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#sugar-meeting, 2010-02-08

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
09:09 bernie lurks
09:09 tomeu silbe: ok, so you would like to talk about the python DS API?
09:09 silbe tomeu: about sugar.datastore.datastore, yep.
09:10 tomeu so, agenda items: current release, python DS API
09:11 erikos: as a release manager, want to take the floor?
09:11 erikos tomeu: that should be enough for today
09:11 tomeu s/a/the
09:11 erikos ok
09:11 This is our schedule: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]/Roadmap#Schedule
09:12 (please note the colors in the Freeze-box)
09:12 we are currently in Feature Freeze
09:12 we asked the Features that have not landed yet, to ask for an exception
09:12 for those Features that have code already and are in review
09:13 this should be more of a 'following the process'
09:13 UI Freeze is next week
09:13 what I would like to see now is:
09:13 (in the next days)
09:13 until Wednesday land the Features
09:14 produce tarballs, and make a soas build
09:14 then do a testing session on Saturday
09:14 walterbender is here
09:14 erikos and fix the remaining UI changes (if needed)
09:14 walterbender erikos: I'll try to get the color selector patch finished today...
09:15 erikos walterbender: awesome
09:15 does this sound like doable to everybody?
09:15 I did soas-images today, so I am in the loop now of producing them
09:15 tomeu I don't have any features myself, but I can help a bit if needed
09:15 soas images are very important
09:16 erikos tomeu: great!
09:16 tomeu should we go through the features list in the wiki?
09:16 erikos tomeu: ok
09:16 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Feature_List
09:16 tomeu I have to leave in 45 mins approx.
09:17 erikos tomeu: ok, we make it quick
09:17 1) Enhanced color selector
09:17 walterbender: just said he will give us code today
09:17 tomeu nice
09:18 walterbender: do you know how big is the patch in lines approx.?
09:18 walterbender tomeu: well, it is a very minor change to the patch that aslroot made to my original patch.
09:18 but that original patch was pretty big.
09:19 tomeu: most of patch has been previously reviewed.
09:19 tomeu ok, that's good
09:19 erikos walterbender: and we had API change in it, or?
09:19 walterbender: the color in the toolkit, or?
09:19 walterbender tomeu: the change I am going to make today is reordering some buttons and changing the icons associated with them.
09:20 erikos, tomeu: actually, I never finished working on the start-screen version... just the control panel version, since I wanted to wait until the design settled.
09:20 so that patch could be invasive.
09:21 tomeu ah, it is planned to also change the initial screen?
09:21 walterbender my suggestion would be to leave the initial sequence as is for the 0.88
09:21 tomeu great
09:21 erikos walterbender: yeah, that might be good
09:22 ok, I guess next one
09:22 2) Tableview widget and thumbs view
09:22 we agreed to not land it in 0.88
09:22 alsroot: tomeu if I am not completely mistaken
09:23 should update the page
09:23 tomeu erikos: that's my understanding as well
09:23 erikos tomeu: ok
09:23 3) 3G Support
09:24 tomeu: you said there are two patches open
09:24 tomeu: how is the situation there?
09:24 tomeu: is the code currently in git working without them?
09:24 tomeu: or are those needed to make it fully functional
09:24 tomeu we have three patches
09:25 erikos ok
09:25 tomeu erikos: the code in git works, at least in paraguay
09:25 we have 2 from Daniel_C and one from aa
09:25 Daniel_C: how are your patches going?
09:25 erikos tomeu: parts of it is reviewed already?
09:25 tomeu: second round...or...
09:25 tomeu erikos: all three patches have been commented
09:26 I think they must be very close to land
09:26 erikos tomeu: ok, that is already good
09:26 tomeu they change UI, but not API
09:26 and should affect only to users with 3g devices
09:26 so are not too invasive
09:26 erikos tomeu: yup, we need one person taking care of it
09:26 Daniel_C tomeu:good, i made your "corrections"
09:27 tomeu Daniel_C: nice, I can look at them tomorrow
09:27 erikos tomeu: best with a 3G device to do a bit of initial testing, too
09:27 tomeu I will be traveling wed to fri, so I won't review those days
09:27 erikos tomeu: ok
09:27 tomeu erikos: what do you mean?
09:27 erikos tomeu: and you have a bit of time tomorrow?
09:27 tomeu yes, I will have some time tomorrow
09:27 erikos tomeu: I mean, we should split up the work
09:28 tomeu (hope the phone company didn't cut my connection at porto)
09:28 erikos tomeu: and best give clear responsability for the next days
09:28 tomeu: so we make sure, everything gets in
09:28 (if possible)
09:28 summarizes
09:29 we need a revieweer for color selector and one for 3G
09:29 tomeu we have still more features, right?
