Time |
Nick |
Message |
10:38 |
erikos |
#TOPIC Design meeting (3) |
10:38 |
|
#LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Team/0.88_Meeting |
10:38 |
|
benzea: wan't to participate in the design meeting, too? |
10:38 |
|
forgot to send out a reminder to the ml :/ |
10:39 |
christianmarcsch |
hi everyone |
10:39 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: hey :) |
10:39 |
christianmarcsch |
i can probably only join for a short time |
10:39 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: that is fine |
10:39 |
|
christianmarcsch: I have reserved max an hour today |
10:39 |
christianmarcsch |
ok |
10:39 |
|
i'll try and stay as long as i can |
10:39 |
erikos |
perfect |
10:39 |
|
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Team/0.88_Meeting |
10:40 |
|
I have updated our page and a few things have been happening over the week |
10:40 |
christianmarcsch |
how is the test build shaping up? |
10:40 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: still has to be done |
10:40 |
christianmarcsch |
ah ok |
10:41 |
|
the thumbs view is looking good |
10:41 |
benzea |
erikos: thought I would take a look :-) |
10:42 |
erikos |
benzea: nice ;p |
10:42 |
|
christianmarcsch: while you mentioned it, let's talk about that one first |
10:42 |
christianmarcsch |
sounds great |
10:42 |
erikos |
alsroot: you had some questions about it |
10:43 |
|
christianmarcsch: and it is real code output you are looking at, not a mockup ;p |
10:43 |
|
christianmarcsch: aleksey has been coding it up |
10:43 |
christianmarcsch |
ah, right |
10:43 |
alsroot |
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Meeting#Drag_icon http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]g#Hover_over_mode |
10:43 |
christianmarcsch |
awesome |
10:44 |
|
so, should we start with the object chooser, or the journal? |
10:44 |
alsroot |
needs both |
10:44 |
erikos |
christianmarcsch: maybe the Journal |
10:44 |
|
;D |
10:44 |
christianmarcsch |
sure |
10:44 |
|
what does the triangle in the top right represent? |
10:45 |
walterbender |
wondered the same thing |
10:45 |
alsroot |
just an example icon, it should be real icon later |
10:45 |
christianmarcsch |
ok, just wondering |
10:45 |
|
we had an icon for thumbs view |
10:45 |
erikos |
alsroot: so we need an icon to represent the thumbs view, correct? |
10:45 |
christianmarcsch |
that looks like a grid |
10:45 |
|
do you have access to it? |
10:45 |
alsroot |
erikos: we had it, I just couldn't find it |
10:46 |
christianmarcsch |
ok |
10:46 |
erikos |
alsroot: oh ok |
10:46 |
christianmarcsch |
hang on a second while i look for the design source file |
10:46 |
|
so, the checkboxes won't make it in for this build, right? |
10:46 |
eben |
I don't think a hover effect is needed there, by the way. |
10:47 |
alsroot |
just thought that since 0.84- had it.. |
10:47 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: how do we select an item then? by simply clicking on it? is there any feedback? |
10:47 |
eben |
what does it represent, though? |
10:48 |
|
Different parts do different things. |
10:48 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: just as a refresher... ;) |
10:48 |
eben |
Clicking the image itself resumes |
10:48 |
alsroot |
eben: nope, it will select object for activity |
10:48 |
eben |
clicking the star/details buttons of course effects those actions |
10:48 |
christianmarcsch |
that's the standard behavior everywhere in the UI, so we should adhere to it here as well |
10:48 |
eben |
alsroot: What do you mean? |
10:49 |
|
Oh, that's the object chooser...I thought that was the Journal. Actually, we had a separate treatment of the grid in the chooser, I think. |
10:49 |
|
looks for mockups |
10:49 |
christianmarcsch |
so, comparing to the designs we put together earlier, the details arrow was underneath the label, and there was a checkbox above the star, for every thumbnail |
10:50 |
|
eben: want me to forward it to you? |
10:50 |
eben |
I've got it. |
10:51 |
alsroot |
christianmarcsch: about checkboxes, looks like its postponed for 0.90 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ns_in_the_Journal |
10:51 |
christianmarcsch |
alsroot: ok, thanks. just wondering |
10:51 |
erikos |
yup, we move it to 0.90 |
10:52 |
christianmarcsch |
well, the view looks good |
10:52 |
|
just one thing: |
10:52 |
|
i wonder if we should make images full bleed and crop the edges, rather than scaling them to the size of the bounding box? |
