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#sugar-meeting, 2010-02-05

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Time Nick Message
11:06 walterbender A quick roll call:
11:06 here
11:06 SeanDaly here
11:06 cjb here
11:06 tomeu as well
11:06 walterbender I hope mchua pops in for the GSoC discussion
11:07 meanwhile, shall we start with the usual: Trademarks?
11:07 #topic update on TM discussion
11:08 SeanDaly I had a message from Joe Raftery, but he edited my wiki page instead of sending a mail, he asked a question but I can't reach him
11:08 walterbender SeanDaly, cjb: anything worth summarizing from the discussions on the lists?
11:08 SeanDaly I think there's a concern that the procedure will be complex
11:08 I think it should be policy for approval to be fast-track for FOSS projects,
11:08 cjb walterbender: I think everyone who commented was against the idea that we need more strict trademark rules than the other free software projects we've been comparing ourselves to
11:09 SeanDaly and deeper review for commercial partners
11:09 walterbender SeanDaly, cjb: do we have any specific language to propose?
11:09 SeanDaly well, there were two comments... and no reply to my reply
11:10 Not today I'm afraid since I was wiped out from l'Atelier OLPC France day (which went very well)
11:11 But, it's clearer and clearer to me how I think it should work
11:11 walterbender SeanDaly: it is great that the atelier went well...
11:11 SeanDaly yes I will brief SLOBs on great contacts in separate mail
11:11 walterbender SeanDaly, cjb: maybe the next step is for the two of you to work together on some new langauge to post to the lists...
11:11 SeanDaly my pres. appreciated and will be published by OLPC France
11:12 back on topic: two things
11:12 walterbender SeanDaly: (we need to follow up re Rotary one of these days too.)
11:12 SeanDaly re other FOSS projects: the only one I'm interested in comparing with is a successful one
11:12 walterbender: true
11:12 Mozilla has been very successful with branding
11:13 However, that doesn't mean we need to carbon copy their policy
11:13 I'd like to emulate Dolby and Intel, but without the fees
11:13 walterbender SeanDaly cjb: it seems the two of you are representative of the diversity of opinions, so if you can reach consensus, it will prob. be a good position.
11:14 SeanDaly walterbender: sounds good
11:14 cjb walterbender: ok
11:14 not sure what a concrete next step should be, though
11:14 walterbender would you have time over the next week?
11:14 SeanDaly second point: in light of my first point, are we sure we never want to charge commercial partners?
11:14 cjb I'm interested in whether it's possible to use automatic revocation upon non-compliance in trademark licenses
11:14 but I don't know how to find an answer to that
11:15 SeanDaly cjb: it sure is, but the question is enforcement
11:15 walterbender cjb: the goal is something simple and inviting for FOSS projects while maintaining some degree of oversight (as required by TM law and by our community standards)
11:15 cjb SeanDaly: surely if we don't have any enforcement available, it doesn't matter what the policy says?
11:15 SeanDaly cjb: we do have enforcement
11:15 cjb ah.  what exactly is the question, then?
11:16 SeanDaly but just because the law says somebody can't steal a car, I won't leave a car running unattended with the keys in the ignition
11:16 cjb I don't have any strong opinions on whether we should charge commercial partners, by the way :)
11:17 SeanDaly re commercial partners: my instinct is to leave it open... it could be a very useful revenue stream even if peanuts per station
11:17 cjb except that we are very small, and the groups we occasionally try and compare ourselves to (whether Mozilla or Dolby) are very big, and if you become as onerous to work with as a very big organization while you're still a small organization, you don't find as many people to work with.
11:17 SeanDaly cjb: the question is, how do you make the policy strong enough that anyone tempted to flout it will likely lose in court
11:17 cjb so I'd be concerned about charging for marks as a strategic question -- will this create the largest ecosystem or not -- but nothing more than that.
11:17 tomeu about charging partners, I think I have heard from martin langhoff about how moodle does it
11:18 walterbender can we put aside the question of whether or not we charge people... that is seemingly orthogonal and yet another can of worms.
11:18 tomeu not sure how well fares the moodle brand, though ;)
11:18 SeanDaly tomeu: moodle brand not known by public, but well-known among educators by word-of-mouth
11:19 I believe they have a rather restrictive partner policy: 2 per country
11:19 cjb wow, that is a surprising policy
11:19 walterbender well, keeping in mind that we need more mindshare from educators...
11:19 tomeu SeanDaly: not sure if they consider general public awareness as so important
11:19 walterbender SeanDaly: yes. 2 per region.
