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#sugar-meeting, 2010-02-22

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
09:03 tomeu who is with us today?
09:03 erikos is here
09:03 silbe is half-there (working on thesis)
09:03 erikos sssshh tome the topic...
09:03 <- 'u'
09:03 Daniel_C im here, hi!!
09:04 tomeu erikos is with us, but I don't understand what he says, as usual ;)
09:04 erikos tomeu: you need to tell the bot the topic
09:04 tomeu erikos: you mean with #topic?
09:04 erikos tomeu: yup
09:04 tomeu well, still saying hi
09:04 but let's move on
09:05 agenda:
09:05    *  0.88 Release: bug database cleanup, fix bugs, etc
09:05    * Activity Team: Move to new toolbar
09:05 #topic 0.88 Release
09:06 as you know, we have already 3 freezes
09:06 erikos tomeu: I have another point, if I may
09:06 tomeu sure
09:06 feature, API and UI
09:06 erikos tomeu: introduction of new members
09:06 tomeu with string freeze coming on march
09:07 erikos: hmm, maybe we start with that?
09:07 erikos tomeu: likes that ;p
09:07 tch hello all~
09:07 tomeu erikos: and you mean members of the development team?
09:07 hi tch
09:07 erikos tomeu: well, I do not know tch really
09:07 tomeu: for example
09:08 tomeu: and as he have done a Feature for 0.88, it is good I know him for bug fixing ;p
09:08 tch erikos: ;)
09:08 tomeu erikos: ok, but not only members of the devleopment team can submit patches
09:08 so we should ask them if they want to become official members of the development team
09:09 erikos tomeu: yeah, members was maybe the worng word
09:09 tomeu: let's call it: attendees of the meeting may say in a few words who they are
09:09 walterbender hi
09:09 just got into Cambridge...
09:10 tomeu (of course, any contributors are welcomed as members of the development team)
09:10 erikos tomeu: so we get to know a bit better each others
09:10 walterbender my office is full of noisy servers from Wikipedia :)
09:10 tomeu right now, our team is a bit... sparse
09:10 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ent_Team/Contacts
09:10 silbe walterbender: blame dogi for that (and hi) ;)
09:10 erikos hehe
09:10 tomeu so I propose that whoever adds him/herself to that page
09:11 and anybody who feels the need, introduces him/herself
09:11 now
09:11 and then we move to the agenda
09:11 erikos tomeu: sorry, I hope I did not ruin the start :/
09:12 tch: want to present yourself to us in a few words?
09:13 took the wrong person ;D
09:13 tch sure, hmm,
09:13 I am Martin Abente, I work on Paraguay Educa as Lead Programmer :)
09:14 erikos tch: ahhh, I always mixed you up with aa
09:14 tch: now I see a bit better
09:14 tch: thanks
09:14 Daniel_C: you want to go next?
09:14 tch Martin -> Martincho -> Tincho -> tch
09:14 tomeu (that last bit is useful)
09:15 erikos is Simon from Germany, sugar developer and runs the Sugar Pilot in Berlin (Germany)
09:15 tomeu or aa, if Daniel_C has gone to fill his mate
09:15 erikos and is the Sugar release manager
09:16 Daniel_C I am Daniel Castelo, i work on Plan Ceibal (Uruguay). AA (Andres Ambros) is a member of Ceibal Jam.
09:16 erikos Daniel_C: tch and both of you did work on the 3G feature (just to add this)
09:17 tomeu ok, so if someone else feels the need to introduce themselves, please do so briefly during the meeting
09:17 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]m/Release/Roadmap
09:17 so, we are after several freezes, so we are more careful now about what code goes into git
09:17 silbe is Sascha from Germany, hacking on all parts of Sugar, including adding version support to sugar-datastore and currently writing a thesis (Diplomarbeit) about the latter.
09:18 (and too slow as always)
09:18 tomeu now we are supposed to focus on polishing the features that landed during this release cycle, and also fixing known bugs introduced in other past releases
09:18 erikos silbe: thanks for your introduction!
09:18 tomeu: yes, this is right
09:19 tomeu an important part of fixing bugs, is knowing what bugs need to be fixed
09:19 and having enough information to be able to fix them, etc
09:19 walterbender erikos just fixed one this morning :)
09:19 erikos earned a karma point!
