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#sugar-meeting, 2010-01-16

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Time Nick Message
11:10 erikos #TOPIC 0.88 design meeting
11:10 christianmarcsch simon, do you want to start off?
11:10 erikos christianmarcsch: yup
11:10 #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Team/0.88_Meeting
11:11 This is the agenda.
11:11 Maybe, first about the dates (good to have them in mind)
11:11 christianmarcsch great
11:11 walterbender made it :)
11:11 erikos http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]g#Important_Dates
11:11 christianmarcsch feature freeze on Feb 1
11:12 erikos christianmarcsch: yes, so quite close (I moved it already by one week)
11:12 christianmarcsch is there a list of new features for the next release that i can glance at?
11:12 silbe is there any feature not yet accepted?
11:12 erikos silbe: tags in Journal is pending
11:13 silbe erikos: ah, right.
11:13 erikos silbe: and i might propose a simple one (but more about that later)
11:13 christianmarcsch ok
11:13 erikos any questions about the dates?
11:13 christianmarcsch it seems a bit tight
11:13 but we are also meeting late
11:14 erikos christianmarcsch: depending on the how invasive the changes for the home view are
11:14 christianmarcsch erikos: that's true
11:14 erikos christianmarcsch: we might be able to do it until the UI freeze
11:14 christianmarcsch: it is somehow a bugfix
11:15 christianmarcsch i'm curious to see if we are addressing some of the issues we discussed last time
11:15 but let's save that until we cover your agenda
11:15 erikos ok, great
11:15 1) Resume/Start new on the Home View
11:16 as all of you have been following the mailing list discussions, I think I do not have to present the issue again
11:16 christianmarcsch so, the issue is that kids are having a hard time knowing how to start a new activity, once they have started one in the past
11:16 erikos christianmarcsch: right
11:16 christianmarcsch how much evidence do we actually have to support that?
11:16 eben Right, there is no one-click way to start a new activity.
11:17 erikos christianmarcsch: i made a little survey in my Sugar class, and several things happened
11:17 silbe eben: not only not just one click, but it also takes some patience to discover (secondary palette)
11:17 christianmarcsch eben: that's true, though there should be a one-click way if you hold the alt key, no?
11:17 erikos christianmarcsch: but the issue is, how do you know about the alt/key?
11:17 christianmarcsch erikos: i agree
11:17 eben silbe: agreed. The problem is that it's not a primary action anywhere in the UI.
11:18 christianmarcsch well, we came to this design because kids weren't able to resume old activities
11:18 eben christianmarcsch: that's for those in the know, but not a solution to the issue, I think. We don't want to _have_ to teach kids shortcuts like that.
11:18 christianmarcsch so we placed the emphasis on resuming, rather than starting fresh
11:18 eben: i agree with that
11:19 erikos christianmarcsch: yeah, that solved the issue of to many actiivties in the journal
11:19 silbe we might add a way to create a new document (activity session) from within a running (i.e. resumed) activity, but IMO that's stuff for 0.90
11:19 christianmarcsch so, i think we knew that it would de-emphasize starting new activities, but we were comfortable with making resume the default
11:19 erikos christianmarcsch: which was great, but brought new issues
11:19 eben christianmarcsch: I think that was a mistake, in some ways. It's always been my fear that starting a fresh activity would be hard. The problem, I think, is that kids weren't, for various reasons, using the Journal effectively. So we should emphasize it somehow to make it clear the distinction between start/resume.
11:20 christianmarcsch eben: i don't think it was a mistake--i think these are issues we can address
11:20 the most important thing, in my opinion, is to allow resuming
11:20 since you start an activity the first time
11:20 but as i mentioned in the email thread, i think there may be a solution inside the activity itself
11:21 eben christianmarcsch: I think the problem is that neither of these is "more important"...they're just different use cases. So we need a way to expose both paths in a logical manner with equal weight.
11:21 erikos eben: jup, that sounds about right to me
11:21 christianmarcsch i.e., if you click on an activity in the ring (colored, to resume), you might see a dialog inside the activity asking if you'd instead like to start a new activity
11:22 garycmartin christianmarcsch: any solution that requires all activities to change is going to take a long, long time to happen. We aren't even close to catching up with the new toolbar designs.
11:22 eben That further confuses the activity as object idea, it seems.
11:22 christianmarcsch eben: true, though i think we do need to pick a default behavior
11:22 eben: it sounds like a clear and straightforward solution, to me...
11:22 eben I don't...I think we need to make the paths to both more clear from the start, to encourage kids to think about what it is they want to do.
11:23 silbe eben: +1
11:23 christianmarcsch eben, in theory i agree, but you can't expose all functions at once
11:23 not if you want an intuitive design solution ... ;)
11:23 erikos what I did is: when you click on the activity icon, the full palette comes up and you can choose from new or previous instances
11:23 silbe and if we let them to do within an activity, do it really inside (i.e. "Clear" / "Start new" button inside activity palette) rather than inside the loading screen
11:23 erikos that makes it two clicks, though
11:23 christianmarcsch erikos: that, too, sounds like a good solution
11:24 two clicks is something we could live with, i think
11:24 maybe holding "alt" makes it a single click, for more "advanced" users
11:24 eben Though it kind of disintegrates the idea that the palettes should only be necessary for kids who want extra functionality.
11:24 christianmarcsch: right-click always brings palettes up instantly.
11:25 erikos eben: yeah, that is true
11:25 christianmarcsch eben: so, we do need to look for a solution that is consistent with the ui principles
11:25 walterbender Are Gary's sketches not an alternative to two clicks?
11:25 eben erikos: What are the reasons you find that kids don't make use of the Journal for resuming?
11:25 christianmarcsch walterbender: the problem with the sketches is that they duplicate the activity icons
11:25 erikos eben: well, right click - it is hard for the kids to remember that, even so I told them several times, they still just click on the icon
11:25 walterbender eben: too many clicks
11:26 christianmarcsch walterbender: this makes it more confusing, knowing which one to select
11:26 walterbender eben: and not easy to find on non-OLPC-XO Sugar
11:26 erikos eben: yeah, I think - hard to know where the Journal is, is one reason
11:26 eben christianmarcsch: I disagree...they're fundamentally different actions, and the two icons represent different things. I'm not sure about how we'd best show them at the same time, but I think it's logically consistent.
11:26 walterbender christianmarcsch: colored vs grey is a pretty esy heurisitc to learn
11:27 eben So, perhaps the best thing is to find a way to make the Journal friendlier to access/use
11:27 christianmarcsch i don't think duplicating the icon itself will help solve the issue
11:27 eben It really is the perfect place for resuming something, as an ordered list of things you've recently done.
11:27 walterbender if we reach consensus about anything today, I hope it is to always have the journal icon availalble on the home view
11:27 christianmarcsch it's true that color vs. b/w is a differentiator, but it is supposed to be a state of a single object
11:28 erikos eben: I asked the kids "how would you resume an activity" and most of them said: Journal, it means something to them
11:28 eben christianmarcsch: Well, the colored one represents one of many activity instances.
11:28 erikos: That's good to hear!
11:28 christianmarcsch eben: i don't know that we differentiate primarily by activity instance, but rather by activity
11:28 walterbender here is a hair-brained idea I bring up to to make sure it is dismissed: what if the icons where split into two halves: color and grey and depending upon whcih half you click...