10:52 |
eben |
The grid looks a bit tight; we had 4 columns in the mockups. |
10:52 |
benzea |
has the feeling he was away for too long to really understand everything ;-) |
10:52 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: that is true. may look better with four columns |
10:53 |
eben |
christianmarcsch: I was debating that internally, myself. In reality, this is probably the edge case....activity previews are always 4x3. |
10:53 |
|
So only images downloaded from elsewhere will be of another aspect ratio. |
10:53 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: just thinking it might look better if the images were larger and fullbleed |
10:53 |
|
eben: i see... |
10:53 |
eben |
christianmarcsch: Yeah, no argument there. |
10:54 |
christianmarcsch |
well, can we make it four columns? does anything speak against that treatment? |
10:54 |
benzea |
erikos: is that a GtkIconView? |
10:55 |
eben |
Part of the reason we chose 4 is because we allowed the text labels to extend beyond the preview just a bit, to prevent excessive wrapping. |
10:55 |
alsroot |
christianmarcsch: sure, I'll just tune hardcoded thumb size(I use zoom() for sooming them) |
10:55 |
christianmarcsch |
yes, and also it makes for larger image previews |
10:55 |
eben |
(In particular, we didn't want the date to wrap, is can be seen in the screenshot) |
10:55 |
christianmarcsch |
alsroot: that sounds great |
10:55 |
eben |
s/is/as |
10:56 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: agree re: the dates |
10:56 |
|
and what do people think about making the images fullbleed inside the boxes, and removing the box borders? |
10:56 |
alsroot |
will remove wrapping for dates |
10:56 |
christianmarcsch |
it's an edgecase, as eben points out, but could still make a difference visually |
10:57 |
alsroot |
christianmarcsch: btw we have also activity icons for thumbless objects, should we use broders for them |
10:57 |
garycmartin |
christianmarcsch: fullbleed sounds good to me |
10:57 |
christianmarcsch |
alsroot: yes, in that case we should continue to use borders |
10:57 |
eben |
christianmarcsch: Keep the borders in either case; but I could go either way on full bleed. It would look nicer. |
10:58 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: ok, sure. i suppose if you have an image with a white bg the border would still help |
10:58 |
eben |
Borders are needed in case of light/white images...they are light enough that they shouldn't be noticeable on darker ones |
10:58 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: agreed |
10:58 |
garycmartin |
eben: +1 on four columns |
10:59 |
alsroot |
btw, should we restrict grid size: to numeber of cells or to minimal thumb sizes |
10:59 |
|
..4x4 for huge monitor will look ugly |
10:59 |
christianmarcsch |
alsroot: yes, that makes sense |
10:59 |
|
we were designing for 1200 i believe |
10:59 |
alsroot |
christianmarcsch: having ugly look :) |
11:00 |
|
? |
11:00 |
christianmarcsch |
the screen res |
11:00 |
|
but if you have a larger screen, you could add extra columns |
11:00 |
|
wait, i can give you the dimensions |
11:00 |
alsroot |
so, min thumb sizes but tune it to have 4 cols for XO res? |
11:01 |
christianmarcsch |
alsroot: i'd say so, yes |
11:01 |
alsroot |
written it down |
11:01 |
christianmarcsch |
so, i checked and we had used 160x120px for the thumbs |
11:02 |
|
let's optimize for 1200px width (4 cols), but beyond that we can add additional columns keeping the same column spacing and thumb size |
11:02 |
eben |
right |
11:02 |
alsroot |
christianmarcsch: will do |
11:02 |
christianmarcsch |
by the way: have we made any progress on tagging in journal? |
11:02 |
|
i was just looking back through the mocks we did last august |
11:02 |
alsroot |
christianmarcsch: also moved to 0.90 |
11:02 |
christianmarcsch |
o |
11:03 |
|
k |
11:03 |
|
;) |
11:03 |
eben |
I'm going to provide a bounty to anyone who can fix the darn popup selector sizes. |
11:03 |
erikos_ |
eben: which sizes? |
11:03 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: +1 |
11:03 |
eben |
They've been a thorn in my size for what, 4 years now? :) |
11:04 |
|
The popup selectors....they should match the height of the search entry. |
11:04 |
erikos_ |
eben: ohhhh, I see them now |
11:04 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: i'll chip in to that bounty... it would be great to fix them |
11:04 |
erikos_ |