09:19 tomeu all info about bugs is kept in our bugtracker, as you know: bugs.sugarlabs.org
09:19 silbe erikos: you already got enough of them :)
09:20 tomeu people who encounter bugs put information about them in the tracker, but that's often not enough
09:20 some work needs to happen so that the bug tracker contains good enough information so that every release is as bug-free as possible
09:20 erikos tomeu: yes, and the bug tracker needs clean up from time to time
09:21 tomeu that work is what we call bug triaging
09:21 silbe someone (not me currently, sorry) should do a run through the old ones - i have the impression that at least the no-reconnect-after-jabber-server-changed isn't fixed even though it was an easy one
09:21 erikos ideally we would go through the bugs that have old milestones first
09:21 0.86 or 0.84
09:21 tomeu silbe: yes, an important work to do is to make sure that bugs are correctly categorized by severity and complexity
09:22 so bugs don't fall through the cracks
09:22 erikos tomeu: the main question is, how do we organize that work
09:22 tomeu: an async effort, or do we meet to triage bugs?
09:22 or both
09:23 tomeu erikos: I think it depends largely on how many resources we have to do it
09:23 erikos tomeu: sounds about right
09:23 tomeu: in the thread you posted only walter and I replied as far as I know
09:23 tomeu Daniel_C, tch: you work on sugar as your main jobs, your employers want you to put time into bug fixing during the 0.88 cycle?
09:23 erikos tomeu: maybe we can ask the people here today, if they want to help
09:23 tomeu or do they expect others to do that?
09:24 no need to reply now if you don't have a boss handy ;)
09:24 but is important in order to organize the work
09:25 erikos unmadindu: what about you?
09:25 tch tomeu: I do all programming tasks inside Paraguay Educa, i swap development contexts all the time
09:25 tomeu aa: would be great if ceibal jam would be interested in bugfixing, that could help with the problems that gabriel mentioned about projects starting but not being continued
09:25 erikos unmadindu: how is your availability for that?
09:26 tch tomeu: the second question depends on rgs_
09:26 tomeu tch: ok, would be great if we could knew that we have tch one day per week, or something like that
09:27 tch: ok, nothing to be discussed now, we just need to keep in mind that we'll execute the job very differently if we are only erikos, walterbender and me fixing bugs, or if other people get involved as well
09:27 we can discuss it further on the ml or in the next meeting
09:27 tch tomeu: i understand :)
09:28 tomeu so we need to triage incoming bugs (people are already testing 0.87 on soas) and also retriage the older ones
09:28 Daniel_C I dont know. I should ask. Sure that my employers want that I work in a feature that Uruguay needs. But maybe I could work fixing bugs too
09:29 tomeu Daniel_C: something worth taking into account, is that I don't think that a person can be a good feature-writer before being a good bug-fixer
09:29 walterbender Daniel_C: a feature that Uruguay needs is a bug-free build :)
09:29 rgs_ tomeu: without much more thinking, we can perfectly allocate a fix number of tch's hour weekly. Sadly, I can't do the same since my soul has already been sold to other tasks (basically, making sure the deployment keeps moving smoothly). Just let me know an a private mail what type of formal agreement you need from us (I am not following the mailing list now).
09:29 tomeu Daniel_C: many of the aspects that amake a feature patch good, are only understood when you have had to debug a lot
09:29 Daniel_C tomeu: i am agree
09:30 rgs_ walterbender: a bug-free build is hard to achieve, but thanks for Bernie we are almost there :)
09:30 tomeu rgs_: not sure if we need anything formal, just to have an idea
09:31 Daniel_C: another thing to take into account, is that once we have a fix for an old bug in 0.88, we can backport it quite easily to 0.84
09:31 so uruguay will benefit before they get to use 0.88
09:32 ok, about sync or async bug triaging, what people think?
09:33 what we have done in the past is to allocate blocks of 100 bugs
09:33 to each person involved
09:33 Daniel_C tomeu: Im agree. Yes, as I said, maybe i could work fixing bugs and working in a new (and small) feature.
09:34 erikos tomeu: I think, at the beginning having sessions does help a lot
09:34 tomeu each person goes through the bugs, tries to understand them, and updates fields such as priority, needinfo, etc
09:34 erikos tomeu: since you can answer questions to new-triagers
09:34 tomeu erikos: ok, I think async is more efficient, but as you say, sync is much better for welcoming newcomers
09:35 erikos tomeu: well in the meeting it can be async
09:35 tomeu: just that people are around
09:35 tomeu: and can directly comment if needed
09:35 tomeu ok
09:36 erikos after a short introduction to the general idea, that should work fine
09:37 tomeu so we are going to have a meeting soon in which we'll allocate some bugs to each attendant, will point to some triaging instructions, then each of us will go one by one, asking when in doubt
09:37 erikos: have a link to the triaging instructions?
09:37 erikos sounds good to me
09:37 tch there could be a weekly bug-hunting report or something.. ? as light sync method..
