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#sugar-meeting, 2010-01-22

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
11:05 cjb morning.
11:05 walterbender We should capture the discussion in the minutes.
11:05 hi everyone. can we do a quick roll call?
11:05 SeanDaly hi everyone
11:05 walterbender bernie? tomeu? CanoeBerry?
11:06 mchua here
11:06 tomeu hi all!
11:06 walterbender OK. Let's jump in.
11:06 Mel did a great job of preparing background materials for all of our discussion topics
11:07 SeanDaly yes
11:07 cjb http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]inutes-2010-01-22
11:07 walterbender #topic finances
11:08 I have promised a review of our finances. I have been climbing a learning curve since taking over as interim finance officer
11:08 mchua #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]10-01-22#Finances
11:08 walterbender I keep pestering the SFC with questions and I am beginning to understand what is going on.
11:09 The trick is to use a mono-spaced font when reading the financial reports :)
11:09 then the numbers add up properly.
11:09 SeanDaly i would be willing to do finances (competence), but I have hesitated since very short on time with current commitments
11:09 mchua That having been said, I get the impression that walterbender should be our interim finance director for as short a time as possible :)
11:09 walterbender SeanDaly: we need to find someone else... we are all overcommitted
11:09 mchua Must the finance director be a SLOB?
11:09 SeanDaly yes Courier font often used in SEC Edgar reports
11:09 walterbender mchua: +1
11:09 mchua or would it be ideal to have a non-SLOB?
11:10 walterbender mchua: I don't think it needs to be a SLOB
11:10 SeanDaly ideally, a trustable reliable person :D not necessarily a SLOB (no ill-meaning intended :-)
11:10 walterbender #action more effort into finding a new FD
11:11 mchua Ok, then it sounds like the only question from the finances Q&A is answered
11:11 walterbender but in the meanwhile, are there any open questions I can answer?
11:11 mchua ("Should we have someone take on the action item of recruiting another treasurer (who would then have to be approved/appointed by a SLOBs motion)?")
11:11 walterbender: according to the wiki page, just that ^^
11:11 I got mine answered by walterbender on the list, and transferred those questions over to the finances section of our briefing notes, ahead of time ;)
11:12 walterbender mchua: I think we need to all reach out... I've been mentioning it in the Digest, the Wiki, etc. I even met a potential candidate for lunch this week... but no luck so far
11:12 tomeu #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Vacants
11:13 walterbender tomeu: yeah. I posted the job as soon as you created that page :)
11:13 tomeu now we need a way to publicize it in the best way
11:13 cjb ("Vacancies" might be better)
11:14 mchua Anyone want to be HR director for a week?
11:14 walterbender well, if there are no other questions, let's all spread the word and move on to the next topic?
11:14 mchua I'll do it, unless someone else wants to.
11:14 SeanDaly wow hadn't seen a vacancies page... very useful
11:14 tomeu oops, will rename
11:14 didn't intended to write in french
11:14 SeanDaly "We're pretty... Pretty Vacant"
11:14 mchua #action mchua take on temporary HR spot until next SLOBs meeting, report on Vacancies to be given at next meeting
11:15 walterbender all of this suggests we still have the problem that our website doesn't communicate well, even to us
11:15 SeanDaly FR : "postes à pourvoir"
11:15 walterbender a topic for another day
11:15 tomeu #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Vacancies
11:15 mchua Yeah, that's something I'll take a look at with that HR hat on temporarylike.
11:15 next topic?
11:15 walterbender #topic infrastucture
11:15 SeanDaly our website needs the quick fix of the navbar, but a BIG fix later....
11:15 walterbender bernie: can you take the lead on this?
11:15 CanoeBerry Late as usual, hiya.
11:16 walterbender CanoeBerry: np. welcome
11:16 CanoeBerry Haiti grassroots community-building around OLPC/Sugar/EToys are becoming intense..
11:16 SeanDaly greets CanoeBerry
11:16 CanoeBerry Plz participate this Saturday if you can, in your own city: http://crisiscamp.org
11:16 cjb we keep skipping infrastructure 'cause Bernie isn't here
11:16 walterbender CanoeBerry: glad you connected with Tim
11:16 mchua #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]22#Infrastructure
11:16 cjb although being in Paraguay is a better excuse than normal :-)
11:17 mchua cjb: BUT! background information and two motions are on that page!
