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#sugar-meeting, 2010-02-10

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Time Nick Message
10:05 SeanDaly we may be joined by David Han who has been working with Caroline
10:06 RonF HOw is your trip goinbg, Sean?
10:07 SeanDaly RonF: I'm back (Brussels roundtrip was quick ;-)
10:07 anything to add/modify in agenda today?
10:08 JT4sugar How did Paris presentation go? Any developments come from meeting?
10:08 SeanDaly perhaps we should jump in
10:08 first off: Paris debrief
10:08 A great day
10:09 L'Atelier will publish online video of my prez as well as those of Lionel of OLPC France and bastien roundtable with educators
10:10 RonF :o)
10:10 SeanDaly all in French of course, but I will work on English version of my slides - they can be useful for other marketers
10:10 i made half a dozen very interesting contacts
10:11 coverage in French press, l'Atelier will summarize
10:11 I haven't even had time to look myself :-)
10:11 I led a workshop on e-books, difficult since no Internet access
10:11 but very interesting nonetheless
10:12 ok maybe I can brief you quickly on trademark status
10:12 RonF no citywide 3G? or no budget for it?
10:12 SeanDaly RonF: you mean in Paris?
10:13 RonF in Paris
10:13 SeanDaly We were in basement of a massive bank building
10:13 RonF ok
10:13 SeanDaly and they haven't wanted to have a wireless network connected to the Net for security reasons
10:13 RonF indeed
10:14 SeanDaly also 3G not yet operational on Sugar :-)
10:14 RonF you can get 3G/WiFi adapters
10:14 I forget the cute names for it
10:14 SeanDaly trademark: the Oversight Board working on trademark policy, I'm lead on that since it's a marketing thing
10:16 there were a couple of objections to SL vetting license requests, coming I think from confusion between copyright & trademark
10:16 my position is we need to vet license requests and accord icenses for defined period say 1 year
10:17 Chris Ball and a couple of others believe license granting should be automatic like the GPL
10:17 Walter has asked Chris & I to try to find consensus on a position
10:18 i hope this is possible, because if we can't deploy a policy which will build the brand there's no point in doing it
10:18 JT4sugar Automatic after online application filled out and electronically checked?
10:18 SeanDaly info on the discussion on the last several SLOBs meeting minutes (in wiki)
10:19 JT4sugar: yes, they seem to think a functioning e-mail is all the checking we should do
10:19 RonF what is value of licensing if you cannot vet granting it?
10:19 I guess you have right to sue for abriigation of terms anyway
10:19 SeanDaly RonF: I agree, trademark much more fragile than FLOSS copyright
10:20 remember the GPL accords rights through a license without click-through or application vetting
10:21 RonF yeah, but it is not very muscular without lawsuits foir abrogations
10:21 SeanDaly RonF: yes of course we can sue but our legal resources limited and litigation always wasteful & distracting, so my approach is to build licensing tough enough that nobody dares to sue
10:22 in other words, if license was vetted and breach of license easy to prove, the SFC (SL legal eagles) will have open-and-shut case
10:22 RonF I am confused: I thought you meant licensing the Suagr names to third parties
10:22 SeanDaly RonF: that's what I'm talking about all right
10:22 RonF ok
10:22 JT4sugar There is a difference between an email and a well drawn out electronic application which if designed well can capture  needed info and hold parties to core principles
10:22 SeanDaly I want a labelling program modelled on Dolby and Intel: 'sweetened with Sugar' or similar (we need to finalize phrase)
10:23 JT4sugar: my position exactly
10:23 I feel we should do what is possible to encourage ecosystem partners out of contact to enter into contact with SL
10:24 I need to find the time to reread and possibly rewrite policy draft
10:24 RonF what sort of licensing parties do you envision? integrators? hardware makers? others?
