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#sugar-meeting, 2010-02-06

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10:37 erikos #TOPIC 0.88 Release (4)
10:37 #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Team/0.88_Meeting
10:38 christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]iew_Start_New.png
10:38 christianmarcsch erikos: thanks
10:38 erikos: you mentioned you had a few questions?
10:38 erikos haveing the 'Start new option here as the first option after the title is correct, or?
10:39 christianmarcsch erikos: actually, i think we had agreed to put it last
10:39 erikos http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]e_View_Resume.png and here at the bottom
10:39 christianmarcsch: in both cases?
10:39 christianmarcsch erikos: actually, let me think back
10:39 erikos: no, i think you have it right
10:40 erikos: the default should always come first
10:40 erikos: i believe that is for consistency with other menus
10:41 erikos christianmarcsch: yeah, that sounds right to me, too
10:41 christianmarcsch erikos: though i do think it's a little strange to repeat "neu beginnen" twice
10:41 erikos christianmarcsch: right
10:41 christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ew_No_Entries.png
10:41 christianmarcsch: here, espacially
10:41 christianmarcsch erikos: in that case, do we even need the additional item "neu beginnen"?
10:42 erikos christianmarcsch: yeah, I was wondering, too
10:42 christianmarcsch erikos: yes, it looks redundant
10:42 erikos christianmarcsch: I thought, for consistency
10:42 christianmarcsch erikos: you can click the very top item, right? the label?
10:42 erikos christianmarcsch: no, you can't
10:42 christianmarcsch erikos: ah
10:42 erikos: so there's the dilemma
10:43 erikos christianmarcsch: you have to see it as a primary (descriptive) label
10:43 christianmarcsch erikos: at the very least, we could remove "neu beginnen" from the top label
10:43 erikos christianmarcsch: I see what you mean, yeah
10:43 christianmarcsch: but then it does not match that well with the resume one
10:43 christianmarcsch: as we have there 'activity name' and entry title
10:44 christianmarcsch erikos: this is an interesting case
10:44 erikos: i think we need to get eben involved, since he has better knowledge of these kind of system-wide details
10:45 erikos christianmarcsch: ok, I can do it like we have for the moment (for the test)
10:45 christianmarcsch erikos: but in my opinion, we should use the opportunity to revise this system
10:45 erikos: yes, for the test these are fine
10:45 erikos christianmarcsch: ok
10:45 christianmarcsch erikos: systemically, they make sense, but i think users will be confused by the repetition
10:46 erikos christianmarcsch: agreed
10:46 christianmarcsch erikos: but not to worry for the time being--we'll address it after the test
10:46 erikos christianmarcsch: nice
10:46 christianmarcsch: my second question was about the following:
10:46 we talked about making the Journal more prominant in the home view
10:47 --- Add the Journal to the activity ring (at the top) in the Home view, colored to make it accessible in the home view all the time
10:47 christianmarcsch yes
10:47 erikos Add a list of the n most recent activities to the Journal's secondary palette to be able to resume from
10:47 I wonder if adding it to the ring is a good idea
10:47 as we have different layouts (ring, box, triangle, sunflower...)
10:47 christianmarcsch why? i actually thought it would help
10:47 erikos I just mean it could be:
10:48 a) over the XO icon
10:48 b) instead of the current activity icon
10:48 christianmarcsch: I added it to the ring for testing and it looked strange
10:48 christianmarcsch erikos: it would be good to see
10:49 first of all, i think we need to keep the current activity icon below the XO
10:49 erikos ok
10:49 christianmarcsch i know there were some people in the last meeting saying that it doesn't receive much use,
10:49 but i believe that it's necessary to continue the interaction model from the other zoom-levels,
10:49 and that it's useful as a status indicator
10:50 putting the journal in place of the current activity would mix up the model and people's expectations
10:50 then, putting it above the XO seems a little heavy-handed, and adds another type of thing that the user has to parse and understand
10:51 erikos hmmm, yeah it is a bit ard
10:51 hard
10:51 christianmarcsch i'd like to see the mockup, because to me the simplest and best solution would be to have journal at the top of the ring
10:51 as the first activity
10:51 the other layouts were never "officially" part of the design, so it's hard for me to address how they could support this treatment
10:52 while i know that they are liked internally, i've always felt that the ring by itself would suffice
10:52 walterbender +1 to putting the Journal at the top (or bottom) or the ring...
10:52 christianmarcsch walterbender: the bottom would work as well...
10:53 just to comment on the other arrangements (triangle etc.), you could simply treat the journal as the first item in the "list"
10:53 and adopt the same layout algo
10:55 erikos christianmarcsch: where would you put it in the sunflower layout?
