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#sugar-meeting, 2009-07-13

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
10:35 walterbender hi
10:35 sdziallas #TOPIC Sugar on a Stick v2 -- General Discussion
10:35 hi everybody :)
10:35 caroline hi, is there a wiki page we should all have open for reference?
10:36 sdziallas caroline: yup, the roadmap would be useful, I think
10:36 #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]n_a_Stick/Roadmap
10:36 that's actually where I'd like to start, too
10:37 the reason why I wanted to get us together is that I'd like to set the way for the next SoaS release and mainly it's features.
10:37 what we need are well defined features, on which people can work then.
10:38 caroline drafted already her needs for an actual use case, a deployment up. (thanks) :)
10:38 caroline I came up with a list and someone was kind enough to put themin the wiki for me. Anyone know where it is?
10:38 sdziallas #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]_on_a_Stick/Goals
10:38 caroline: ^^
10:38 caroline cool, need to add: All activities can be updated from a.sl.o
10:38 walterbender many of the things on this list are Sugar bugs/features, not SoaS features
10:39 we should not confuse the two
10:39 sdziallas walterbender: that's something we should sort out somehow, yeah (the same goes probably the "preliminary feature" list on the roadmap's page)
10:39 tomeu one soas2 feature would be sugar 0.86?
10:39 caroline +1
10:39 sdziallas tomeu: yup, definitely :)
10:40 caroline Backup and Restore with School Server - This might be a SoaS specific goal.
10:40 Sugar on a Stick works with a VM, - definitely SoaS specific
10:41 sdziallas yup, agreed!
10:41 caroline A Sugar machine can also run a SoaS -  where does this one belong?
10:42 Sugar works on lesser hardware, say Pentium III 256M - Ths is another questionable one. I think its actually a Sugar goal. Because people might want to run it installed on these machines.
10:42 tomeu backup may need some bits done in upstream sugar?
10:42 sdziallas caroline: the "one lesser hardware" one is a Sugar related, I'd say.
10:42 daveb not in sugar but related packages.
10:42 caroline I think it actually mostly works now, we just need to get it into an actual release.
10:42 daveb well registration os soas requies sugar change.
10:43 tomeu caroline, sdziallas: well, there are ways in which a packager can make sugar run worse on slower hardware
10:43 caroline and changes on XS
10:43 tomeu or better
10:43 so it could be a goal for both, but we should specify what improvements are needed (memory, etc)
10:43 caroline Another one to add to the list is More Hardware Supported
10:43 daveb caroline: i don't think it requires any changes on the XS.
10:44 sdziallas caroline, daveb: for the schoolserver, we might want to ping Martin (Langhoff)...
10:44 daveb right. we'll keep him in the loop. he also is working on the client side packages.
10:44 satellit install directly on lesser machine? Instlall disk?
10:44 caroline What is our goal for this meeting? should we be diving into solutions? Should be be making a list? Do we want it prioritized today?
10:45 sdziallas well, I'd love to see a list with our goals, sorted out, here
10:45 #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]a_Stick/Proposals
10:45 we don't need necessarily owners, yet (I started with firstboot & install support)
10:46 walterbender If we can just sort out the Sugar vs SoaS vs XS features that would be an accomplishment
10:46 caroline who is the owner? the one who will do the programming or the champion that needs it done?
10:46 sdziallas caroline: maybe we should add a "reporter" field there, too. owner is the one who does the programming, imo.
10:46 walterbender: yeah, +1
10:47 caroline why don't we call it Champion, its such a cool name :)
10:47 and a reporter might be someone who finds it then walks away.
10:47 sdziallas grins... I won't prevent you from calling it that way :p
10:47 tomeu caroline++
10:47 sdziallas hi erikos :)
10:47 tomeu we may list several people, btw
10:47 caroline We also need on this page a way to indicate what priority it has
10:48 sdziallas yeah, right. so another priority field!
10:48 caroline #Action Add Sugar on a Stick works with a VM to the Proposal Page
10:49 Combine Sugar Live CD, Boothelper, & USB Creator on one image - Is this a dup with a   Live Install Support
10:50 sdziallas I'm not sure... proabably. Live Install support means you can install SoaS to your harddisk...
10:51 caroline Its your call. Do you want one big proposal for the super duper installer CD or do you want it broken up?
10:52 sdziallas caroline: well, the install-to-harddisk support will come (hopefully) anyway... I'd go for an extra feature.