11:29 christianmarcsch i guess another option might be to have the other instances "fan-out" on hover over an icon
11:29 silbe walterbender: i think we can agree on that. FWIW I'd always show the Journal below the kid icon, not "the" currently active activity. It makes the Journal take the central place.
11:30 walterbender christianmarcsch: if the secondary palette appeared on hover, that would do a lot...
11:30 erikos silbe: garycmartin offered to make it the one in the ring at the top
11:30 christianmarcsch silbe: that unfortunately breaks the entire ui paradigm of activities associated with XOs
11:30 eben Always showing the Journal under the XO is interesting...
11:30 christianmarcsch not that we shouldn't have the journal in home
11:30 walterbender silbe: I agree. The activity under the XO doesn't really add a lot
11:30 eben But I agree with christianmarcsch that it breaks the paradigm.
11:31 Always showing it in the Home screen seems perfectly logical, though.
11:31 christianmarcsch but let's get back to the main issue for a minute
11:31 silbe walterbender: IMO that's still not prominent enough, though adding color (with all others uncolored) might help there.
11:31 christianmarcsch what if the secondary palette did appear without a delay?
11:31 that would make the other options more discoverable, right?
11:32 walterbender christianmarcsch: I think so.
11:32 eben That still seems like a workaround for the Journal not being accessible.
11:32 walterbender eben:  I think we need both
11:32 erikos eben: well, one could do both
11:32 eben: journal more prominent
11:32 silbe christianmarcsch: i don't think showing a single activity makes a lot of sense to the users anyway
11:32 christianmarcsch eben: we can discuss the journal separately
11:32 walterbender eben: even if the journal were accessible, it is still lots of mousing...
11:32 christianmarcsch but frankly, removing the delay seems like it might just work
11:32 erikos eben: and the palette apear directly
11:33 walterbender eben: if I want to resume the Write I was doing last week, I need to scroll or search... once I actually find the journal...
11:33 eben But it forces use of the palette.
11:33 You completely lose the ability to click directly on an object to enact upon it.
11:33 I really think the whole UI should be usable at a basic level without messing with palettes.
11:33 christianmarcsch eben: you should still be able to click on the object itself, no?
11:34 eben Not if the full palette appears immediately on hover
11:34 erikos eben: christianmarcsch yes, you are still able to click on the icon
11:34 christianmarcsch my feeling is, if there is a simple solution to the problem, them why change the entire UI?
11:34 after all, i think the home view in general is working
11:34 eben The "low floor" should not require a kid to ever see/need a palette.
11:34 christianmarcsch it's true, it would be nice to integrate the journal
11:35 silbe still thinks it makes more sense to keep home screen as a place for starting new work and the Journal for resuming previous work. We "just" need to make the Journal as prominent as the home screen.
11:35 erikos silbe: i think so, too
11:35 eben I see messing about with palettes as changing the paradigm, instead of ensuring that the core UI affords the basic actions needed.
11:35 christianmarcsch silbe: that's a point of view we can still discuss, but it was the impetus for the current design
11:35 in the very first iterations of the design, the journal was the only place to resume activities
11:36 and children were having difficulty
11:36 regarding palettes:
11:36 eben christianmarcsch: But they were having difficulty, it seems, because accessing the Journal is too hard; not because the concept is flawed.
11:37 garycmartin walterbender: if we reverted to "start new" as the default click, we'd still have all the resume items in the palette.
11:37 christianmarcsch to me, they actually may also work better in neighborhood and other views if the delay was a little shorter
11:37 in neighborhood especially, you are really reliant on palettes
11:37 eben garycmartin: right; and for those that don't know/want to use palettes, there's still the Journal.
11:37 christianmarcsch since color is not enough to signify the identity of an XO
11:37 erikos eben: garycmartin +1
11:37 christianmarcsch garycmartin: that is cetainly a possibility
11:38 silbe Too bad there's so few screen real estate on the XO-1. Showing both home screen and Journal in parallel (with easy ways to show either in "full screen") would be a nice way to solve it.
11:38 christianmarcsch that's why i think we need to emphasize one, or the other
11:38 eben christianmarcsch: primary palettes, yes...secondary, not necessarily.
11:38 christianmarcsch eben: OK, agreed
11:39 silbe christianmarcsch: +1, we definitely need a list view for those as well, but that's a different topic of course :)
11:39 christianmarcsch so, what if we took garycmartin's suggestion and made start new the default?
11:39 walterbender so if we make the journal always available and revert to default being new, are were there?
11:39 eben What if the Journal was just always in the ring (or whatever layout)...it's "just another activity", and yet it can't ever be stopped....
11:39 christianmarcsch then resuming an activity would happen in the palette
11:39 eben: +1
11:39 eben So maybe having that one colored icon next to the rest of the gray outlines would even further clarify the idea.
11:39 erikos eben: ++
11:40 christianmarcsch eben: i couldn't agree more ;)
11:40 eben Want to resume a (colored) activity...click on the colored Journal icon in front of you; otherwise, select one of these other things.
11:40 erikos garycmartin: you offered that one, too -- so I guess you agree here as well?
11:41 garycmartin erikos: well it's the best we have so far ;-)
11:41 silbe eben: ok, so let's try that first.
11:41 christianmarcsch i agree with having the journal in the ring, and also think that we *could* set the default behavior to "start new" rather than "resume"
11:41 walterbender eben: OK as long as we keep the secondary palette too
11:41 christianmarcsch but: what if we had an option in the toolbar, to toggle between the two?
11:41 erikos We might want to summarize - and see if we have a first consensus
11:41 christianmarcsch "resume" / "start new"?
11:41 silbe make it the top entry (similar outstanding in other layouts) and the only colored one
11:41 eben Yup....keep the secondary palette for the activities...
11:42 christianmarcsch (eben: didn't we try that at one point?)
11:42 walterbender so the Journal icon would act like gray'd mockup in some sense...
11:42 eben also, you could keep the alt-click to change the ring to resume mode...
11:42 But this should paint clearer paths to new/resume visible from Home.
11:42 christianmarcsch eben: that sounds fine
11:43 walterbender christianmarcsch: +1 to resume/start new since start new is the default for just clicking
11:43 garycmartin Though the coloured Journal icon with all the others in monochrome does look a little odd I think, and it suggests others would colour if currently running (like the top frame). Perhaps we should do that?
11:43 silbe christianmarcsch: what do you mean (option in the toolbar)?
11:43 erikos garycmartin: interesting
11:43 garycmartin: and if you click on it - it would resume?
11:43 christianmarcsch silbe: i meant being able to toggle whether you'd want "start new" or "resume" as the default behavior
11:44 silbe: which would either show gray or color icons, respectively
11:44 garycmartin erikos: if you clicked a coloured icon it would switch to it.
11:44 silbe christianmarcsch: ah, so like the alt key but as a toggle button?
11:44 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i like that idea
11:44 erikos garycmartin: right
11:44 christianmarcsch silbe: yes, exactly
11:44 silbe: they could act like two views, in a palette in the toolbar
11:45 eben So then if any instance of an activity is running, you resume that.....if none are running, you start new?
11:45 christianmarcsch that way, the default would be "start new", but kids would have an easy way to change the perspective
11:45 silbe christianmarcsch: interesting idea. And maybe even with Alt still inverting that choice...
11:45 garycmartin christianmarcsch: it almost adds back something similar to the original ring view showing running activities.
11:45 christianmarcsch garycmartin: yes, i think i like that idea
11:45 garycmartin: it makes a lot of sense
11:46 silbe garycmartin: I think I like it too. But the palette would still show a Start new option?