09:37 erikos http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/B[…]quad/Triage_Guide
09:37 tomeu tch: can you extend on that?
09:38 erikos tch: you mean a list of the fixed bugs with the one that earns the karma points?
09:39 tch tomeu: just saying it could be useful to know what other doing, mentioning briefly the findings etc.. not sure if there exists something like this already..
09:39 tomeu ah
09:40 well, what I do is reading all bugmail ;)
09:40 http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/bugs
09:40 but a summary would be great, even more if it is automated
09:40 we also need to automate a report about the review queue
09:41 erikos tomeu: marco had a script
09:41 tomeu erikos: for triaging? or the review queue?
09:41 erikos tomeu: I think I asked him already for it (review)
09:41 tomeu erikos: maybe we can find it in sunjammer
09:41 erikos tomeu: yup, it was in his home
09:42 tomeu: lets do after the meeting
09:42 tomeu ok
09:42 hi sdziallas, talking about bug triaging
09:42 erikos tomeu: you can use the action command to note it down for us
09:42 silbe tomeu: what kind of report are you thinking about?
09:43 we should talk about the review process at one of the next meetings, BTW.
09:43 sdziallas waves, hi all
09:43 erikos silbe: for the review, we just had a simple script (R?, r+, r-)
09:43 silbe and about early branch of 0.89 so we can finally get the PEP8 fixes into sugar :)
09:43 erikos: what did it do, exactly?
09:43 tomeu erikos: who is going to do what action?
09:44 silbe: may be easier to search the archives
09:44 it was sent to sugar-devel
09:44 erikos tomeu: assign me to look for the review script
09:44 tomeu #action erikos to search the missing review script
09:44 erikos tomeu: thanks ;p
09:45 tomeu: who does announce the bug triage meeting?
09:45 tomeu: and when should we do it?
09:45 tomeu was asking that ;)
09:45 silbe tomeu: got a link to it? can't find anything.
09:45 tomeu do we have a volunteer?
09:45 erikos tomeu: maybe we can state here quickly what times work best for people
09:45 tomeu: find a first time consensus
09:45 silbe I'm mostly wondering what the script does that a Trac report or query cannot do.
09:46 tomeu silbe: it ashames slow maintainers in front of all other people
09:46 erikos silbe: it is mostly another way of spreading the word
09:46 tomeu or rather, makes clearer where is a bottleneck that needs to be fixed
09:47 silbe so it sends the report output to sugar-devel?
09:47 erikos silbe: to me, it helped a lot in the past
09:47 silbe: even simpler
09:47 tomeu silbe: yup
09:47 erikos silbe: just what the state is of the tickets in review
09:48 silbe: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-July/006903.html
09:48 example here: ^^^
09:49 silbe ok, so basically a query result sent out via email. Thx!
09:49 erikos tomeu: ok, how do we move on with the triaging...
09:49 tomeu silbe: see here: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ugust/thread.html
09:49 ah, I'm late
09:49 erikos as always!
09:50 tomeu: we should start soon :/
09:50 tomeu so, any volunteer for organizing the triage meeting?
09:50 basically, setting a time, and announcing it, not so much
09:50 but it's a very important task in the community
09:51 erikos tomeu: maybe people are just shy ;p
09:51 walterbender steps forward...
09:52 erikos he is sooo brave!
09:52 tomeu walterbender: thanks, maybe next one will be organized by someone new
09:52 #action walterbender to call for a triage meeting in the next few days
09:52 is there any question about the triage process?
09:52 erikos walterbender: maybe we want to quickly see what times might work
09:53 walterbender: weekend vs working week for example
09:53 walterbender I am wide open this week...
09:53 tomeu may be good to skim quickly through http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/B[…]quad/Triage_Guide
09:53 silbe oh, sounds like I'll have a lot to catch up next month...
09:53 erikos walterbender: I am not sure what works best for attendees
09:53 walterbender maybe someone could volunteer to shadow me so that they'd be prepared to run the next meeting?
09:54 silbe (after you touched all of my open bugs I mean)
09:54 walterbender well, let's pick a time...
09:54 erikos walterbender: yes, if nobody steps up, you should make that clear in the announcement email
09:54 walterbender weekday or weekend?
09:55 tomeu for the employed people within us, maybe weekday?
09:55 http://www.timetomeet.info/new/
09:55 erikos tomeu: depends if you work on Sugar or not ;p
09:55 but I prefer weekday, too
09:56 though, it depends on the time if I am available or not
09:56 walterbender what time of day?
