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#sugar-meeting, 2010-01-30

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Time Nick Message
10:38 erikos #TOPIC Design meeting (3)
10:38 #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Team/0.88_Meeting
10:38 benzea: wan't to participate in the design meeting, too?
10:38 forgot to send out a reminder to the ml :/
10:39 christianmarcsch hi everyone
10:39 erikos christianmarcsch: hey :)
10:39 christianmarcsch i can probably only join for a short time
10:39 erikos christianmarcsch: that is fine
10:39 christianmarcsch: I have reserved max an hour today
10:39 christianmarcsch ok
10:39 i'll try and stay as long as i can
10:39 erikos perfect
10:39 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Team/0.88_Meeting
10:40 I have updated our page and a few things have been happening over the week
10:40 christianmarcsch how is the test build shaping up?
10:40 erikos christianmarcsch: still has to be done
10:40 christianmarcsch ah ok
10:41 the thumbs view is looking good
10:41 benzea erikos: thought I would take a look :-)
10:42 erikos benzea: nice ;p
10:42 christianmarcsch: while you mentioned it, let's talk about that one first
10:42 christianmarcsch sounds great
10:42 erikos alsroot: you had some questions about it
10:43 christianmarcsch: and it is real code output you are looking at, not a mockup ;p
10:43 christianmarcsch: aleksey has been coding it up
10:43 christianmarcsch ah, right
10:43 alsroot http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Meeting#Drag_icon http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]g#Hover_over_mode
10:43 christianmarcsch awesome
10:44 so, should we start with the object chooser, or the journal?
10:44 alsroot needs both
10:44 erikos christianmarcsch: maybe the Journal
10:44 ;D
10:44 christianmarcsch sure
10:44 what does the triangle in the top right represent?
10:45 walterbender wondered the same thing
10:45 alsroot just an example icon, it should be real icon later
10:45 christianmarcsch ok, just wondering
10:45 we had an icon for thumbs view
10:45 erikos alsroot: so we need an icon to represent the thumbs view, correct?
10:45 christianmarcsch that looks like a grid
10:45 do you have access to it?
10:45 alsroot erikos: we had it, I just couldn't find it
10:46 christianmarcsch ok
10:46 erikos alsroot: oh ok
10:46 christianmarcsch hang on a second while i look for the design source file
10:46 so, the checkboxes won't make it in for this build, right?
10:46 eben I don't think a hover effect is needed there, by the way.
10:47 alsroot just thought that since 0.84- had it..
10:47 christianmarcsch eben: how do we select an item then? by simply clicking on it? is there any feedback?
10:47 eben what does it represent, though?
10:48 Different parts do different things.
10:48 christianmarcsch eben: just as a refresher... ;)
10:48 eben Clicking the image itself resumes
10:48 alsroot eben: nope, it will select object for activity
10:48 eben clicking the star/details buttons of course effects those actions
10:48 christianmarcsch that's the standard behavior everywhere in the UI, so we should adhere to it here as well
10:48 eben alsroot: What do you mean?
10:49 Oh, that's the object chooser...I thought that was the Journal. Actually, we had a separate treatment of the grid in the chooser, I think.
10:49 looks for mockups
10:49 christianmarcsch so, comparing to the designs we put together earlier, the details arrow was underneath the label, and there was a checkbox above the star, for every thumbnail
10:50 eben: want me to forward it to you?
10:50 eben I've got it.
10:51 alsroot christianmarcsch: about checkboxes, looks like its postponed for 0.90 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ns_in_the_Journal
10:51 christianmarcsch alsroot: ok, thanks. just wondering
10:51 erikos yup, we move it to 0.90
10:52 christianmarcsch well, the view looks good
10:52 just one thing:
10:52 i wonder if we should make images full bleed and crop the edges, rather than scaling them to the size of the bounding box?
10:52 eben The grid looks a bit tight; we had  4 columns in the mockups.
10:52 benzea has the feeling he was away for too long to really understand everything ;-)
10:52 christianmarcsch eben: that is true. may look better with four columns
10:53 eben christianmarcsch: I was debating that internally, myself. In reality, this is probably the edge case....activity previews are always 4x3.
10:53 So only images downloaded from elsewhere will be of another aspect ratio.
10:53 christianmarcsch eben: just thinking it might look better if the images were larger and fullbleed
10:53 eben: i see...
10:53 eben christianmarcsch: Yeah, no argument there.
10:54 christianmarcsch well, can we make it four columns? does anything speak against that treatment?
10:54 benzea erikos: is that a GtkIconView?
10:55 eben Part of the reason we chose 4 is because we allowed the text labels to extend beyond the preview just a bit, to prevent excessive wrapping.