11:46 christianmarcsch silbe: i think there would have to be
11:46 garycmartin silbe: yes, palette would not change.
11:46 silbe ok, agreed then. :)
11:47 christianmarcsch eben, what do you think about gary's suggestion?
11:47 eben I think it might work. It biases toward only one instance of any activity at a time, but that might be OK.
11:47 christianmarcsch i agree, it might just work
11:47 somehow seems very intuitive
11:48 erikos eben: ahhh, yeah what happens if you have two instances open?
11:48 eben It does kind of encourage the thought that the activity in the ring is the same thing as the running instance....
11:48 christianmarcsch i think the bias towards a single instance could easily be the default
11:48 erikos: well, in that case, you could use the palette to switch between
11:48 silbe eben: That was my first thought exactly. It makes it easier to switch to running activities, though (without the Frame)
11:48 eben Which we wanted to avoid, since the ring is full of "templates"
11:48 christianmarcsch multiple instances seem like a more "advanced" thing to have, anyway
11:48 erikos hmm
11:49 christianmarcsch not to say we shouldn't support them, but it seems fine to have them be selectable in the palette
11:49 (which is what we currently do anyway)
11:49 in the frame, they would still be separated as individual elements
11:49 eben I guess my fear is that it might make kids think that clicking in the ring is the way to resume (but only sometimes! would they know?)
11:49 garycmartin erikos: hmm, could it show the colour of latest one used?
11:49 silbe right, since the most recent are shown we don't have to change any line of code for that :)
11:49 christianmarcsch eben: but you can start a new instance from inside the activity as well, no?
11:50 silbe christianmarcsch: how?
11:50 erikos garycmartin: yeah, though...
11:50 eben christianmarcsch: no
11:50 christianmarcsch silbe: i seem to remember designs where we supported that
11:50 eben an activity IS an object...it doesn't have means for managing other activities inside it.
11:50 christianmarcsch could we add a similar function inside the activity toolbar?
11:50 silbe christianmarcsch: not currently it seems
11:50 erikos I think that proposal puts open activity management to the home view, which it shouldn't
11:51 christianmarcsch not activity management; just starting a new activity fresh
11:51 erikos we put that into the frame - since it is accessible from all the views
11:51 silbe christianmarcsch: that would be the "clear" / "start new" i mentioned above
11:51 christianmarcsch so that kids don't start erasing the old instance (an issue simon pointed out)
11:51 erikos christianmarcsch: and you are able to switch to open instances
11:51 christianmarcsch silbe: in the frame?
11:52 silbe christianmarcsch: no, in the activity toolbar
11:52 eben But that's not a problem if they choose to resume or start new up front, which is the whole design goal here, right?
11:52 christianmarcsch silbe: can you repeat? sorry
11:52 silbe christianmarcsch: 17:23 < silbe> and if we let them to do within an activity, do it really inside (i.e. "Clear" / "Start new" button inside activity palette) rather than inside the loading screen
11:52 christianmarcsch eben: well, that's true, but i can still see a case where someone may already be in an activity, wanting to start a new instance
11:53 erikos eben: well from the ring you can then: start new, switch to an open one, (resume to older entries through the palette)
11:53 christianmarcsch silbe: thanks. i think adding that function in the activity toolbar would help, in addition to whatever changes we make in home
11:53 eben But then they should press the Home key, and start a new one. It's no more steps, and it keeps the distinction clean.
11:54 christianmarcsch eben: i know you are trying to keep it pure, but in this case a parallel pathway may not be a bad thing
11:54 silbe christianmarcsch: +1 and also related to the "Keep" mailing list thread. We should focus on the home screen issue now, though.
11:54 christianmarcsch seeing as you may already be in the scope of the activity sphere
11:54 erikos eben: was the last comment for me?
11:54 eben erikos: ?
11:55 erikos: eben: well from the ring you can then: start new, switch to an open one, (resume to older entries through the palette)
11:55 erikos eben: ok, then maybe not ;p
11:55 ok, I did not get it then ;p
11:55 what you mean by your reply, can you rephrase?
11:55 eben erikos: oh, no...I think we're in agreement.
11:56 christianmarcsch well anyway, regardless of the activity toolbar, garycmartin's suggestion to have the ring reflect current instances seems good. does everyone agree?
11:56 erikos eben: ahh... ;p
11:56 eben I was replying to Christian.
11:56 erikos ok
11:56 eben I'm not entirely convinced yet. :)
11:56 erikos christianmarcsch: not convinced neither ;p
11:56 christianmarcsch i can outline why i like it
11:57 silbe christianmarcsch: i'd say let's give it a chance. it duplicates the frame and makes the home screen impure again (in another way this time), but might work. :)
11:57 eben It leaves the question of what happens when you have two of the same activity, and it seems to just conflate the idea of the top edge of the Frame with the Home view.
11:57 christianmarcsch at startup, all activities will be gray (uninstantiated)
11:57 this serves as a constant reminder of the color/gray differentiation, and gives kids an easy way to start a new instance
11:57 garycmartin eben: yea, I'm seeing the issues.
11:57 christianmarcsch after instances have been started, home gives you a way back in
11:58 garycmartin eben: so if all stay grey, what do we do with the Journal icon, keep it grey as well?
11:58 christianmarcsch i don't see the "redundancy" with the frame as an issue, really
11:58 silbe we should try to make the Frame more accessible (esp. on touchscreen devices) as well, though that's a separate issue again
11:58 eben No, that's the special case.  You can't make a new Journal...it "just is"
11:59 So it would get the special status of being the colored icon in Home, which also serves to highlight it and make it clear that it's the place where colored (instantiated) activities live and can be resumed.
11:59 christianmarcsch if we go the route of all gray icons in home, i'd push for at least having the option to toggle back to "resume" mode in the toolbar
11:59 eben christianmarcsch: permanently? or would alt-click be enough?
12:00 christianmarcsch eben: i'd say permanently
12:00 eben: it's an option
12:00 eben I find resuming from home just discourages proper use of the Journal.
12:01 garycmartin Just thinking, having coloured icons in home that indicate the activity is running and switch to it would prevent kids from starting many activities and running out of ram. Just a thought.
12:01 christianmarcsch eben: i still like the ability to resume from home
12:01 eben (Keeping it in the secondary palettes is still fine with me, but I don't think it needs to be a primary option)
12:01 erikos eben: ++++++
12:01 christianmarcsch just a reminder that resuming *was* the issue that lead us to this design in the first place
12:01 including all the revisions to the frame, etc.
12:01 silbe Crazy idea: Let's merge Journal and home screen. All just a view into the Journal anyway (except for system-installed activities currently), so make the home screen an activity list (uncolored) view of the Journal. Primary toolbar buttons to change the view (to Objects View, Details View, ...)...
12:01 eben Another thought is to add a longer secondary palette to the Journal icon itself, in Home, which shows, say, the most recent 5 activity instances in it for resuming.
12:02 christianmarcsch ok, here's a crazy idea;
12:02 eben That way, even if you don't have an activity in Home view, there's still a quick way to get a "peek" inside the Journal without going there.
12:02 christianmarcsch what if the journal became the toggle for "start new" vs. "resume"?
12:02 i.e., it could be a button in the toolbar
12:02 clicking it would highlight resumable instances in the ring
12:02 eben So you click the Journal icon in the toolbar to enter the Journal...
