| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 11:10 | erikos | #TOPIC 0.88 design meeting |
| 11:10 | christianmarcsch | simon, do you want to start off? |
| 11:10 | erikos | christianmarcsch: yup |
| 11:10 | #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Team/0.88_Meeting | |
| 11:11 | This is the agenda. | |
| 11:11 | Maybe, first about the dates (good to have them in mind) | |
| 11:11 | christianmarcsch | great |
| 11:11 | walterbender | made it :) |
| 11:11 | erikos | http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]g#Important_Dates |
| 11:11 | christianmarcsch | feature freeze on Feb 1 |
| 11:12 | erikos | christianmarcsch: yes, so quite close (I moved it already by one week) |
| 11:12 | christianmarcsch | is there a list of new features for the next release that i can glance at? |
| 11:12 | silbe | is there any feature not yet accepted? |
| 11:12 | erikos | silbe: tags in Journal is pending |
| 11:13 | silbe | erikos: ah, right. |
| 11:13 | erikos | silbe: and i might propose a simple one (but more about that later) |
| 11:13 | christianmarcsch | ok |
| 11:13 | erikos | any questions about the dates? |
| 11:13 | christianmarcsch | it seems a bit tight |
| 11:13 | but we are also meeting late | |
| 11:14 | erikos | christianmarcsch: depending on the how invasive the changes for the home view are |
| 11:14 | christianmarcsch | erikos: that's true |
| 11:14 | erikos | christianmarcsch: we might be able to do it until the UI freeze |
| 11:14 | christianmarcsch: it is somehow a bugfix | |
| 11:15 | christianmarcsch | i'm curious to see if we are addressing some of the issues we discussed last time |
| 11:15 | but let's save that until we cover your agenda | |
| 11:15 | erikos | ok, great |
| 11:15 | 1) Resume/Start new on the Home View | |
| 11:16 | as all of you have been following the mailing list discussions, I think I do not have to present the issue again | |
| 11:16 | christianmarcsch | so, the issue is that kids are having a hard time knowing how to start a new activity, once they have started one in the past |
| 11:16 | erikos | christianmarcsch: right |
| 11:16 | christianmarcsch | how much evidence do we actually have to support that? |
| 11:16 | eben | Right, there is no one-click way to start a new activity. |
| 11:17 | erikos | christianmarcsch: i made a little survey in my Sugar class, and several things happened |
| 11:17 | silbe | eben: not only not just one click, but it also takes some patience to discover (secondary palette) |
| 11:17 | christianmarcsch | eben: that's true, though there should be a one-click way if you hold the alt key, no? |
| 11:17 | erikos | christianmarcsch: but the issue is, how do you know about the alt/key? |
| 11:17 | christianmarcsch | erikos: i agree |
| 11:17 | eben | silbe: agreed. The problem is that it's not a primary action anywhere in the UI. |
| 11:18 | christianmarcsch | well, we came to this design because kids weren't able to resume old activities |
| 11:18 | eben | christianmarcsch: that's for those in the know, but not a solution to the issue, I think. We don't want to _have_ to teach kids shortcuts like that. |
| 11:18 | christianmarcsch | so we placed the emphasis on resuming, rather than starting fresh |
| 11:18 | eben: i agree with that | |
| 11:19 | erikos | christianmarcsch: yeah, that solved the issue of to many actiivties in the journal |
| 11:19 | silbe | we might add a way to create a new document (activity session) from within a running (i.e. resumed) activity, but IMO that's stuff for 0.90 |
| 11:19 | christianmarcsch | so, i think we knew that it would de-emphasize starting new activities, but we were comfortable with making resume the default |
| 11:19 | erikos | christianmarcsch: which was great, but brought new issues |
| 11:19 | eben | christianmarcsch: I think that was a mistake, in some ways. It's always been my fear that starting a fresh activity would be hard. The problem, I think, is that kids weren't, for various reasons, using the Journal effectively. So we should emphasize it somehow to make it clear the distinction between start/resume. |
| 11:20 | christianmarcsch | eben: i don't think it was a mistake--i think these are issues we can address |
| 11:20 | the most important thing, in my opinion, is to allow resuming | |
| 11:20 | since you start an activity the first time | |
| 11:20 | but as i mentioned in the email thread, i think there may be a solution inside the activity itself | |
| 11:21 | eben | christianmarcsch: I think the problem is that neither of these is "more important"...they're just different use cases. So we need a way to expose both paths in a logical manner with equal weight. |
| 11:21 | erikos | eben: jup, that sounds about right to me |
| 11:21 | christianmarcsch | i.e., if you click on an activity in the ring (colored, to resume), you might see a dialog inside the activity asking if you'd instead like to start a new activity |
| 11:22 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: any solution that requires all activities to change is going to take a long, long time to happen. We aren't even close to catching up with the new toolbar designs. |
| 11:22 | eben | That further confuses the activity as object idea, it seems. |
| 11:22 | christianmarcsch | eben: true, though i think we do need to pick a default behavior |
| 11:22 | eben: it sounds like a clear and straightforward solution, to me... | |
| 11:22 | eben | I don't...I think we need to make the paths to both more clear from the start, to encourage kids to think about what it is they want to do. |
| 11:23 | silbe | eben: +1 |
| 11:23 | christianmarcsch | eben, in theory i agree, but you can't expose all functions at once |
| 11:23 | not if you want an intuitive design solution ... ;) | |
| 11:23 | erikos | what I did is: when you click on the activity icon, the full palette comes up and you can choose from new or previous instances |
| 11:23 | silbe | and if we let them to do within an activity, do it really inside (i.e. "Clear" / "Start new" button inside activity palette) rather than inside the loading screen |
| 11:23 | erikos | that makes it two clicks, though |
| 11:23 | christianmarcsch | erikos: that, too, sounds like a good solution |
| 11:24 | two clicks is something we could live with, i think | |
| 11:24 | maybe holding "alt" makes it a single click, for more "advanced" users | |
| 11:24 | eben | Though it kind of disintegrates the idea that the palettes should only be necessary for kids who want extra functionality. |
| 11:24 | christianmarcsch: right-click always brings palettes up instantly. | |
| 11:25 | erikos | eben: yeah, that is true |
| 11:25 | christianmarcsch | eben: so, we do need to look for a solution that is consistent with the ui principles |
| 11:25 | walterbender | Are Gary's sketches not an alternative to two clicks? |
| 11:25 | eben | erikos: What are the reasons you find that kids don't make use of the Journal for resuming? |
| 11:25 | christianmarcsch | walterbender: the problem with the sketches is that they duplicate the activity icons |
| 11:25 | erikos | eben: well, right click - it is hard for the kids to remember that, even so I told them several times, they still just click on the icon |
| 11:25 | walterbender | eben: too many clicks |
| 11:26 | christianmarcsch | walterbender: this makes it more confusing, knowing which one to select |
| 11:26 | walterbender | eben: and not easy to find on non-OLPC-XO Sugar |
| 11:26 | erikos | eben: yeah, I think - hard to know where the Journal is, is one reason |
| 11:26 | eben | christianmarcsch: I disagree...they're fundamentally different actions, and the two icons represent different things. I'm not sure about how we'd best show them at the same time, but I think it's logically consistent. |
| 11:26 | walterbender | christianmarcsch: colored vs grey is a pretty esy heurisitc to learn |
| 11:27 | eben | So, perhaps the best thing is to find a way to make the Journal friendlier to access/use |
| 11:27 | christianmarcsch | i don't think duplicating the icon itself will help solve the issue |
| 11:27 | eben | It really is the perfect place for resuming something, as an ordered list of things you've recently done. |
| 11:27 | walterbender | if we reach consensus about anything today, I hope it is to always have the journal icon availalble on the home view |
| 11:27 | christianmarcsch | it's true that color vs. b/w is a differentiator, but it is supposed to be a state of a single object |
| 11:28 | erikos | eben: I asked the kids "how would you resume an activity" and most of them said: Journal, it means something to them |
| 11:28 | eben | christianmarcsch: Well, the colored one represents one of many activity instances. |
| 11:28 | erikos: That's good to hear! | |
| 11:28 | christianmarcsch | eben: i don't know that we differentiate primarily by activity instance, but rather by activity |
| 11:28 | walterbender | here is a hair-brained idea I bring up to to make sure it is dismissed: what if the icons where split into two halves: color and grey and depending upon whcih half you click... |