10:55 christianmarcsch i would adopt the same layout algorithm there, as well, and just have journal either first (or last) in the list of activities
10:56 erikos ok
10:56 christianmarcsch in other words, just be very systematic about it
10:56 erikos christianmarcsch: I will see if I can get it together for the test
10:56 christianmarcsch: not sure there is enough time
10:56 christianmarcsch great
10:56 it would be nice, though
10:56 erikos christianmarcsch: if tomeu can help me ;D
10:57 christianmarcsch erikos: i think having the journal there, especially in the start new mode, would help us understand whether children are resuming from the journal
10:57 erikos yeah, I do my best!
10:57 christianmarcsch: walterbender anything else we need to discuss for the test?
10:57 christianmarcsch: do you plan to attend the test?
10:58 christianmarcsch erikos: i may not be able to, unless it's a weekend...
10:58 erikos christianmarcsch: ahh, I see
10:58 christianmarcsch erikos: i would like to if possibe
10:58 erikos christianmarcsch: maybe eben or walterbender can
10:58 christianmarcsch erikos: i'll check with gerald
10:58 erikos christianmarcsch: nice!
10:59 christianmarcsch it sounds like we're all set, once the builds are ready
10:59 erikos christianmarcsch: superb
11:01 christianmarcsch anything else we should talk about today?
11:01 erikos ok, next one
11:01 christianmarcsch ok
11:01 erikos Write to Journal anytime
11:02 tomeu: was worried about switching to the Journal when closing an activity for the first time
11:02 (Journal detail view)
11:02 walterbender erikos: was it clear my comment about it being an addendum as oppose to the entire entry?
11:02 erikos and at least, we would like to see tests before making such a change
11:02 tomeu wrote about it in the ml, I'm afraid that unexpected transitions from a full screen to another are confusing people
11:03 erikos walterbender: maybe not, can you repeat?
11:04 walterbender I think that the editing function on the toolbar should only be for adding a new entry, not editing the old entry...
11:04 adding notes to the existing description
11:04 erikos walterbender: oh, that I understood
11:04 walterbender erikos: the naming alert brings up the entire description, which is unecessary
11:05 erikos walterbender: is this because you are worried of screen size?
11:05 walterbender: I mean to reveal a too big palette?
11:05 walterbender erikos: and additional complexity in the activity
11:05 erikos christianmarcsch: let me know if the subject of discussion is not clear yet
11:06 walterbender (to be honest, I think we have made the color selector way too complex :( )
11:06 erikos walterbender: you mean, if one wants to write a description of the activity one would do that in te Journal anyhow?
11:06 christianmarcsch sorry, catching up--one sec
11:06 erikos christianmarcsch: sure :)
11:07 walterbender: (color selector should be next :)
11:07 christianmarcsch i see the issue tomeu brings up, but i prefer using the journal to add descriptions as well
11:08 could we find a way to make the transition less disruptive?
11:08 so currently, when i close an activity, what happens?
11:08 i land back in home?
11:08 erikos christianmarcsch: yes, or if another activity is open, that one is resumed
11:09 christianmarcsch: if you close for the first time (no title is set) you see the naming alert
11:09 christianmarcsch erikos: that's what i remembered...
11:09 erikos christianmarcsch: an alert that has the same size as the control panel
11:09 christianmarcsch: ok
11:09 christianmarcsch erikos: and the naming alert is non-modal?
11:09 erikos: got it
11:09 erikos christianmarcsch: right, you have to dismiss it
11:10 christianmarcsch erikos: and the notion is that instead of the alert, we'd take users to the journal detail view?
11:11 erikos: frankly, that seems fine, and in a way less disruptive than the alert
11:11 erikos christianmarcsch: yes
11:11 christianmarcsch it emphasizes that everything is automatically save to the journal
11:11 walterbender but all of this is orthogonal to the issue of being able to make annotations easily while in an activity...
11:12 christianmarcsch walterbender: how would you currently do that? through the toolbar?
11:12 walterbender It is very important that adding notes re what you are doing while you are doing it is easy
11:12 erikos christianmarcsch: you can only change the title at the moment
11:12 walterbender to switch to the journal would be disruptive
11:12 christianmarcsch walterbender: agreed
11:13 walterbender to be able to make a note in the toolbar is simple and adequate
11:13 christianmarcsch walterbender: makes me wonder if what we need is a panel with a "window" into the journal, similar to the object finder
11:14 then the naming alert could be presented in the same way: an overlay, containing the detail view of the journal object
11:14 there may be a button in the toolbar to invoke the window in order to take notes,
11:15 walterbender christianmarcsch: maybe... it would be nice if the journal were just an extension of the Frame :)
11:15 but I lost that battle years ago :)
11:15 christianmarcsch walterbender: heh, there were always two opinions on that issue...