looks at benzea |
11:05 |
|
benzea: that is something we should do in the theme, or? |
11:05 |
benzea |
huh? |
11:05 |
erikos_ |
benzea: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Hover-over.png |
11:05 |
|
benzea: the popup selector |
11:05 |
|
benzea: or drop-down menu |
11:06 |
|
benzea: should have the same height, then the gtk.entry |
11:06 |
benzea |
ok, what is the "popup selector"? |
11:06 |
erikos_ |
benzea: combobox |
11:06 |
benzea |
ahh |
11:07 |
|
huh, they are supposed to be the same size? |
11:07 |
eben |
Sorry, we designers don't know our terminology. We just want those things to be 45px tall. :) |
11:07 |
|
benzea: refer to any mockup. ;) It's the sore thumb that differentiates all mockups from all screenshots. Heh. |
11:07 |
benzea |
I mean, one is a button, so 65px, and the other should be 45px, iirc |
11:07 |
eben |
benzea: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Journal-10.jpeg |
11:08 |
christianmarcsch |
because i have to leave soon, can we quickly talk about the color selector? |
11:09 |
erikos_ |
sure |
11:09 |
alsroot |
thought it was a feature |
11:09 |
eben |
Sorry, I didn't mean to derail us. |
11:09 |
erikos_ |
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ed_Color_Selector |
11:09 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: maybe you can pick it up again after the color selector? |
11:09 |
benzea |
eben: you are evil! |
11:09 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: it would be great to fix the menus ;) |
11:10 |
erikos_ |
aleksey and walter have been coding the options listed in the mockups |
11:10 |
christianmarcsch |
so, i think both actually work well |
11:10 |
benzea |
ok, not sure right now; getting all the be the "correct" height from the theme is really evil |
11:10 |
|
and based on assumptions about the font size in the theme |
11:10 |
christianmarcsch |
my personal preference might be the grid, but i can see arguments for the more exploratory first option as well |
11:10 |
walterbender |
I have a slight problem with both the grid and the version with just stroke and just fill |
11:10 |
erikos_ |
christianmarcsch: I showed the first ones to my wife and she found them very confusing :/ |
11:11 |
benzea |
erikos_: however, in this case you also have the issue that comboboxes scale up automatically to fill the space, while entries don't |
11:11 |
christianmarcsch |
erikos: hmm, yes--they require a bit more engagement |
11:11 |
walterbender |
the grid, unsorted, gives the impression of many choices, but it is hard to navigate. |
11:11 |
erikos_ |
benzea: let's keep it on in a second |
11:11 |
walterbender |
we should have an order to the colors if we use a grid |
11:11 |
christianmarcsch |
walterbender: agreed |
11:11 |
|
the grid generally seems more straightforward |
11:11 |
walterbender |
the stroke-only/fill-only buttons lose context |
11:11 |
christianmarcsch |
especially if the colors were ordered |
11:11 |
eben |
walterbender: agreed |
11:12 |
christianmarcsch |
i agree with that, too |
11:12 |
|
the first option looks better, of the two |
11:12 |
walterbender |
I could work with alsroot on a new order to the color list if we go that route. |
11:12 |
erikos_ |
yeah, if we go with the plus, i like the first one much more |
11:12 |
christianmarcsch |
for the grid: could we expand it over the full width of the screen? |
11:12 |
erikos_ |
(as well found out by in-house testing :) |
11:13 |
eben |
I know we've been encouraging exploration, but I just want to toss out the idea again that we could just have a "hue slider" for both stroke and fill, stacked next to the XO. |
11:13 |
alsroot |
christianmarcsch: will require recoding, current code scheme is stuck to widget and having dull sized grid will require using another shceme |
11:13 |
christianmarcsch |
alsroot: ok |
11:13 |
eben |
Each could be "labeled" with an image of just the stroke, or just the fill, and sliding could move through the spectrum. |
11:13 |
christianmarcsch |
eben: i do rather like the idea of a stroke and fill slider... |
11:14 |
|
though i still think i would lean towards the grid |
11:14 |
|
maybe i just like grids ;) |
11:14 |
eben |
I think it would be exploratory enough, and quite clear to play with, especially since the feedback would be so immediate. |
11:14 |
erikos_ |
eben: I think the slider is a good option |
11:14 |
eben |
I just fear that the XO army detracts from the central XO. |
11:15 |
|