12:03 And toggle it back off to start new things.
12:03 walterbender christianmarcsch: maybe on icon in the status section?
12:03 christianmarcsch eben: actually, i was thinking more of a toggle, but that could work too
12:03 walterbender: status section?
12:04 walterbender: do you mean the toolbar?
12:04 erikos eben: the nice thing about the current design is, that you get a list of last entries filtered by activity type (in the activity toolbar)
12:04 silbe christianmarcsch: so like my idea, just that it's a toggle button instead of listing all the views in a row?
12:04 eben I think we still need a direct way into the Journal from home.
12:04 erikos eben: in your proposal that would not be the case
12:04 eben erikos: Yeah, I'm suggesting we keep that, but also add a time ordered (not filtered by activity) list to the Journal icon.
12:05 erikos eben: ok
12:05 christianmarcsch silbe: yes, i think
12:06 silbe christianmarcsch: nice idea then ;)
12:06 christianmarcsch eben: so, what if clicking the journal icon in the toolbar takes you into the journal, but on hover the instances turn color in the ring?
12:06 eben on hover of what?
12:06 silbe christianmarcsch: when would that coloring stop?
12:06 christianmarcsch eben: a journal icon in the toolbar
12:06 silbe: on mouseout
12:07 silbe: as a transitory state
12:07 eben I'm not sure what that does for you...
12:07 silbe christianmarcsch: but what use is it then?
12:07 christianmarcsch the purpose of that would be to suggest that there are additional instances embedded in each activity
12:07 that you can invoke by bringing up the palette
12:07 eben But they're not...they're in the Journal.
12:07 christianmarcsch structurally yes
12:07 silbe christianmarcsch: i guess it would confuse users. they might try moving the mouse fast enough to reach the colored icons...
12:07 christianmarcsch but instances are still associated with activities
12:08 eben I'd rather just see the Journal icon in Home view, I think.
12:08 christianmarcsch on an intuitive level
12:08 silbe: you are probably right about that
12:08 eben: OK, agreed
12:08 silbe fetches some ice cream to keep mind working, brb
12:09 christianmarcsch but: i think we should give people the option to select the "start new" or "resume" view
12:09 eben christianmarcsch: Can I hear your argument for the choice, again? :)
12:09 christianmarcsch in other words, we may be changing the default back to start new, but for those people who'd prefer the other view, we should give them a way to invoke it
12:09 eben alt-click. ;)
12:09 christianmarcsch eben: i, for one, would continue to use the "resume" view
12:10 eben: alt-click alone isn't discoverable enough
12:10 eben I think perpetuating Home view as a view for primarily resuming detracts from the Journal.
12:10 christianmarcsch eben: i agree we will have it, but giving an explicit choice in the toolbar will make sure everyone knows it exists
12:10 eben: but again, that is the reason for this design of the home view to begin with
12:10 eben christianmarcsch: But that's OK. There's alt-click, and also secondary palettes.....both alternate (not primary) on purpose, since Home is about starting fresh, and the Journal is about resuming.
12:10 erikos christianmarcsch: could be a choice in the control panel as well
12:10 garycmartin christianmarcsch: how about holding the alt key to enable the resume coloured icon mode (reverse of what we have just now)
12:11 christianmarcsch garycmartin: yes, we should have that
12:11 eben christianmarcsch: Right! And the reason that it doesn't work, I think.
12:11 christianmarcsch all i'm saying is, i think the two views should be interchangeable, and should exists as a toggle
12:11 eben Because if confuses the primary intent of the view.
12:11 christianmarcsch eben: but if that is no longer the basis of the view, i think we would need to go back and question the other design decisions we made, including the frame, and others
12:12 silbe can we mention the alt key in the palette to make it more discoverable?
12:12 christianmarcsch eben: rolling back the last year and a half of UI design
12:12 eben Frame: resume ongoing; Journal: resume old; Home: start new
12:12 silbe wonders what became of dfarnings work on exposing keyboard accelerators...
12:12 erikos christianmarcsch: I wouldn't see it that black ;p
12:12 christianmarcsch i like silbe's suggestion. i just think the two views should be accessible (not only on keycommand)
12:13 eben I think this helps clarify the roles of these parts of the UI.
12:13 christianmarcsch erikos: well, i do think that a large part of the design was predicated on the idea of resuming
12:13 eben: home= resume recent; journal = resume all
12:14 eben: there is an argument to be made for that...
12:14 erikos christianmarcsch: in the home view, but the frame - to make it work for 'opne activity management' was more because it is accessible from all views
12:14 christianmarcsch home being the first thing you see
12:14 eben But it falls down when you realize that "??? = start new", which is why we're discussing this.
12:14 erikos christianmarcsch: compared to when we had the 'open activity management' in the ring
12:14 christianmarcsch erikos: yes, but remember that we used to be able to open new activities from the frame
12:15 eben Placing the Journal icon in Home also makes it one click away, and helps reinforce its purpose.
12:15 erikos christianmarcsch: ohh, right
12:15 christianmarcsch erikos: i don't want to really have this discussion, but i thought that worked quite well in sugar 1.0 ... ;)
12:15 anyway,
12:15 erikos christianmarcsch: but the frame was always up, too... ;p
12:16 christianmarcsch: at least in the home view... ufff ;)))
12:16 christianmarcsch i'm on-board with changing the emphasis of the view to "start new", so long as we still have resume available
12:16 eben christianmarcsch: That design change happened long before the resume/new change, though. I don't think that's affected by this change.
12:16 christianmarcsch as someone said earlier, we need both pathways
12:16 garycmartin erikos: I almost suggested that we always show the frame in home to make the Journal more obvious ;-)
12:16 christianmarcsch it's more a matter of which do we want to prioritize
12:17 eben We need two clear pathways that reinforce the core UI paradigms.
12:17 erikos garycmartin: :)
12:17 christianmarcsch eben: yes
12:17 eben Resuming things from the Journal seems like a core UI paradigm we should reinforce as much as possible, to me.
12:17 christianmarcsch eben: i agree
12:17 erikos I fully agree here
12:17 silbe never disagreed :)
12:17 garycmartin christianmarcsch: resumable in one click, or just secondary palette (or alt key)?
12:17 christianmarcsch eben: but that's not to say we shouldn't have resume of recent items from within home
12:18 garycmartin: i'm really just arguing for a toggle between the two views, "start new" = gray icons; "resume" = colored icons
12:18 eben I think it is, though, and that's my point. But we know where we stand...what does everyone else think?
12:18 christianmarcsch everything else stays as is
12:18 though i'm also on-board with adding the journal icon + palette
12:19 i'll make another case for resume
12:19 the gray icon view might be the more functional for *some* users,
12:19 but it is also devoid of any behavior patters
12:19 silbe i think the thing we have best consensus on for now is reverting to start-new + Journal at top of ring (the only colored one)
12:19 christianmarcsch because it is the starting point, by definition
12:19 eben right
12:19 christianmarcsch what is compelling about the current design is that it shows you, at a glance, what you have been working on
12:20 eben But that's what the Journal's for!
12:20 erikos !!!
12:20 christianmarcsch so if you were to compare two or more sugar home views side by side, they would look different
12:20 reflecting the behavior patterns of different users
12:20 erikos christianmarcsch: for me this is reflected by the Journal best
12:20 silbe merging home view + Journal (in one way or another) might happen for 0.90, with more time to do mockups and prototypes
12:20 walterbender won't alt still show that?