09:29 erikos tomeu: just summarized those two points ;p
09:29 3) Write to journal anytime
09:29 well, ...
09:30 in the design meeting we agreed to not go to the Journal detail view directly (when clsoing an activity)
09:30 (for 0.88)
09:31 we wanted to add a description button to the toolbar
09:31 silbe erikos: hu? So you changed the decision from the meeting before?
09:31 erikos silbe: yup
09:31 silbe erikos: Why?
09:31 erikos silbe: we first want to explore the behavior in testing
09:31 silbe erikos: But you still throw out the naming alert?
09:31 erikos silbe: as this is an invasive change, we don't want to just do it
09:32 silbe: I think that was the idea, yes
09:32 silbe erikos: I don't think changing only one half is a good idea.
09:33 tomeu is a bit lost, what half we want to have in 0.88 and what half don't?
09:33 erikos silbe: well, the naming alert was a half baked solution already ;p
09:33 silbe: so we end up at zero
09:34 silbe Not sure I agree with that, but it's a topic for the design team, not the development one, so let's continue with our agenda.
09:34 erikos tomeu: ok, we have the naming alert atm
09:35 tomeu: for 0.88 we want to get rid of it
09:35 tomeu: initially we wanted to replace the behavior with going to the J-detail view
09:35 tomeu: so, we don't seem to be fully sure about it
09:35 tomeu: so, we don't so it
09:36 tomeu: the question was now: whether to remove the naming alert then or not
09:36 tomeu so the design team has decided to remove the naming alert?
09:36 walterbender erikos: I would explain it a bit differently...
09:36 erikos walterbender: ok, please do ;p
09:36 walterbender (1) we want kids to write notes to the journal
09:37 (2) we put the naming alert in to enable/encourage that
09:37 (3) It failed on three counts: 1. only worked on exit; 2. confusing; 3. not well integrated.
09:38 (4) we could make the naming alert available at any time to address #1
09:38 (5) we could have the naming alert take you directly into a journal view to address #2,3
09:39 (6) or, more simply, replace the naming alert with a little text entry widget
09:39 erikos walterbender: ok, thanks that is much better then my phrasing
09:39 walterbender We decided on 6 at the design meeting because we thought it would be achievable
09:39 erikos walterbender: right
09:39 walterbender we have too many open design issues for #5
09:40 erikos walterbender: the problem with 6 is, that I did not get mockups
09:40 walterbender: and it adds API
09:40 tomeu what if we do nothing about it for 0.88.0 and if the testing reaches any conclusions, we backport the solution into 0.88.x?
09:40 erikos walterbender: and I only have initial code, though it is quite simple
09:40 tomeu: that might be wise, indeed
09:40 tomeu I mean, I don't think it's fair to remove resources for landing what is in the queue for landing something we aren't sure about yet
09:40 silbe tomeu: that would be my preference as well so we don't do any half-baked "solution" again
09:41 tomeu right
09:41 walterbender FWIW, my original proposal was just to make the current naming alert available on demand instead of forced at the end of the session, avoiding the design issue altogether until we had a better solution.
09:41 tomeu I think it's needed to guess when we first implement some UI element, but each time we rework it, we should increase the bar
09:41 walterbender I still think that plan has merit as it has a big return for minimal change and it leaves open the eventual design decision for later.
09:42 tomeu because otherwise, we are going to be changing the same things every release, I'm afraid
09:42 erikos walterbender: that is somehow what we said in (6), just that it is integrated into the toolbar directly
09:42 tomeu the experience testing that is going to happen is very encouraging in that sense
09:42 walterbender erikos: I agree that that is what we said, but to Tomeu's point, that is a more invasive change...
09:42 erikos walterbender: yup
09:43 tomeu: if we would backport something, can we remove then something as well?
09:43 walterbender but if we have the resources, I am in favor.
09:43 erikos tomeu: for example if we do (6), and backport to 0.88
09:43 tomeu: can we rmove then the naming alert, too?