10:53 caroline #Action turn Combine Sugar Live CD, Boothelper, & USB Creator on one image into a proposal
10:54 sdziallas next! :)
10:54 tomeu I think it needs to be in allcaps
10:54 for the bot to notice
10:54 caroline Do we need a proposal for Make all activities updatable via A.sl.org
10:54 #ACTION turn Combine Sugar Live CD, Boothelper, & USB Creator on one image into a proposal
10:54 sdziallas caroline: definitely! (even though this shouldn't take too long)
10:55 caroline #ACTION Make a proposal to have all activities updatable via A.sl.org
10:55 sdziallas (posting from above)
10:55 #ACTION Add Sugar on a Stick works with a VM to the Proposal Page
10:55 caroline Sugar on a Stick works with a VM - This is requires SoaS has accessible files
10:56 should we have two proposals?
10:56 Do people know what I mean by accessible files, is there a better way to say that?
10:56 tomeu doesn't know
10:56 daveb do you mean you can get inside the squashfs?
10:56 sdziallas caroline: you don't want the user's files to be into a compressed image on the usb key...
10:56 daveb the VM could mount it
10:56 caroline Right now Fedora is storing everything on the stick in images so no other system can see it.
10:57 sdziallas daveb: I guess that's the right direction
10:57 daveb its not clear with "with a VM" means
10:57 caroline right so do we have two proposals here?
10:57 sdziallas caroline: yup!
10:57 walterbender independent of VM, not having access to the user files outside of Sugar is a bug
10:58 satellit virtualbox and VMPlayer compatable files?
10:58 sdziallas caroline: though I think the "works with a VM" also concerns "have a joint release of VMs / USB key images"...
10:58 caroline #ACTION make files accessible outside of Sugar Proposal.
10:58 #ACTION - SoaS works with a free VM client - Proposal
10:58 sdziallas satellit: yup, definitely a feature. should go into joint release for VMs / USB keys / XOs.
10:59 daveb i think we need live install to make VMs containing soas viable.
10:59 caroline is that a 3rd propoal, that we have simulatnous releases or is that an implementation detail?
10:59 ok
11:00 #ACTION proposal for joint release for VMs / USB keys / XOs.
11:00 daveb i think that was already listed?
11:00 sdziallas daveb: you mean having SoaS installed on to the VMs hard drive?!
11:00 daveb sdziallas: yes
11:00 sdziallas daveb: I agree then :)
11:00 satellit boot CD with VMPlayer or virtualbox loaded and running from CD?
11:01 caroline satellit - maybe the proposal is to create a VMPlayer CD that allows boot by CD then fast user switching?
11:02 satellit yes so a stick inserted in usb can be run from boot cd
11:03 caroline #ACTION create a VMPlayer CD that allows boot by CD then fast user switching - Create proposal
11:03 What about chipsets issues, we need braodcom, we need touchscreen, we'll surely find more things we need to add and track down.
11:04 are those propsosals or is not having a chipset covered a bug and we'll track them each as bugs?
11:04 walterbender I would argue that the way we address that is to make it easy for end users (or intermediaries) to add things
11:04 sdziallas that's a thing how we handle that (with regard to our policies) I guess. I'd call them more bugs than features.
11:04 walterbender but not to add them at the Fedora or Sugar Labs level...
11:04 caroline walterbender, which them?
11:05 walterbender Fedora should decide what drivers it is comfortable to ship...
11:05 we can make recommendations, but it is their call
11:05 caroline I think we should actively encourage Fedora to have good chipset coverage.
11:05 walterbender and SoaS shouldn't drift from Fedora
11:05 caroline and also help distrubtors create custom spins to fill holes.
11:06 walterbender caroline: sure... but it will be a headache for any number of reasons for sdz to maintain a list of drivers that Fedora won ship
11:06 uonuon't
11:06 tomeu caroline: we should understand first the reasons why fedora isn't shipping them
11:06 walterbender aarg... playing with the US International keyboard
11:06 caroline I think we agree mostly, but I think we need to be actively helpful. Someone needs to maintain that list and that someone probaably is on Sdz's team.
11:06 dsd_ fedora do a good job of hardware support, even brand new stuff, and are actively on-the-case
11:06 caroline tomeu, yes, and make sure they are sure about those reasons.
11:06 dsd_ i wouldnt have thought this is much of a concern for sugar
11:07 walterbender if we make it easy to add things downstream, then we don't need to second-guess Fedora
11:07 caroline I think we do need to keep track of what works and what doesn't and why and how to fix.