10:25 SeanDaly Yes, OEMs, other FLOSS projects, Sugar support for schools
10:25 one question is, should we ever charge for licenses
10:25 I feel we should charge small amounts per unit from OEMs
10:25 JT4sugar I think it can be automatic but application should be designed to give us a responsible amount of authority to hold parties to a hign level of quality when using SL name
10:25 SeanDaly could be a decent revenue stream
10:26 but I don't feel strongly about it
10:26 JT4sugar: the problem is, anyting automatic basically means no vetting beyond a functioning e-mail
10:26 RonF I don't know the economics of licensing as a professional
10:27 SeanDaly RonF: it made Ray Dolby very rich, and the "Intel inside" label policy considered one of the great "ingredient marketing" strategies of all time
10:27 RonF: I can send you a link to my post on that
10:28 RonF Dare I ask this? How string is your brand name now?
10:28 JT4sugar But if its automatic and they agree to certain precepts by checking yes then doesn't that give needed leverage to hold them to their word?
10:28 RonF i->o
10:28 SeanDaly RonF: not strong, to be sure
10:29 but no budget for market studies either
10:29 as far as I reckon,
10:29 the strongest brand in the OLPC-Sugar ecosystem is the OLPC laptop itself
10:29 RonF How much IP does SL have other than its brands (patents, trade secrets, etc)
10:29 It is open source, right?
10:30 SeanDaly over many conversations with educators, majority have heard of "$100 laptop for kids with crank"
10:30 over many conversations with educators, majority have heard of "$100 laptop for kids with crank"
10:30 RonF $!00 - that is good to hear
10:31 SeanDaly JT4sugar: u didn't miss I reposted
10:31 RonF: my point is the perception is off: it's $188 or so, and no crank
10:31 RonF anyway, that is why I wanted sugar caled OLPC juice
10:31 SeanDaly but the image has very high assisted recognition as far as I can tell
10:32 RonF you saw my page on Google hits for various terms &* equivocations, right
10:32 SeanDaly RonF: in FLOSS world "intellectual property" phrase often treated with suspicion
10:32 no patents or trade secrets
10:32 RonF <-- used to be corporate scientist <G>
10:32 SeanDaly software is GPL
10:33 brand has no policy (yet), why I want one :D
10:33 JT4sugar Maybe we should go for a compromise which could be for next 6 months we will vet by hand while we create a Partner friendly application that can foster a wider ecosystem and make working with SL streamlined
10:33 SeanDaly RonF: yes in fact we've done work on that
10:34 JT4sugar: I have my doubts it can ever be automatic, unless we have thousands of deployments and much beefier legal resources
10:34 JT4sugar: have you seen the wiki page with list of scenarios?
10:35 JT4sugar Yes, If not automatic what kind of turnaround time do you see if vetting by hand? Who will do? Each Friday at SLOB mtg?
10:36 SeanDaly http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]mark_case_studies
10:37 JT4sugar: I think based on typology: quick for FLOSS projects, deliberated for OEMs or large commercial partners
10:37 I can't think of a good reason for a licensee not to be in contact with us.. we need to know where our deployments are
10:37 JT4sugar Having read some of the threads it just seems that some feel it can be done automatically, but I understand you feel that is a little loose for a brand that is still in a fragile state
10:38 RonF What would vetting criteria be?
10:38 SeanDaly JT4sugar: brands are always fragile
10:38 JT4sugar Yes
10:38 SeanDaly just look at Toyota
10:38 RonF No articles in the National Inquirer? <G>
10:38 SeanDaly 30 years of reputation for reliability down the drain
10:38 greetings sdziallas
10:39 RonF hello sdziallas
10:39 sdziallas hi all!
10:39 SeanDaly FLOSS world has few examples of successful branding, we need to invent one
10:39 sdziallas (sorry for being late, school lasted long today)
10:40 SeanDaly easy to create policy that fails, but hard to create one which succeeds
10:41 ok can we talk about OLPC-A a bit?
10:41 RonF what is that?
10:41 SeanDaly As I said on the list i am in contact with Rodrigo, head of the OLPC Association in Miami
10:41 OLPC recently split into 2 parts
10:41 RonF oh!