11:16 walterbender: but i think the notion of a meta-activity works well for journal
11:16 walterbender: but you are also referring to the simplicity of entering a comment right into the toolbar in an activity
11:17 walterbender christianmarcsch: in that case, I am glad the journal will be in the ring :)
11:17 christianmarcsch erikos: is there a mockup on the wiki for notetaking in an activity?
11:17 erikos: it would help to have something to look at...
11:17 erikos christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Description.png
11:18 christianmarcsch thanks
11:18 walterbender christianmarcsch: I think the idea of switching to the journal while you are working is disruptive... whether it is a toolbar field or a panel into the journal, as long as it is invoked within the context of your current activity, I am happy
11:19 erikos walterbender: yeah, I agree - I like a little button to make a little note best
11:19 christianmarcsch walterbender: yes, i agree with that. i actually think the current solution is fine. but if we want to explore another option, instead of the description palette we could try a dialog window with a view into the journal
11:20 still, the current solution looks straightforward. it may be best to stick with it.
11:20 erikos christianmarcsch: ok, should we focus on the description palette for 0.88 then?
11:20 christianmarcsch: and revisit for 0.90
11:20 christianmarcsch erikos: yes. though naming upon closing an activity is a separate issue, no?
11:21 erikos notes that we have 11 minutes left (this week we stick to the 1 hour meeting time)
11:21 christianmarcsch: I would just take the naming alert out
11:21 christianmarcsch erikos: and transition to journal?
11:21 erikos christianmarcsch: maybe not for 0.88
11:21 christianmarcsch: I would make tests for that one first
11:22 christianmarcsch erikos: so, we'd revisit that for 0.90 as well
11:22 erikos christianmarcsch: I tried it in a quick hack, and wasn't directly convinced
11:22 walterbender as long as the transition is not too disruptive...
11:22 erikos walterbender: ideally, it would be an animation or similar
11:23 christianmarcsch ok. we should pick this up again and explore it in more depth. in the meantime, will taking out the naming alert be effective? didn't we have it there in the first place so that children would start naming their activities?
11:23 erikos christianmarcsch: actually, I took it out in my deplyment
11:23 christianmarcsch: 6 months ago
11:23 christianmarcsch: I ask the kids to take nates after each lesson
11:23 walterbender it was never used in any major deployment...
11:24 erikos christianmarcsch: in the Journal, it works quite well
11:24 christianmarcsch ah ok, just checking. i still need to get on the latest build
11:24 erikos christianmarcsch: oh, it is in 0.84 and 0.86
11:24 christianmarcsch: I just removed it, since the kids were so confused
11:24 uses 0.84
11:25 christianmarcsch by the way; this is an aside, but the blueberry build is now in MoMAs permanent collection
11:25 erikos wow!
11:25 christianmarcsch they had been asking for a build they could archive, and i dropped it off early this week
11:25 erikos christianmarcsch: do you have a note we could send to sebastian?
11:26 christianmarcsch: it would be nice as he invests so much into Soas
11:26 christianmarcsch erikos: sure! i will write one when we are done
11:26 erikos christianmarcsch: thanks :)
11:26 ok last question, how should the description button looks like?
11:27 walterbender mentioned to only make it for adding notes
11:27 "being an addendum as oppose to the entire entry"
11:27 christianmarcsch i think ideally it would look like an addition to the name textfield, like a plus or a right-arrow suggesting more detail
11:28 it could even be combined with the textfield, though that may mean adding a new type of control
11:28 erikos maybe it could be the '>' like we use in the Journal
11:29 christianmarcsch erikos: yes, that might work, if we embed the ">" inside the textfield at the right edge
11:29 if i can get eben to send me the latest design source files for this view, i can take a stab at it
11:30 i'll send you something probably later today
11:30 erikos ok, that would be nice
11:30 and maybe you can think about if we do display the current discription
11:30 or just make it possible to add text
11:31 christianmarcsch sure
11:31 erikos perfect
11:32 walterbender: christianmarcsch the only thing lesft is the color selector
11:32 christianmarcsch great--let's take a look
11:32 erikos http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ed_Color_Selector
11:33 walterbender to me, visually they are all a mess
11:33 christianmarcsch walterbender: do you have any preference among these?
11:33 erikos hmmm
11:33 walterbender I much prefer the simplicity of http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]selector-0.88.png
11:34 and the kids will figure it out without labels...
11:34 but maybe christianmarcsch can save the day...
11:35 christianmarcsch heh, no pressure... ;)
11:35 i have to say, the original version is clean
11:35 erikos christianmarcsch: the one walter posted?