11:07 tomeu dsd_: well, for some deployers it may be
11:07 walterbender dsd_: it is more the old stuff, not the new stuff :)
11:07 tomeu not so much for sugar itself
11:07 caroline walterbender. I think we done need to interact with Fedora, they need to know someone cares.
11:07 dsd_ i worry that sugar is moving too much into distribution land
11:07 when there are already many experts doing that job outside
11:07 caroline dsd_ there is no one else out there in distribution land.
11:07 dsd_ and there is so much sugar work to be done as "just an upstream"
11:08 walterbender caroline: agreed, but we cannot count on their always agreeing... downstream, you need to be able to customize
11:08 sdziallas_ got disconnected, sorry
11:08 caroline right, we need to actively work both sides to make work steadily on increasing the hardware coverage.
11:08 dsd_ if F11 doesnt work for a particular deployment? get them to work with fedora
11:08 tomeu dsd_: this is a soas meeting, not sugar ;)
11:08 caroline dsd_ there is no them.
11:08 walterbender dsd_: exactly my point. SoaS shouldn't second-guess Fedora... we should just make sure that downstream from there, there is a way to add things
11:09 sdziallas walterbender: maybe this could result in a "make customization of SoaS easier" proposal?
11:09 caroline so far we have gotten Fedora to add what we need. I don't see why we shoudl assume they won't in the future. They might not, but I think mostly they will want to.
11:09 dsd_ caroline: fedora already is a distribution, that supports a lot of hardware, and strives to support more and more. there is a them :)
11:09 walterbender sdziallas: yes
11:09 sdziallas (hinting at trademark stuff here, but that should be discussed at a different time) :)
11:10 walterbender dsd_: there will always be a gap between what Fedora can/will do and what some deplyment needs...
11:10 caroline no the them that doesn't exist is the deployment, right now the deployments are an US. Hoepfully in the next round after Novemeber there will be some Them deployments.
11:10 walterbender dsd_: so sdziallas ís on the right track, IMHO
11:10 dsd_ which track is that?
11:10 sdziallas caroline: just btw, I saw the (open source) broadcom driver might have finally made it into Fedora
11:10 walterbender sdziallas: I need to disappear for a meeting across campus...
11:10 erikos caroline: that is not correct, I have two deployments here in germany
11:10 caroline sdz exactly my point and I think we had a hand in makign that happen.
11:11 erikos, aren't you part of us?
11:11 walterbender dsd_: ' make customization of SoaS easier'
11:11 sdziallas walterbender: yeah, okay ;) thanks for being here! catch you later...
11:11 erikos caroline: i read US as US ;p
11:11 caroline: USA
11:11 caroline sorry I meant Us vs Them
11:11 dsd_ walterbender: ok, agreed..that sounds more scalable than entering the driver game
11:11 erikos caroline: sorry, I am sleepy today
11:11 caroline right now all of us doing deployments of SoaS are SugarLabs insiders and thus its this team working these issues.
11:11 erikos goes back to sleeping position
11:12 sdziallas dsd_: it's the "follow Fedora as closely as possible but encourage people to do customizations" track :)
11:12 tomeu also understood US as in US :p
11:12 caroline hopefully by Nov it'll be more like OLPC with some people who are quite separate doing deployments.
11:12 dsd_ sdziallas: as long as you communicate "customizations are expensive" as well
11:12 walterbender also thought of the US of A :)
11:12 caroline and I'd like to add, actively communicate with Fedora about what we need.
11:12 sorry
11:12 walterbender has to run... will see caroline in a few hours
11:12 tomeu I'm a bit lost, what are we discussing now?
11:13 sdziallas dsd_: yeah, good point actually...
11:13 caroline erikos, it woudl be awesome if you also posted updates about your pilots to IAEP.
11:13 erikos caroline: i blog about it
11:13 caroline we are discussiiong the fact between now and Nov we'll spend a lot of time fussing about chipset support.
11:13 sdziallas tomeu: you're right...
11:14 dsd_ caroline: you envision attacking chipset support in general, or only for the machines included in the GPA and erikos deployments?
11:14 caroline I think its going to be a big part of our work in general.
11:14 dsd_ its a horrible game to be a part of
11:14 and very distracting..
11:14 caroline Its not been that bad.
11:14 its really our core mission for SoaS.