11:17 walterbender cjb: he has been on line all morning
11:17 mchua So we can do infra today!
11:17 plays "I am the wiki proxy"
11:17 walterbender do we want to discuss the Wikipedia machines?
11:17 mchua It's a small budgetary amount, I'd say yes.
11:17 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]Wikipedia_servers
11:18 cjb mchua: well, the background says "if we successfully obtain Wikipedia servers then we don't have to authorize the big one yet"
11:18 walterbender seems like the Wikipedia "investment" is worth making
11:18 cjb yeah, I think so
11:18 mchua Yep, I'm inclined to bring up the 2nd motion and just approve it
11:18 cjb even if a few machines are unreliable, it's a very large number of them
11:18 ok.  let's do that.
11:19 walterbender I doubt it will be a "solution" in and of itself, but it has potential for broadening our reach and community
11:19 mchua and then bring up the 1st and say no and give approval of the 2nd as the reason.
11:19 motion: Authorize Luke to ship some used hardware from the Wikipedia Foundation (12 servers) to various hosting sites. The cost should not exceed US$300.
11:19 cjb seconded
11:19 mchua walterbender: can you #info that motion?
11:19 walterbender any final discussion?
11:19 #info motion: Authorize Luke to ship some used hardware from the Wikipedia Foundation (12 servers) to various hosting sites. The cost should not exceed US$300.
11:19 SeanDaly dfarning had told me in November that hosting capacity was becoming critical
11:20 walterbender cjb: any chance of hosting a server or two at 1CC?
11:20 SeanDaly may I ask, what is holding us back for big new server(s), just finances?
11:20 cjb walterbender: not sure, but we do already have several hosting offers lined up for these machines
11:20 walterbender SeanDaly: we are hoping that RIT and Luke's friends in DC will help too
11:20 cjb RIT, and TransInterSomethingOrOther
11:20 mchua I think Bernie's summary sums it up - $300 is going to potentially prevent us from having to spend $3000, and is $community_involvement++ - I can see nothing but wins on this.
11:20 walterbender so let's vote
11:20 yes
11:20 cjb aye
11:21 SeanDaly yea
11:21 CanoeBerry I vote what bernie votes.
11:21 cjb bernie isn't here
11:21 SeanDaly CanoeBerry is data-driven on infra
11:21 CanoeBerry bernie's basically endorsing, yes?
11:21 cjb tomeu: ^
11:21 CanoeBerry: yes
11:21 CanoeBerry Aye
11:21 walterbender mchua? tomeu?
11:22 tomeu yes!
11:22 mchua aye
11:22 cjb ok, passes
11:23 mchua walterbender: can haz #agreed ?
11:23 walterbender OK. the motion passes 5 yea, 0 nay, 2 deferred
11:23 mchua YAY
11:23 I'd like to bring up the first motion now and deny it with "we'll see how the wikimedia servers work out, come back later if you end up really needing this" rationale
11:23 cjb shall we vote on the $3000 authorization now, rejecting it until we figure out what we've got from wikimedia?
11:23 walterbender #agreed to Authorize Luke to ship some used hardware from the Wikipedia Foundation (12 servers) to various hosting sites. The cost should not exceed US$300.
11:24 mchua cjb: jinx!
11:24 Motion: Authorize Bernie to purchase a new server. The cost should not exceed US$ 3000.
11:24 cjb seconded
11:24 NAY
11:24 :)
11:24 mchua NAY
11:24 walterbender discussion?
11:24 I think we should defer rather than reject
11:24 SeanDaly was that cost HW only, or hosting costs e.g. bandwidth ?
11:24 cjb walterbender: there isn't intended to be a functional difference
11:25 SeanDaly: hardware only
11:25 SeanDaly: we have hosting offers
11:25 mchua yeah, I see defer as "we don't have enough info to make a decision now"
11:25 walterbender cjb: I suppose functionally yes, but spiritually no
11:25 cjb ok
11:25 walterbender SeanDaly: I think this is hw only... but we have been soliciting (almost) free hosting.