| 11:29 | christianmarcsch | i guess another option might be to have the other instances "fan-out" on hover over an icon |
| 11:29 | silbe | walterbender: i think we can agree on that. FWIW I'd always show the Journal below the kid icon, not "the" currently active activity. It makes the Journal take the central place. |
| 11:30 | walterbender | christianmarcsch: if the secondary palette appeared on hover, that would do a lot... |
| 11:30 | erikos | silbe: garycmartin offered to make it the one in the ring at the top |
| 11:30 | christianmarcsch | silbe: that unfortunately breaks the entire ui paradigm of activities associated with XOs |
| 11:30 | eben | Always showing the Journal under the XO is interesting... |
| 11:30 | christianmarcsch | not that we shouldn't have the journal in home |
| 11:30 | walterbender | silbe: I agree. The activity under the XO doesn't really add a lot |
| 11:30 | eben | But I agree with christianmarcsch that it breaks the paradigm. |
| 11:31 | Always showing it in the Home screen seems perfectly logical, though. | |
| 11:31 | christianmarcsch | but let's get back to the main issue for a minute |
| 11:31 | silbe | walterbender: IMO that's still not prominent enough, though adding color (with all others uncolored) might help there. |
| 11:31 | christianmarcsch | what if the secondary palette did appear without a delay? |
| 11:31 | that would make the other options more discoverable, right? | |
| 11:32 | walterbender | christianmarcsch: I think so. |
| 11:32 | eben | That still seems like a workaround for the Journal not being accessible. |
| 11:32 | walterbender | eben: I think we need both |
| 11:32 | erikos | eben: well, one could do both |
| 11:32 | eben: journal more prominent | |
| 11:32 | silbe | christianmarcsch: i don't think showing a single activity makes a lot of sense to the users anyway |
| 11:32 | christianmarcsch | eben: we can discuss the journal separately |
| 11:32 | walterbender | eben: even if the journal were accessible, it is still lots of mousing... |
| 11:32 | christianmarcsch | but frankly, removing the delay seems like it might just work |
| 11:32 | erikos | eben: and the palette apear directly |
| 11:33 | walterbender | eben: if I want to resume the Write I was doing last week, I need to scroll or search... once I actually find the journal... |
| 11:33 | eben | But it forces use of the palette. |
| 11:33 | You completely lose the ability to click directly on an object to enact upon it. | |
| 11:33 | I really think the whole UI should be usable at a basic level without messing with palettes. | |
| 11:33 | christianmarcsch | eben: you should still be able to click on the object itself, no? |
| 11:34 | eben | Not if the full palette appears immediately on hover |
| 11:34 | erikos | eben: christianmarcsch yes, you are still able to click on the icon |
| 11:34 | christianmarcsch | my feeling is, if there is a simple solution to the problem, them why change the entire UI? |
| 11:34 | after all, i think the home view in general is working | |
| 11:34 | eben | The "low floor" should not require a kid to ever see/need a palette. |
| 11:34 | christianmarcsch | it's true, it would be nice to integrate the journal |
| 11:35 | silbe | still thinks it makes more sense to keep home screen as a place for starting new work and the Journal for resuming previous work. We "just" need to make the Journal as prominent as the home screen. |
| 11:35 | erikos | silbe: i think so, too |
| 11:35 | eben | I see messing about with palettes as changing the paradigm, instead of ensuring that the core UI affords the basic actions needed. |
| 11:35 | christianmarcsch | silbe: that's a point of view we can still discuss, but it was the impetus for the current design |
| 11:35 | in the very first iterations of the design, the journal was the only place to resume activities | |
| 11:36 | and children were having difficulty | |
| 11:36 | regarding palettes: | |
| 11:36 | eben | christianmarcsch: But they were having difficulty, it seems, because accessing the Journal is too hard; not because the concept is flawed. |
| 11:37 | garycmartin | walterbender: if we reverted to "start new" as the default click, we'd still have all the resume items in the palette. |
| 11:37 | christianmarcsch | to me, they actually may also work better in neighborhood and other views if the delay was a little shorter |
| 11:37 | in neighborhood especially, you are really reliant on palettes | |
| 11:37 | eben | garycmartin: right; and for those that don't know/want to use palettes, there's still the Journal. |
| 11:37 | christianmarcsch | since color is not enough to signify the identity of an XO |
| 11:37 | erikos | eben: garycmartin +1 |
| 11:37 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: that is cetainly a possibility |
| 11:38 | silbe | Too bad there's so few screen real estate on the XO-1. Showing both home screen and Journal in parallel (with easy ways to show either in "full screen") would be a nice way to solve it. |
| 11:38 | christianmarcsch | that's why i think we need to emphasize one, or the other |
| 11:38 | eben | christianmarcsch: primary palettes, yes...secondary, not necessarily. |
| 11:38 | christianmarcsch | eben: OK, agreed |
| 11:39 | silbe | christianmarcsch: +1, we definitely need a list view for those as well, but that's a different topic of course :) |
| 11:39 | christianmarcsch | so, what if we took garycmartin's suggestion and made start new the default? |
| 11:39 | walterbender | so if we make the journal always available and revert to default being new, are were there? |
| 11:39 | eben | What if the Journal was just always in the ring (or whatever layout)...it's "just another activity", and yet it can't ever be stopped.... |
| 11:39 | christianmarcsch | then resuming an activity would happen in the palette |
| 11:39 | eben: +1 | |
| 11:39 | eben | So maybe having that one colored icon next to the rest of the gray outlines would even further clarify the idea. |
| 11:39 | erikos | eben: ++ |
| 11:40 | christianmarcsch | eben: i couldn't agree more ;) |
| 11:40 | eben | Want to resume a (colored) activity...click on the colored Journal icon in front of you; otherwise, select one of these other things. |
| 11:40 | erikos | garycmartin: you offered that one, too -- so I guess you agree here as well? |
| 11:41 | garycmartin | erikos: well it's the best we have so far ;-) |
| 11:41 | silbe | eben: ok, so let's try that first. |
| 11:41 | christianmarcsch | i agree with having the journal in the ring, and also think that we *could* set the default behavior to "start new" rather than "resume" |
| 11:41 | walterbender | eben: OK as long as we keep the secondary palette too |
| 11:41 | christianmarcsch | but: what if we had an option in the toolbar, to toggle between the two? |
| 11:41 | erikos | We might want to summarize - and see if we have a first consensus |
| 11:41 | christianmarcsch | "resume" / "start new"? |
| 11:41 | silbe | make it the top entry (similar outstanding in other layouts) and the only colored one |
| 11:41 | eben | Yup....keep the secondary palette for the activities... |
| 11:42 | christianmarcsch | (eben: didn't we try that at one point?) |
| 11:42 | walterbender | so the Journal icon would act like gray'd mockup in some sense... |
| 11:42 | eben | also, you could keep the alt-click to change the ring to resume mode... |
| 11:42 | But this should paint clearer paths to new/resume visible from Home. | |
| 11:42 | christianmarcsch | eben: that sounds fine |
| 11:43 | walterbender | christianmarcsch: +1 to resume/start new since start new is the default for just clicking |
| 11:43 | garycmartin | Though the coloured Journal icon with all the others in monochrome does look a little odd I think, and it suggests others would colour if currently running (like the top frame). Perhaps we should do that? |
| 11:43 | silbe | christianmarcsch: what do you mean (option in the toolbar)? |
| 11:43 | erikos | garycmartin: interesting |
| 11:43 | garycmartin: and if you click on it - it would resume? | |
| 11:43 | christianmarcsch | silbe: i meant being able to toggle whether you'd want "start new" or "resume" as the default behavior |
| 11:44 | silbe: which would either show gray or color icons, respectively | |
| 11:44 | garycmartin | erikos: if you clicked a coloured icon it would switch to it. |
| 11:44 | silbe | christianmarcsch: ah, so like the alt key but as a toggle button? |
| 11:44 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: i like that idea |
| 11:44 | erikos | garycmartin: right |
| 11:44 | christianmarcsch | silbe: yes, exactly |
| 11:44 | silbe: they could act like two views, in a palette in the toolbar | |
| 11:45 | eben | So then if any instance of an activity is running, you resume that.....if none are running, you start new? |
| 11:45 | christianmarcsch | that way, the default would be "start new", but kids would have an easy way to change the perspective |
