| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 10:38 | erikos | #TOPIC Design meeting (3) |
| 10:38 | #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Team/0.88_Meeting | |
| 10:38 | benzea: wan't to participate in the design meeting, too? | |
| 10:38 | forgot to send out a reminder to the ml :/ | |
| 10:39 | christianmarcsch | hi everyone |
| 10:39 | erikos | christianmarcsch: hey :) |
| 10:39 | christianmarcsch | i can probably only join for a short time |
| 10:39 | erikos | christianmarcsch: that is fine |
| 10:39 | christianmarcsch: I have reserved max an hour today | |
| 10:39 | christianmarcsch | ok |
| 10:39 | i'll try and stay as long as i can | |
| 10:39 | erikos | perfect |
| 10:39 | http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Team/0.88_Meeting | |
| 10:40 | I have updated our page and a few things have been happening over the week | |
| 10:40 | christianmarcsch | how is the test build shaping up? |
| 10:40 | erikos | christianmarcsch: still has to be done |
| 10:40 | christianmarcsch | ah ok |
| 10:41 | the thumbs view is looking good | |
| 10:41 | benzea | erikos: thought I would take a look :-) |
| 10:42 | erikos | benzea: nice ;p |
| 10:42 | christianmarcsch: while you mentioned it, let's talk about that one first | |
| 10:42 | christianmarcsch | sounds great |
| 10:42 | erikos | alsroot: you had some questions about it |
| 10:43 | christianmarcsch: and it is real code output you are looking at, not a mockup ;p | |
| 10:43 | christianmarcsch: aleksey has been coding it up | |
| 10:43 | christianmarcsch | ah, right |
| 10:43 | alsroot | http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Meeting#Drag_icon http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]g#Hover_over_mode |
| 10:43 | christianmarcsch | awesome |
| 10:44 | so, should we start with the object chooser, or the journal? | |
| 10:44 | alsroot | needs both |
| 10:44 | erikos | christianmarcsch: maybe the Journal |
| 10:44 | ;D | |
| 10:44 | christianmarcsch | sure |
| 10:44 | what does the triangle in the top right represent? | |
| 10:45 | walterbender | wondered the same thing |
| 10:45 | alsroot | just an example icon, it should be real icon later |
| 10:45 | christianmarcsch | ok, just wondering |
| 10:45 | we had an icon for thumbs view | |
| 10:45 | erikos | alsroot: so we need an icon to represent the thumbs view, correct? |
| 10:45 | christianmarcsch | that looks like a grid |
| 10:45 | do you have access to it? | |
| 10:45 | alsroot | erikos: we had it, I just couldn't find it |
| 10:46 | christianmarcsch | ok |
| 10:46 | erikos | alsroot: oh ok |
| 10:46 | christianmarcsch | hang on a second while i look for the design source file |
| 10:46 | so, the checkboxes won't make it in for this build, right? | |
| 10:46 | eben | I don't think a hover effect is needed there, by the way. |
| 10:47 | alsroot | just thought that since 0.84- had it.. |
| 10:47 | christianmarcsch | eben: how do we select an item then? by simply clicking on it? is there any feedback? |
| 10:47 | eben | what does it represent, though? |
| 10:48 | Different parts do different things. | |
| 10:48 | christianmarcsch | eben: just as a refresher... ;) |
| 10:48 | eben | Clicking the image itself resumes |
| 10:48 | alsroot | eben: nope, it will select object for activity |
| 10:48 | eben | clicking the star/details buttons of course effects those actions |
| 10:48 | christianmarcsch | that's the standard behavior everywhere in the UI, so we should adhere to it here as well |
| 10:48 | eben | alsroot: What do you mean? |
| 10:49 | Oh, that's the object chooser...I thought that was the Journal. Actually, we had a separate treatment of the grid in the chooser, I think. | |
| 10:49 | looks for mockups | |
| 10:49 | christianmarcsch | so, comparing to the designs we put together earlier, the details arrow was underneath the label, and there was a checkbox above the star, for every thumbnail |
| 10:50 | eben: want me to forward it to you? | |
| 10:50 | eben | I've got it. |
| 10:51 | alsroot | christianmarcsch: about checkboxes, looks like its postponed for 0.90 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ns_in_the_Journal |
| 10:51 | christianmarcsch | alsroot: ok, thanks. just wondering |
| 10:51 | erikos | yup, we move it to 0.90 |
| 10:52 | christianmarcsch | well, the view looks good |
| 10:52 | just one thing: | |
| 10:52 | i wonder if we should make images full bleed and crop the edges, rather than scaling them to the size of the bounding box? | |