10:55 alsroot christianmarcsch: sure, I'll just tune hardcoded thumb size(I use zoom() for sooming them)
10:55 christianmarcsch yes, and also it makes for larger image previews
10:55 eben (In particular, we didn't want the date to wrap, is can be seen in the screenshot)
10:55 christianmarcsch alsroot: that sounds great
10:55 eben s/is/as
10:56 christianmarcsch eben: agree re: the dates
10:56 and what do people think about making the images fullbleed inside the boxes, and removing the box borders?
10:56 alsroot will remove wrapping for dates
10:56 christianmarcsch it's an edgecase, as eben points out, but could still make a difference visually
10:57 alsroot christianmarcsch: btw we have also activity icons for thumbless objects, should we use broders for them
10:57 garycmartin christianmarcsch: fullbleed sounds good to me
10:57 christianmarcsch alsroot: yes, in that case we should continue to use borders
10:57 eben christianmarcsch: Keep the borders in either case; but I could go either way on full bleed. It would look nicer.
10:58 christianmarcsch eben: ok, sure. i suppose if you have an image with a white bg the border would still help
10:58 eben Borders are needed in case of light/white images...they are light enough that they shouldn't be noticeable on darker ones
10:58 christianmarcsch eben: agreed
10:58 garycmartin eben: +1 on four columns
10:59 alsroot btw, should we restrict grid size: to numeber of cells or to minimal thumb sizes
10:59 ..4x4 for huge monitor will look ugly
10:59 christianmarcsch alsroot: yes, that makes sense
10:59 we were designing for 1200 i believe
10:59 alsroot christianmarcsch: having ugly look :)
11:00 ?
11:00 christianmarcsch the screen res
11:00 but if you have a larger screen, you could add extra columns
11:00 wait, i can give you the dimensions
11:00 alsroot so, min thumb sizes but tune it to have 4 cols for XO res?
11:01 christianmarcsch alsroot: i'd say so, yes
11:01 alsroot written it down
11:01 christianmarcsch so, i checked and we had used 160x120px for the thumbs
11:02 let's optimize for 1200px width (4 cols), but beyond that we can add additional columns keeping the same column spacing and thumb size
11:02 eben right
11:02 alsroot christianmarcsch: will do
11:02 christianmarcsch by the way: have we made any progress on tagging in journal?
11:02 i was just looking back through the mocks we did last august
11:02 alsroot christianmarcsch: also moved to 0.90
11:02 christianmarcsch o
11:03 k
11:03 ;)
11:03 eben I'm going to provide a bounty to anyone who can fix the darn popup selector sizes.
11:03 erikos_ eben: which sizes?
11:03 christianmarcsch eben: +1
11:03 eben They've been a thorn in my size for what, 4 years now? :)
11:04 The popup selectors....they should match the height of the search entry.
11:04 erikos_ eben: ohhhh, I see them now
11:04 christianmarcsch eben: i'll chip in to that bounty... it would be great to fix them
11:04 erikos_ looks at benzea
11:05 benzea: that is something we should do in the theme, or?
11:05 benzea huh?
11:05 erikos_ benzea: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Hover-over.png
11:05 benzea: the popup selector
11:05 benzea: or drop-down menu
11:06 benzea: should have the same height, then the gtk.entry
11:06 benzea ok, what is the "popup selector"?
11:06 erikos_ benzea: combobox
11:06 benzea ahh
11:07 huh, they are supposed to be the same size?
11:07 eben Sorry, we designers don't know our terminology. We just want those things to be 45px tall. :)
11:07 benzea: refer to any mockup. ;) It's the sore thumb that differentiates all mockups from all screenshots. Heh.
11:07 benzea I mean, one is a button, so 65px, and the other should be 45px, iirc
11:07 eben benzea: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Journal-10.jpeg
11:08 christianmarcsch because i have to leave soon, can we quickly talk about the color selector?
11:09 erikos_ sure
11:09 alsroot thought it was a feature
11:09 eben Sorry, I didn't mean to derail us.
11:09 erikos_ http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ed_Color_Selector
11:09 christianmarcsch eben: maybe you can pick it up again after the color selector?
11:09 benzea eben: you are evil!
11:09 christianmarcsch eben: it would be great to fix the menus ;)
11:10 erikos_ aleksey and walter have been coding the options listed in the mockups
11:10 christianmarcsch so, i think both actually work well
11:10 benzea ok, not sure right now; getting all the be the "correct" height from the theme is really evil
11:10 and based on assumptions about the font size in the theme
11:10 christianmarcsch my personal preference might be the grid, but i can see arguments for the more exploratory first option as well
11:10 walterbender I have a slight problem with both the grid and the version with just stroke and just fill
11:10 erikos_ christianmarcsch: I showed the first ones to my wife and she found them very confusing :/
11:11 benzea erikos_: however, in this case you also have the issue that comboboxes scale up automatically to fill the space, while entries don't
11:11 christianmarcsch erikos: hmm, yes--they require a bit more engagement
11:11 walterbender the grid, unsorted, gives the impression of many choices, but it is hard to navigate.