| 11:45 | silbe | christianmarcsch: interesting idea. And maybe even with Alt still inverting that choice... |
| 11:45 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: it almost adds back something similar to the original ring view showing running activities. |
| 11:45 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: yes, i think i like that idea |
| 11:45 | garycmartin: it makes a lot of sense | |
| 11:46 | silbe | garycmartin: I think I like it too. But the palette would still show a Start new option? |
| 11:46 | christianmarcsch | silbe: i think there would have to be |
| 11:46 | garycmartin | silbe: yes, palette would not change. |
| 11:46 | silbe | ok, agreed then. :) |
| 11:47 | christianmarcsch | eben, what do you think about gary's suggestion? |
| 11:47 | eben | I think it might work. It biases toward only one instance of any activity at a time, but that might be OK. |
| 11:47 | christianmarcsch | i agree, it might just work |
| 11:47 | somehow seems very intuitive | |
| 11:48 | erikos | eben: ahhh, yeah what happens if you have two instances open? |
| 11:48 | eben | It does kind of encourage the thought that the activity in the ring is the same thing as the running instance.... |
| 11:48 | christianmarcsch | i think the bias towards a single instance could easily be the default |
| 11:48 | erikos: well, in that case, you could use the palette to switch between | |
| 11:48 | silbe | eben: That was my first thought exactly. It makes it easier to switch to running activities, though (without the Frame) |
| 11:48 | eben | Which we wanted to avoid, since the ring is full of "templates" |
| 11:48 | christianmarcsch | multiple instances seem like a more "advanced" thing to have, anyway |
| 11:48 | erikos | hmm |
| 11:49 | christianmarcsch | not to say we shouldn't support them, but it seems fine to have them be selectable in the palette |
| 11:49 | (which is what we currently do anyway) | |
| 11:49 | in the frame, they would still be separated as individual elements | |
| 11:49 | eben | I guess my fear is that it might make kids think that clicking in the ring is the way to resume (but only sometimes! would they know?) |
| 11:49 | garycmartin | erikos: hmm, could it show the colour of latest one used? |
| 11:49 | silbe | right, since the most recent are shown we don't have to change any line of code for that :) |
| 11:49 | christianmarcsch | eben: but you can start a new instance from inside the activity as well, no? |
| 11:50 | silbe | christianmarcsch: how? |
| 11:50 | erikos | garycmartin: yeah, though... |
| 11:50 | eben | christianmarcsch: no |
| 11:50 | christianmarcsch | silbe: i seem to remember designs where we supported that |
| 11:50 | eben | an activity IS an object...it doesn't have means for managing other activities inside it. |
| 11:50 | christianmarcsch | could we add a similar function inside the activity toolbar? |
| 11:50 | silbe | christianmarcsch: not currently it seems |
| 11:50 | erikos | I think that proposal puts open activity management to the home view, which it shouldn't |
| 11:51 | christianmarcsch | not activity management; just starting a new activity fresh |
| 11:51 | erikos | we put that into the frame - since it is accessible from all the views |
| 11:51 | silbe | christianmarcsch: that would be the "clear" / "start new" i mentioned above |
| 11:51 | christianmarcsch | so that kids don't start erasing the old instance (an issue simon pointed out) |
| 11:51 | erikos | christianmarcsch: and you are able to switch to open instances |
| 11:51 | christianmarcsch | silbe: in the frame? |
| 11:52 | silbe | christianmarcsch: no, in the activity toolbar |
| 11:52 | eben | But that's not a problem if they choose to resume or start new up front, which is the whole design goal here, right? |
| 11:52 | christianmarcsch | silbe: can you repeat? sorry |
| 11:52 | silbe | christianmarcsch: 17:23 < silbe> and if we let them to do within an activity, do it really inside (i.e. "Clear" / "Start new" button inside activity palette) rather than inside the loading screen |
| 11:52 | christianmarcsch | eben: well, that's true, but i can still see a case where someone may already be in an activity, wanting to start a new instance |
| 11:53 | erikos | eben: well from the ring you can then: start new, switch to an open one, (resume to older entries through the palette) |
| 11:53 | christianmarcsch | silbe: thanks. i think adding that function in the activity toolbar would help, in addition to whatever changes we make in home |
| 11:53 | eben | But then they should press the Home key, and start a new one. It's no more steps, and it keeps the distinction clean. |
| 11:54 | christianmarcsch | eben: i know you are trying to keep it pure, but in this case a parallel pathway may not be a bad thing |
| 11:54 | silbe | christianmarcsch: +1 and also related to the "Keep" mailing list thread. We should focus on the home screen issue now, though. |
| 11:54 | christianmarcsch | seeing as you may already be in the scope of the activity sphere |
| 11:54 | erikos | eben: was the last comment for me? |
| 11:54 | eben | erikos: ? |
| 11:55 | erikos: eben: well from the ring you can then: start new, switch to an open one, (resume to older entries through the palette) | |
| 11:55 | erikos | eben: ok, then maybe not ;p |
| 11:55 | ok, I did not get it then ;p | |
| 11:55 | what you mean by your reply, can you rephrase? | |
| 11:55 | eben | erikos: oh, no...I think we're in agreement. |
| 11:56 | christianmarcsch | well anyway, regardless of the activity toolbar, garycmartin's suggestion to have the ring reflect current instances seems good. does everyone agree? |
| 11:56 | erikos | eben: ahh... ;p |
| 11:56 | eben | I was replying to Christian. |
| 11:56 | erikos | ok |
| 11:56 | eben | I'm not entirely convinced yet. :) |
| 11:56 | erikos | christianmarcsch: not convinced neither ;p |
| 11:56 | christianmarcsch | i can outline why i like it |
| 11:57 | silbe | christianmarcsch: i'd say let's give it a chance. it duplicates the frame and makes the home screen impure again (in another way this time), but might work. :) |
| 11:57 | eben | It leaves the question of what happens when you have two of the same activity, and it seems to just conflate the idea of the top edge of the Frame with the Home view. |
| 11:57 | christianmarcsch | at startup, all activities will be gray (uninstantiated) |
| 11:57 | this serves as a constant reminder of the color/gray differentiation, and gives kids an easy way to start a new instance | |
| 11:57 | garycmartin | eben: yea, I'm seeing the issues. |
| 11:57 | christianmarcsch | after instances have been started, home gives you a way back in |
| 11:58 | garycmartin | eben: so if all stay grey, what do we do with the Journal icon, keep it grey as well? |
| 11:58 | christianmarcsch | i don't see the "redundancy" with the frame as an issue, really |
| 11:58 | silbe | we should try to make the Frame more accessible (esp. on touchscreen devices) as well, though that's a separate issue again |
| 11:58 | eben | No, that's the special case. You can't make a new Journal...it "just is" |
| 11:59 | So it would get the special status of being the colored icon in Home, which also serves to highlight it and make it clear that it's the place where colored (instantiated) activities live and can be resumed. | |
| 11:59 | christianmarcsch | if we go the route of all gray icons in home, i'd push for at least having the option to toggle back to "resume" mode in the toolbar |
| 11:59 | eben | christianmarcsch: permanently? or would alt-click be enough? |
| 12:00 | christianmarcsch | eben: i'd say permanently |
| 12:00 | eben: it's an option | |
| 12:00 | eben | I find resuming from home just discourages proper use of the Journal. |
| 12:01 | garycmartin | Just thinking, having coloured icons in home that indicate the activity is running and switch to it would prevent kids from starting many activities and running out of ram. Just a thought. |
| 12:01 | christianmarcsch | eben: i still like the ability to resume from home |
| 12:01 | eben | (Keeping it in the secondary palettes is still fine with me, but I don't think it needs to be a primary option) |
| 12:01 | erikos | eben: ++++++ |
| 12:01 | christianmarcsch | just a reminder that resuming *was* the issue that lead us to this design in the first place |
| 12:01 | including all the revisions to the frame, etc. | |
| 12:01 | silbe | Crazy idea: Let's merge Journal and home screen. All just a view into the Journal anyway (except for system-installed activities currently), so make the home screen an activity list (uncolored) view of the Journal. Primary toolbar buttons to change the view (to Objects View, Details View, ...)... |
| 12:01 | eben | Another thought is to add a longer secondary palette to the Journal icon itself, in Home, which shows, say, the most recent 5 activity instances in it for resuming. |
| 12:02 | christianmarcsch | ok, here's a crazy idea; |