09:43 tomeu erikos: I think we can consider backporting things only when downstreams ask for it really strongly
09:43 but need to take into account documentation
09:44 erikos oh, yeah :/
09:44 tomeu as in we need to update it and be conscious about the confusion it can bring
09:44 same for gconf switches that enable and disable things in the UI
09:44 erikos yes
09:44 tomeu with those caveats, we can do something else than waiting 6 months
09:45 erikos ok, I think let's see it positive
09:45 walterbender tomeu: on the one hand, there is noone downstream who currently uses 0.84 (yet) so the naming alert is still in their future
09:45 erikos is using 0.84
09:45 tomeu walterbender: well, there is simon ;)
09:45 walterbender tomeu: on the other hand, there is about to be a major push to 0.84
09:45 erikos disabled the naming alert ;D
09:45 walterbender I think now is the time to intercede, before the naming alert is deployed
09:45 tomeu walterbender: we have backported several features to 0.84 because downstream asked for them
09:46 walterbender tomeu: there has been a lot of downstream pull re a better way to writing notes to the journal
09:46 tomeu walterbender: unfortunately, downstreams aren't enough involved to validate the new designs
09:46 walterbender tomeu: and several deployments (e.g., Gerald in NY) will fork to get it if we don't provide it for them)
09:46 tomeu yet
09:46 erikos walterbender: we can backport to 0.84 if we agree on it
09:47 walterbender: we make tests this week in two deployments
09:47 walterbender: for the start new vs resume
09:47 silbe What about adding a toolbar button that takes you to the Journal details view? We already have API for that (Browse uses it for downloads).
09:47 tomeu walterbender: as a developer, I mostly care about changes that affect the stability of the code
09:47 erikos walterbender: I guess we can do the naming alert next week then
09:47 tomeu walterbender: if the design team is really sure that something is better, we can implement it
09:47 if the downsteams are really sure they want something, we can implement it
09:47 walterbender tomeu: yes. But I also think in this project, we need to consider the impact on learning !!!
09:47 tomeu but those groups needs to be really sure about what they are doing
09:48 walterbender downstream is sure that they want some way to write notes to the Journal
09:48 tomeu walterbender: what I'm saying is that I don't think it's me who needs to decide that
09:49 walterbender tomeu: but we lean on yo to help us figure a path from where we are to where they want to be with minimal impact on stability now and later.
09:49 tomeu walterbender: but as a regular member of the community, I warn about changes done by urgency, without a process
09:50 walterbender: well, as a developer, I expect the community to say: this is what we need, and we need it in that release
09:50 that isn't so easy
09:50 in the design meetings, there wasn't much input from deployers
09:50 walterbender tomeu: I am not sure what you are implying... as far as when it lands, that is one thing, but there certainly has been process used in this decision.
09:51 tomeu walterbender: well, the process followed would make it land in 0.90
09:51 walterbender tomeu: I didn't propose the feature unilaterally. I proposed it in discussion with deployers.
09:51 tomeu: deployers have been involved.
09:51 tomeu walterbender: ok, that;s fine with me then
09:51 walterbender but tomeu, I can live with the 0.90 decision.
09:52 tomeu what I _really_ would like to see, is a final push to finish with 0.88.0 as planned
09:52 walterbender I will just help Gerald with his fork--we'll get more testing done that way.
09:52 tomeu and then see what we can do further
09:52 walterbender and merge again for 0.90
09:52 tomeu forks can be very useful in this regard
09:52 walterbender: we can merge before 0.90, as I said before
09:52 walterbender tomeu: my biggest concern actually is that all of the 0.84 deployments will be getting the naming alert...
09:52 erikos walterbender: I can understand that this Feature is important for you
09:52 tomeu but any feature backports need to be carefully discussed
09:53 walterbender maybe we should consider removing it now.
09:53 tomeu should we move to the next one and continue this on the ml?
09:53 walterbender before a broken idea is deployed widely.
09:53 tomeu needs to take a plane
09:53 silbe tomeu: +1
09:53 walterbender OK.
09:54 erikos ok
09:54 tomeu Enhanced Gettext
09:54 erikos I think the only item eft is activity version
09:54 tomeu: oh yeah and that one
09:54 tomeu is that going to land
09:54 ?
09:54 unmadindu: what needs to happen before it lands?
09:54 that page says it's at 10%
09:54 erikos tomeu: yes, unmadindu wasn't aten by a bear in the end
09:55 tomeu: I made a first review
09:55 tomeu: and a second one even
09:55 unmadindu tomeu: which one ? the locale dir or the settings-manager ?
09:55 erikos tomeu: we land it today!
09:55 unmadindu: locale
09:55 tomeu wow, great
09:55 erikos unmadindu: don't say something contrary ;p
09:56 tomeu ok, so if erikos and unmadindu have it under control, shall we move to the next one?