11:14 not a distraction.
11:14 satellit is there a usb wireless adapter that works in soas?
11:15 caroline Its not the most fun but with persistance we've made a lot of progress.
11:15 satellit rather than fix all chipsets?
11:15 tomeu satellit: I would think so
11:15 caroline satellit, that requires people to buy things so that is not always a great solution.
11:16 satellit but it might be a solution interim
11:16 caroline We've done great in the last few months, I think if we just keep at it one problem at a time we'll make a lot of progress.
11:16 tomeu but I guess soas itself doesn't need to attack the hw problem?
11:16 caroline I thnk we should have a process for dealing with and tracking what works, doesn't, why and work arounds and who is working on upstream fixes.
11:17 tomeu could be something done between the deployer and fedora
11:17 caroline no
11:17 dsd_ i agree with tomeu
11:17 caroline I disagree.
11:17 tomeu once something gets solved, any of them prods the soas guy
11:17 caroline: I don't see how soas people can attack that problem themselves
11:17 caroline the people doing the deployments don't have the skillsets, we need to track and work the issues.
11:17 tomeu caroline: they are not in the field nor can influence packages such as the kernel
11:17 caroline tomeu we've done it already
11:18 tomeu caroline: but does it need to be done inside the soas project?
11:18 caroline yes, it is the SoaS project
11:18 its the core of it. Its making Sugar work with what you have.
11:18 tomeu ?
11:19 caroline: who is "you' there?
11:19 caroline You is the teacher and the school.
11:19 and the parent.
11:20 tomeu I don't know why is good that the soas people get involved at that level, but it's not my call
11:20 dsd_ i have to go..i'm admittedly a bit uninformed on the whole situation but my closing personal concern i have is that soas scope is growing and growing and taking a few too many resources away from sugar
11:20 caroline we've done incredible work in this so far. We will never get to 100% but getting more and more hardware to work is the core of what we are doing.
11:21 tomeu I'm worried in general about resource management, yeah
11:21 sdziallas hrms.
11:21 tomeu quite a bit of the open source processes are meant to optimize resources
11:21 caroline nod
11:21 sdziallas thinks.
11:22 caroline We will get done what we get done when we get it done.
11:22 tomeu if we are going to reinvent our own organizational processes from scratch, it will take us a good while to reach a good place
11:22 caroline but to me the goal is to let people, teachers, kids, use Sugar with the resourcs they have. and getting it to work on lots of chipset is core to that mission.
11:22 and we are doing GREAT so far. So I don't see why we should give up.
11:23 tomeu who said give up?
11:23 erikos caroline: the thing is - who do you think is Soas?
11:23 caroline to me sayiing someone else shousl do it is givign up.
11:24 tomeu caroline: it could be the same people, I was referring to defining the scope of each project
11:24 caroline erikos, good question! I dont have a good answer.
11:24 tomeu caroline: we may be discussing in circles because we attach a different meaning to the same words
11:24 caroline yes
11:24 I think that is probably true.
11:25 erikos caroline: yeah, I guess we each have different visions
11:25 tomeu if sugarlabs is composed by people that deploy sugar and we agree that deployments have a place in sugarlabs, then SLs should cater for the needs of those people
11:25 but that's SLs, which is quite broad
11:25 now we were talking about soas
11:26 caroline To me the SoaS team enables people around the world to use Sugar on their existing hardware and in a situation where kids do not have 1-1 computesr they can take home so they carry their data on an external storage device.
11:26 tomeu should be part of soas directly supporting people in the field, or should be a layer in between?
11:26 caroline I think between now and next Nov we should not add another layer but that someday we should.
11:27 tomeu caroline: so the soas project should give direct support to teachers, parents, kids, etc?
11:28 caroline Walter and I are. we are in the school with teachers and students
11:28 and will be in the fall.
11:28 So to me that is just the current reality of it.
11:28 tomeu caroline: and your project in that school is part of the soas project?
11:28 or is a different project?
11:29 caroline good question. I think yes, I think its the pilot for Sugar on a Stick.
11:29 erikos caroline: but as you said, every school and hardware is different, so everybody going into a school will have different issues
11:29 tomeu caroline: and you think this is going to scale? or in the future deployments will be different projects?
11:30 erikos caroline: I am sure I have different one than you
11:30 caroline no I dont; think its going to scale. Thats why its just a pilot. clearly we can't scale it with Walter and I and erikos at the schools.