| 10:52 | eben | The grid looks a bit tight; we had 4 columns in the mockups. |
| 10:52 | benzea | has the feeling he was away for too long to really understand everything ;-) |
| 10:52 | christianmarcsch | eben: that is true. may look better with four columns |
| 10:53 | eben | christianmarcsch: I was debating that internally, myself. In reality, this is probably the edge case....activity previews are always 4x3. |
| 10:53 | So only images downloaded from elsewhere will be of another aspect ratio. | |
| 10:53 | christianmarcsch | eben: just thinking it might look better if the images were larger and fullbleed |
| 10:53 | eben: i see... | |
| 10:53 | eben | christianmarcsch: Yeah, no argument there. |
| 10:54 | christianmarcsch | well, can we make it four columns? does anything speak against that treatment? |
| 10:54 | benzea | erikos: is that a GtkIconView? |
| 10:55 | eben | Part of the reason we chose 4 is because we allowed the text labels to extend beyond the preview just a bit, to prevent excessive wrapping. |
| 10:55 | alsroot | christianmarcsch: sure, I'll just tune hardcoded thumb size(I use zoom() for sooming them) |
| 10:55 | christianmarcsch | yes, and also it makes for larger image previews |
| 10:55 | eben | (In particular, we didn't want the date to wrap, is can be seen in the screenshot) |
| 10:55 | christianmarcsch | alsroot: that sounds great |
| 10:55 | eben | s/is/as |
| 10:56 | christianmarcsch | eben: agree re: the dates |
| 10:56 | and what do people think about making the images fullbleed inside the boxes, and removing the box borders? | |
| 10:56 | alsroot | will remove wrapping for dates |
| 10:56 | christianmarcsch | it's an edgecase, as eben points out, but could still make a difference visually |
| 10:57 | alsroot | christianmarcsch: btw we have also activity icons for thumbless objects, should we use broders for them |
| 10:57 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: fullbleed sounds good to me |
| 10:57 | christianmarcsch | alsroot: yes, in that case we should continue to use borders |
| 10:57 | eben | christianmarcsch: Keep the borders in either case; but I could go either way on full bleed. It would look nicer. |
| 10:58 | christianmarcsch | eben: ok, sure. i suppose if you have an image with a white bg the border would still help |
| 10:58 | eben | Borders are needed in case of light/white images...they are light enough that they shouldn't be noticeable on darker ones |
| 10:58 | christianmarcsch | eben: agreed |
| 10:58 | garycmartin | eben: +1 on four columns |
| 10:59 | alsroot | btw, should we restrict grid size: to numeber of cells or to minimal thumb sizes |
| 10:59 | ..4x4 for huge monitor will look ugly | |
| 10:59 | christianmarcsch | alsroot: yes, that makes sense |
| 10:59 | we were designing for 1200 i believe | |
| 10:59 | alsroot | christianmarcsch: having ugly look :) |
| 11:00 | ? | |
| 11:00 | christianmarcsch | the screen res |
| 11:00 | but if you have a larger screen, you could add extra columns | |
| 11:00 | wait, i can give you the dimensions | |
| 11:00 | alsroot | so, min thumb sizes but tune it to have 4 cols for XO res? |
| 11:01 | christianmarcsch | alsroot: i'd say so, yes |
| 11:01 | alsroot | written it down |
| 11:01 | christianmarcsch | so, i checked and we had used 160x120px for the thumbs |
| 11:02 | let's optimize for 1200px width (4 cols), but beyond that we can add additional columns keeping the same column spacing and thumb size | |
| 11:02 | eben | right |
| 11:02 | alsroot | christianmarcsch: will do |
| 11:02 | christianmarcsch | by the way: have we made any progress on tagging in journal? |
| 11:02 | i was just looking back through the mocks we did last august | |
| 11:02 | alsroot | christianmarcsch: also moved to 0.90 |
| 11:02 | christianmarcsch | o |
| 11:03 | k | |
| 11:03 | ;) | |
| 11:03 | eben | I'm going to provide a bounty to anyone who can fix the darn popup selector sizes. |
| 11:03 | erikos_ | eben: which sizes? |
| 11:03 | christianmarcsch | eben: +1 |
| 11:03 | eben | They've been a thorn in my size for what, 4 years now? :) |
| 11:04 | The popup selectors....they should match the height of the search entry. | |
| 11:04 | erikos_ | eben: ohhhh, I see them now |
| 11:04 | christianmarcsch | eben: i'll chip in to that bounty... it would be great to fix them |
| 11:04 | erikos_ | looks at benzea |
| 11:05 | benzea: that is something we should do in the theme, or? | |