11:19 SeanDaly dfarning had briefed me on them a while back
11:20 walterbender SeanDaly: (I had briefed dfarning based on a briefing from martin :) )
11:20 SeanDaly :D
11:20 cjb SeanDaly: would it make sense to put a question in to Karen asking whether they've ever seen a GPL-like trademark license, and if they feel comfortable defending it?
11:20 mchua GAH. I'm actually here, irssi didn't highlight the window. caught up on backlog though.
11:20 walterbender SeanDaly: I am sure Martin would be willing to share his experiences with you.
11:20 SeanDaly walterbender: which martin again?
11:21 walterbender SeanDaly: Langhoff
11:21 SeanDaly ok
11:21 tomeu he has been thinking about sustainability and partners for a while, I think SeanDaly might find interesting his opinions
11:21 SeanDaly cjb: well, their role is to defend our copyright, trademarks etc.
11:21 walterbender for the sake of keeping on schedule, can we take it as an #action that cjb and SeanDaly  will congress and come up with some new language?
11:22 SeanDaly tomeu: yes, I discussed that with him last I was in Brussels
11:22 walterbender and run it past the lists?
11:22 cjb SeanDaly: right, but they clearly have preferences on how they like to do that
11:22 SeanDaly walterbender: sounds good
11:22 tomeu ah, ok
11:22 cjb maybe they will say "we think automatic trademark licenses don't work and we don't want to use them"
11:22 and that would be useful to hear
11:22 SeanDaly cjb: Karen said: "decide what you want & we will write the language"
11:22 tomeu thanks cjb and SeanDaly for taking this unsexy task
11:22 cjb ok, we'll work on it :)
11:23 walterbender #action cjb and SeanDaly will draft some new TM and run it past the community for review.
11:23 SeanDaly it's like sowing seeds in the rough: odds against us to get it right, but worth the effort
11:23 cjb (I don't think we will have new policy ready for next week, though, given that we're still a bit far away philosophically.)
11:23 walterbender SeanDaly: actually, I think that the two of you are the right ones...
11:24 SeanDaly cjb: well, a fair policy for FOSS projects with fast-track approval - what's not to like? :D
11:24 walterbender we are never going to all agree on ever detail, but if we can find something we can all work with productively...
11:25 let's run through a few other agenda items in the meantime.
11:25 SeanDaly walterbender: after plain English policy will be legal doc by Karen, so still a ways to go...
11:26 walterbender SeanDaly: as long as we are moving towards the goal.
11:26 On a related topic, we have a few new TM requests that have come in this week.
11:26 SeanDaly walterbender: top-of-mind! :D
11:27 I'm especially interested in openSUSE case
11:27 walterbender Paraguay would like to use our mark and become some flavor of Sugar Lab...
11:27 they'd like an agreement from us.
11:27 SeanDaly we don't have a way of recognizing "official" local labs do we?
11:27 a procedure even?
11:27 walterbender Well, we are somewhat mired at the moment.
11:28 we had a process in place before the TM debate
11:28 but the TM debate seems to superceed it.
11:28 SeanDaly yes, related...
11:29 tomeu may be interesting to move forward with SLs argentina, in sight of recent news
11:29 walterbender They are an ideal partner--strong in both pedagogy and technology and very strongly aligned with FOSS
11:30 cjb tomeu: what's the recent news?
11:30 walterbender if we cannot come up with a policy that expedites such requests, we are doing the wrong thing.
11:30 tomeu cjb: 60k xo-1.5 in la rioja
11:30 cjb cool, hadn't seen that number
11:30 dogi :)
11:30 tomeu arboleda was nice enough to mention sugar to the press
11:30 cjb nice, got a url?
11:31 tomeu there's a thread in iaep, and I have just blogged about it
11:31 SeanDaly http://tecnologia.iprofesional[…]contra-Intel.html
11:31 walterbender it was in email today...
11:31 cjb thanks
11:31 tomeu the article is better than its title
11:32 SeanDaly this is precisely why I wish to coordinate PR & marketing with OLPC-F and especially OLPC-A
11:32 I have pinged Rodrigo again
11:33 more Sugar, less tech spex
11:34 walterbender Anyway, I'll let Cecilia know that we are working on something for Paraguay...
11:34 lfaraone waves.
11:34 walterbender OK. Can we talk about GSoC?
11:34 tomeu I count on paraguay educa to help other countries work together in sugar
11:34 SeanDaly walterbender:re expedite requests: I fully agree
11:36 hey just heard back from Rodrigo - looks like we will start coordinating!!