11:31 but I also think I can't do the pilot without the team's support and that we can't scale till we've done some succesful pilots.
11:31 erikos caroline: for me - soas is a live version of Sugar and Fedora
11:31 caroline: sugar feedback is going to the Sugar upstream project
11:31 caroline for me its jsut Fedora today
11:31 erikos caroline: hardware feedback to Fedora
11:32 tomeu caroline: but it being a different project doesn't mean that you don't get support. just means that there are some processes in place to make support more efficient
11:32 erikos caroline: how so - just Fedora?
11:32 caroline someday it might also be Ubuntu or Chrome or Suse
11:32 to me SoaS is about the mission. Letting students use Sugar on different machines in different locations.
11:33 tomeu caroline: all the people working on soas share that mission?
11:33 sdziallas ah! very basic discussion here... let me put it this way, as I already did in this one e-mail:
11:33 caroline tomeu, yes I think we are goign round and round because I don't think its time to formalize those processses yet.
11:33 to me you don't formalize soemthing till you've got it working once.
11:34 tomeu caroline: ok, it's good we are talking about this, I think we are getting somewhere
11:34 caroline but I think we both absoltely agree we will need formal proceedures. To me I image them comign into being over time and being there by middle of next sprng.
11:34 sdziallas Sugar on a Stick is not Fedora to me. It's more than Fedora. It's its own distribution, *based on* Fedora. That's it.
11:34 caroline I am worried if we tryto put them in place now we'll get it worng.
11:35 because we need tomake this work for schools and teachers.
11:35 to me the WE here the SoaS team is the people who will try to create glue between teachers and the open source world.
11:36 that is the crucial process we need tofigure out. and honestly I don't know how to do it yet. i think that is why I'm resisting making the process.
11:36 cause the process tht will work for me, Walter and Erikos will not scale down to teachers. We need to learn what we have to do to make something that will.
11:36 that is the hard work ahead of us.
11:36 does that make sense?
11:38 erikos sdziallas: yup
11:38 tomeu caroline: I think I see your POV, but I think it's a bit far away from the open source way of working. that's not to say that it won't work, just that it won't magically fit in the way open source people work unless a lot of things are made explicit
11:38 let me explain how I see things as a FOSS developer:
11:39 - I spend my time on solving some issues that I think are needed by other people
11:39 - as I won't be bringing the fruit of my work to those users, I will have to make possible for the people who will actually do that to take my work and convert it in something deployable
11:40 mchua reads back in discussion, interested
11:40 tomeu - as I won't be doing everything from scratch, I'm going to be asking other projects to do stuff for me (or accept my changes and improvements)
11:40 sdziallas waves to mchua, still thinking...
11:41 tomeu caroline: now, that doesn't make much sense for companies or people not in the foss world
11:41 the straight line for them is to take the products from other projects they need, bang on them until it works, then make something they can deploy
11:42 that's what Sun did with GNOME, what OLPC did with fedora, and most other companies that were new at working with FOSS
11:42 caroline tomeu, maybe we can agree that we have a hard problem we are wroking on. Empowering teachers and schools without a lot of company or IT department support to use Sugar effectively with students who don't have 1 laptop each.
11:42 tomeu what makes it hard to explain this is that in order to understand the benefits of playing the upstream/downstream game, you need to understand why the straight line might not be the shortest
11:42 and you need experience for that
11:43 caroline: who are we here?
11:43 caroline No one ever said anything about the greater OLPC mission was easy, just important. To me this is the core problem that the SoaS team, technical and notechnical is working on.
11:43 tomeu, Sugar Labs and its Sugar on a Stick team.
11:44 tomeu hmm, I think we didn't met each other at the middle
11:46 mchua might be missing some context for this discussion... is the question about whether SoaS is downstream from SL, or within it? (on both technical/organizational levels, and how the development vs the deployment works?)
11:46 caroline good question
11:47 and are we getting too far off of sdz's agenda which was to put in proposals for Nov?
11:47 tomeu mchua: one aspect of the discussion is if soas is intended to be consumed as-is (so the project supports all its users directly) or if there's someone in the middle
11:47 sdziallas: back to you
11:47 sdziallas caroline: it was slightly shifting but I think this discussion here is really important.
11:48 caroline I guess I'd like to create a proposal to figure out a system for tracking chipsets and for making steady progress on increasing our coverage.
11:48 tomeu yeah, defining the project goals and scope might be a prerequisite of deciding the roadmap
11:48 caroline sdz, its an awesome discussion but I have to go really soon.