| 11:05 | benzea | huh? |
| 11:05 | erikos_ | benzea: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Hover-over.png |
| 11:05 | benzea: the popup selector | |
| 11:05 | benzea: or drop-down menu | |
| 11:06 | benzea: should have the same height, then the gtk.entry | |
| 11:06 | benzea | ok, what is the "popup selector"? |
| 11:06 | erikos_ | benzea: combobox |
| 11:06 | benzea | ahh |
| 11:07 | huh, they are supposed to be the same size? | |
| 11:07 | eben | Sorry, we designers don't know our terminology. We just want those things to be 45px tall. :) |
| 11:07 | benzea: refer to any mockup. ;) It's the sore thumb that differentiates all mockups from all screenshots. Heh. | |
| 11:07 | benzea | I mean, one is a button, so 65px, and the other should be 45px, iirc |
| 11:07 | eben | benzea: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Journal-10.jpeg |
| 11:08 | christianmarcsch | because i have to leave soon, can we quickly talk about the color selector? |
| 11:09 | erikos_ | sure |
| 11:09 | alsroot | thought it was a feature |
| 11:09 | eben | Sorry, I didn't mean to derail us. |
| 11:09 | erikos_ | http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ed_Color_Selector |
| 11:09 | christianmarcsch | eben: maybe you can pick it up again after the color selector? |
| 11:09 | benzea | eben: you are evil! |
| 11:09 | christianmarcsch | eben: it would be great to fix the menus ;) |
| 11:10 | erikos_ | aleksey and walter have been coding the options listed in the mockups |
| 11:10 | christianmarcsch | so, i think both actually work well |
| 11:10 | benzea | ok, not sure right now; getting all the be the "correct" height from the theme is really evil |
| 11:10 | and based on assumptions about the font size in the theme | |
| 11:10 | christianmarcsch | my personal preference might be the grid, but i can see arguments for the more exploratory first option as well |
| 11:10 | walterbender | I have a slight problem with both the grid and the version with just stroke and just fill |
| 11:10 | erikos_ | christianmarcsch: I showed the first ones to my wife and she found them very confusing :/ |
| 11:11 | benzea | erikos_: however, in this case you also have the issue that comboboxes scale up automatically to fill the space, while entries don't |
| 11:11 | christianmarcsch | erikos: hmm, yes--they require a bit more engagement |
| 11:11 | walterbender | the grid, unsorted, gives the impression of many choices, but it is hard to navigate. |
| 11:11 | erikos_ | benzea: let's keep it on in a second |
| 11:11 | walterbender | we should have an order to the colors if we use a grid |
| 11:11 | christianmarcsch | walterbender: agreed |
| 11:11 | the grid generally seems more straightforward | |
| 11:11 | walterbender | the stroke-only/fill-only buttons lose context |
| 11:11 | christianmarcsch | especially if the colors were ordered |
| 11:11 | eben | walterbender: agreed |
| 11:12 | christianmarcsch | i agree with that, too |
| 11:12 | the first option looks better, of the two | |
| 11:12 | walterbender | I could work with alsroot on a new order to the color list if we go that route. |
| 11:12 | erikos_ | yeah, if we go with the plus, i like the first one much more |
| 11:12 | christianmarcsch | for the grid: could we expand it over the full width of the screen? |
| 11:12 | erikos_ | (as well found out by in-house testing :) |
| 11:13 | eben | I know we've been encouraging exploration, but I just want to toss out the idea again that we could just have a "hue slider" for both stroke and fill, stacked next to the XO. |
| 11:13 | alsroot | christianmarcsch: will require recoding, current code scheme is stuck to widget and having dull sized grid will require using another shceme |
| 11:13 | christianmarcsch | alsroot: ok |
| 11:13 | eben | Each could be "labeled" with an image of just the stroke, or just the fill, and sliding could move through the spectrum. |
| 11:13 | christianmarcsch | eben: i do rather like the idea of a stroke and fill slider... |
| 11:14 | though i still think i would lean towards the grid | |
| 11:14 | maybe i just like grids ;) | |
| 11:14 | eben | I think it would be exploratory enough, and quite clear to play with, especially since the feedback would be so immediate. |
| 11:14 | erikos_ | eben: I think the slider is a good option |
| 11:14 | eben | I just fear that the XO army detracts from the central XO. |
| 11:15 | I liked how this screen was an immediate reflection of "me" before. My name. My XO. Etc. | |