11:36 walterbender SeanDaly: great...
11:37 tomeu about gsoc, I'm personally going to focus my time on other contributors such as from downstreams
11:37 walterbender #topic gsoc
11:37 tomeu gsoc students have taken lots of my time in past editions
11:37 and I'm not sure it was really worth it, compared to other contributors
11:37 mchua Do we know what sorts of things we'd want gsoc students to take on this summer? Is this the best use of our time?
11:37 cjb tomeu: yeah, I see where you're coming from
11:37 walterbender tomeu: I agree that that may be the best use of your time, but gsoc is useful in many ways, IMHO
11:38 tomeu walterbender: sure, not saying otherwise
11:38 walterbender Some people really enjoy mentoring students
11:38 mchua my question is "who's going to step up to run this?"
11:38 cjb well, one nice thing about gsoc is that it forces us to write down stuff we'd like other people to help with
11:38 walterbender and some students, even if their project is not viable, go on to be community members
11:38 cjb: yes... it enforces a certain discipline
11:39 and it is a right of passage for a FOSS project
11:39 it keeps us in the broader community eye
11:39 tomeu maybe activities would be more appropriate for gsoc?
11:39 CanoeBerry Apologies for the very late arrival.
11:39 walterbender for example, just this morning, GeoGebra was talk about getting involved with us on GSoC...
11:39 hi Adam
11:39 CanoeBerry Ciao Todos
11:39 walterbender Adam: need a backlog?
11:40 CanoeBerry I'm OK, reading..
11:40 walterbender But we should be careful about burning up key resources...
11:40 dogi http://me.etin.gs/sugar-meetin[…]0100205_1105.html
11:40 walterbender I think we tied to tackle projects with too large of a scope last year...
11:40 tomeu walterbender: +1
11:41 also, there's a very wide range of experience and capabilities in students
11:41 walterbender but the first step is to decide (1) do we apply this year and (2) is yes, who is the team?
11:41 tomeu we should match better projects with individuals
11:41 mchua walterbender: I think the questions need to be the other way around.
11:41 cjb :)
11:42 walterbender Well, I asked the questions together for a purpose...
11:42 tomeu yeah, I guess nobody is opposed to gsoc in principle?
11:42 cjb I'd like to see us apply but have frankly no intention of helping.  sorry.  :)
11:42 mchua (1) who, if anyone, is interested in leading the sl gsoc charge this year? (2) do we feel comfortable selecting a team/lead from those who volunteered and handing this responsibility to them, pretty much completely?
11:42 has no objections to applying, but has no further hands to lend for it this summer.
11:42 walterbender I so far have heard from one person... Tim McNamara
11:43 cjb perhaps we should post to iaep asking for volunteers to lead?
11:43 there was Jameson (and mchua) last year
11:43 walterbender cjb: I've asked twice, both times buried on the Sugar Digest
11:43 cjb ah, sorry.
11:43 mchua cleaning up a stub page for that right now, will be ready in ~5m
11:43 cjb I do read them :-)
11:43 mchua Yeah, I saw the mentions but they may have been lost inline for most readers.
11:44 walterbender cjb: well, it is obvious that I haven't done a good job getting the word out...
11:44 I'll work with Tim and try to pull in some more help.
11:45 mchua: the materials we prepared last year should mostly be relevant for this year.
11:45 mchua nods.
11:45 walterbender #action Walter to be more aggressive about assembling a team for GSoC
11:46 Any other suggestions re this topic?
11:47 OK. well, I have my action item.
11:48 The final topic on today's agenda is to review our goals for 2010.
11:48 #topic Goals for 2010
11:48 I wrote a first draft for comment...
11:48 looks for the URL
11:48 CanoeBerry Side Comment about Tim McNamara..
11:48 He's 100% awesome and helping me lead QA back on track.
11:49 Where we can help.
11:49 The Sri Lankan team is very serious.
11:49 tomeu CanoeBerry: hmm, maybe next development team meeting could be about QA?
11:49 walterbender http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]#Goals_for_2010_2
11:49 tomeu CanoeBerry: we have so much to improve there...
11:49 CanoeBerry tomeu: might take us 2+ weeks to get organized, but yes.
11:49 walterbender CanoeBerry: thanks... that is great feedback.
11:50 mchua walterbender: re gsoc, how does shouting-out http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code sound?
11:50 tomeu CanoeBerry: ok, I'm very interested, please ping me when you have more news
11:50 mchua CanoeBerry: in fact, please ping iaep
11:50 CanoeBerry Will do.