10:42 SeanDaly OLPC Foundation is N. Negroponte, based in Boston, does XO development / think tank / fundraising
10:42 OLPC Association based in Miami does sales & service for deployments, particularly large Latin America sales
10:42 JT4sugar What are their key marketing goals, needs per Rodrigo
10:43 SeanDaly UY, PE
10:43 and now AR
10:43 JT4sugar: i was surprised to learn that in fact they "subcontract" their marketing & PR to outside firms which donate time (or under book rate)
10:44 JT4sugar Hasn't OLPC been doing that entire time?
10:44 SeanDaly So my idea is to step up, lay out SL marketing strategy & goals, and see what fits are possible
10:45 JT4sugar: yes... which sort of explains the drubbing they've had in the tech press, while getting great coverage in mainstream media - their PR partners don't really know tech industry
10:45 but, have ggreat mainstream media reach
10:46 keep in mind that although our marketing/PR goals are aligned, and coincident in many ways, there are important differences too
10:46 One key difference is that we aspire to be universal, while OLPC targets developing nations
10:46 greets dogi
10:46 RonF does mainstream appeal really drive educational acquisitions?
10:46 dogi hi SeanDaly
10:47 RonF or does ed press appeal do that?
10:47 hello dogi
10:47 SeanDaly RonF: we (SL) are not reaching teachers
10:47 i don't know what OLPC has been doing to reach teachers
10:48 But, most teachers I have met have heard of OLPC (without naming it), thru mainstream media
10:48 RonF teachers do not buy - but school tech guys do
10:48 dogi waves RonF
10:48 JT4sugar It may help to reach out to their PR partners to see what direction they are headed and then see if you can weave some of that into the Grand Vision for SL-leverage Sugar's use in deployments
10:48 RonF do they follwo specialty ed shows & press or mainstream tech?
10:48 SeanDaly RonF: clearly, which is why I worked urgently on tech press perceptions upon arrival a year ago
10:48 RonF: you mean OLPC?
10:49 RonF any ed tech
10:49 SeanDaly What i'd like to do is 1) raise funds and 2) buy advertising in teacher magazines
10:49 RonF how do school systems decide what to buy/deploy?
10:49 SeanDaly RonF: not sure who you mean by "they"
10:49 RonF school systems
10:50 SeanDaly RonF: an excellent resource is Christopher Dawson's blog on ZDNet
10:50 RonF I will take a look at it
10:50 SeanDaly School buyers generally buy commodity WIndows, some GNU/Linux servers, and specialized ed tech such as Blackboard
10:51 RonF In other words "nobody gets fired by buying the 'usual' stuff" thinking
10:52 walterbender hi... am I off by an hour?
10:52 RonF How did APple lose the ed market a decade ago?
10:52 SeanDaly RonF: sure
10:52 walterbender reading backlog
10:52 SeanDaly walterbender: only 50 minutes (no big deal)
10:52 RonF: in a word, price
10:53 And, cheap software offer richer on PC/Win than Apple
10:53 And, specialty hardware such as Blackboard Windows-only
10:53 C. Dawson blog: http://education.zdnet.com/
10:53 RonF Were schools sophisticated about TCO analysis like corporations?
10:54 SeanDaly RonF: I imagine so, but keep in mind they often have limited budgets, need to support older systems, hodgepodge of hardware, and training a big problem
10:55 RonF What did you think of the e-mail pitch for sugar I sent you SeanDaly?
10:55 Was it off base?
10:55 SeanDaly RonF: you mean changing the name?
10:55 RonF no
10:55 I sent a set of bullet points for selling sugar
10:56 SeanDaly Generally speaking best to post to list, for open discussion...
10:56 RonF: have to catch up with that one sorry
10:56 RonF Ok, if you want to be THAT open
10:56 it was dated Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 6:02 AM
10:56 titled" Sugar Labs - marketing team - The Sugar Gospel?