12:20 christianmarcsch the home view was always intended to be a personal space, a space for you, and your "stuff"
12:20 erikos christianmarcsch: from my work in school, the Journal is a paradigm very well understood
12:21 christianmarcsch i'm not saying the journal doesn't fulfill that
12:21 garycmartin must admit I very infrequently visit the Journal any more with the current home resume design
12:21 erikos garycmartin: shame on you!
12:21 christianmarcsch garycmartin: a reason for keeping the current design as an option
12:21 no: gary has a point
12:22 i think there should be parallel pathways to support different user behaviors
12:22 eben But he could use the palette, or alt-click even still.
12:22 christianmarcsch it's not best practice to force everyone into a single mode
12:22 erikos christianmarcsch: actually, the resume/start new was always toggleble
12:22 garycmartin eben: yep, right click palette would be what I'd likely move to.
12:22 erikos christianmarcsch: by a key
12:22 silbe christianmarcsch: of course. but OTOH we should guide the user into best practice.
12:22 christianmarcsch eben: but you know what i'm saying, right? i'm only talking about adding a view selection in thetoolbar
12:22 erikos christianmarcsch: not in the UI though
12:23 christianmarcsch i like the key
12:23 i think we need a view toggle in addition, in the toolbar
12:23 erikos christianmarcsch: we could have that option in the Control Panel
12:23 christianmarcsch non-invasive,
12:23 just present for those users who would want a persistent switch (rather than the temporal alt-toggle)
12:23 silbe christianmarcsch: what about making it an alternate view instead of a toggle button?
12:23 christianmarcsch silbe: that would be fine, too
12:24 eben I think I'm just arguing that we should push on clear and simple pathway for kids, and then they can discover (or be taught) these alternatives which exist as shortcuts, but not as an alternate UI paradigm for the view.
12:24 garycmartin christianmarcsch: we did have a check box for a while in 0.85.x for a bit.
12:24 christianmarcsch erikos: the control panel seems to far removed, as to that it would be used at all i fear
12:24 eben: it's not an alternate paradigm, only a different view
12:24 erikos christianmarcsch: ok, having it as a toggle in the view itself would work for me, too
12:24 christianmarcsch i think this view could exist alongside the list view, for instance
12:24 erikos tomeu: technically, hard to do, I guess not?
12:25 christianmarcsch it really wants to be a view, not a control panel option
12:25 in terms of accessibility
12:25 erikos likes to check if tomeu was listening all the time :)
12:25 eben Well, right now it's an option in the palette for the view icon in the toolbar.
12:25 christianmarcsch eben: we will still have a clear and simple pathway
12:25 tomeu erikos: you mean reapplying the patch we reverted?
12:25 garycmartin silbe: you mean a 3rd top right toolbar icon, a coloured frogs egg icon?
12:25 eben That makes sense, if we keep it.
12:25 christianmarcsch silbe, garycmartin: i like that idea
12:25 silbe garycmartin: exactly
12:26 erikos tomeu: I was looking for it the other day
12:26 eben That suggests it's a totally different view...it's still just a variant on this view, though.
12:26 erikos tomeu: to add an option to switch behavior and refresh the view
12:26 christianmarcsch eben: honestly, i think either could work, as long as it's treated as a view
12:26 silbe we need non-rodent ways to switch views, but that's a different issue again
12:27 eben: IMO it _is_ a totally different view
12:27 christianmarcsch a third icon with a colored circle sounds great, as a toggle
12:27 erikos tomeu: or add another view i guess (like they offer now)
12:27 eben Well, making it separate has other larger implications...can you select a different layout? Can you rearrange the icons differently, can they have different activities in them? etc. That's a bigger ball of wax.
12:27 tomeu erikos: we just need to revert the commit that reverted it
12:27 silbe eben: I'd even hide the activities that don't have resumable instances
12:27 tomeu erikos: we even had a gconf option
12:27 eben silbe: But it's one that should just be the Journal, in my opinion. :)
12:27 erikos tomeu: right, we still have
12:28 tomeu: though non-working now ;p
12:28 christianmarcsch i wouldn't split too many hairs over whether its a separate view, or a toggle of a current view
12:28 silbe eben: that's why i suggested merging both :)
12:28 christianmarcsch i think either could work
12:28 that's the kind of thing that we could best work through in design mockups
12:28 i'd be happy to mock something up, to help clarify the different options
12:28 eben christianmarcsch: How about a checkbox in control panel for "start me in the Journal"?
12:29 christianmarcsch eben: again, i think that is too removed. i think the option wants to be available within the home view
12:29 eben: it's one of those things. in control panel, it wouldn't be used
12:29 eben: are you worried about real-estate in the toolbar?
12:30 garycmartin christianmarcsch: FWIW I think the check box in the existing palette worked fine, I was suprised when it disapeared for the release.
12:30 eben No, I'm worried about taking the Journal's function out the Journal, and confusing the purpose of the view.
12:30 silbe christianmarcsch: agreed (CP -> won't get used). Some kids will explore it to its depths, but others will be afraid to break anything.
12:30 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i could live with the checkbox, though i tend to think a separate view option would be even more clear
12:30 eben But I guess if the other is the default it would be OK. I just don't see the argument for keeping the permanent toggle.
12:31 christianmarcsch eben: to see the value, you have to believe that the current home view is doing some things right
12:31 which i do!
12:31 in other words, we are simply opening up the option to have either experience, depending on which you would prefer
12:32 while setting the default to "start new", which should alleviate the issues for "beginners"
12:32 the ease of resuming the last activity from home is something worth preserving
12:33 to throw that out entirely, because some people are having trouble starting a new instance, seems unnecessary
12:33 eben ok
12:34 christianmarcsch if it's ok, i can mock up the options
12:34 then we can take another look
12:34 eben No, that's fine, really. Let's nail consensus and Make Things Happen. :)
12:35 christianmarcsch sounds good
12:35 garycmartin christianmarcsch: One down side to options is potential confusions for a teacher, different kids have fiddled with the behaviour and no some general class given actione puts different kids in different states.
12:35 silbe do we have consensus about view vs. toggle?
12:35 still prefers a view ;)
12:36 eben 1) Add Journal to Home view, colored 2) default to "start new" mode in home 3) Keep the "start new"/"resume recent" toggle in the palette for the view 4) Keep the alt-click shortcut to toggle the view 5) keep the palette behaviors as they are 6) Add a list of the n most recent activities to the Journal's secondary palette.
12:36 silbe garycmartin: we already have that with layouts and views
12:36 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i'll keep that in mind. i think it needs to be clearly designated, so that the teacher can have everyone on the same page
12:36 erikos oook...
12:36 eben silbe: I think it needs to remain a toggle, as in the previous design.
12:36 erikos should we summarize this topic?
12:36 1) revert back to 'start new by default'
12:36 2) keep the resume options as secondary options in the palette
12:37 eben erikos: ^^^
12:37 erikos 3) the Journal as icon at the top of the ring
12:37 - containing the last entries of the Journal
12:37 silbe eben: hmm, i'd still prefer "Start new" as appearing first in the palette (which it currently doesn't IIRC)
12:37 erikos - in the palette
12:37 eben silbe: It should in "start new" mode.
12:37 erikos uups, I had a network delay :/
12:38 eben It's at the bottom in "resume recent" mode
12:38 silbe eben: ok, good point
12:38 christianmarcsch the summary sounds fine to me
12:38 eben ...so the "primary action" of clicking the icon is the first in the list.