11:11 erikos_ benzea: let's keep it on in a second
11:11 walterbender we should have an order to the colors if we use a grid
11:11 christianmarcsch walterbender: agreed
11:11 the grid generally seems more straightforward
11:11 walterbender the stroke-only/fill-only buttons lose context
11:11 christianmarcsch especially if the colors were ordered
11:11 eben walterbender: agreed
11:12 christianmarcsch i agree with that, too
11:12 the first option looks better, of the two
11:12 walterbender I could work with alsroot on a new order to the color list if we go that route.
11:12 erikos_ yeah, if we go with the plus, i like the first one much more
11:12 christianmarcsch for the grid: could we expand it over the full width of the screen?
11:12 erikos_ (as well found out by in-house testing :)
11:13 eben I know we've been encouraging exploration, but I just want to toss out the idea again that we could just have a "hue slider" for both stroke and fill, stacked next to the XO.
11:13 alsroot christianmarcsch: will require recoding, current code scheme is stuck to widget and having dull sized grid will require using another shceme
11:13 christianmarcsch alsroot: ok
11:13 eben Each could be "labeled" with an image of just the stroke, or just the fill, and sliding could move through the spectrum.
11:13 christianmarcsch eben: i do rather like the idea of a stroke and fill slider...
11:14 though i still think i would lean towards the grid
11:14 maybe i just like grids ;)
11:14 eben I think it would be exploratory enough, and quite clear to play with, especially since the feedback would be so immediate.
11:14 erikos_ eben: I think the slider is a good option
11:14 eben I just fear that the XO army detracts from the central XO.
11:15 I liked how this screen was an immediate reflection of "me" before. My name. My XO. Etc.
11:16 christianmarcsch does the plus feel more as a reflection of "me"? i think it might
11:16 eben Also, this is a bit philosophical, but then it becomes about "changing my color" instead of "becoming someone else"
11:16 alsroot eben: but grid is more for "becoming someone else"
11:17 christianmarcsch i think that is eben's point
11:17 eben Right, that's my point. The sliders would just be adjusting me.
11:17 erikos_ eben: one issue with the slider is fine tuning
11:17 christianmarcsch the army of XOs though is somehow appealing
11:18 erikos_ eben: once you are beyond your choice, it might be difficult to get back
11:18 christianmarcsch it makes the choice easy to make, by selecting one of many options
11:18 eben how many colors do we have for each stroke/fill?
11:18 erikos_ looks at walter
11:18 christianmarcsch it's very inviting to be able to choose from a large array of objects
11:18 eben erikos_: Sure, but if they are in hue order, going past it leaves you still very close.
11:18 garycmartin Is the new colour selector (what ever design is settled on) just for the control panel, not for the currently nice and simple first boot?
11:19 erikos_ garycmartin: first boot, too
11:19 garycmartin: if we agree that we want to keep the option there
11:19 eben It would only be a problem if there are too many colors to land on with a child's motor skills.
11:19 walterbender we have about 170 color combos as I recall
11:19 eben OK, so that's like 13 colors each.
11:19 alsroot eben: 180 colors at all, and 27/21 for parts
11:20 eben So a slider with 13 steps isn't too bad.
11:20 walterbender maybe the panel is for first boot and the next/prev is for the control panel ?
11:20 garycmartin erikos_: +1 on keeping colour picker at first boot, but I worry this is all getting to featureitus and complex (sliders, mouse drag and hold skills etc).
11:20 christianmarcsch sorry everyone--i'm going to have to leave
11:21 i'll be on email later, in case there is anything i can help with...
11:21 erikos_ christianmarcsch: enjoy your rest of the wekend
11:21 christianmarcsch thanks--you too!
11:21 eben garycmartin: good point. OK, another thought...compromise between grid/slider.
11:22 What if we have two rows of "swatches"....one for stroke, and one for fill...instead of a slider. Make the swatches just the "O" part of the "XO"....so that we don't have lots of XOs on screen at once.
11:22 Then you can see the target, click (not drag!), and you still retain the separation between stroke/fill (which I'm convinced kids can figure out), and you still retain the hue ordering which is so logical in this context, but lost in the grid.
11:23 walterbender we could have a row of XOs with just the current stroke variations from the current fill and just the current fill variations from the current stroke
11:23 eben (Well, you could have it in the grid, too, but in the square of the space)
11:23 walterbender it makes it an order n instead of order n^2 problem
11:23 eben walterbender: That's exactly what I'm suggesting, actually, only I'm suggesting making them circular swatches instead.