I liked how this screen was an immediate reflection of "me" before. My name. My XO. Etc. |
11:16 |
christianmarcsch |
does the plus feel more as a reflection of "me"? i think it might |
11:16 |
eben |
Also, this is a bit philosophical, but then it becomes about "changing my color" instead of "becoming someone else" |
11:16 |
alsroot |
eben: but grid is more for "becoming someone else" |
11:17 |
christianmarcsch |
i think that is eben's point |
11:17 |
eben |
Right, that's my point. The sliders would just be adjusting me. |
11:17 |
erikos_ |
eben: one issue with the slider is fine tuning |
11:17 |
christianmarcsch |
the army of XOs though is somehow appealing |
11:18 |
erikos_ |
eben: once you are beyond your choice, it might be difficult to get back |
11:18 |
christianmarcsch |
it makes the choice easy to make, by selecting one of many options |
11:18 |
eben |
how many colors do we have for each stroke/fill? |
11:18 |
erikos_ |
looks at walter |
11:18 |
christianmarcsch |
it's very inviting to be able to choose from a large array of objects |
11:18 |
eben |
erikos_: Sure, but if they are in hue order, going past it leaves you still very close. |
11:18 |
garycmartin |
Is the new colour selector (what ever design is settled on) just for the control panel, not for the currently nice and simple first boot? |
11:19 |
erikos_ |
garycmartin: first boot, too |
11:19 |
|
garycmartin: if we agree that we want to keep the option there |
11:19 |
eben |
It would only be a problem if there are too many colors to land on with a child's motor skills. |
11:19 |
walterbender |
we have about 170 color combos as I recall |
11:19 |
eben |
OK, so that's like 13 colors each. |
11:19 |
alsroot |
eben: 180 colors at all, and 27/21 for parts |
11:20 |
eben |
So a slider with 13 steps isn't too bad. |
11:20 |
walterbender |
maybe the panel is for first boot and the next/prev is for the control panel ? |
11:20 |
garycmartin |
erikos_: +1 on keeping colour picker at first boot, but I worry this is all getting to featureitus and complex (sliders, mouse drag and hold skills etc). |
11:20 |
christianmarcsch |
sorry everyone--i'm going to have to leave |
11:21 |
|
i'll be on email later, in case there is anything i can help with... |
11:21 |
erikos_ |
christianmarcsch: enjoy your rest of the wekend |
11:21 |
christianmarcsch |
thanks--you too! |
11:21 |
eben |
garycmartin: good point. OK, another thought...compromise between grid/slider. |
11:22 |
|
What if we have two rows of "swatches"....one for stroke, and one for fill...instead of a slider. Make the swatches just the "O" part of the "XO"....so that we don't have lots of XOs on screen at once. |
11:22 |
|
Then you can see the target, click (not drag!), and you still retain the separation between stroke/fill (which I'm convinced kids can figure out), and you still retain the hue ordering which is so logical in this context, but lost in the grid. |
11:23 |
walterbender |
we could have a row of XOs with just the current stroke variations from the current fill and just the current fill variations from the current stroke |
11:23 |
eben |
(Well, you could have it in the grid, too, but in the square of the space) |
11:23 |
walterbender |
it makes it an order n instead of order n^2 problem |
11:23 |
eben |
walterbender: That's exactly what I'm suggesting, actually, only I'm suggesting making them circular swatches instead. |
11:24 |
walterbender |
eben: like I did for the xoman activity? but I think the loss of visual context is a problem |
11:24 |
eben |
Well, two rows. One for stroke variations and one for fill variations. |
11:24 |
walterbender |
this is essentially how the xo-man activity is organized... |
11:24 |
|
circles. |
11:25 |
|
but I think a row above and below the big XO would work well |
11:25 |
|
it would be about 6-8 in each |
11:27 |
eben |
I would put both below, so they are side by side, so visualizing the differences between the rows is easier. |
11:27 |
erikos_ |
this sounds as we would not really be set for the color selctor feature design :/ |
11:28 |
|
how can we move forward on this one? |
11:29 |
|
a) do we think we need more time and move it out to the next release |
11:29 |
eben |
Or, we could embed the XOeditor activity in there. We had mockups of that before. |
11:29 |
garycmartin |
was just playing with xoeditor |
11:29 |
eben |
That layout is really clean, actually. |
11:29 |
|
I've always liked the color associations in that layout. |