11:25 SeanDaly I ask because I learned something vital from finance sheet... "small" donations larger amt than I expected
11:26 walterbender but the motion is made and we need to act on it, unless it is withdrawn
11:26 mchua Basically, whatever communicates "since if we successfully obtain donated servers from the Wikimedia foundation, we may keep going a while more without this expense, let's keep going a while without it,and you let us know with another motion later - or bring up this one again - if that status changes."
11:26 SeanDaly which means we may want to look into small-donation funding drives e.g. "donate $25 for a new server"
11:26 cjb walterbender: can we vote "defer" on a motion instead of yes or no?
11:26 walterbender SeanDaly: good idea
11:26 CanoeBerry I want more details on thie $3000 expenditure, including ground rules (SLA-like social contract) for RIT hosting, in comparison to GDK's offer for "free" Amazon hosting etc.
11:27 walterbender cjb: I will have to ask Roberts :) but sure.
11:27 so shall we vote (to defer)?
11:27 SeanDaly well, beggars can't be choosers... it's not like we can threaten not to pay if we got sthing for free :D
11:27 cjb CanoeBerry: it's just the price for a beefy machine from HP or someone.  everything else is to be worked out separately.
11:28 oh, by the way, I heard that OLPC's colo space is moving into the new media lab building
11:28 in a month or so
11:28 CanoeBerry Very Interesting.
11:28 walterbender cjb: I am persona non grata, but maybe someone else can ask...
11:28 cjb it may be easier (or harder!) to manage the space there than W91, which is quite awkward
11:28 CanoeBerry cjb: I still have concerns about buying a $3000 machine -- its uses / hosting arrangement should be more explicit.
11:29 cjb CanoeBerry: that's reasonable
11:29 SeanDaly "colo space" "W91" "1CC"... must be Boston slang
11:29 walterbender I think we have gathered enough info to definitely agree to not vote on this now
11:29 cjb SeanDaly: colo == co-location, where you give you server to someone else to host on their network
11:29 walterbender #info need more info
11:29 #agreed need more info
11:30 dfarning SeanDaly, I am in the process of working with RIT, Bernie, and Luke to create a infrastructure like http://osuosl.org/  to support Sugar Labs.  Luke is now leading the project.  It might be useful to ask him or bernie for a progess report as part of the SL infrastructure plan
11:30 SeanDaly CanoeBerry: I managed hosting a decade ago at work for 80 websites... on Internet, a rule of thumb is to get as much power/bandwidth/monitoring/security as you can afford... for the day the tsunami of visitors arrives
11:30 walterbender #action get bernie to a SLOBs meeting to lead the infrastructure discussion
11:31 mchua Can we all vote 'defer' on this motion?
11:31 walterbender is abusing his role as meeting chair :)
11:31 cjb defer
11:31 CanoeBerry dfarning: very promising, thanks.
11:31 mchua defer
11:31 walterbender defer
11:31 CanoeBerry Defer
11:31 SeanDaly defer
11:31 cjb ok
11:31 what's up next?
11:31 walterbender #topic Trademark
11:31 mchua TRADEMARK!
11:31 SeanDaly our favorite
11:31 mchua #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]0-01-22#Trademark
11:31 tomeu dfarning: wow, that will be great, understanding that it brings more sysadmin resources
11:32 mchua Background sections there for reading/quick-briefing/reference during discussion.
11:32 Should we go through the discussion questions one by one and see where we stand?
11:32 walterbender We left things with some new language in the preamble and in Section 2
11:32 mchua The motion we want to be able to pass - asap - is "Approve the trademark policy listed at $some_link."
11:32 walterbender Did we come to agreement re the written vs non-written confusion?
11:32 mchua so the discussion questions are the things we know we need to look at, in order to get there.
11:32 SeanDaly no, not asap
11:33 mchua SeanDaly: well, "asap with the requirement that we're doing it right, and not skipping things in haste."
11:33 walterbender let's be systemic here. Section 2 wording first
11:34 cjb I think it would be good to take a step back
11:34 SeanDaly: do you see something like the draft trademark policy being ratified?