| 11:16 | christianmarcsch | does the plus feel more as a reflection of "me"? i think it might |
| 11:16 | eben | Also, this is a bit philosophical, but then it becomes about "changing my color" instead of "becoming someone else" |
| 11:16 | alsroot | eben: but grid is more for "becoming someone else" |
| 11:17 | christianmarcsch | i think that is eben's point |
| 11:17 | eben | Right, that's my point. The sliders would just be adjusting me. |
| 11:17 | erikos_ | eben: one issue with the slider is fine tuning |
| 11:17 | christianmarcsch | the army of XOs though is somehow appealing |
| 11:18 | erikos_ | eben: once you are beyond your choice, it might be difficult to get back |
| 11:18 | christianmarcsch | it makes the choice easy to make, by selecting one of many options |
| 11:18 | eben | how many colors do we have for each stroke/fill? |
| 11:18 | erikos_ | looks at walter |
| 11:18 | christianmarcsch | it's very inviting to be able to choose from a large array of objects |
| 11:18 | eben | erikos_: Sure, but if they are in hue order, going past it leaves you still very close. |
| 11:18 | garycmartin | Is the new colour selector (what ever design is settled on) just for the control panel, not for the currently nice and simple first boot? |
| 11:19 | erikos_ | garycmartin: first boot, too |
| 11:19 | garycmartin: if we agree that we want to keep the option there | |
| 11:19 | eben | It would only be a problem if there are too many colors to land on with a child's motor skills. |
| 11:19 | walterbender | we have about 170 color combos as I recall |
| 11:19 | eben | OK, so that's like 13 colors each. |
| 11:19 | alsroot | eben: 180 colors at all, and 27/21 for parts |
| 11:20 | eben | So a slider with 13 steps isn't too bad. |
| 11:20 | walterbender | maybe the panel is for first boot and the next/prev is for the control panel ? |
| 11:20 | garycmartin | erikos_: +1 on keeping colour picker at first boot, but I worry this is all getting to featureitus and complex (sliders, mouse drag and hold skills etc). |
| 11:20 | christianmarcsch | sorry everyone--i'm going to have to leave |
| 11:21 | i'll be on email later, in case there is anything i can help with... | |
| 11:21 | erikos_ | christianmarcsch: enjoy your rest of the wekend |
| 11:21 | christianmarcsch | thanks--you too! |
| 11:21 | eben | garycmartin: good point. OK, another thought...compromise between grid/slider. |
| 11:22 | What if we have two rows of "swatches"....one for stroke, and one for fill...instead of a slider. Make the swatches just the "O" part of the "XO"....so that we don't have lots of XOs on screen at once. | |
| 11:22 | Then you can see the target, click (not drag!), and you still retain the separation between stroke/fill (which I'm convinced kids can figure out), and you still retain the hue ordering which is so logical in this context, but lost in the grid. | |
| 11:23 | walterbender | we could have a row of XOs with just the current stroke variations from the current fill and just the current fill variations from the current stroke |
| 11:23 | eben | (Well, you could have it in the grid, too, but in the square of the space) |
| 11:23 | walterbender | it makes it an order n instead of order n^2 problem |
| 11:23 | eben | walterbender: That's exactly what I'm suggesting, actually, only I'm suggesting making them circular swatches instead. |
| 11:24 | walterbender | eben: like I did for the xoman activity? but I think the loss of visual context is a problem |
| 11:24 | eben | Well, two rows. One for stroke variations and one for fill variations. |
| 11:24 | walterbender | this is essentially how the xo-man activity is organized... |
| 11:24 | circles. | |
| 11:25 | but I think a row above and below the big XO would work well | |
| 11:25 | it would be about 6-8 in each | |
| 11:27 | eben | I would put both below, so they are side by side, so visualizing the differences between the rows is easier. |
| 11:27 | erikos_ | this sounds as we would not really be set for the color selctor feature design :/ |
| 11:28 | how can we move forward on this one? | |
| 11:29 | a) do we think we need more time and move it out to the next release | |
| 11:29 | eben | Or, we could embed the XOeditor activity in there. We had mockups of that before. |
| 11:29 | garycmartin | was just playing with xoeditor |
| 11:29 | eben | That layout is really clean, actually. |
| 11:29 | I've always liked the color associations in that layout. | |