| 12:02 | eben | That way, even if you don't have an activity in Home view, there's still a quick way to get a "peek" inside the Journal without going there. |
| 12:02 | christianmarcsch | what if the journal became the toggle for "start new" vs. "resume"? |
| 12:02 | i.e., it could be a button in the toolbar | |
| 12:02 | clicking it would highlight resumable instances in the ring | |
| 12:02 | eben | So you click the Journal icon in the toolbar to enter the Journal... |
| 12:03 | And toggle it back off to start new things. | |
| 12:03 | walterbender | christianmarcsch: maybe on icon in the status section? |
| 12:03 | christianmarcsch | eben: actually, i was thinking more of a toggle, but that could work too |
| 12:03 | walterbender: status section? | |
| 12:04 | walterbender: do you mean the toolbar? | |
| 12:04 | erikos | eben: the nice thing about the current design is, that you get a list of last entries filtered by activity type (in the activity toolbar) |
| 12:04 | silbe | christianmarcsch: so like my idea, just that it's a toggle button instead of listing all the views in a row? |
| 12:04 | eben | I think we still need a direct way into the Journal from home. |
| 12:04 | erikos | eben: in your proposal that would not be the case |
| 12:04 | eben | erikos: Yeah, I'm suggesting we keep that, but also add a time ordered (not filtered by activity) list to the Journal icon. |
| 12:05 | erikos | eben: ok |
| 12:05 | christianmarcsch | silbe: yes, i think |
| 12:06 | silbe | christianmarcsch: nice idea then ;) |
| 12:06 | christianmarcsch | eben: so, what if clicking the journal icon in the toolbar takes you into the journal, but on hover the instances turn color in the ring? |
| 12:06 | eben | on hover of what? |
| 12:06 | silbe | christianmarcsch: when would that coloring stop? |
| 12:06 | christianmarcsch | eben: a journal icon in the toolbar |
| 12:06 | silbe: on mouseout | |
| 12:07 | silbe: as a transitory state | |
| 12:07 | eben | I'm not sure what that does for you... |
| 12:07 | silbe | christianmarcsch: but what use is it then? |
| 12:07 | christianmarcsch | the purpose of that would be to suggest that there are additional instances embedded in each activity |
| 12:07 | that you can invoke by bringing up the palette | |
| 12:07 | eben | But they're not...they're in the Journal. |
| 12:07 | christianmarcsch | structurally yes |
| 12:07 | silbe | christianmarcsch: i guess it would confuse users. they might try moving the mouse fast enough to reach the colored icons... |
| 12:07 | christianmarcsch | but instances are still associated with activities |
| 12:08 | eben | I'd rather just see the Journal icon in Home view, I think. |
| 12:08 | christianmarcsch | on an intuitive level |
| 12:08 | silbe: you are probably right about that | |
| 12:08 | eben: OK, agreed | |
| 12:08 | silbe | fetches some ice cream to keep mind working, brb |
| 12:09 | christianmarcsch | but: i think we should give people the option to select the "start new" or "resume" view |
| 12:09 | eben | christianmarcsch: Can I hear your argument for the choice, again? :) |
| 12:09 | christianmarcsch | in other words, we may be changing the default back to start new, but for those people who'd prefer the other view, we should give them a way to invoke it |
| 12:09 | eben | alt-click. ;) |
| 12:09 | christianmarcsch | eben: i, for one, would continue to use the "resume" view |
| 12:10 | eben: alt-click alone isn't discoverable enough | |
| 12:10 | eben | I think perpetuating Home view as a view for primarily resuming detracts from the Journal. |
| 12:10 | christianmarcsch | eben: i agree we will have it, but giving an explicit choice in the toolbar will make sure everyone knows it exists |
| 12:10 | eben: but again, that is the reason for this design of the home view to begin with | |
| 12:10 | eben | christianmarcsch: But that's OK. There's alt-click, and also secondary palettes.....both alternate (not primary) on purpose, since Home is about starting fresh, and the Journal is about resuming. |
| 12:10 | erikos | christianmarcsch: could be a choice in the control panel as well |
| 12:10 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: how about holding the alt key to enable the resume coloured icon mode (reverse of what we have just now) |
| 12:11 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: yes, we should have that |
| 12:11 | eben | christianmarcsch: Right! And the reason that it doesn't work, I think. |
| 12:11 | christianmarcsch | all i'm saying is, i think the two views should be interchangeable, and should exists as a toggle |
| 12:11 | eben | Because if confuses the primary intent of the view. |
| 12:11 | christianmarcsch | eben: but if that is no longer the basis of the view, i think we would need to go back and question the other design decisions we made, including the frame, and others |
| 12:12 | silbe | can we mention the alt key in the palette to make it more discoverable? |
| 12:12 | christianmarcsch | eben: rolling back the last year and a half of UI design |
| 12:12 | eben | Frame: resume ongoing; Journal: resume old; Home: start new |
| 12:12 | silbe | wonders what became of dfarnings work on exposing keyboard accelerators... |
| 12:12 | erikos | christianmarcsch: I wouldn't see it that black ;p |
| 12:12 | christianmarcsch | i like silbe's suggestion. i just think the two views should be accessible (not only on keycommand) |
| 12:13 | eben | I think this helps clarify the roles of these parts of the UI. |
| 12:13 | christianmarcsch | erikos: well, i do think that a large part of the design was predicated on the idea of resuming |
| 12:13 | eben: home= resume recent; journal = resume all | |
| 12:14 | eben: there is an argument to be made for that... | |
| 12:14 | erikos | christianmarcsch: in the home view, but the frame - to make it work for 'opne activity management' was more because it is accessible from all views |
| 12:14 | christianmarcsch | home being the first thing you see |
| 12:14 | eben | But it falls down when you realize that "??? = start new", which is why we're discussing this. |
| 12:14 | erikos | christianmarcsch: compared to when we had the 'open activity management' in the ring |
| 12:14 | christianmarcsch | erikos: yes, but remember that we used to be able to open new activities from the frame |
| 12:15 | eben | Placing the Journal icon in Home also makes it one click away, and helps reinforce its purpose. |
| 12:15 | erikos | christianmarcsch: ohh, right |
| 12:15 | christianmarcsch | erikos: i don't want to really have this discussion, but i thought that worked quite well in sugar 1.0 ... ;) |
| 12:15 | anyway, | |
| 12:15 | erikos | christianmarcsch: but the frame was always up, too... ;p |
| 12:16 | christianmarcsch: at least in the home view... ufff ;))) | |
| 12:16 | christianmarcsch | i'm on-board with changing the emphasis of the view to "start new", so long as we still have resume available |
| 12:16 | eben | christianmarcsch: That design change happened long before the resume/new change, though. I don't think that's affected by this change. |
| 12:16 | christianmarcsch | as someone said earlier, we need both pathways |
| 12:16 | garycmartin | erikos: I almost suggested that we always show the frame in home to make the Journal more obvious ;-) |
| 12:16 | christianmarcsch | it's more a matter of which do we want to prioritize |
| 12:17 | eben | We need two clear pathways that reinforce the core UI paradigms. |
| 12:17 | erikos | garycmartin: :) |
| 12:17 | christianmarcsch | eben: yes |
| 12:17 | eben | Resuming things from the Journal seems like a core UI paradigm we should reinforce as much as possible, to me. |
| 12:17 | christianmarcsch | eben: i agree |
| 12:17 | erikos | I fully agree here |
| 12:17 | silbe | never disagreed :) |
| 12:17 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: resumable in one click, or just secondary palette (or alt key)? |
| 12:17 | christianmarcsch | eben: but that's not to say we shouldn't have resume of recent items from within home |
| 12:18 | garycmartin: i'm really just arguing for a toggle between the two views, "start new" = gray icons; "resume" = colored icons | |
| 12:18 | eben | I think it is, though, and that's my point. But we know where we stand...what does everyone else think? |
| 12:18 | christianmarcsch | everything else stays as is |
| 12:18 | though i'm also on-board with adding the journal icon + palette | |
| 12:19 | i'll make another case for resume | |
| 12:19 | the gray icon view might be the more functional for *some* users, | |
| 12:19 | but it is also devoid of any behavior patters | |
| 12:19 | silbe | i think the thing we have best consensus on for now is reverting to start-new + Journal at top of ring (the only colored one) |
| 12:19 | christianmarcsch | because it is the starting point, by definition |
| 12:19 | eben | right |
| 12:19 | christianmarcsch | what is compelling about the current design is that it shows you, at a glance, what you have been working on |