10:57 SeanDaly I started out not wanting to be that open, but there is a very great advantage in doing so: you reduce risk of being accused of backroom deals
10:57 RonF: OK wiill read & respond
10:57 anyway, back to OLPC-A if we can
10:57 the idea is to do a media launch of XO-1.5
10:57 Key for us: a newer version of Sugar is on it
10:58 this will kill 5 birds with 1 stone
10:58 OLPC & SL in conflict -> false
10:58 OLPC XOs run Windows -> hardly any
10:59 SL petering out -> SL alive & kicking (in fact we have made great progress on this with SoaS launches)
11:00 OLPC doing vaporware -> OLPC delivering hundreds of thousands of innovative laptops to kids in debeloping countries
11:00 s/debeloping/developing
11:00 Argentina news is very exciting
11:00 especially following Intel Classmate order
11:01 My understanding is that the Classmate is more for high school students there, and XOs for primary
11:01 RonF Will new Sugar versions remain compatible with XO-1?
11:01 SeanDaly We will be briefed by OLPC-A sales people
11:02 RonF: a simple question with complex answer
11:03 As far as I know, work has been done by martin Langhoff and others to backport Fedora v11/Sugar v0.84 to XO-1
11:03 reminder, XO-1 is still Fedora v9 / Sugar v0.82
11:03 in comparison, SoaS Blueberry is Fedora 12 / Sugar v0.86
11:04 XO-1.5 is Fedora v11 / Sugar v0.84 I think (need to check again so I don't say nonsense in PR)
11:04 cjb SeanDaly: that's right
11:04 JT4sugar What is timeframe of release? If backport ready would it be good to announce XO 1.5 and Upgrade ready for XO-1 at same time?
11:04 SeanDaly XO-1.5 has very interesting new functionality: dual-desktop with Gnome
11:05 cjb Peru's still on Fedora 7, even.  Deployments really don't like upgrading.
11:05 SeanDaly thanks cjb
11:05 RonF If it ain't broke...
11:05 SeanDaly cjb: understandably difficult... known bugs & limitations often preferable to unknown
11:05 cjb It took a very long time -- more than a year -- to get Uruguay to upgrade to the Fedora 9 release, and (unlike Peru) they have internet connectivity to almost every school
11:06 SeanDaly I have kept 2 of my purchased XO-1s at old builds for testing
11:06 cjb: i'm curious, what do you think is key obstacle?
11:07 cjb for Peru, the obstacle is simply getting the update to the laptops
11:07 SeanDaly the last-meter transfer
11:07 cjb some of these cities literally take three weeks to get to, using the fastest means of transportation available
11:07 (a slow/big truck)
11:07 and they don't have connectivity
11:08 so performing an upgrade costs Peru an enormous amount of money.  Uruguay's tiny and well-connected (only 2 million people in the whole country), so much less of a technical barrier
11:08 SeanDaly i was at OLPC France meeting last night and they described how boxes of XOs arrived in Nosy Komba (madagascar) by pirogue... "don't drop that bow in the water"
11:08 cjb for them, they'd made extension customizations to our build that they had to re-do for F11
11:08 SeanDaly s/bow/box
11:08 cjb and they'd printed paper manuals showing Sugar's old home screen which were no longer relevant
11:08 both of which made it expensive for them to upgrade too
11:09 JT4sugar cjb, Does that mean USB stick upgrade by hand one by one?
11:09 cjb JT4sugar: pretty much
11:09 SeanDaly cjb: it took me some time to understand just how much work it is to adapt a distro+desktop to hardware
11:09 cjb JT4sugar: you could do it one school at a time using a school server, if you had one of those
11:09 but they mostly don't have those either, again unlike Uruguay
11:10 SeanDaly cjb: among topics for marketing cooperation with OLPC-A will be supplying them with up-to-date screenshots for reprinting & distribution
11:10 RonF I have not followed sugar evolution, but I would guess major problem fixes would be much more welcome than new features at schools
11:10 cjb RonF: I think that's right
11:10 I assumed the new UI work would be attractive to deployments
11:10 SeanDaly I am convinced XS school server is key to OLPC and non-OLPC Sugar deployments
11:10 cjb but I got the impression -- at least at first -- that Peru and Uruguay both would have preferred if we just hadn't changed it
11:11 because they do in-person training and make paper manuals.  what are they supposed to do when the instructions change?