12:38 christianmarcsch eben: that makes sense
12:39 garycmartin eben +1
12:39 silbe eben: should the primary palette show the name of the first Journal entry then?
12:39 eben Only in resume mode
12:39 silbe oh, it already does...
12:40 eben In start mode, it should be the name of the activity itself
12:40 silbe: :)
12:40 christianmarcsch erikos: what are our next steps?
12:40 garycmartin Next topic erikos?
12:40 silbe eben: agreed on your summary then
12:41 erikos just a quick comment on garycmartin comment about the teacher being confused if kids have switched
12:41 i think it is a good point - and maybe an option in the CP is the better one for that reason
12:41 ok, next one
12:41 silbe can we add the consensus to the minutes (#agreed IIRC)?
12:42 christianmarcsch silbe: from my side, yes
12:42 erikos silbe: yes
12:42 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]eeting#3G_Support
12:42 silbe #agreed Add Journal to Home view, colored
12:42 #agreed default to "start new" mode in home
12:42 #agreed Keep the "start new"/"resume recent" toggle in the palette for the view
12:42 #agreed Keep the alt-click shortcut to toggle the view
12:42 #agreed keep the palette behaviors as they are
12:43 #agreed Add a list of the n most recent activities to the Journal's secondary palette.
12:43 (hope meeting takes orders from me)
12:43 erikos silbe: thanks!
12:43 the current design of the 3G Feature is at: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Support#UI_Design
12:44 they basically need an icon
12:44 silbe it didn't :-/ well, then log only.
12:44 erikos silbe: I can post it to the ml later
12:44 silbe erikos: ok, thx!
12:45 eben UI here looks good, though I have a few minor suggestions.
12:45 erikos listens
12:45 eben I think disconnect should use an icon just like other network devices.
12:46 We could show the connection time in the primary palette, eg. "connected for 02:22" instead; I could go either way.
12:46 christianmarcsch eben: +1
12:46 garycmartin eben: +1
12:46 eben And the right-aligned layout of the control panel section seems a bit funny
12:47 christianmarcsch i'd suggest at least moving everything over to the left, and having the labels be left-aligned (not centered)
12:47 eben Is data sent/received important (it might in fact be...I don't use 3G modems/devices)
12:47 garycmartin christianmarcsch: +1
12:47 eben: cost is the issue there!
12:47 eben garycmartin: right, ok. :) I suspected that might be the reason.
12:48 Maybe that could be made a little friendlier with some simple [UP] 23kb     [DOWN] 31 kb
12:48 silbe eben: it is, at least to some users
12:48 eben (where [UP] and [DOWN] are icons
12:48 silbe eben: there are volume-based tariffs
12:48 eben yup, gotcha
12:49 garycmartin eben: You mentioned you had some icon designs already (email thread)?
12:49 eben I did, huh? When was that (maybe I do....I don't recall).
12:49 I think, last we discussed, it was suggested that a cell phone icon would be the clearest, even though it isn't necessarily true.
12:50 garycmartin eben: how about the USB icon with some wireless arcs at one end/corner?
12:51 eben that could work...
12:51 Kids won't know the USB icon, but will kids be using this feature?
12:53 garycmartin eben: I think often the 3G devices is that shape, at least the ones I've seen. I've net seen a physical phone teathering via USB myself.
12:53 is loosing the ability to hit keys :-)
12:54 erikos oh, we need to hurry then a bit... ;p
12:54 eben garycmartin: interesting...I've only ever seen the USB phone tethering. :)
12:55 OK. Well, I can just take the task of mocking up a couple of icons. I can try the USB/waves and the phone and we can go from there.
12:55 erikos garycmartin: usb is not only the best differentior, as there are other 3G crds
12:55 garycmartin eben: Happy to make a SVG of the USB stick if you want to try a phone looking one? We can then see what they like. We should use the same icon in bothe the frame and the CP.
12:55 erikos cards
12:55 garycmartin: eben thanks, that sounds great
12:55 eben garycmartin: I made most of those icons. ;) I've got them around.
12:55 erikos next item then
12:56 Write to Journal anytime
12:56 eben Oh, I see what you mean. :-P
12:56 christianmarcsch erikos: can you explain?
12:56 eben Yeah, that sounds good. We'll each try one.
12:56 erikos christianmarcsch: sure
12:56 garycmartin eben: don't worry, I'll just use your SVG, shrink it a little / re-position, and add some arcs ;-)
12:56 erikos christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Description.png
12:57 christianmarcsch: this is an option that would solve the issue
12:57 christianmarcsch: the issue is, that the naming alert is disruptive
12:57 eben christianmarcsch: an alternate summary is "edit description from within activity"
12:57 erikos christianmarcsch: and you need many clicks to close an activity
12:57 christianmarcsch oh, i see
12:57 so this is about naming an activity instance?
12:58 eben erikos: I see utility in editing the description, but this isn't actually a solution to the naming alert.
12:58 silbe to raise the issue again: how about switching to the Journal details view instead, like we do for downloads?
12:58 christianmarcsch sorry, i have to take a quick 15 minute break
12:58 eben erikos: as designed, titling the activity before stopping should prevent the naming alert from appearing, so this is still an extra feature.
12:58 christianmarcsch i'll be back shortly
12:58 erikos christianmarcsch: setting the description and adding tags, like you would do in the Journal
12:58 silbe the space for the description looks quite smallish in the mockup
12:59 erikos eben: the current behavior is like you describe it
12:59 eben In the mockup, what is the b/w Journal icon?
12:59 silbe ok, do we want to take a break now then? we've gone on for quite some time, a bit fresh air might not be a bad idea.
12:59 garycmartin silbe, I wish we could also make use of the Journal details view as well, needs careful thought though (I'm not there yet).
12:59 eben erikos: OK, so this really isn't a solution to the naming alert in any way, right? But it is a worthy feature to consider in its own right
12:59 erikos silbe: would be ok with me
13:00 eben: well, you might be right in some way ;p
13:00 silbe eben: it was proposed as an alternative to the naming alert IIRC. I.e. if it gets implemented we'd throw out the naming alert.
13:00 eben silbe: Yeah, that's a thought....if instead of the naming alert it just takes you into the Journal details for that item....
13:00 erikos eben: it arised from a way to get rid of the naming alert
13:01 silbe: i would definitely prefer that then the naing alert
13:01 silbe eben: you mean after stopping the activity? great idea!
13:01 eben silbe: yeah, on stop of an unnamed/new activityy
13:01 erikos eben: maybe I can give you some feedback from the field
13:02 eben It's not really any less obtrusive, but it helps teach about the Journal.
13:02 likes feedback
13:02 erikos eben: in my class I disabled the naming alert
13:02 silbe eben, garycmartin, erikos: how much time do you have? would a break be fine with you, so christianmarcsch can join into the discussion?
13:02 garycmartin eben +1, but we need to make the details view more obvious to get out of
13:03 erikos eben: bt what I do is I ask the kids to add details in every lesson
13:03 garycmartin silbe: break would be good for me, I need more hot tea :-)
13:03 erikos eben: that way they use the Journal for reflection
13:03 garycmartin goes to put the kettle on
13:03 eben erikos: and resuming, we hope. ;)
13:03 erikos eben: that is why 'switching to journal' vs the naming alert would be an improvement for me
13:04 eben: of course ;p
13:04 silbe gets some fresh air and lemonade
13:04 erikos silbe: ok lets break here for 10 minutes
13:04 eben: fine with you, too?