| 12:20 | eben | But that's what the Journal's for! |
| 12:20 | erikos | !!! |
| 12:20 | christianmarcsch | so if you were to compare two or more sugar home views side by side, they would look different |
| 12:20 | reflecting the behavior patterns of different users | |
| 12:20 | erikos | christianmarcsch: for me this is reflected by the Journal best |
| 12:20 | silbe | merging home view + Journal (in one way or another) might happen for 0.90, with more time to do mockups and prototypes |
| 12:20 | walterbender | won't alt still show that? |
| 12:20 | christianmarcsch | the home view was always intended to be a personal space, a space for you, and your "stuff" |
| 12:20 | erikos | christianmarcsch: from my work in school, the Journal is a paradigm very well understood |
| 12:21 | christianmarcsch | i'm not saying the journal doesn't fulfill that |
| 12:21 | garycmartin | must admit I very infrequently visit the Journal any more with the current home resume design |
| 12:21 | erikos | garycmartin: shame on you! |
| 12:21 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: a reason for keeping the current design as an option |
| 12:21 | no: gary has a point | |
| 12:22 | i think there should be parallel pathways to support different user behaviors | |
| 12:22 | eben | But he could use the palette, or alt-click even still. |
| 12:22 | christianmarcsch | it's not best practice to force everyone into a single mode |
| 12:22 | erikos | christianmarcsch: actually, the resume/start new was always toggleble |
| 12:22 | garycmartin | eben: yep, right click palette would be what I'd likely move to. |
| 12:22 | erikos | christianmarcsch: by a key |
| 12:22 | silbe | christianmarcsch: of course. but OTOH we should guide the user into best practice. |
| 12:22 | christianmarcsch | eben: but you know what i'm saying, right? i'm only talking about adding a view selection in thetoolbar |
| 12:22 | erikos | christianmarcsch: not in the UI though |
| 12:23 | christianmarcsch | i like the key |
| 12:23 | i think we need a view toggle in addition, in the toolbar | |
| 12:23 | erikos | christianmarcsch: we could have that option in the Control Panel |
| 12:23 | christianmarcsch | non-invasive, |
| 12:23 | just present for those users who would want a persistent switch (rather than the temporal alt-toggle) | |
| 12:23 | silbe | christianmarcsch: what about making it an alternate view instead of a toggle button? |
| 12:23 | christianmarcsch | silbe: that would be fine, too |
| 12:24 | eben | I think I'm just arguing that we should push on clear and simple pathway for kids, and then they can discover (or be taught) these alternatives which exist as shortcuts, but not as an alternate UI paradigm for the view. |
| 12:24 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: we did have a check box for a while in 0.85.x for a bit. |
| 12:24 | christianmarcsch | erikos: the control panel seems to far removed, as to that it would be used at all i fear |
| 12:24 | eben: it's not an alternate paradigm, only a different view | |
| 12:24 | erikos | christianmarcsch: ok, having it as a toggle in the view itself would work for me, too |
| 12:24 | christianmarcsch | i think this view could exist alongside the list view, for instance |
| 12:24 | erikos | tomeu: technically, hard to do, I guess not? |
| 12:25 | christianmarcsch | it really wants to be a view, not a control panel option |
| 12:25 | in terms of accessibility | |
| 12:25 | erikos | likes to check if tomeu was listening all the time :) |
| 12:25 | eben | Well, right now it's an option in the palette for the view icon in the toolbar. |
| 12:25 | christianmarcsch | eben: we will still have a clear and simple pathway |
| 12:25 | tomeu | erikos: you mean reapplying the patch we reverted? |
| 12:25 | garycmartin | silbe: you mean a 3rd top right toolbar icon, a coloured frogs egg icon? |
| 12:25 | eben | That makes sense, if we keep it. |
| 12:25 | christianmarcsch | silbe, garycmartin: i like that idea |
| 12:25 | silbe | garycmartin: exactly |
| 12:26 | erikos | tomeu: I was looking for it the other day |
| 12:26 | eben | That suggests it's a totally different view...it's still just a variant on this view, though. |
| 12:26 | erikos | tomeu: to add an option to switch behavior and refresh the view |
| 12:26 | christianmarcsch | eben: honestly, i think either could work, as long as it's treated as a view |
| 12:26 | silbe | we need non-rodent ways to switch views, but that's a different issue again |
| 12:27 | eben: IMO it _is_ a totally different view | |
| 12:27 | christianmarcsch | a third icon with a colored circle sounds great, as a toggle |
| 12:27 | erikos | tomeu: or add another view i guess (like they offer now) |
| 12:27 | eben | Well, making it separate has other larger implications...can you select a different layout? Can you rearrange the icons differently, can they have different activities in them? etc. That's a bigger ball of wax. |
| 12:27 | tomeu | erikos: we just need to revert the commit that reverted it |
| 12:27 | silbe | eben: I'd even hide the activities that don't have resumable instances |
| 12:27 | tomeu | erikos: we even had a gconf option |
| 12:27 | eben | silbe: But it's one that should just be the Journal, in my opinion. :) |
| 12:27 | erikos | tomeu: right, we still have |
| 12:28 | tomeu: though non-working now ;p | |
| 12:28 | christianmarcsch | i wouldn't split too many hairs over whether its a separate view, or a toggle of a current view |
| 12:28 | silbe | eben: that's why i suggested merging both :) |
| 12:28 | christianmarcsch | i think either could work |
| 12:28 | that's the kind of thing that we could best work through in design mockups | |
| 12:28 | i'd be happy to mock something up, to help clarify the different options | |
| 12:28 | eben | christianmarcsch: How about a checkbox in control panel for "start me in the Journal"? |
| 12:29 | christianmarcsch | eben: again, i think that is too removed. i think the option wants to be available within the home view |
| 12:29 | eben: it's one of those things. in control panel, it wouldn't be used | |
| 12:29 | eben: are you worried about real-estate in the toolbar? | |
| 12:30 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: FWIW I think the check box in the existing palette worked fine, I was suprised when it disapeared for the release. |
| 12:30 | eben | No, I'm worried about taking the Journal's function out the Journal, and confusing the purpose of the view. |
| 12:30 | silbe | christianmarcsch: agreed (CP -> won't get used). Some kids will explore it to its depths, but others will be afraid to break anything. |
| 12:30 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: i could live with the checkbox, though i tend to think a separate view option would be even more clear |
| 12:30 | eben | But I guess if the other is the default it would be OK. I just don't see the argument for keeping the permanent toggle. |
| 12:31 | christianmarcsch | eben: to see the value, you have to believe that the current home view is doing some things right |
| 12:31 | which i do! | |
| 12:31 | in other words, we are simply opening up the option to have either experience, depending on which you would prefer | |
| 12:32 | while setting the default to "start new", which should alleviate the issues for "beginners" | |
| 12:32 | the ease of resuming the last activity from home is something worth preserving | |
| 12:33 | to throw that out entirely, because some people are having trouble starting a new instance, seems unnecessary | |
| 12:33 | eben | ok |
| 12:34 | christianmarcsch | if it's ok, i can mock up the options |
| 12:34 | then we can take another look | |
| 12:34 | eben | No, that's fine, really. Let's nail consensus and Make Things Happen. :) |
| 12:35 | christianmarcsch | sounds good |
| 12:35 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: One down side to options is potential confusions for a teacher, different kids have fiddled with the behaviour and no some general class given actione puts different kids in different states. |
| 12:35 | silbe | do we have consensus about view vs. toggle? |
| 12:35 | still prefers a view ;) | |
| 12:36 | eben | 1) Add Journal to Home view, colored 2) default to "start new" mode in home 3) Keep the "start new"/"resume recent" toggle in the palette for the view 4) Keep the alt-click shortcut to toggle the view 5) keep the palette behaviors as they are 6) Add a list of the n most recent activities to the Journal's secondary palette. |
| 12:36 | silbe | garycmartin: we already have that with layouts and views |
| 12:36 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: i'll keep that in mind. i think it needs to be clearly designated, so that the teacher can have everyone on the same page |
| 12:36 | erikos | oook... |
| 12:36 | eben | silbe: I think it needs to remain a toggle, as in the previous design. |
| 12:36 | erikos | should we summarize this topic? |
| 12:36 | 1) revert back to 'start new by default' | |