11:29 |
erikos_ |
b) have a design we are sure that would be an enhancement |
11:29 |
walterbender |
well, I wrote that in java script... |
11:30 |
erikos_ |
for context: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/XoEditor |
11:30 |
|
#Link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/XoEditor |
11:30 |
alsroot |
if everyone agree w/ having two rows design it could be implemented in mockup today |
11:31 |
walterbender |
erikos_: can I suggest we just go with the simple solution in hand for 0.88 and revisit for 0.90? |
11:31 |
alsroot |
and we can see if it works fine |
11:31 |
walterbender |
alsroot: +1 |
11:31 |
erikos_ |
walterbender: which is the simple solution? |
11:31 |
|
alsroot: two rows design? what eben suggested, you mean? |
11:31 |
walterbender |
erikos: the + |
11:32 |
alsroot |
erikos_: yup |
11:32 |
eben |
that would be fine with me. |
11:32 |
walterbender |
but the two rows (=) if alsroot has time. |
11:32 |
alsroot |
is sure he has |
11:32 |
erikos_ |
ok, I agree that the plus is an enhancement over what we have at the moment |
11:32 |
|
alsroot: :) |
11:33 |
|
ok, let's do it then |
11:33 |
alsroot |
I'll try to install xvidcap and will post video to ml |
11:33 |
erikos_ |
alsroot: you can code the mockup and mail a screenshot |
11:33 |
|
alsroot: even better ;p |
11:33 |
|
and if not, we have the plus code already |
11:33 |
|
nice! |
11:34 |
|
wants to note that he likes the http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/XoEditor design, too! |
11:34 |
|
ok, we have a few action items |
11:34 |
|
some icons we need |
11:34 |
|
* Font configuration |
11:34 |
|
* 3G Support |
11:35 |
walterbender |
is looking forward to accessing the default font size for his activities :) |
11:35 |
erikos_ |
* (Thumbs view) |
11:35 |
|
garycmartin: eben you both did work on the 3G one, is that available now? |
11:35 |
|
alsroot: did christian find the thumbs-view one? |
11:35 |
eben |
We just need a decision on which to use (I didn't see yours, Gary) |
11:35 |
|
I have the grid icon as well. |
11:36 |
alsroot |
erikos_: icon you mean? |
11:36 |
erikos_ |
eben: awesome, can you send it to alsroot ? |
11:36 |
garycmartin |
erikos_: sorry, my GSM icon version slipped through the cracks again this week, I'll get it posted to the list for comparsion with Ebens phone version. |
11:36 |
eben |
I can export all 3 of those if the 3G and Font ones in the mockups I sent earlier are liked. |
11:36 |
erikos_ |
garycmartin: perfect! |
11:36 |
|
eben: I did not see the font mockup |
11:37 |
|
eben: I guess, you sent it to yevlempy only? |
11:37 |
garycmartin |
will do it after meeting today. |
11:37 |
erikos_ |
garycmartin: :D |
11:37 |
eben |
It's sent in the thread. Oh, was that a private thread? I didn't think it was. |
11:38 |
|
It was. Oops. I'll respond back to the list. |
11:38 |
garycmartin |
:-) |
11:38 |
erikos_ |
eben: nice, thanks |
11:38 |
|
ok, what else |
11:38 |
|
eben: we had some issues with the 3G behavior - feedback for the user |
11:38 |
|
garycmartin: eben did you come to a conclusion what to do for 0.88? |
11:39 |
eben |
I saw that. I didn't have much new to bring to the table apart from what was said. |
11:39 |
|
I think there were a few good ideas there that would work. |
11:40 |
erikos_ |
ok, maybe we can follow up then on this thread and decide what can be done |
11:40 |
garycmartin |
erikos_: no conclusions yet I think. |
11:41 |
eben |
I have some comments on the objects chooser, if anyone has time to hear them. Or should that wait until next week? |
11:41 |
erikos_ |
eben: you can discuss with aleksey |
11:41 |
|
eben: I have to leave now |
11:42 |
|
garycmartin: if you have a running sugar-jhbuild |
11:42 |
garycmartin |
yep |
11:42 |
alsroot |
eben: sure |
11:42 |
erikos_ |
garycmartin: I will look at thumbs tomorrow |
11:42 |
|
garycmartin: maybe you can check out alekseys branch, too |
11:42 |
alsroot |
eben: I mean right now |
11:42 |
erikos_ |
garycmartin: and check out the workflow |
11:43 |
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needs to run |
11:43 |
|
thanks everyone for joining in |
11:43 |
|
and the other items we will discuss offline |
11:43 |
|
#endmeeting |
11:43 |
|
#stopmeeting |
11:44 |
|
hmm ;p |
11:44 |
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and eben and aleksey can keep on of course ;p |
11:44 |
garycmartin |
erikos_: OK, catch you later. |
11:44 |
erikos |
#endmeeting |