13:04 eben OK, so resuming at 10 after, maybe?
13:04 yup
13:05 erikos awesome
13:11 christianmarcsch i'm back
13:11 anyone here?
13:14 garycmartin waves
13:14 christianmarcsch hi!
13:14 looks like some people are still breaking?
13:15 garycmartin christianmarcsch: yea, I think another 5min and they'll be back.
13:15 christianmarcsch sounds good
13:15 erikos back too
13:15 walterbender needs to tune out in a few minutes :(
13:16 christianmarcsch i, too, need to go soon
13:16 erikos walterbender: I will report the results on the ml
13:16 silbe is back
13:16 christianmarcsch maybe we can try to wrap up the naming discussion?
13:16 eben is back
13:17 christianmarcsch great, looks like we are all here
13:18 so, i actually don't mind the proposal to have naming be optional
13:18 garycmartin erikos: FWIW I'm not sold on the extra description / tag palettes yet. I can't see them being used very often and it's another thing we would need to get activity developers to add and conform to.
13:18 eben garycmartin: isn't the activity toolbar system-supplied?
13:19 erikos garycmartin: well, it would be part of the activity palette (system supplied)
13:19 silbe i agree the naming dialog is bad and ebens suggestion to switch to the Journal details view after stopping makes a lot of sense to me
13:19 christianmarcsch garycmartin: that's the problem, i guess. how do we make them more discoverable?
13:19 silbe: eben's suggestion sounds good to me
13:19 garycmartin erikos: I know I'm needing to customise some of mine, Walter's TA does as well.
13:20 erikos garycmartin: ok, I see
13:20 eben erikos: I think the best way to handle in-activity adjustments would be with a tag icon, which revealed a palette with both description and tagging controls.
13:20 But I can also see replacing the naming alert with a trip to the details view of the Journal.
13:20 christianmarcsch eben: a trip to the journal sounds fine, and reinforces its role
13:20 eben Those are basically orthogonal.
13:21 christianmarcsch: right
13:21 silbe as for extending the activity toolbar, I don't think the additional metadata fits well there. Either the dropdowns would be bulky or simply too small to be useful.
13:21 eben Though that's still just for "new" activities...I can still see desire to be able to tag/describe within the activity as a project moves along.
13:21 erikos eben: so: the activity title we would move it out, too?
13:21 silbe eben: +1 on orthogonality
13:21 eben silbe: I agree with the "bulky or too small" comment, but I don't see bulky as an issue.
13:21 garycmartin erikos: tomeu is the technical issue that looses any edits made in the Journal while the activity is currently running something we can resolve?
13:21 erikos eben: and have just a switch to journal icon?
13:22 garycmartin: yes, I will code that in the next days
13:22 eben That's, in part, the reason for palettes....to provide contextual "windows" any size needed for the feature they provide.
13:22 silbe eben: oh, I'd do that (switching to details view) on every stop, not just the first. That has bugged me about the naming dialog all the time...
13:23 erikos silbe: hmmm
13:23 eben silbe: hmmm, while I see it as beneficial the first time, I'm afraid doing it every time could be quite frustrating.
13:23 silbe garycmartin: we can, I might even work on it (it gets more easy if my "clean-up" patches get merged, though)
13:24 eben: For me it's a way of reflecting on what I just finished.
13:24 eben I'm not sure this was answered before: what's the black/white journal icon in the mockup?
13:25 erikos eben: it says export
13:25 eben: rich text/pdf
13:25 silbe eben: The dialog was annoying in that I couldn't look at it again if I didn't remember too well. While the activity toolbar stuff would do that one even better, in the details view I at least have the option of resuming right again (whereas in the dialog I was stuck)
13:25 garycmartin eben: Ohh that's me that is (just realised it's Write) :-)
13:26 eben erikos: hmmm, I thought those things were placed in the keep palette..."Keep as PDF"
13:26 garycmartin eben: it's the custom export options as erikos just mentioned. Some activities are now using separate icons for each (see TA), I'm not sure which is best.
13:27 eben I tend to think the items in the activity toolbar should be fixed and consistent.
13:27 With all of the "add this to the journal in another format" options in the keep palette.
13:28 And what's the home icon there for? (I really need to get a new Sugar installed!)
13:28 erikos eben: can we discuss this in another thread?
13:28 eben ok
13:28 erikos eben: to not loose focuse too much ;p
13:28 silbe eben: sharing
13:28 eben Oh, right. :) Duh.
13:29 silbe eben: and yes, i recommend installing Sugar so you can actually give it a try :-P
13:29 erikos ok - lets try: naming alert
13:29 garycmartin eben: they were in the Keep palette, but Keep is confusing everyone. I think Walter started the trend to separate out the export types as individual items, so blame him ;-b
13:29 erikos does everyone agree that directly going to the detail journal view is a good thing to do?
13:30 christianmarcsch i agree
13:30 erikos and get rid of the naming alert
13:30 eben Maybe keep should not have a primary action. And only open the palette on click with things like "keep new version", "keep a copy", "keep as PDF" etc listed clearly....but I'll wait for another thread. :)
13:30 silbe eben: if you tune in on #sugar some time, i can try walking you through some way of getting Sugar onto your computer.
13:30 eben erikos: I agree for new activities, but not on every stop...
13:30 garycmartin +1, just need to keep in mind to make the details view obvious to escape from.
13:30 erikos eben: that would have been my next question ;p
13:31 silbe erikos: agreed on -naming alert, +switch to details view
13:31 christianmarcsch eben: yes, i agree with that. just new activities
13:31 silbe eben: +1 on keep without primary
13:31 erikos garycmartin: is escaping not simple enough at the moment?
13:32 silbe what about adding a toolbar button to switch to the details view in order to edit metadata while the activity is running?
13:32 (open issue: how to get back)
13:32 garycmartin erikos: no. It says Back just now in a slightly non standard strop button below the toolbar.
13:32 eben silbe: I would actually prefer a "tag/describe" palette, I think.
13:32 But a "view in Journal" button could also work.
13:32 erikos btw: what would be the behavior when I close an activity (that has already metadata): go to the next open activity, go to home screen...?
13:33 garycmartin erikos: "back" to where, if users are landing there  after an activity "Stop"
13:33 eben I'm just afraid of having another button being confused with keep/save/journal, and think that it also takes you out of the activity context making it more awkward to continue afterward.
13:34 erikos garycmartin: hmmmmm
13:34 silbe eben: the palettes would be better than nothing, of course. And having both would be an option as well.
13:34 eben erikos: I would say next open activity, if you have one, otherwise home
13:34 garycmartin erikos: Currently it moves back down the line of open Activities, but I think I'd like to go back to home each time.
13:34 erikos garycmartin: or the behavior eben describes
13:34 silbe eben: the "filtering" Journal designs used a special icon at least for tags, maybe that would work?
13:34 eben garycmartin: My fear there is that kids could forget they have other activities running
13:34 erikos garycmartin:  next open activity, if you have one, otherwise home
13:35 eben It seems we should encourage continuation of existing activities over starting new ones.
13:35 silbe: Yeah, that's the icon I'd like to see for the tag/desc palette.
13:36 silbe eben: so you'd do a single palette for both tags and description?
13:36 eben silbe: yeah, they're closely related, and also adjacent in the Journal.