| 12:36 | 2) keep the resume options as secondary options in the palette | |
| 12:37 | eben | erikos: ^^^ |
| 12:37 | erikos | 3) the Journal as icon at the top of the ring |
| 12:37 | - containing the last entries of the Journal | |
| 12:37 | silbe | eben: hmm, i'd still prefer "Start new" as appearing first in the palette (which it currently doesn't IIRC) |
| 12:37 | erikos | - in the palette |
| 12:37 | eben | silbe: It should in "start new" mode. |
| 12:37 | erikos | uups, I had a network delay :/ |
| 12:38 | eben | It's at the bottom in "resume recent" mode |
| 12:38 | silbe | eben: ok, good point |
| 12:38 | christianmarcsch | the summary sounds fine to me |
| 12:38 | eben | ...so the "primary action" of clicking the icon is the first in the list. |
| 12:38 | christianmarcsch | eben: that makes sense |
| 12:39 | garycmartin | eben +1 |
| 12:39 | silbe | eben: should the primary palette show the name of the first Journal entry then? |
| 12:39 | eben | Only in resume mode |
| 12:39 | silbe | oh, it already does... |
| 12:40 | eben | In start mode, it should be the name of the activity itself |
| 12:40 | silbe: :) | |
| 12:40 | christianmarcsch | erikos: what are our next steps? |
| 12:40 | garycmartin | Next topic erikos? |
| 12:40 | silbe | eben: agreed on your summary then |
| 12:41 | erikos | just a quick comment on garycmartin comment about the teacher being confused if kids have switched |
| 12:41 | i think it is a good point - and maybe an option in the CP is the better one for that reason | |
| 12:41 | ok, next one | |
| 12:41 | silbe | can we add the consensus to the minutes (#agreed IIRC)? |
| 12:42 | christianmarcsch | silbe: from my side, yes |
| 12:42 | erikos | silbe: yes |
| 12:42 | http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]eeting#3G_Support | |
| 12:42 | silbe | #agreed Add Journal to Home view, colored |
| 12:42 | #agreed default to "start new" mode in home | |
| 12:42 | #agreed Keep the "start new"/"resume recent" toggle in the palette for the view | |
| 12:42 | #agreed Keep the alt-click shortcut to toggle the view | |
| 12:42 | #agreed keep the palette behaviors as they are | |
| 12:43 | #agreed Add a list of the n most recent activities to the Journal's secondary palette. | |
| 12:43 | (hope meeting takes orders from me) | |
| 12:43 | erikos | silbe: thanks! |
| 12:43 | the current design of the 3G Feature is at: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Support#UI_Design | |
| 12:44 | they basically need an icon | |
| 12:44 | silbe | it didn't :-/ well, then log only. |
| 12:44 | erikos | silbe: I can post it to the ml later |
| 12:44 | silbe | erikos: ok, thx! |
| 12:45 | eben | UI here looks good, though I have a few minor suggestions. |
| 12:45 | erikos | listens |
| 12:45 | eben | I think disconnect should use an icon just like other network devices. |
| 12:46 | We could show the connection time in the primary palette, eg. "connected for 02:22" instead; I could go either way. | |
| 12:46 | christianmarcsch | eben: +1 |
| 12:46 | garycmartin | eben: +1 |
| 12:46 | eben | And the right-aligned layout of the control panel section seems a bit funny |
| 12:47 | christianmarcsch | i'd suggest at least moving everything over to the left, and having the labels be left-aligned (not centered) |
| 12:47 | eben | Is data sent/received important (it might in fact be...I don't use 3G modems/devices) |
| 12:47 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: +1 |
| 12:47 | eben: cost is the issue there! | |
| 12:47 | eben | garycmartin: right, ok. :) I suspected that might be the reason. |
| 12:48 | Maybe that could be made a little friendlier with some simple [UP] 23kb [DOWN] 31 kb | |
| 12:48 | silbe | eben: it is, at least to some users |
| 12:48 | eben | (where [UP] and [DOWN] are icons |
| 12:48 | silbe | eben: there are volume-based tariffs |
| 12:48 | eben | yup, gotcha |
| 12:49 | garycmartin | eben: You mentioned you had some icon designs already (email thread)? |
| 12:49 | eben | I did, huh? When was that (maybe I do....I don't recall). |
| 12:49 | I think, last we discussed, it was suggested that a cell phone icon would be the clearest, even though it isn't necessarily true. | |
| 12:50 | garycmartin | eben: how about the USB icon with some wireless arcs at one end/corner? |
| 12:51 | eben | that could work... |
| 12:51 | Kids won't know the USB icon, but will kids be using this feature? | |
| 12:53 | garycmartin | eben: I think often the 3G devices is that shape, at least the ones I've seen. I've net seen a physical phone teathering via USB myself. |
| 12:53 | is loosing the ability to hit keys :-) | |
| 12:54 | erikos | oh, we need to hurry then a bit... ;p |
| 12:54 | eben | garycmartin: interesting...I've only ever seen the USB phone tethering. :) |
| 12:55 | OK. Well, I can just take the task of mocking up a couple of icons. I can try the USB/waves and the phone and we can go from there. | |
| 12:55 | erikos | garycmartin: usb is not only the best differentior, as there are other 3G crds |
| 12:55 | garycmartin | eben: Happy to make a SVG of the USB stick if you want to try a phone looking one? We can then see what they like. We should use the same icon in bothe the frame and the CP. |
| 12:55 | erikos | cards |
| 12:55 | garycmartin: eben thanks, that sounds great | |
| 12:55 | eben | garycmartin: I made most of those icons. ;) I've got them around. |
| 12:55 | erikos | next item then |
| 12:56 | Write to Journal anytime | |
| 12:56 | eben | Oh, I see what you mean. :-P |
| 12:56 | christianmarcsch | erikos: can you explain? |
| 12:56 | eben | Yeah, that sounds good. We'll each try one. |
| 12:56 | erikos | christianmarcsch: sure |
| 12:56 | garycmartin | eben: don't worry, I'll just use your SVG, shrink it a little / re-position, and add some arcs ;-) |
| 12:56 | erikos | christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Description.png |
| 12:57 | christianmarcsch: this is an option that would solve the issue | |
| 12:57 | christianmarcsch: the issue is, that the naming alert is disruptive | |
| 12:57 | eben | christianmarcsch: an alternate summary is "edit description from within activity" |
| 12:57 | erikos | christianmarcsch: and you need many clicks to close an activity |
| 12:57 | christianmarcsch | oh, i see |
| 12:57 | so this is about naming an activity instance? | |
| 12:58 | eben | erikos: I see utility in editing the description, but this isn't actually a solution to the naming alert. |
| 12:58 | silbe | to raise the issue again: how about switching to the Journal details view instead, like we do for downloads? |
| 12:58 | christianmarcsch | sorry, i have to take a quick 15 minute break |
| 12:58 | eben | erikos: as designed, titling the activity before stopping should prevent the naming alert from appearing, so this is still an extra feature. |
| 12:58 | christianmarcsch | i'll be back shortly |
| 12:58 | erikos | christianmarcsch: setting the description and adding tags, like you would do in the Journal |
| 12:58 | silbe | the space for the description looks quite smallish in the mockup |
| 12:59 | erikos | eben: the current behavior is like you describe it |
| 12:59 | eben | In the mockup, what is the b/w Journal icon? |
| 12:59 | silbe | ok, do we want to take a break now then? we've gone on for quite some time, a bit fresh air might not be a bad idea. |
| 12:59 | garycmartin | silbe, I wish we could also make use of the Journal details view as well, needs careful thought though (I'm not there yet). |
| 12:59 | eben | erikos: OK, so this really isn't a solution to the naming alert in any way, right? But it is a worthy feature to consider in its own right |
| 12:59 | erikos | silbe: would be ok with me |
| 13:00 | eben: well, you might be right in some way ;p | |
| 13:00 | silbe | eben: it was proposed as an alternative to the naming alert IIRC. I.e. if it gets implemented we'd throw out the naming alert. |
| 13:00 | eben | silbe: Yeah, that's a thought....if instead of the naming alert it just takes you into the Journal details for that item.... |
| 13:00 | erikos | eben: it arised from a way to get rid of the naming alert |
| 13:01 | silbe: i would definitely prefer that then the naing alert | |
| 13:01 | silbe | eben: you mean after stopping the activity? great idea! |
| 13:01 | eben | silbe: yeah, on stop of an unnamed/new activityy |
| 13:01 | erikos | eben: maybe I can give you some feedback from the field |
| 13:02 | eben | It's not really any less obtrusive, but it helps teach about the Journal. |
| 13:02 | likes feedback | |
| 13:02 | erikos | eben: in my class I disabled the naming alert |
| 13:02 | silbe | eben, garycmartin, erikos: how much time do you have? would a break be fine with you, so christianmarcsch can join into the discussion? |
| 13:02 | garycmartin | eben +1, but we need to make the details view more obvious to get out of |
| 13:03 | erikos | eben: bt what I do is I ask the kids to add details in every lesson |
| 13:03 | garycmartin | silbe: break would be good for me, I need more hot tea :-) |
