and your students were using 0.82 exclusively before? Their first exposure to being able to resume from the home screen was during the test?
11:16 christianmarcsch gmanb5: ok. and did kids find the palette in your tests?
11:16 gmanb5 Silbe: this was their first exposure, yes.
11:16 christianmarsch: I had to show them the pallette
11:16 but once they got it, they loved it.
11:16 erikos hah! :)
11:17 christianmarcsch regarding the palette, i think we can assume it is slightly more "advanced" functionality
11:17 gmanb5 Hah!? I don't understand
11:17 erikos is more and more convinced that what gary proposes is the right thing to do
11:17 gmanb5: I think the issue is - that the palette is just not obvious in the first place
11:17 gmanb5 Well, I think you have to consider that there is a differentiated user experience
11:17 with my 5th graders at least
11:17 erikos gmanb5: and that many kids just click, without thinking
11:18 gmanb5 the applications/activities themselves are pretty easy to use
11:18 silbe so I guess one result from the tests is that being able to resume from the home screen is more convenient, most likely because it's pre-"filtered" by activity.
11:18 gmanb5 but the operating system requires some instruction/prior exposure to be really useful
11:18 erikos silbe: I would not say more convinient, just another good way to do so
11:18 gmanb5 And, I'm not sure that this is a bad thing.
11:19 silbe erikos: gmanb5 wrot "[...] how not good it is (their words) to have to find stuff in the Journal"
11:19 erikos: I interpret that as more convenient. FWIW it matches my own experience using Sugar quite well.
11:19 erikos silbe: sure, I read that, so I think resuming from the Journal has some merit, too
11:20 silbe erikos: oh, I see what you mean. Yes, resume from Journal is important, too - just at different times.
11:20 christianmarcsch this all seems to point towards having start new as the default when clicking an activity in home, but to leave resume in the hover palette
11:20 though i also wonder if there is another option here
11:20 as gerald says, the choice is what matters
11:21 gmanb5 One more thing, if  I may
11:21 silbe gmanb5: go ahead
11:21 gmanb5 The students were a bit confused by (what are to them) the new Sugar toolbars.
11:21 .82 doesn't have them, and they were not immediately obvious.
11:21 christianmarcsch gmanb5: is that because they were familiar with the old toolbars?
11:22 gmanb5 I am sure they would have gotten them worked out with some more time,
11:22 but not in this limited test.
11:22 silbe gmanb5: do you think it's merely a matter of being used to the old interface, or is there someone about the new ones that makes them worse?
11:22 gmanb5 Both, I think.
11:22 Certainly, a part of it is experience.
11:23 christianmarcsch gmanb5: were you able to identify what about the new toolbars was confusing?
11:23 garycmartin gmanb5: is lack of text names an issue?
11:23 gmanb5 But, part of it was that in the old toolbars, everything is really right there.
11:23 christianmarcsch (back in 2 mins)
11:23 gmanb5 garycmartin: I am sure that is true, too.
11:24 I guess my point is that adult users, like ourselves, especially developers are going to seek a particularly elegant solution
11:24 like the new toolbars.
11:24 which might not match how the intended audience might respond to them.
11:24 I am not saying that these 6 kids are representative,
11:24 but I do think their experience is worth noting.
11:25 erikos gmanb5: that is why we try to get feedback with these tests we do
11:25 gmanb5 erikos: of course
11:26 christianmarcsch (back now)
11:26 erikos gmanb5: though, we need to take it with a grain of salt, too
11:26 gmanb5 erikos: of course
11:26 erikos gmanb5: as there is a difference between long term users, first time users etc
11:26 gmanb5: but sure, I am happy we have set up a good start! :)
11:26 gmanb5 erikos: well, these guys have about 6 months experience, and are pretty sophisticated
11:27 christianmarcsch i don't think the first-time user should be the focus here
11:27 gmanb5 erikos: and, they LOVE the XOs and Sugar and they are both powerful tools for the students.
11:27 erikos gmanb5: we should evaluate the toolbars in another test, maybe
11:27 christianmarcsch since we are dealing with a classroom environment...
11:27 erikos gmanb5: of course, happy to do that, too
11:28 should we try to sum up the home view survey?
11:28 christianmarcsch erikos: that would be great
11:28 erikos listens to christianmarcsch then
11:29 has a summary, too (if asked :)
11:29 gmanb5 christianmarcsch: I need to leave the meeting
11:29 christianmarcsch thanks gerald
11:29 gmanb5 Sure. Thanks for having me.
11:29 erikos thank gmanb5 !
11:29 christianmarcsch appreciate your help with this!
11:29 silbe erikos: post it and we'll see whether we agree ;)
11:29 garycmartin gmanb5: thanks!