11:50 tomeu reads proposed goals
11:50 mchua walterbender: (note that I set an arbitrary date of feb 17 for announcing interest deadline, so we can pick a coordinator 2 meetings from now)
11:50 walterbender re goals, they are all pretty generic and not easy to measure...
11:51 tomeu is it REL or RHEL?
11:51 cjb it's RHEL
11:51 pronounced our-hell :)
11:51 tomeu :D
11:52 walterbender regardless of the spelling, that will be an up-hill battle...
11:52 not technically, but in terms of the RHEL goals...
11:52 mchua What can be done to make it easier?
11:52 cjb yes, similar to the three-year-old battles at OLPC about what the software base would be
11:52 we rejected RHEL then because we knew we needed newer software than it provides
11:52 so I don't really understand why we think we might be a good idea now :)
11:52 mchua was curious about that one too.
11:53 tomeu walterbender: not sure how well it is covered by your proposal, but I planned to keep focusing on bringing more downstream people into sugar development: olpc deployments, igalia, davidfarning's initiative, etc
11:53 I think we care specially because of LTSP deployments in schools?
11:53 walterbender tomeu: please add some new langauge
11:53 tomeu walterbender: will do
11:54 mchua wrote up her homework here:
11:54 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]:Mchua/Goals_2010
11:54 tomeu walterbender: do we need to do anything special regarding RHEL?
11:54 it is similar to how olpc decides that their next release will be f11 with 0.84
11:54 mchua tomeu: "package things for EPEL," aiui.
11:54 walterbender cjb: re RHEL... It seems to me that offering a distro-based solution with an expected lifetime measured in multiple years would be desirable for our deployments.
11:55 tomeu mchua: won't they sync packages from the corresponding fedora version?
11:55 walterbender cjb: 3-years ago, Sugar wasn't ready... but I can anticipate being there soon... but maybe we are still 1 year too soon.
11:55 SeanDaly actually, our six-month schedule means we will always be ahead of deployments; yet, it's a good rhythm for improving quickly
11:56 a very stable Sugar would guarantee our success
11:56 mchua tomeu: (again, aiui) what we'd want to do is have Sugar stuff packaged in the EPEL (extra packages for enterprise linux) repositories, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL
11:56 tomeu walterbender: maybe we shouldn't worry too much about this RHEL and rather worry about the next one
11:56 cjb walterbender: oh, you're talking about a *future* RHEL release?
11:56 SeanDaly while an unstable Sugar will need even better marketing :D :D
11:56 mchua tomeu: and that usually means "take the Fedora package, rebuild it against RHEL"
11:56 tomeu cjb: yup
11:56 cjb ahh
11:56 when is that scheduled for?
11:56 tomeu mchua: right, so no big deal, right?
11:56 mchua tomeu: right, no big deal at all.
11:56 cjb it's normally only once every 3-4 years, right?
11:56 walterbender tomeu: I agree. But I think it is important to set as a goal Sugar on a stable platform... maybe for 2011?
11:56 mchua tomeu: I mean, we might want to do some testing, don't know if we have the resources for that sort of QA to be done right
11:57 tomeu walterbender: sounds good to discuss how would sugar 1.0 would look like
11:57 CanoeBerry INVITE: Will anybody here be joining Gerald Ardito & I our OLPC/Sugar/Haiti Creole Dinner Saturday NYC 5:30?  Co-hosted with NYC's Haiti Crisis Camp.  Please let me know!
11:57 http://kombitrestaurant.com
11:58 tomeu I can see RHEL being a big deal for us if whatever version we had in the corresponding fedora release wasn't what we wanted in a stable distro
11:58 SeanDaly might make more sense to imagine a major deployment as being the v1.0
11:58 mchua cjb: There's no "when will the next RHEL" release date out yet but it's starting to get close to that time in the (multi-year) cycle
11:58 CanoeBerry "Kombit" is the Creole word for volunteerism/collaboration..
11:58 walterbender tomeu: maybe if we have a clean picture of Sugar 1.0, then we can be more attractive to the RHELs of the world.
11:58 SeanDaly with QA resources to match
11:58 tomeu but maybe we don't need to worry so much right now
11:58 walterbender: makes sense
11:58 SeanDaly: yeah, very important
11:58 cjb mchua: ok.  but we don't have to do anything special for it other than getting our packages working well in Fedora, I'm guessing
11:58 walterbender so I will take it off the list of goals for 2010
11:58 cjb because a RHEL release is based on a Fedora release
11:59 SeanDaly another way to look at it is working back from OEM viewpoint
11:59 mchua cjb: Yeah, I see "have packages working well in Fedora" as "and now it's easy to get them working in RHEL!" prerequisites when we're ready for that next step.