09:56 unmadindu erikos: nothing much - I need to do pep8 and incorporate erikos's feedback. the de vs de_DE can be fixed as a bugfix IMHO
09:56 erikos tomeu: ok, the activity version
09:56 tomeu: I need to do a bit of testing what is wrong
09:56 tomeu and " Font configuration "?
09:56 erikos tomeu: hopefully today, too
09:57 tomeu: nothing to do here for the UI
09:57 tomeu: will be 0.90
09:57 tomeu yeah, activity version was quite close already
09:57 silbe unmadindu: does it fix #622 as well? (i.e. configurable "system" translation location)
09:57 tomeu ok, but font size config is going to land soon?
09:57 packagers need time to package the settings manager
09:57 unmadindu silbe: yes
09:57 silbe unmadindu: awesome!
09:58 erikos tomeu: I thought it is functional without the manager
09:58 unmadindu tomeu: I can make a release tonight. or we can take some time to pack it as a binary with sugar
09:58 erikos tomeu: vie gconf
09:58 unmadindu erikos: you need to restart sugar without manager
09:58 erikos unmadindu: that is fine for me
09:58 tomeu hmm
09:58 erikos unmadindu: as a first start
09:58 tomeu unmadindu: but we don't have an UI to change it anyway
09:58 erikos hehe
09:58 tomeu so I guess it is something that the deployer sets?
09:58 unmadindu yeah
09:58 tomeu trying to understand it
09:59 erikos I guess we don't need to rush it then
09:59 but can already work on it, to get it into 0.90
09:59 tomeu unmadindu: so in your opinion, the settings manager is useful only if we have an UI to change the font in sugar?
09:59 erikos UI and manager
09:59 unmadindu yes
09:59 so let me make a release
09:59 but lets not make sugar 0.88 depend on it
10:00 tomeu unmadindu: +1 it may be backported if a deployment really wants an UI
10:00 unmadindu this give more time for packagers
10:00 erikos unmadindu: please do the locale feature then first
10:00 unmadindu tomeu: yes
10:00 tomeu it can be very useful for accessibility
10:00 unmadindu erikos: sure - will do
10:00 erikos unmadindu: perfect ;p
10:00 tomeu unmadindu: so maybe we can include it as a sugar module but not make the shell depend on it?
10:00 unmadindu tomeu: yeah - but then we need to do some kind of conditional start up, or else deployments have to patch sugar as well
10:01 tomeu unmadindu: hmm, why?
10:01 erikos has to go now
10:01 can we give out action items?
10:01 tomeu I'm just taking into account the possibility that a 0.88.2 release will depend on it
10:01 unmadindu tomeu: someone needs to start the sugar-settings-manager process, and it needs to start early. also we need to get rid of some code from sugar
10:02 tomeu unmadindu: ok, those changes would be in 0.88.2
10:02 unmadindu tomeu: see http://pastebin.be/23210 for an example
10:02 tomeu erikos: ok
10:02 unmadindu tomeu: ok, sounds fine to me
10:02 silbe erikos: when are you on IRC again so we can discuss the data store stuff?
10:02 erikos silbe: in a bit
10:02 tomeu unmadindu: great, this is a very important feature for sugar
10:02 silbe erikos: ok, great.
10:03 tomeu silbe: I won't have time today, sorry :/
10:03 so, quickly, action items
10:03 silbe tomeu: but tomorrow?
10:03 tomeu I will be reviewing patches
10:03 erikos tomeu: 3G?
10:03 tomeu silbe: I think so
10:03 erikos: yup
10:03 erikos who takes enhaved color selctor?
10:03 silbe tomeu: do you have time tomorrow as well?
10:04 tomeu I could take it if needed
10:04 erikos does continue with saya and the locale one
10:04 tomeu silbe: I think so, but need to see if I have still net at home
10:04 silbe tomeu: ok, let's try to meet tomorrow then.
10:05 tomeu silbe: yup, sorry for not being able to tell a time
10:05 Daniel_C: will you attach the reviewed patches and set the r? flag?
10:05 silbe tomeu: no problem. If it doesn't work out we'll do it by email.
10:06 tomeu that's good
10:06 erikos tomeu: ok, I let you take the enhenced one then
10:06 tomeu: i will update the release items then in the meantime
10:06 runs
10:06 Daniel_C tomeu: ok
10:07 silbe ok, anything left to discuss now?
10:07 tomeu anybody is left afraid of his feature not landing in time?
10:09 if not, I guess we can close this meeting
10:10 #closemeeting
10:10 #stopmeeting
10:10 hmm
10:10 silbe try #endmeeting
10:10 tomeu #endmeeting

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