11:11 SeanDaly cjb: possibly harder for teachers (kids adapt quick)
11:11 cjb SeanDaly: it certainly helps a lot, but often the deployment can't afford them.
11:12 JT4sugar cjb, New UI versus logistic challenge I guess thats understandable where they come out
11:12 RonF Even I hate when things like menu structures change - my basal ganglia have learned one set of shortcuts, and now they have to learn a new set
11:12 SeanDaly it may be worthwhile for SL to debate doing long-term stable version versus every-six-month versions?
11:12 cjb SeanDaly: yeah, I think something like that would make sense
11:13 SeanDaly Many years ago I visited a testing room at Apple
11:13 cjb so far none of OLPC's deployments have been willing to upgrade every six months
11:13 SeanDaly Dozens of machines, dozens of configs
11:13 cjb usually they want to upgrade once a year, just before start of the school year
11:13 but even doing that is a huge logistical challenge for them
11:13 SeanDaly the guys there told me "we have it easy - the MS Windows guys have exponentially more HW to test"
11:14 cjb and costs them a surprisingly large amount of money to do
11:14 SeanDaly I think it was Daniel drake who developed nandblaster? is that useful for these cases?
11:15 cjb it was Mitch Bradley, mostly; it's very useful, but only works on one room at a time
11:15 it reflashes 50 XOs very quickly
11:15 but Peru has ~500k XOs
11:15 RonF I have to go but will log chat
11:16 SeanDaly RonF: I have the meetbot on, this will be posted in marketing meeting page
11:16 JT4sugar: on one final topic, 2010 marketing goals
11:17 I am convinced you are correct that we should canvass universities for volunteers coordinated by profs
11:18 At l'Atelier several profs came who said they would like to get their IT students on a "real" project and not just a play one
11:19 And SL projects fit the bill perfectly - no one can be against them
11:19 JT4sugar In that area I think a SOAS stick creation kit we can send to University Ed Tech Profs that allows them to replicate sticks as well as pdf training resources and then pass on to colleague like a baton is something we should work on
11:19 SeanDaly Sure but how do we build list of profs?
11:20 i suppose we could do legwork, start with top universities Computer Science depts
11:20 ideally i'd love to connect educators & developers:
11:21 ask educators for ideas for Activities, ask profs to have students code it
11:21 JT4sugar Pick a University-Pick an Ed Tech Prof-emails always available on University Site. Send them email about what we are looking for. Try to send to Ed Tech first they will know colleagues in Computer Science
11:21 SeanDaly just imagine how that could snowball
11:22 JT4sugar: time my most limited resource :D do you think there is an existing list anywhere? association?
11:22 JT4sugar Then if you could send a SoaS Stick creation kit that they can pass around- I think they call that Viral
11:23 SeanDaly Put another way, it's taken me a year to build topnotch list of tech journalists, and that's still mostly for Engish journos only
11:23 s/Engish/English-language
11:24 JT4sugar: i'm leery of plonking down another grand for sticks... I really want to develop fundraising drive for 2010
11:24 many many many initiatives possible if even mediocre funds
11:24 adverts in Ed press (Teacher magazine) could raise profile very quickly
11:25 JT4sugar I think you write down a list of ten Universities go to web sites find two Ed Tech teachers at each-send them email-state that you would like them to collaborate with their Computer science dept I think you would get good results
11:25 Couldn't you send SoaS Creation kit by Drop IO or some other service-no real cost that way
11:27 SeanDaly on phone...
11:27 JT4sugar: major cost is sticks
11:28 JT4sugar: not sure which top ten are.. haven't lived in USA for 20 years (and was college dropout even though National Merit Scholar)
11:30 JT4sugar Then can we put together SoaS Stick Creation Kit that we can send them the files-Ed Tech teachers will find the sticks to test/pilot
11:30 SeanDaly it would be ggreat if we could distribute flat cheap CD-ROMs which would build SoaS supplied by recipient
11:31 clearly though building a bootable stick is a barrrier
11:31 JT4sugar I'm not sure you need the Top Ten any Large University in US or Abroad will have a Ed Tech Department with Professors looking for Real life projects for students
11:31 sdziallas looks up.