09:56 erikos walterbender: for me, the best day is mOnday
09:56 walterbender: this is my Sugar day
09:56 just put something on the table now
09:56 Daniel_C: tch what about you?
09:57 walterbender OK. Next Monday, 9AM EST? (14UTC)
09:57 erikos walterbender: would work for me
09:57 walterbender seems to work for this crowd at least...
09:57 and we can recruit Bernie...
09:57 Daniel_C I prefer weekday too
09:57 erikos Daniel_C: would that time 14:00 UTC work fine for you?
09:57 tomeu maybe we'll be able to recover some of the triagers from older releases
09:58 erikos tomeu: gary?
09:58 tomeu and fgrose
09:58 satellit
09:58 erikos tomeu: ohhh Frederick
09:58 tomeu hoboprimate
09:58 Daniel_C ok for me
09:58 erikos tomeu: does that time work for you?
09:58 tch weekday also 14utc is fine for me
09:58 erikos tch: Daniel_C great!
09:58 tomeu works for me
09:59 erikos and silbe will be around too, I am sure ;D
09:59 satellit tomeu: I can test but I am unable to fix bugs....:(
10:00 tomeu satellit: test and triaging is what we are lacking most
10:00 satellit ok
10:00 erikos tomeu: ok, I think having a date already, is a good start
10:00 walterbender OK. I'll announce it and try to get things organized a bit before hand...
10:00 silbe erikos: I might be around, but not do much for the next week (or maybe several weeks - need some timeout)
10:00 *will not
10:01 tomeu ok, can we move on?
10:01 5, 4,
10:01 1, 0
10:01 #topic Activity Team: Move to new toolbar
10:01 who proposed this topic?
10:02 silbe satellit: exact ways to reproduce a bug are more than half-way to actually fixing them
10:02 argl, too slow again...
10:02 tomeu silbe++
10:02 satellit : )
10:03 erikos silbe: all fine :)
10:03 walterbender: do you know who the activity leads?
10:03 walterbender: is there some movement going on at the moment?
10:03 alsroot: ?
10:04 tomeu wade was the leader, last time I heard
10:04 erikos tomeu: I brought this topic up, since in the field the reaction to the new toolbar was really good
10:04 walterbender I think it is still Wade
10:05 erikos and I think it is a "cheap" way of enhancing the Sugar platform
10:05 walterbender: maybe I can email him directly
10:05 walterbender I think a sprint to update the activities would be a really useful day... and it is something some newbies could be invlved in.
10:05 erikos walterbender: absolutely
10:06 walterbender: get involved actually
10:06 walterbender: ideally they would keep on contributing ;p
10:06 tomeu: do you assign me the action item to mail wade?
10:06 walterbender erikos: we almost have a simple cookie-cutter recipe to follow...
10:07 tomeu #action erikos to talk to the activity team about a sprint for updating to the new activity toolbar
10:07 erikos walterbender: yup, I think it is a good idea, would be good to be run by the activity team, to strengthen their community
10:07 tomeu: thanks
10:07 btw: another issue us TESTING
10:08 sdziallas drops by, nods, listens. ;)
10:08 tomeu is it an issue? we have satellit ;)
10:09 sdziallas grins, smiles
10:09 walterbender and we have the Wellington Team!!
10:09 and we have Tony Forster
10:10 and we have Gerald's kids
10:10 tomeu and a qa team being formed in .ph
10:10 erikos walterbender: yeah, but all those did not show up at the testing day for example
10:10 tomeu guesses we need a QA team lead
10:10 walterbender we just need to give them clear instructions...
10:10 erikos tomeu: ++
10:10 sdziallas tomeu: yup, that'd be it, indeed.
10:10 erikos walterbender: hmmm, I think someone needs to lead them :/
10:10 walterbender: and it should not be us
10:10 walterbender tomeu: I don't think the word about testing day got out much beyond devel
10:11 satellit I guess I need a standard procedure for testing. I have been using Vbox and VMworkstation and making USB's of Nightly Composes...
10:11 tomeu perhaps CanoeBerry has someone from .ph willing to do so? or from wellington?
10:11 erikos tomeu: adam asked me to get back to him
10:11 tomeu: have it on my list already
10:11 tomeu: the issue is, I am again the bottle neck
10:11 tomeu rgs_, Daniel_C: do we have people involved in testing in the deployments?
10:11 erikos and that is annoying :/
10:12 Daniel_C yes, but testing XO1 with F11 (sugar 0.84).
10:13 tomeu Daniel_C: ok, 0.84 bugs are also very welcome on our bugtracker, chances are the bug is still present
10:13 erikos seconds tomeu on that
10:13 tomeu Daniel_C: also, would someone from latu be willing to spend a few hours testing 0.88?