11:24 walterbender eben: like I did for the xoman activity? but I think the loss of visual context is a problem
11:24 eben Well, two rows. One for stroke variations and one for fill variations.
11:24 walterbender this is essentially how the xo-man activity is organized...
11:24 circles.
11:25 but I think a row above and below the big XO would work well
11:25 it would be about 6-8 in each
11:27 eben I would put both below, so they are side by side, so visualizing the differences between the rows is easier.
11:27 erikos_ this sounds as we would not really be set for the color selctor feature design :/
11:28 how can we move forward on this one?
11:29 a) do we think we need more time and move it out to the next release
11:29 eben Or, we could embed the XOeditor activity in there. We had mockups of that before.
11:29 garycmartin was just playing with xoeditor
11:29 eben That layout is really clean, actually.
11:29 I've always liked the color associations in that layout.
11:29 erikos_ b) have a design we are sure that would be an enhancement
11:29 walterbender well, I wrote that in java script...
11:30 erikos_ for context: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/XoEditor
11:30 #Link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/XoEditor
11:30 alsroot if everyone agree w/ having two rows design it could be implemented in mockup today
11:31 walterbender erikos_: can I suggest we just go with the simple solution in hand for 0.88 and revisit for 0.90?
11:31 alsroot and we can see if it works fine
11:31 walterbender alsroot: +1
11:31 erikos_ walterbender: which is the simple solution?
11:31 alsroot: two rows design? what eben suggested, you mean?
11:31 walterbender erikos: the +
11:32 alsroot erikos_: yup
11:32 eben that would be fine with me.
11:32 walterbender but the two rows (=) if alsroot has time.
11:32 alsroot is sure he has
11:32 erikos_ ok, I agree that the plus is an enhancement over what we have at the moment
11:32 alsroot: :)
11:33 ok, let's do it then
11:33 alsroot I'll try to install xvidcap and will post video to ml
11:33 erikos_ alsroot: you can code the mockup and mail a screenshot
11:33 alsroot: even better ;p
11:33 and if not, we have the plus code already
11:33 nice!
11:34 wants to note that he likes the http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/XoEditor design, too!
11:34 ok, we have a few action items
11:34 some icons we need
11:34 * Font configuration
11:34 * 3G Support
11:35 walterbender is looking forward to accessing the default font size for his activities :)
11:35 erikos_ * (Thumbs view)
11:35 garycmartin: eben you both did work on the 3G one, is that available now?
11:35 alsroot: did christian find the thumbs-view one?
11:35 eben We just need a decision on which to use (I didn't see yours, Gary)
11:35 I have the grid icon as well.
11:36 alsroot erikos_: icon you mean?
11:36 erikos_ eben: awesome, can you send it to alsroot ?
11:36 garycmartin erikos_: sorry, my GSM icon version slipped through the cracks again this week, I'll get it posted to the list for comparsion with Ebens phone version.
11:36 eben I can export all 3 of those if the 3G and Font ones in the mockups I sent earlier are liked.
11:36 erikos_ garycmartin: perfect!
11:36 eben: I did not see the font mockup
11:37 eben: I guess, you sent it to yevlempy only?
11:37 garycmartin will do it after meeting today.
11:37 erikos_ garycmartin: :D
11:37 eben It's sent in the thread. Oh, was that a private thread? I didn't think it was.
11:38 It was. Oops. I'll respond back to the list.
11:38 garycmartin :-)
11:38 erikos_ eben: nice, thanks
11:38 ok, what else
11:38 eben: we had some issues with the 3G behavior - feedback for the user
11:38 garycmartin: eben did you come to a conclusion what to do for 0.88?
11:39 eben I saw that. I didn't have much new to bring to the table apart from what was said.
11:39 I think there were a few good ideas there that would work.
11:40 erikos_ ok, maybe we can follow up then on this thread and decide what can be done
11:40 garycmartin erikos_: no conclusions yet I think.
11:41 eben I have some comments on the objects chooser, if anyone has time to hear them. Or should that wait until next week?
11:41 erikos_ eben: you can discuss with aleksey
11:41 eben: I have to leave now
11:42 garycmartin: if you have a running sugar-jhbuild
11:42 garycmartin yep
11:42 alsroot eben: sure
11:42 erikos_ garycmartin: I will look at thumbs tomorrow
11:42 garycmartin: maybe you can check out alekseys branch, too
11:42 alsroot eben: I mean right now
11:42 erikos_ garycmartin: and check out the workflow
11:43 needs to run
11:43 thanks everyone for joining in
11:43 and the other items we will discuss offline
11:43 #endmeeting
11:43 #stopmeeting
11:44 hmm ;p
11:44 and eben and aleksey can keep on of course ;p
11:44 garycmartin erikos_: OK, catch you later.
11:44 erikos #endmeeting

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