11:34 we're spending a lot of meetings working on it, but I don't know if it's actually anything like what you think we're going to come up with
11:36 SeanDaly I see an iteration... Karen from SFC reviews, we discuss goals with her. Then we need to think of scenarios, with the most common scenario birthing a procedure which is light and efficient
11:36 but as far as voting an official policy... before that happens ^^needs to happen
11:37 what's tough about this is not just protecting our marks, but encouraging others to do so
11:37 walterbender SeanDaly: FWIW, Karen has been reviewing our progress
11:38 SeanDaly Mel raised a very important point... I had proposed our licensing always be free ; but charging for it may be a useful revenue generator for, say, an OEM
11:38 cjb so do you think it's worth having this meeting to refine the draft some more ourselves, or would you rather we just punted to Karen?
11:38 walterbender SeanDaly: and we have the usage guideliens page as well, a work in progress
11:38 SeanDaly walterbender has said Karen following....
11:38 walterbender SeanDaly: but I think this is going to me more like case law
11:39 SeanDaly for me, usage guidelines should be final with a final policy...
11:39 CanoeBerry dfarning: were you talking about Luke F (DC Area) or Luke M (Boston area RIT alum) ?
11:39 SeanDaly look at how tech companies publish... always a FAQ which explains typical cases and answers clearly what can/cannot be done
11:39 walterbender SeanDaly: I am confused out how we can proceed
11:40 SeanDaly while... i am not myself sure yet what we should and shouldn't allow
11:40 dfarning CanoeBerry, Luke F
11:40 SeanDaly i propose an approach:
11:40 walterbender SeanDaly: we cannot have an FAQ without the guidelines
11:40 SeanDaly we work backwards from scenarios
11:40 cjb SeanDaly: I guess one way of saying this is that I don't feel like you're on-board with the draft, and that makes me not want to waste more time working on it.  Sorry if that's an unfair perception.
11:41 SeanDaly for example, considering the SoaS case was extremely useful
11:41 walterbender SeanDaly: we have a few more cases pending, e.g., dfarning's request
11:42 SeanDaly cjb: I'm sorry to say i don't have confidence in the draft yet... your perception is correct... if no one minds delaying further I can work on it more... i'd rather advance on other topics at the moment
11:42 walterbender SeanDaly: but I think we need to settle on a set of guidelines to frame our decisions, or we will forever drift and be unpredictable
11:43 cjb SeanDaly: Okay.  That's useful to know, and at least stops us from wasting time.
11:43 SeanDaly walterbender: what i suggest is that we imagine scenarios and build consensus
11:43 cjb Does everyone else feel like it's okay to postpone getting trademark guidelines until SeanDaly reports back with new ideas?
11:43 walterbender SeanDaly: I don't want to ratify prematurely, but I do want to make sure are heading down a path
11:43 SeanDaly ex: an Asian OEM uses marks, but the code is not Sugar
11:43 walterbender cjb: I don't see how we have any choice really
11:43 SeanDaly ex: Trisquel
11:44 ex: a liveUSB with Sugar as dual-boot with sthing else
11:44 walterbender SeanDaly: we have lots of examples... I guess I don't understand what you are afer.
11:44 ^after
11:44 writing them all down in one place?
11:44 mchua Do we want to lay out some action items for trademark between now and next week - maybe that's "SeanDaly finishes case study list that we'll next work on fleshing in and bringing to the community for discussion"?
11:45 SeanDaly walterbender: a clear response to each
11:45 where we not only protect, but encourage use
11:45 a wiki page with scenarios could help
11:45 walterbender SeanDaly: Trisquel is a fine, real-world example of it working
11:45 SeanDaly we could put a deadline on it if there's concern about meandering
11:46 walterbender SeanDaly: dfarning is proposing another real-world example
11:46 cjb SeanDaly: it would be good to have an answer for dfarning
11:46 SeanDaly Yes I agree... it's best-case scenario: initial contact, continuing contact
11:46 cjb if it were the case that we all agree that his is fine, we could tell him that
11:46 if we don't agree, he'll have to wait :)
11:46 walterbender SeanDaly: I am concerned about a lack of a clear process to completion, not the deadline for completion
11:47 mchua agrees.