10:14 Daniel_C: if we fix things directly in 0.84, when you update later, you will find almost the same bugs
10:14 erikos Daniel_C: how does the Plan Ceibal plan looks like for the 3G Feature
10:14 rgs_ tomeu: bernie has been doing some testing on the field.. and he has been getting feedback. The real bugs have been filed and followed-up with the corresponding developers AFAIK
10:14 Daniel_C tomeu: ok. I will ask
10:14 erikos Daniel_C: what resources are assigned to make it happen
10:15 tomeu Daniel_C: great, thanks
10:15 erikos Daniel_C: you are coding at it
10:15 tomeu rgs_: with 0.84, right?
10:15 erikos Daniel_C: is there a plan for bug fixing, testing, and maybe back poring to 0.84 ?
10:15 is just curious
10:16 tomeu is also curious about backporting
10:16 guess that should be coordinate with OLPC?
10:17 walterbender probably Martin or Daniel
10:17 tomeu walterbender: but I guess that request should come from deployments, right?
10:18 Daniel_C erikos: some people are testing the olpc image, but we dont have a plan to migrate to this image.
10:18 erikos Daniel_C: ok, so for now, the 3G work is seen for an investment into the future
10:19 walterbender erikos: I need to leave in a minute or two... I'll ping you about how to run a triage meeting later.
10:19 erikos walterbender: ok sure
10:19 Daniel_C erikos: exactly. Now we will use a temporary solution using wvdial.
10:19 erikos walterbender: I will be around as well next week of course, and hep you stear the boat
10:19 tch we are very interesting in back porting it to 0.84 (3G support)
10:19 interested*
10:19 erikos Daniel_C: ahhh, ok interesting
10:19 tomeu tch: but haven't talked yet about it with olpc?
10:20 bernie tomeu: as soon as I'm done with this build, I'd like to create an experimental build based on sugar 0.86. has anyone been porting bugfixes forward to 0.86?
10:20 tomeu bernie: the policy that dsd followed when putting stuff into 0.84 was that it was already in master
10:20 erikos bernie: nope, not that I know of
10:20 tomeu (luckily)
10:20 tch tomeu: we have not, i was looking for dsd to talk about this
10:21 bernie tomeu: then 0.88, not 0.86
10:21 erikos tomeu: but not sure the stuff that landed after 0.86 is now in 0.86
10:21 bernie tomeu: dsd kind of disappeared from irc a few days ago
10:21 erikos bernie: yeah, I would go for 0.88
10:21 bernie: yeah, I looked for him too, already
10:21 tomeu erikos: sure, I was referring to the other way around
10:21 erikos tomeu: ok ;p
10:22 bernie erikos: ok. how stable would you consider 0.88 at this time? something you'd give to end users already?
10:22 erikos bernie: no, but you should help testing so we can ;p
10:22 bernie: and maybe recruit people in wherever you are at the moment
10:22 bernie: actually can you build up a testing team?
10:23 bernie: for 0.88!
10:23 is slippy today
10:23 tomeu bernie: and another team in wherever you are next week
10:23 erikos tomeu: I wonder if I should set testing days for 0.88
10:23 tomeu: according to the schedule
10:24 tomeu erikos: whatever we do about testing, we should make sure that the people that walter listed above are addressed
10:24 erikos tomeu: and start to announce them now
10:24 tomeu: of course
10:25 tomeu: but I guess I have to move
10:25 tomeu: first
10:25 bernie erikos: I'd like to build a testing team with kids. there some very smart kids here
10:25 erikos bernie: whatever works best for you
10:25 tomeu erikos: move?
10:25 bernie erikos: the problem is that it takes 2 hours to get to them and they've not yet learned to use irc
10:25 erikos: I've shown them how to, but they're not showing up
10:26 erikos: I've even told them that tomeu speaks spanish :-)
10:26 erikos tomeu: well, to take action
10:26 tomeu: a simple release announcement with: "please test" will not be enough I fear
10:26 tomeu: that is what I mean
10:27 tomeu: btw, maybe we should stop the meeting?
10:27 tomeu think so
10:27 any other stuff for the meeting?
10:27 silbe bernie: I'd rather have people try 0.88 than 0.86. while there are new bugs a lot of old ones got fixed.
10:27 personal opinion only, of course.
10:27 erikos is happy that tch silbe tomeu Daniel_C walterbender and even bernie did participate!
10:28 silbe: agreed
10:28 tomeu #stopmeeting
10:28 hmm
10:28 #endmeeting

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