11:35 christianmarcsch yes, though i'm a little confused by the fill vs. stroke distinction
11:35 but visually, it's a clean solution
11:36 the "plus" makes more sense logically, but is less aesthetically pleasing
11:36 the grid does look rather complex, though i feel that this option may have more potential than is shown here
11:37 erikos christianmarcsch: yeah, I like the grid, too
11:37 christianmarcsch the sliders seem very functional to me, though perhaps less fun than some of the other options
11:37 rows of XOs doesn't seem to work that well, IMO
11:38 though there is also something nice about the last two screenshots
11:38 erikos walterbender: can you go back one step, with your design?
11:38 walterbender erikos: yes
11:39 erikos walterbender: ok, nice ;p
11:39 christianmarcsch this one? http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]selector-0.88.png
11:39 erikos christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]selector-0.88.png
11:40 christianmarcsch: this one
11:40 walterbender erikos: the only thing I would change is to put the two stoke buttons together and the two fill buttons together... right now they are on opposite sides of the XO
11:40 christianmarcsch walterbender: what do you think about the grid?
11:41 what if we expanded the grid to fill the full width of the window?
11:41 so it doesn't feel so contained?
11:41 walterbender christianmarcsch: I think (a) it is overkill and (b) it is too complex given that you need to scroll it
11:41 erikos christianmarcsch: as walter has german roots he should like the grid, too ;D
11:41 christianmarcsch heh, fair enough
11:42 walterbender erikos: but the grid doesn't work with the big XO in the middle either...
11:42 christianmarcsch walterbender: that's true, it would be nice to integrate the XO
11:42 walterbender: i actually like how the XO is in the center of the design you sent
11:43 erikos agrees
11:43 christianmarcsch so, is the problem with this design (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]elector-0.88.png) that you can't go back?
11:43 erikos btw, some of the designs have technical problems (at least for 0.88)
11:44 christianmarcsch: you can go back with that one, too
11:44 christianmarcsch erikos: how?
11:44 erikos christianmarcsch: with the arrow
11:44 christianmarcsch erikos: aha
11:44 erikos christianmarcsch: it is a list, actually
11:44 walterbender christianmarcsch: that one just cycles through all the color choices...
11:45 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]selector-0.88.png cycles through just stroke or just fill, hence the four little XOs instead of two
11:45 christianmarcsch walterbender: there is something intriguingly simple about that option... why deviate from it? did it meet with confusion?
11:45 walterbender christianmarcsch: I was happy with it...
11:46 erikos with or without arrows?
11:46 walterbender erikos: I don't mind the arrows, but they are not necessary...
11:46 christianmarcsch walter's new design (without arrows) actually seems fine IMO. it's not fully clear from the beginning, though i imagine one would figure it out fairly quickly
11:46 walterbender christianmarcsch: I know kids would deal...
11:46 erikos ok, works for me
11:47 christianmarcsch visually, i agree it is the cleanest of the solutions
11:47 could we actually make it a little bigger to fill the space better?
11:47 walterbender erikos: I can modify alroot's modification of my patch it you'd like to try it.
11:47 christianmarcsch my only complaint is that the layout feels a little unresolved
11:47 erikos walterbender: sounds great for me
11:48 s/for/to
11:48 walterbender erikos: I'll try to get to it over the next day or two...
11:48 erikos walterbender: nice!
11:48 we have to take a decisions at some point...
11:48 at least for 0.88
11:48 christianmarcsch i can send through a quick variation on the layout if it would help
11:48 erikos nods
11:48 walterbender christianmarcsch: that'd be great...
11:49 erikos hurray!
11:49 let me put together the action items then
11:49 #ACTION simon does get the builds for the testing session together
11:50 #ACTION works with Tomeu on 'making the Journal present in the home view"
11:50 #ACTION christian mockup for the 'add/change discription from within the activity'
11:51 #ACTION chistian layout for walter's design on the color selector http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]selector-0.88.png
11:51 #ACTION walter getting a new patch together
11:51 did I miss something?
11:51 christianmarcsch sounds good
11:52 erikos ok, christianmarcsch I will keep you and gerald posted on the images
11:52 walterbender: we keep in touch with the color selector
11:52 thanks everyone for joining in!
11:53 biweekly from now on?
11:53 or next week again? :D
11:53 with the result from the tests this week, might be good actually...
11:54 christianmarcsch biweekly would be better...
11:54 but it would be great if you could keep sending us reminders!
11:54 erikos ok, we can talk about the results as well by email
11:55 christianmarcsch: ok, will do (if I know I do not annoy people that is fine :)
11:55 christianmarcsch definitely
11:55 erikos ok ttyl
11:55 christianmarcsch and no, it's a huge help
11:55 thanks! ttyl
11:55 erikos #stopmeeting
11:55 #endmeeting

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