11:47 cjb too
11:47 SeanDaly https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuSugarRemix
11:47 walterbender mchua: agrees with what?
11:47 mchua walterbender: your concern with the lack of a clear process to completion, rather than a deadline for completion
11:48 walterbender SeanDaly: I would shut that site down due to spelling errors :)
11:48 mchua SeanDaly: What is the next step? A list of case studies to flesh in?
11:48 SeanDaly walterbender: all it needs are some SL trademarks :D :D
11:49 mchua: yes
11:49 mchua SeanDaly: Ok - how does that list of case studies need to be generated, are there any particular things each case study should have
11:49 walterbender SeanDaly: but seriously, it is not "sweetened by"
11:49 SeanDaly and, consensus in our responses: easy if we all say yes and no to the same things
11:49 dfarning walterbender, My first hire was a local student to copy edit my writing.
11:49 mchua SeanDaly: (basically, "how would we know that list of case studies is 'finished enough' for us to go on to whatever step is next?)
11:49 walterbender SeanDaly: so I am concerned about how it jives with the current draft text and with Marketing
11:50 SeanDaly walterbender: it's a good test case scenario... dfarning is filling a gaping hole
11:50 cjb walterbender: under the current draft text, it would need our permission because it isn't a preapproved naming construction, right?
11:50 SeanDaly also I like "sweetened with" more than "sweetened by" ;-)
11:51 mchua Do we want to take dfarning's case as a special SLOBs decision consideration in the same way we did SoaS?
11:51 (for refernence, that's http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]a_Stick_decision_.28Q3.29)
11:52 cjb mchua: I'd be happy to, but only because I think it's incontrovertibly a reasonable use of the mark; i.e. if our trademark policy said no, we would have the wrong trademark policy.
11:52 walterbender SeanDaly: I am still confused: we have an unratified set of guidelines and an application for a decision from the community. How do we proceed?
11:52 mchua walterbender: for SoaS, we used the general formulation: "Yes, $what_the_person_asked_for is approved, until such time when a trademark policy, agreement, and process is put in place: $project will be the Nth project to go through that process."
11:52 SeanDaly mchua: even bettter perhaps to have that project and SoaS be first to go through procedure
11:52 mchua Can we do the same for dfarning's proposal?
11:53 SeanDaly walterbender: application you mean dfarning's
11:53 ?
11:53 mchua SeanDaly: I agree, I want to treat this the same way we treated SoaS, I see it as the same situation - in the SoaS case we gave an interim ruling so that the project could move forward
11:53 and I'd like to do the same here if we can
11:54 SeanDaly mchua: we're not slowing down dfarning as far as I know?
11:54 walterbender SeanDaly, mchua: I don't think it is fair to anyone to give them tacit approval and then say we reserve the right to pull the rug out from under you. we need to be predictable.
11:54 SeanDaly walterbender: quite agree, which is why I think dfarning's project should go through procedure
11:54 walterbender either we agree to pursue establishing guidelines and a process for doing it, or we agree to say to all comers, take your chances
11:55 SeanDaly in a sense dfarning's project closer to typical case
11:55 mchua SeanDaly: if we're not blocking dfarning, then perhaps we should defer discussion on dfarning's case until we have a trademark process for him to go through.
11:55 SeanDaly walterbender: I'm working on establishing guidelines....
11:55 cjb dfarning: hi!  are we blocking you?  ;-)
11:56 SeanDaly mchua: isn't that what I just said :D
11:56 walterbender SeanDaly: which is why we have been trying to establish a procedure... based on guidelines
11:56 mchua SeanDaly: ok, we're on the same page then :)
11:56 walterbender so how do we get from here to having a set of procedures and guidelines?
11:56 mchua Well, Sean said the next step is to have a completed list of case studies.
11:56 That we can use as the basis of making those guidelines.
11:56 SeanDaly: (am I totally misinterpreting?)
11:57 SeanDaly we list cases... I say yes because or no because... everyone agrees
11:57 mchua: you got it
11:57 mchua SeanDaly: Ok - what does that list of case studies look like? how does that get started, how will we know it's done?