| 13:03 | erikos | eben: that way they use the Journal for reflection |
| 13:03 | garycmartin | goes to put the kettle on |
| 13:03 | eben | erikos: and resuming, we hope. ;) |
| 13:03 | erikos | eben: that is why 'switching to journal' vs the naming alert would be an improvement for me |
| 13:04 | eben: of course ;p | |
| 13:04 | silbe | gets some fresh air and lemonade |
| 13:04 | erikos | silbe: ok lets break here for 10 minutes |
| 13:04 | eben: fine with you, too? | |
| 13:04 | eben | OK, so resuming at 10 after, maybe? |
| 13:04 | yup | |
| 13:05 | erikos | awesome |
| 13:11 | christianmarcsch | i'm back |
| 13:11 | anyone here? | |
| 13:14 | garycmartin | waves |
| 13:14 | christianmarcsch | hi! |
| 13:14 | looks like some people are still breaking? | |
| 13:15 | garycmartin | christianmarcsch: yea, I think another 5min and they'll be back. |
| 13:15 | christianmarcsch | sounds good |
| 13:15 | erikos | back too |
| 13:15 | walterbender | needs to tune out in a few minutes :( |
| 13:16 | christianmarcsch | i, too, need to go soon |
| 13:16 | erikos | walterbender: I will report the results on the ml |
| 13:16 | silbe | is back |
| 13:16 | christianmarcsch | maybe we can try to wrap up the naming discussion? |
| 13:16 | eben | is back |
| 13:17 | christianmarcsch | great, looks like we are all here |
| 13:18 | so, i actually don't mind the proposal to have naming be optional | |
| 13:18 | garycmartin | erikos: FWIW I'm not sold on the extra description / tag palettes yet. I can't see them being used very often and it's another thing we would need to get activity developers to add and conform to. |
| 13:18 | eben | garycmartin: isn't the activity toolbar system-supplied? |
| 13:19 | erikos | garycmartin: well, it would be part of the activity palette (system supplied) |
| 13:19 | silbe | i agree the naming dialog is bad and ebens suggestion to switch to the Journal details view after stopping makes a lot of sense to me |
| 13:19 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: that's the problem, i guess. how do we make them more discoverable? |
| 13:19 | silbe: eben's suggestion sounds good to me | |
| 13:19 | garycmartin | erikos: I know I'm needing to customise some of mine, Walter's TA does as well. |
| 13:20 | erikos | garycmartin: ok, I see |
| 13:20 | eben | erikos: I think the best way to handle in-activity adjustments would be with a tag icon, which revealed a palette with both description and tagging controls. |
| 13:20 | But I can also see replacing the naming alert with a trip to the details view of the Journal. | |
| 13:20 | christianmarcsch | eben: a trip to the journal sounds fine, and reinforces its role |
| 13:20 | eben | Those are basically orthogonal. |
| 13:21 | christianmarcsch: right | |
| 13:21 | silbe | as for extending the activity toolbar, I don't think the additional metadata fits well there. Either the dropdowns would be bulky or simply too small to be useful. |
| 13:21 | eben | Though that's still just for "new" activities...I can still see desire to be able to tag/describe within the activity as a project moves along. |
| 13:21 | erikos | eben: so: the activity title we would move it out, too? |
| 13:21 | silbe | eben: +1 on orthogonality |
| 13:21 | eben | silbe: I agree with the "bulky or too small" comment, but I don't see bulky as an issue. |
| 13:21 | garycmartin | erikos: tomeu is the technical issue that looses any edits made in the Journal while the activity is currently running something we can resolve? |
| 13:21 | erikos | eben: and have just a switch to journal icon? |
| 13:22 | garycmartin: yes, I will code that in the next days | |
| 13:22 | eben | That's, in part, the reason for palettes....to provide contextual "windows" any size needed for the feature they provide. |
| 13:22 | silbe | eben: oh, I'd do that (switching to details view) on every stop, not just the first. That has bugged me about the naming dialog all the time... |
| 13:23 | erikos | silbe: hmmm |
| 13:23 | eben | silbe: hmmm, while I see it as beneficial the first time, I'm afraid doing it every time could be quite frustrating. |
| 13:23 | silbe | garycmartin: we can, I might even work on it (it gets more easy if my "clean-up" patches get merged, though) |
| 13:24 | eben: For me it's a way of reflecting on what I just finished. | |
| 13:24 | eben | I'm not sure this was answered before: what's the black/white journal icon in the mockup? |
| 13:25 | erikos | eben: it says export |
| 13:25 | eben: rich text/pdf | |
| 13:25 | silbe | eben: The dialog was annoying in that I couldn't look at it again if I didn't remember too well. While the activity toolbar stuff would do that one even better, in the details view I at least have the option of resuming right again (whereas in the dialog I was stuck) |
| 13:25 | garycmartin | eben: Ohh that's me that is (just realised it's Write) :-) |
| 13:26 | eben | erikos: hmmm, I thought those things were placed in the keep palette..."Keep as PDF" |
| 13:26 | garycmartin | eben: it's the custom export options as erikos just mentioned. Some activities are now using separate icons for each (see TA), I'm not sure which is best. |
| 13:27 | eben | I tend to think the items in the activity toolbar should be fixed and consistent. |
| 13:27 | With all of the "add this to the journal in another format" options in the keep palette. | |
| 13:28 | And what's the home icon there for? (I really need to get a new Sugar installed!) | |
| 13:28 | erikos | eben: can we discuss this in another thread? |
| 13:28 | eben | ok |
| 13:28 | erikos | eben: to not loose focuse too much ;p |
| 13:28 | silbe | eben: sharing |
| 13:28 | eben | Oh, right. :) Duh. |
| 13:29 | silbe | eben: and yes, i recommend installing Sugar so you can actually give it a try :-P |
| 13:29 | erikos | ok - lets try: naming alert |
| 13:29 | garycmartin | eben: they were in the Keep palette, but Keep is confusing everyone. I think Walter started the trend to separate out the export types as individual items, so blame him ;-b |
| 13:29 | erikos | does everyone agree that directly going to the detail journal view is a good thing to do? |
| 13:30 | christianmarcsch | i agree |
| 13:30 | erikos | and get rid of the naming alert |
| 13:30 | eben | Maybe keep should not have a primary action. And only open the palette on click with things like "keep new version", "keep a copy", "keep as PDF" etc listed clearly....but I'll wait for another thread. :) |
| 13:30 | silbe | eben: if you tune in on #sugar some time, i can try walking you through some way of getting Sugar onto your computer. |
| 13:30 | eben | erikos: I agree for new activities, but not on every stop... |
| 13:30 | garycmartin | +1, just need to keep in mind to make the details view obvious to escape from. |
| 13:30 | erikos | eben: that would have been my next question ;p |
| 13:31 | silbe | erikos: agreed on -naming alert, +switch to details view |
| 13:31 | christianmarcsch | eben: yes, i agree with that. just new activities |
| 13:31 | silbe | eben: +1 on keep without primary |
| 13:31 | erikos | garycmartin: is escaping not simple enough at the moment? |
| 13:32 | silbe | what about adding a toolbar button to switch to the details view in order to edit metadata while the activity is running? |
| 13:32 | (open issue: how to get back) | |
| 13:32 | garycmartin | erikos: no. It says Back just now in a slightly non standard strop button below the toolbar. |
| 13:32 | eben | silbe: I would actually prefer a "tag/describe" palette, I think. |
| 13:32 | But a "view in Journal" button could also work. | |
| 13:32 | erikos | btw: what would be the behavior when I close an activity (that has already metadata): go to the next open activity, go to home screen...? |
| 13:33 | garycmartin | erikos: "back" to where, if users are landing there after an activity "Stop" |
| 13:33 | eben | I'm just afraid of having another button being confused with keep/save/journal, and think that it also takes you out of the activity context making it more awkward to continue afterward. |
| 13:34 | erikos | garycmartin: hmmmmm |
| 13:34 | silbe | eben: the palettes would be better than nothing, of course. And having both would be an option as well. |
| 13:34 | eben | erikos: I would say next open activity, if you have one, otherwise home |
| 13:34 | garycmartin | erikos: Currently it moves back down the line of open Activities, but I think I'd like to go back to home each time. |
| 13:34 | erikos | garycmartin: or the behavior eben describes |
| 13:34 | silbe | eben: the "filtering" Journal designs used a special icon at least for tags, maybe that would work? |
| 13:34 | eben | garycmartin: My fear there is that kids could forget they have other activities running |
| 13:34 | erikos | garycmartin: next open activity, if you have one, otherwise home |
| 13:35 | eben | It seems we should encourage continuation of existing activities over starting new ones. |
| 13:35 | silbe: Yeah, that's the icon I'd like to see for the tag/desc palette. | |