11:32 SeanDaly needs to sign off soon
11:32 sdziallas depending on which operating system one's targetting, it shouldn't be too hard to create a SoaS Creation Kit.
11:32 SeanDaly JT4sugar: just wondering where to look for such a list but I think Forbes or somebody "rates" univs
11:33 cost of brochure & mailing probably less than cost of stick :-/
11:33 sdziallas the major thing that'd be needed is probably documentation. anyhow, I'll put that on my todo-list - no promises, though, as I'm pretty swamped lately.
11:34 SeanDaly sdziallas: ideally, ed tech professor receives kit with CD-ROM ; next day brings blank stick ; CD-ROM loads bootable SoaS, with no risk to existing system or data or external drives
11:34 sdziallas SeanDaly: yup, that's what I'd go for, too.
11:34 SeanDaly even more ideally of course stick in envelope, but cost a factor
11:35 maybe JT4sugar is right: we can spring for 20 sticks and start with top schools first
11:35 JT4sugar If we can create a set of 5 or 6 projects for University Students we could always set up a Collaboration Competition(Ed Tech, Comp Sci, Business students)for Universities to compete against each other
11:36 SeanDaly actually to be serious we basically need sales cycle: follow up mailing with phone call
11:36 JT4sugar: business Gaming a fast-growing phenomenon
11:37 Perhaps we should create a list of "10 Activities that don't exist yet" abd ask Ed tech profs concretely to choose one?
11:37 s/abd/and
11:37 sdziallas SeanDaly: is there any deadline for this Creation Kit or can I just take it on at some point? (I've some ideas about it, so this could be interesting)
11:37 JT4sugar 20 Sticks could equal 20 Universities plus Baton approach-have make 5 sticks and give to colleagues and so on
11:37 SeanDaly sdziallas: no deadline, we're 2010 brainstorming :D
11:37 sdziallas SeanDaly: hehe, nice ;)
11:38 satellit could a custom F12 live usb be  built to boot and run liveusb-creator? or a custom script?
11:38 sdziallas SeanDaly: I might be able to get something done around the end of Feb / beginning of March.
11:38 satellit s/live cd
11:38 SeanDaly sdziallas: we could possibly link this to the SoaS v3 Cloudberry launch
11:39 sdziallas SeanDaly: yeah, that sounds good!
11:39 (if we got it ready well in advance, it might be a nice thing to spread the word)
11:39 JT4sugar Would be very good to have done by April that way get on Campuses would give professors a chance to get familiar and  time over summer to play with
11:39 sdziallas JT4sugar: alright, I've "April" written down :)
11:39 SeanDaly JT4sugar: good point, Dell launched their education netbook the Latitude 2100 in May for that reason
11:40 charging station was not ready on media launch date, but they had to launch anyway
11:40 JT4sugar sdziallas, A good person to get help on this would be Gerald Ardito from New York XO/Soas Pilot
11:41 SeanDaly in 2010 SL needs to solve problems of resources: contributors + funds ; schools helping can make major difference I think
11:41 sdziallas JT4sugar: you mean for giving a test version a try?
11:41 JT4sugar sdziallas, That and advice on what documentation to include
11:41 SeanDaly for sure Gerald can share firsthand classroom experience
11:42 sdziallas sounds cool to me!
11:42 SeanDaly as stated earlier I'd like to get marketing business school students to help with merchandise project
11:43 t-shirts caps mugs online store
11:43 sdziallas maybe those folks from Babson College...
11:43 SeanDaly need to go now... anything else?
11:45 going once...
11:45 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Can you write up a one pager on Merchandise project and I will see if i can't facilitate something this semester
11:46 SeanDaly JT4sugar: ok that's a deliverable... will have that by next week
11:46 going twice...
11:46 JT4sugar Sounds good! Thanks!
11:47 SeanDaly thanks everyone
11:47 #endmeeting

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