11:57 SeanDaly and... if not everyone agrees... we refine
11:57 mchua trying to get a clearer picture of our trademark to-do list
11:57 SeanDaly mchua: as I say a wiki page would be helpful
11:58 cjb how many case studies should we have before we're done?  do we make them up, or are they real?
11:58 SeanDaly cjb: I agree with your earlier comment about the wrong TM policy
11:58 cjb SeanDaly: cool
11:58 dfarning SeanDaly, I am in no hurry.  I am focusing on a few specific customers.  If Ubuntu-Sugar-Remix is unreasonably to Sugar Labs, I will just change the name. to some thing which does not include that word sugar.
11:58 SeanDaly mchua: if you could create the wiki page I could populate it with cases
11:59 walterbender SeanDaly: would it be an extension of http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]demark/Guidelines
11:59 or something different?
11:59 SeanDaly dfarning: thanks for info
11:59 walterbender: great
11:59 cjb SeanDaly: I guess my concern is -- there's a bootstrapping problem here, because if you want *real* case studies, we have to be using some kind of policy to decide them.
11:59 mchua SeanDaly: I can create the wiki page - can you also, when you start putting cases in, make a "this is a template for a case / how to write a case" section, and a "these are the list of case types we are looking for" list? (I'll make stubs for those things on the page, so you can just write them in here)
12:00 SeanDaly cjb: scenarios
12:00 cjb ah, ok, so not real studies
12:00 SeanDaly I've listed some today and in previous meetings and in the e-mail on that topic
12:01 walterbender mchua: for the moment, can you just add a scenario section to the usage guidelines page?
12:01 mchua: I worry about everything getting lost in the wiki...
12:01 SeanDaly I'd say: a well-working TM policy would *encourage* dfarning to license the marks
12:01 mchua walterbender: I'll transclude the case studies page in - I get the feeling this page is going to be a long one.
12:02 walterbender mchua: +1
12:02 SeanDaly transclude is where it diabolically links to another page, automagically?
12:02 cjb includes another page, yeah
12:02 walterbender SeanDaly: like an include
12:02 SeanDaly ok
12:03 my wiki skills remain basic
12:03 mchua that's what I'm here for :)
12:03 among other people
12:03 cjb well, we've got a minute left
12:03 mchua SeanDaly: ok - so 10m after this meeting, the stub will be up for you, can you fill it in and toss a note to iaep
12:03 and then we'll do a status check on that page at our next meeting
12:03 SeanDaly mchua: great
12:03 mchua ok, I'm satisfied with trademark-moving-forward now :)
12:04 walterbender: next meeting: 2010 goals, and the HR and trademark check-ins?
12:04 SeanDaly HR is human resources?
12:05 walterbender #action create a scenario page in the wiki
12:05 SeanDaly IHA (I hate acronyms)
12:06 mchua #action check in on Trademarks scenario page at next meeting, SeanDaly driving
12:06 walterbender Well, as they say on Car Talk each week, you've wasted another hour with us... Actually, we got a lot done today. Thanks.
12:06 mchua We did get a lot done today - I'm very pleased.
12:06 walterbender and thanks to Mel for putting together the pre-meeting notes.
12:06 SeanDaly I love it when those guys groan after hearning systems
12:06 walterbender Same time next week?
12:06 SeanDaly os/systems/symptoms
12:06 cjb mchua: hey, what does "Make progress on a REL-based release of Sugar" mean, on the Goals?
12:07 walterbender can someone take charge of Bernie?
12:07 SeanDaly or they say: "do you love that car?"
12:07 mchua Same time next week probably works for me - I'll be in a hackathon next Friday so I may be pseudohere or absent. Will let y'all know
12:07 walterbender cjb: Redhat Enterprise Linux
12:07 SeanDaly same time ok
12:07 rgs_ walterbender: I am calling bernie.. one sec I'll let him know you guys are looking for him
12:07 mchua but I'll be doing meeting prep again so you folks will know my thoughts ahead of time. ;)
12:07 cjb rgs_: no need for that
12:07 walterbender rgs_: too late :)
12:07 cjb rgs_: the meeting's done now
12:07 mchua not according to meetbot it ain't yet!
12:07 rgs_ cjb: ah.. oops
12:07 walterbender #endmeeting

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