| 13:36 | silbe | eben: so you'd do a single palette for both tags and description? |
| 13:36 | eben | silbe: yeah, they're closely related, and also adjacent in the Journal. |
| 13:37 | erikos | can we first finish the 'go to journal detail view' ? |
| 13:37 | silbe | eben: i'm still worrying about size constraints |
| 13:37 | eben | Also, I'd like to encourage kids to add both |
| 13:37 | erikos | not sure we are through this yet |
| 13:37 | eben | silbe: It shouldn't be a problem...the palette can be as big as necessary, I think. |
| 13:37 | oh, sorry | |
| 13:38 | silbe | eben: the details view has both as well, so fine with me for now |
| 13:38 | erikos | so the back button in the details view after you closed an activity (first time), where does it brings you to? |
| 13:39 | silbe | erikos: i think there was consensus about -naming alert, +switch to details view on first close (if title not set by user yet) |
| 13:39 | erikos | silbe: yup, but not about the back button |
| 13:39 | eben | erikos: Journal |
| 13:39 | erikos | eben: like it does all the time |
| 13:39 | eben | It should work "normally" |
| 13:39 | yeah | |
| 13:39 | christianmarcsch | eben: yes |
| 13:40 | erikos | eben: though, currently the data is saved on 'back' as for all i know |
| 13:40 | eben: and if a kid just uses the frame to go to another activity? | |
| 13:40 | eben | That puts you in the perfect place to click on any other recent activities, including any already running |
| 13:40 | silbe | erikos: it's saved on focus-out |
| 13:40 | erikos | silbe: ok, great then |
| 13:40 | eben | erikos: This (transfer to Journal details) only happens on stop |
| 13:40 | erikos | eben: jup i know |
| 13:41 | eben | Or, if they're in details, they can press the home key, or use the frame to move around, etc. |
| 13:41 | No special behavior. | |
| 13:41 | erikos | eben: sounds good to me |
| 13:41 | silbe | oh nice, netsplit :-/ |
| 13:41 | erikos | gar.... :/ |
| 13:41 | eben | bah |
| 13:41 | erikos | christianmarcsch: still there? |
| 13:41 | christianmarcsch | yes, still here |
| 13:41 | erikos | ok, so we lost only gary |
| 13:41 | christianmarcsch | but i think i may need to leave soon... |
| 13:42 | i think all sounds good, though | |
| 13:42 | silbe | gary lost? :( |
| 13:42 | christianmarcsch | hmm |
| 13:42 | erikos | christianmarcsch: we made a lot of improvements! |
| 13:42 | shall we then decide now - how we go from here? | |
| 13:42 | christianmarcsch | yes, i agree |
| 13:43 | erikos | (people that wish to - can still keep on discussing of course) |
| 13:43 | silbe | the naming alert stuff is finished, I think |
| 13:43 | christianmarcsch | yes, let's talk about next steps |
| 13:43 | erikos | silbe: yup |
| 13:43 | silbe | what's open is showing more metadata in-activity |
| 13:44 | i guess we need more mockups there anyway | |
| 13:44 | christianmarcsch | is the groups view being addressed in the upcoming build? |
| 13:44 | erikos | christianmarcsch: not at all |
| 13:44 | eben | christianmarcsch: Yeah, that's long overdue for some love. |
| 13:44 | christianmarcsch | and what about bulletin board? |
| 13:44 | eben | We should definitely put that on the schedule for next time (we keep saying that)... |
| 13:44 | silbe | christianmarcsch: patches welcome :-P |
| 13:44 | christianmarcsch | yes... |
| 13:45 | erikos | christianmarcsch: to be honest, we can try to do it for 0.90 |
| 13:45 | eben | christianmarcsch: I think bulletin-board is mostly being handled as an activity, but we should revisit overlay chat! |
| 13:45 | christianmarcsch | the focus always tends to be on home view, which is important, but we should try to get to some of these other issues as well |
| 13:45 | eben: ah, yes | |
| 13:45 | erikos | christianmarcsch: yup |
| 13:45 | christianmarcsch: i still hope that we could do those design meetings more regularly | |
| 13:45 | silbe | that leaves font config, thumbs view, color selector and tags (Journal) for the next meeting |
| 13:45 | christianmarcsch | can someone remind me which build number we are up to? |
| 13:45 | silbe | can we do one next week? |
| 13:45 | eben | activty-wide chat would be wonderful....and we have some mockups we can revisit and publish as a feature for .90 |
| 13:45 | erikos | christianmarcsch: and that we get a better and static process going |
| 13:46 | christianmarcsch | right |
| 13:46 | silbe | christianmarcsch: I don't think there are build numbers anymore |
| 13:46 | christianmarcsch | i'm available for another meeting next weekend, same time... |
| 13:46 | eben | thumb_view++, btw. |
| 13:46 | erikos | eben: sounds good to me |
| 13:46 | alsroot: eben likes thumbs view!!! | |
| 13:46 | christianmarcsch | thumb view? |
| 13:46 | erikos | christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]s_View_in_Journal |
| 13:46 | eben | christianmarcsch http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Thumbs.png |
| 13:47 | christianmarcsch | ah yes |
| 13:47 | very nice | |
| 13:47 | alsroot | since thumbs was already discussed last release cycle, I guess we can skip this topic |
| 13:47 | christianmarcsch | it looks great |
| 13:47 | i also remember doing mockups for the list view | |
| 13:47 | erikos | christianmarcsch: it is even implemeneted |
| 13:47 | christianmarcsch: just needs to be moved over to the latest code | |
| 13:47 | christianmarcsch | erikos: good to know. i need to get the latest version installed |
| 13:48 | erikos: i see | |
| 13:48 | silbe | thumb views looks good to me as well, so maybe lets just agree on it now? |
| 13:48 | eben | It's basically the mockup we made before, minus the checkboxes (since we don't have multi-select yet) |
| 13:48 | christianmarcsch | thumbs looks really good |
| 13:48 | silbe | alsroot: it still looks like in the mockup, does it? |
| 13:48 | eben | Actually, I think a combination of that and this (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]:Journal-10.jpeg) would be good. I think we need the bold titles, and the extra space this number of items allows...but anyway....next week we can discuss it in detail. |
| 13:48 | silbe | oh the stars are for selection, not favourites? |
| 13:48 | christianmarcsch | right, the checkboxes would be great to add once we can multi-select |
| 13:48 | alsroot | silbe: nope, it was implemented, and I'm adapting them right now |
| 13:49 | erikos | garycmartin: is back! |
| 13:49 | christianmarcsch | hmm, the arrows look different |
| 13:49 | garycmartin | sorry IRC servers stoped responding for a while |
| 13:49 | alsroot | silbe: stars for staring only |
| 13:49 | erikos | oups :( |
| 13:49 | silbe | poor gary... |
| 13:49 | christianmarcsch | should we save this for next weekend then? |
| 13:50 | silbe | ok, let's move it then |
| 13:50 | christianmarcsch | one thing that has always bothered me is that the dropdowns look huge |
| 13:50 | isn't there anything we can do about that? | |
| 13:50 | eben | Yeah...that's a thorn in my side. |
| 13:50 | erikos | would you guys be available next week? |
| 13:50 | eben | I'm available. |
| 13:50 | christianmarcsch | i'm available too |
| 13:51 | silbe | too probably |
| 13:51 | eben | Would an earlier start be possible for everyone? |
| 13:51 | silbe | sure |
| 13:51 | garycmartin | I could make it. |
| 13:51 | eben | say 10EST instead of 11EST? |
| 13:51 | christianmarcsch | i could perhaps do 10:30 |
| 13:51 | silbe | so 15UTC? |
| 13:51 | christianmarcsch | can we say 15:30UTC? |
| 13:51 | erikos | eben: works for me |
| 13:52 | garycmartin | fine here. |
| 13:52 | silbe | christianmarcsch: just the same to me |
| 13:52 | christianmarcsch | 10:30 then? eben? |
| 13:52 | eben | That would work, too....especially if we can keep them to about an hour by having them more often....weekly, even. |
| 13:53 | christianmarcsch | yes, i'd prefer that too--shorter, and more often |
| 13:53 | erikos | eben: +1 |
| 13:53 | eben | Sounds good. |
| 13:53 | erikos | ok so next week at 15:30 |
| 13:53 | UTC | |
| 13:54 | I will post minutes about the decisions from today | |
| 13:54 | christianmarcsch | great |
| 13:54 | talk to you next week! | |
| 13:54 | erikos | is very happy! |
| 13:54 | garycmartin | Sorry I lost connection for the end (will read the log) |
| 13:54 | erikos | christianmarcsch: enjoy your weekend |
| 13:54 | silbe | see you all next week (and some tomorrow :) ) |
| 13:54 | christianmarcsch | erikos: thanks, you too! productive session today |
| 13:54 | garycmartin | thanks all, nice to meet up again at last! |
| 13:54 | erikos | thanks to everyone!!! |
| 13:54 | christianmarcsch | thanks everyone |
| 13:55 | eben | bye, everyone |
| 13:55 | christianmarcsch | bye |
| 13:55 | silbe | bye |
| 13:55 | wooah, almost 3 hours of meeting... | |
| 13:56 | and a good one, of course. | |
| 13:57 | erikos | silbe: hehe |
| 14:01 | #endmeeting |
![http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]:Journal-10.jpeg)](http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Journal-10.jpeg)){kind=link}