11:29 gmanb5 Any time!
11:29 silbe gmanb5: thanks for testing and participating in the meeting!
11:29 erikos silbe: I first want to hear christianmarcsch ;p
11:29 gmanb5 So long, all. Thanks for all the great work!
11:29 christianmarcsch so...
11:30 one interesting thing i heard gerald say is that kids want the choice of being able to either start new, or resume
11:30 and i take it he meant from home directly
11:30 erikos understood it that way, too
11:30 christianmarcsch in other words, kids may be clicking on an icon with both expectations--
11:30 that it would either start a new instance, or resume an old one
11:31 erikos, does that match your findings as well?
11:31 erikos christianmarcsch: yes, I think having the resume option in home is great
11:32 christianmarcsch well, i'm talking even more abstract about the general expectation that exists when selecting an activity
11:32 silbe christianmarcsch: not sure that would actually be their expectations or if it's just more convenient (because it's pre-filtered by activity). Otherwise agreed.
11:32 christianmarcsch one other thing we have seen is that the hover menus are advanced
11:32 erikos christianmarcsch: most of the kids click on the activity because they want to work in that activity
11:32 christianmarcsch and that kids in the beginning at least don't discover them
11:33 erikos christianmarcsch: they do not make a plan before, if resume or start new
11:33 christianmarcsch erikos: exactly
11:33 erikos: so when do they realize that they want to resume an old activity?
11:33 erikos: before, or after selecting the activity?
11:33 silbe erikos: ok, that would argue towards expectations rather than just being more convenient...
11:33 erikos ChanServ: after, I would say
11:33 christianmarcsch: ^^
11:34 christianmarcsch let's not think about convenience just yet
11:34 i think it's more important to understand the mental model
11:34 silbe christianmarcsch: that's exactly what I'm trying to do
11:34 christianmarcsch silbe: right, i know. just don't want to get caught up in usability just yet
11:34 erikos christianmarcsch: so: select activity, then: select either resume or start new
11:35 silbe christianmarcsch: and it makes it differences whether they use the option because they expect it to work that way, or just because it's more convenient than anything we currently offer
11:35 christianmarcsch ok
11:35 silbe: you're right
11:35 so, i think what simon just pointed out is the critical point here
11:36 that the decision to resume or start a new instance comes after the desire to generally work in an activity
11:36 silbe christianmarcsch: yep, I think that too.
11:36 christianmarcsch that may have been mstone's point in an earlier meeting
11:36 but in any case,
11:37 silbe it argues for making both options equal "partners" in the UI
11:37 christianmarcsch if we agree on the premise, then the question becomes how to solve for it in the UI
11:37 silbe: that's right
11:37 erikos hurray!
11:37 I think we are on the right track
11:37 christianmarcsch i think so too
11:38 so,
11:38 erikos christianmarcsch: garycmartin said a full screen window after you click on the activity
11:38 christianmarcsch i feel like this is a step forward, and that we should summarize these findings, before jumping into solutions
11:38 also--
11:38 erikos christianmarcsch: where you can select
11:38 christianmarcsch: you are right
11:38 christianmarcsch i think eben should be here as well when we are brainstorming how to handle the situation
11:39 so my suggestion would be:
11:39 let's formalize this, and reconvene next saturday with the design team
11:39 and figure out a solution
11:39 erikos christianmarcsch: +1
11:39 garycmartin christianmarcsch: +1
11:40 silbe christianmarcsch: +1
11:40 christianmarcsch i'm happy to write up a summary, since i started the test-thread
11:40 erikos christianmarcsch: awesome!
11:40 christianmarcsch feeling like this was a very productive thing to do
11:40 silbe christianmarcsch: that would be great
11:40 erikos absolutely, I am very very happy!
11:41 christianmarcsch excellent!
11:41 garycmartin erikos: I take it this is for 0.90 now?
11:41 christianmarcsch i feel like this helped us get to a new place with the design
11:41 erikos and next week again 15:30?
11:41 garycmartin: of course
11:42 christianmarcsch yes, let's do next saturday at 10:30 EST/15:30 UST
11:42 erikos yup
11:42 silbe garycmartin: yep - that also means we have enough time to work on the details, which is quite important.
11:42 erikos ok, thanks everyone for joining in!
11:42 garycmartin silbe: Yea, for sure!
11:42 christianmarcsch thanks
11:42 silbe christianmarcsch: 15:30 UTC you mean?
11:42 christianmarcsch sorry, that's what i mean ;)
11:42 silbe ok, looking forward to it :)
11:42 christianmarcsch great-- see you next week!
11:42 erikos #ACTION: christianmarcsch to write a summary with the findings and send it to sugar-devel
11:43 #endmeeting

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