| 11:29 | erikos_ | b) have a design we are sure that would be an enhancement |
| 11:29 | walterbender | well, I wrote that in java script... |
| 11:30 | erikos_ | for context: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/XoEditor |
| 11:30 | #Link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/XoEditor | |
| 11:30 | alsroot | if everyone agree w/ having two rows design it could be implemented in mockup today |
| 11:31 | walterbender | erikos_: can I suggest we just go with the simple solution in hand for 0.88 and revisit for 0.90? |
| 11:31 | alsroot | and we can see if it works fine |
| 11:31 | walterbender | alsroot: +1 |
| 11:31 | erikos_ | walterbender: which is the simple solution? |
| 11:31 | alsroot: two rows design? what eben suggested, you mean? | |
| 11:31 | walterbender | erikos: the + |
| 11:32 | alsroot | erikos_: yup |
| 11:32 | eben | that would be fine with me. |
| 11:32 | walterbender | but the two rows (=) if alsroot has time. |
| 11:32 | alsroot | is sure he has |
| 11:32 | erikos_ | ok, I agree that the plus is an enhancement over what we have at the moment |
| 11:32 | alsroot: :) | |
| 11:33 | ok, let's do it then | |
| 11:33 | alsroot | I'll try to install xvidcap and will post video to ml |
| 11:33 | erikos_ | alsroot: you can code the mockup and mail a screenshot |
| 11:33 | alsroot: even better ;p | |
| 11:33 | and if not, we have the plus code already | |
| 11:33 | nice! | |
| 11:34 | wants to note that he likes the http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/XoEditor design, too! | |
| 11:34 | ok, we have a few action items | |
| 11:34 | some icons we need | |
| 11:34 | * Font configuration | |
| 11:34 | * 3G Support | |
| 11:35 | walterbender | is looking forward to accessing the default font size for his activities :) |
| 11:35 | erikos_ | * (Thumbs view) |
| 11:35 | garycmartin: eben you both did work on the 3G one, is that available now? | |
| 11:35 | alsroot: did christian find the thumbs-view one? | |
| 11:35 | eben | We just need a decision on which to use (I didn't see yours, Gary) |
| 11:35 | I have the grid icon as well. | |
| 11:36 | alsroot | erikos_: icon you mean? |
| 11:36 | erikos_ | eben: awesome, can you send it to alsroot ? |
| 11:36 | garycmartin | erikos_: sorry, my GSM icon version slipped through the cracks again this week, I'll get it posted to the list for comparsion with Ebens phone version. |
| 11:36 | eben | I can export all 3 of those if the 3G and Font ones in the mockups I sent earlier are liked. |
| 11:36 | erikos_ | garycmartin: perfect! |
| 11:36 | eben: I did not see the font mockup | |
| 11:37 | eben: I guess, you sent it to yevlempy only? | |
| 11:37 | garycmartin | will do it after meeting today. |
| 11:37 | erikos_ | garycmartin: :D |
| 11:37 | eben | It's sent in the thread. Oh, was that a private thread? I didn't think it was. |
| 11:38 | It was. Oops. I'll respond back to the list. | |
| 11:38 | garycmartin | :-) |
| 11:38 | erikos_ | eben: nice, thanks |
| 11:38 | ok, what else | |
| 11:38 | eben: we had some issues with the 3G behavior - feedback for the user | |
| 11:38 | garycmartin: eben did you come to a conclusion what to do for 0.88? | |
| 11:39 | eben | I saw that. I didn't have much new to bring to the table apart from what was said. |
| 11:39 | I think there were a few good ideas there that would work. | |
| 11:40 | erikos_ | ok, maybe we can follow up then on this thread and decide what can be done |
| 11:40 | garycmartin | erikos_: no conclusions yet I think. |
| 11:41 | eben | I have some comments on the objects chooser, if anyone has time to hear them. Or should that wait until next week? |
| 11:41 | erikos_ | eben: you can discuss with aleksey |
| 11:41 | eben: I have to leave now | |
| 11:42 | garycmartin: if you have a running sugar-jhbuild | |
| 11:42 | garycmartin | yep |
| 11:42 | alsroot | eben: sure |
| 11:42 | erikos_ | garycmartin: I will look at thumbs tomorrow |
| 11:42 | garycmartin: maybe you can check out alekseys branch, too | |
| 11:42 | alsroot | eben: I mean right now |
| 11:42 | erikos_ | garycmartin: and check out the workflow |
| 11:43 | needs to run | |
| 11:43 | thanks everyone for joining in | |
| 11:43 | and the other items we will discuss offline | |
| 11:43 | #endmeeting | |
| 11:43 | #stopmeeting | |
| 11:44 | hmm ;p | |
| 11:44 | and eben and aleksey can keep on of course ;p | |
| 11:44 | garycmartin | erikos_: OK, catch you later. |
| 11:44 | erikos | #endmeeting |