13:37 erikos can we first finish the 'go to journal detail view' ?
13:37 silbe eben: i'm still worrying about size constraints
13:37 eben Also, I'd like to encourage kids to add both
13:37 erikos not sure we are through this yet
13:37 eben silbe: It shouldn't be a problem...the palette can be as big as necessary, I think.
13:37 oh, sorry
13:38 silbe eben: the details view has both as well, so fine with me for now
13:38 erikos so the back button in the details view after you closed an activity (first time), where does it brings you to?
13:39 silbe erikos: i think there was consensus about -naming alert, +switch to details view on first close (if title not set by user yet)
13:39 erikos silbe: yup, but not about the back button
13:39 eben erikos: Journal
13:39 erikos eben: like it does all the time
13:39 eben It should work "normally"
13:39 yeah
13:39 christianmarcsch eben: yes
13:40 erikos eben: though, currently the data is saved on 'back' as for all i know
13:40 eben: and if a kid just uses the frame to go to another activity?
13:40 eben That puts you in the perfect place to click on any other recent activities, including any already running
13:40 silbe erikos: it's saved on focus-out
13:40 erikos silbe: ok, great then
13:40 eben erikos: This (transfer to Journal details) only happens on stop
13:40 erikos eben: jup i know
13:41 eben Or, if they're in details, they can press the home key, or use the frame to move around, etc.
13:41 No special behavior.
13:41 erikos eben: sounds good to me
13:41 silbe oh nice, netsplit :-/
13:41 erikos gar.... :/
13:41 eben bah
13:41 erikos christianmarcsch: still there?
13:41 christianmarcsch yes, still here
13:41 erikos ok, so we lost only gary
13:41 christianmarcsch but i think i may need to leave soon...
13:42 i think all sounds good, though
13:42 silbe gary lost? :(
13:42 christianmarcsch hmm
13:42 erikos christianmarcsch: we made a lot of improvements!
13:42 shall we then decide now - how we go from here?
13:42 christianmarcsch yes, i agree
13:43 erikos (people that wish to - can still keep on discussing of course)
13:43 silbe the naming alert stuff is finished, I think
13:43 christianmarcsch yes, let's talk about next steps
13:43 erikos silbe: yup
13:43 silbe what's open is showing more metadata in-activity
13:44 i guess we need more mockups there anyway
13:44 christianmarcsch is the groups view being addressed in the upcoming build?
13:44 erikos christianmarcsch: not at all
13:44 eben christianmarcsch: Yeah, that's long overdue for some love.
13:44 christianmarcsch and what about bulletin board?
13:44 eben We should definitely put that on the schedule for next time (we keep saying that)...
13:44 silbe christianmarcsch: patches welcome :-P
13:44 christianmarcsch yes...
13:45 erikos christianmarcsch: to be honest, we can try to do it for 0.90
13:45 eben christianmarcsch: I think bulletin-board is mostly being handled as an activity, but we should revisit overlay chat!
13:45 christianmarcsch the focus always tends to be on home view, which is important, but we should try to get to some of these other issues as well
13:45 eben: ah, yes
13:45 erikos christianmarcsch: yup
13:45 christianmarcsch: i still hope that we could do those design meetings more regularly
13:45 silbe that leaves font config, thumbs view, color selector and tags (Journal) for the next meeting
13:45 christianmarcsch can someone remind me which build number we are up to?
13:45 silbe can we do one next week?
13:45 eben activty-wide chat would be wonderful....and we have some mockups we can revisit and publish as a feature for .90
13:45 erikos christianmarcsch: and that we get a better and static process going
13:46 christianmarcsch right
13:46 silbe christianmarcsch: I don't think there are build numbers anymore
13:46 christianmarcsch i'm available for another meeting next weekend, same time...
13:46 eben thumb_view++, btw.
13:46 erikos eben: sounds good to me
13:46 alsroot: eben likes thumbs view!!!
13:46 christianmarcsch thumb view?
13:46 erikos christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]s_View_in_Journal
13:46 eben christianmarcsch http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Thumbs.png
13:47 christianmarcsch ah yes
13:47 very nice
13:47 alsroot since thumbs was already discussed last release cycle, I guess we can skip this topic
13:47 christianmarcsch it looks great
13:47 i also remember doing mockups for the list view
13:47 erikos christianmarcsch: it is even implemeneted
13:47 christianmarcsch: just needs to be moved over to the latest code
13:47 christianmarcsch erikos: good to know. i need to get the latest version installed
13:48 erikos: i see
13:48 silbe thumb views looks good to me as well, so maybe lets just agree on it now?
13:48 eben It's basically the mockup we made before, minus the checkboxes (since we don't have multi-select yet)
13:48 christianmarcsch thumbs looks really good
13:48 silbe alsroot: it still looks like in the mockup, does it?
13:48 eben Actually, I think a combination of that and this (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]:Journal-10.jpeg) would be good. I think we need the bold titles, and the extra space this number of items allows...but anyway....next week we can discuss it in detail.
13:48 silbe oh the stars are for selection, not favourites?
13:48 christianmarcsch right, the checkboxes would be great to add once we can multi-select
13:48 alsroot silbe: nope, it was implemented, and I'm adapting them right now
13:49 erikos garycmartin: is back!
13:49 christianmarcsch hmm, the arrows look different
13:49 garycmartin sorry IRC servers stoped responding for a while
13:49 alsroot silbe: stars for staring only
13:49 erikos oups :(
13:49 silbe poor gary...
13:49 christianmarcsch should we save this for next weekend then?
13:50 silbe ok, let's move it then
13:50 christianmarcsch one thing that has always bothered me is that the dropdowns look huge
13:50 isn't there anything we can do about that?
13:50 eben Yeah...that's a thorn in my side.
13:50 erikos would you guys be available next week?
13:50 eben I'm available.
13:50 christianmarcsch i'm available too
13:51 silbe too probably
13:51 eben Would an earlier start be possible for everyone?
13:51 silbe sure
13:51 garycmartin I could make it.
13:51 eben say 10EST instead of 11EST?
13:51 christianmarcsch i could perhaps do 10:30
13:51 silbe so 15UTC?
13:51 christianmarcsch can we say 15:30UTC?
13:51 erikos eben: works for me
13:52 garycmartin fine here.
13:52 silbe christianmarcsch: just the same to me
13:52 christianmarcsch 10:30 then? eben?
13:52 eben That would work, too....especially if we can keep them to about an hour by having them more often....weekly, even.
13:53 christianmarcsch yes, i'd prefer that too--shorter, and more often
13:53 erikos eben: +1
13:53 eben Sounds good.
13:53 erikos ok so next week at 15:30
13:53 UTC
13:54 I will post minutes about the decisions from today
13:54 christianmarcsch great
13:54 talk to you next week!
13:54 erikos is very happy!
13:54 garycmartin Sorry I lost connection for the end (will read the log)
13:54 erikos christianmarcsch: enjoy your weekend
13:54 silbe see you all next week (and some tomorrow :) )
13:54 christianmarcsch erikos: thanks, you too! productive session today
13:54 garycmartin thanks all, nice to meet up again at last!
13:54 erikos thanks to everyone!!!
13:54 christianmarcsch thanks everyone
13:55 eben bye, everyone
13:55 christianmarcsch bye
13:55 silbe bye
13:55 wooah, almost 3 hours of meeting...
13:56 and a good one, of course.
13:57 erikos silbe: hehe
14:01 #endmeeting

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