11:59 SeanDaly what distro(s) referenced?
11:59 cjb walterbender: I think it's okay for it to be a goal; working with the *next* RHEL is going to be very easy (zero effort), and working with the current RHEL would be almost impossibly hard.
11:59 SeanDaly How does Sugar run on that distro?
11:59 mchua cjb: and the step after that is "now that they're packaged (in EPEL) for RHEL, let's QA the living daylights out of it" which is an open question re: resources imo.
11:59 ...but comes along much later. perhaps even next year.
12:00 walterbender new wording: Define Sugar 1.0 so that we can begin partnering with long-term stable distros, such as RHEL
12:00 tomeu cjb: not impossible for alsroot ;)
12:00 SeanDaly to me it's more an event-triggered thing that a planned schedule thing... I mean, if Intel wanted to reference Sugar for the CMPC in 2010 on Mandriva, that would seem to me to become a priority, no?
12:01 tomeu (he retro-fitted sugar in quite old mandriva and ubuntu derivatives)
12:01 walterbender tomeu: maybe a goal should be to clone alsroot :)
12:01 mchua walterbender: what's involved in "defining sugar 1.0"? (for those curious readers looking in for the first time with little context on the day-to-day of SL)
12:01 tomeu heh
12:02 cjb looks like we have 2 mins, folks
12:02 anything else?
12:02 lfaraone, walterbender: did the WMF servers arrive?
12:02 walterbender mchua: well, we need to talk about where we think we'll be at 1.0 in more concrete terms...
12:02 tomeu mchua: stating what we want sugar 1.0 look like?
12:02 walterbender lfaraone: not yet
12:02 lfaraone cjb: not afaict. school is closed today, so I can't follow up with Jeff at the career center.
12:02 tomeu features, stability, API, etc
12:02 walterbender I have nothing else on the agenda...
12:02 cjb lfaraone: righto, thanks
12:03 lfaraone cjb: they were supposed to ship wed, so we're looking at mon/tues
12:03 SeanDaly I see 2 key goals for SL in 2010:
12:03 1) fundraising
12:03 2) a website with the Sugar interface so anyone can try online
12:03 walterbender could we take it as an action for everyone to review the goals list and make changes?
12:03 tomeu walterbender: +1
12:03 walterbender SeanDaly: have you seen the Paraguay site?
12:04 SeanDaly yes, I did... an excellent idea
12:04 CanoeBerry 3) less lawyers (but we all still love Andriani Ferti & the many lawyers helping us bravely)
12:04 walterbender SeanDaly: it is done in Flash, but I bet I could do it in straight CSS
12:04 SeanDaly we have an install barrier and an unfamiliarity barrier... website solves both, generates enough interest for download
12:05 walterbender #action Everyone will review the Goals for 2010 for next time.
12:05 mchua walterbender: more concrete terms for what, though? design, technical specs, deployability, features, activities, mechanisms-of-participation... ? what's the scope?
12:05 walterbender OK... time is about up.
12:05 I am traveling next week and may or may not be able to get on line. Shall we plan to meet again in two weeks?
12:05 mchua worksforme.
12:05 SeanDaly walterbender: in CSS and running on the iPad :D
12:05 CanoeBerry +1
12:05 walterbender that would give cjb and SeanDaly more time.
12:05 SeanDaly true
12:06 cjb ok
12:06 walterbender OK. Next meeting on the 19th.
12:06 cjb SeanDaly, walterbender: do you mind if I mail Karen about automatic trademarks?
12:06 mchua I wrote up my goals stuff at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]:Mchua/Goals_2010, so I'll assume I've done my homework in advance already unless otherwise notified. ;)
12:06 walterbender cjb: by all means, please contact her
12:06 cjb just to see whether she has any preference on how enforceable they are
12:06 thanks
12:06 walterbender OK.
12:06 CanoeBerry ANNC: deployment presentation this Sunday 12 Noon @ OLPC by Vietnam Volunteer Nancie Severs.
12:06 SeanDaly cjb: you mean if they can possibly work ;-) sure
12:06 mchua has a SoaS pilot to start up, will be mildly hosed next week.
12:06 walterbender thanks everyone.
12:06 cjb SeanDaly: yeah :)
12:06 CanoeBerry Join in person or by phone if you can!!!
12:06 walterbender #endmeeting

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