11:48 sdziallas caroline: maybe this can help: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]_a_Stick/Hardware
11:48 tomeu caroline: do you realize that's a goal of the fedora project?
11:48 caroline yes
11:49 and I guess I'm just saying the SoaS team has a role and should allocate resources to interfacing with Fedora and testers.
11:49 I think Fedora really cares about us btw.
11:49 mchua thanks, tomeu - that helps a lot. sdziallas, maybe this is something to take to the mailing list, if caroline has to go soon...
11:49 caroline I think they have been awesome and really want to help us.
11:50 sdziallas mchua: yeah, makes sense... but I'm fearing that we're running in circles, too.
11:50 caroline I actaully really think we've made tremendous progress talking in real time.
11:50 tomeu caroline: one important aspect of FOSS is that projects care more about the users that know how to interface with them
11:50 mchua One of the things that's hard to figure out is *how* Fedora can help Sugar, speaking from my just-one-person-from-the-Fedora-side-of-things voice.
11:51 caroline tomeu right so part of the SoaS goal is figuring out how to be the interface between the teachers and things like Fedora.
11:51 tomeu caroline: I agree soas should interface directly with fedora
11:51 caroline as you point out its vitally important and its a hard problem.
11:51 mchua One of the things I've been trying to do, while working on edu stuff for RH, is trying to find concrete ways the two projects can help each other. Why Sugar/SoaS succeeding == Fedora++, how we can help that happen.
11:51 tomeu caroline: but I'm not sure it's just soas which should do that
11:51 mchua So suggestions would be uber-welcome.
11:51 caroline tomeu I'm not sure either.
11:52 erikos mchua: I think it is just about being reponsive to bugs - hardware support
11:52 mchua: that is mostly what is needed, imho
11:52 sdziallas mchua: help me convincing jlaska to get us a test day ;) (just kidding, but we should try to identify intersections)...
11:52 caroline As I said I don't know the right answers, so to me the task for this fall is to try thngs and try to find the right answer. So I'm resistant to putting policies into stone.
11:52 mchua erikos: so, SoaS as the source of lots of good hardware feedback?
11:52 caroline cause the way its always worked for Open Source is not going to directly translate down to teachers.
11:53 tomeu caroline: ok, as a bystander, I think you and sdziallas should agree on what soas is. I'm not sure you do from earlier comments
11:53 mchua sdziallas: +1. i believe I'll be seeing jlaska in about 2 weeks btw, if it helps
11:53 erikos mchua: yes, and I do think they have to do anything special compared to their other users
11:53 tomeu caroline: +1
11:53 sdziallas mchua: see how many people already already submitted their hardware configuration using SoaS: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]_a_Stick/Hardware
11:53 mchua: we should talk about that (maybe after the meeting or some other day...) :)
11:54 mchua sdziallas: whoa. AWESOME
11:54 caroline and Firstboot Inclusion - this extends that right?
11:54 erikos has to leave
11:54 sdziallas caroline: exactly. each user will be directly given the possibility to submit the hardware profile, I he wants to.
11:54 waves to erikos
11:54 erikos sdziallas: ttyl
11:55 sdziallas yup!
11:55 caroline ok so we need a proposal that says we need a process, with both human and automated compontents for Sugar hardware coverage.
11:55 sdziallas +1
11:55 mchua has to go also
11:56 caroline how shoudl we phrase that?
11:56 sdziallas waves to mchua... ttyl! :)
11:56 caroline thanks mel
11:57 sdziallas maybe something like finding better ways of gathering feedback, both automated and manual, in terms of issues and hardware support?
11:57 tomeu sugar hardware coverage? or soas?
11:57 mchua will be back on irc later, would love to continue this convo
11:57 sdziallas cool!
11:57 caroline sdz, yes
11:57 sdziallas tomeu: this would be soas. this point is about establishing a connection point to Fedora.
11:58 caroline tomeu, you tell me, how much difference is there?
11:58 tomeu caroline: sugar can be said to support some hardware such as input methods, but should be pretty much independent
11:58 caroline Also who are the people who are champions of Sugar not on a Stick and not on a XO?
11:59 garycmartin tomeu: +1
11:59 tomeu caroline: well, working on a UI written in python involves a set of skills very different from debugging a hw issue
11:59 caroline tomeu I don't understand what you said
11:59 right, different people work these issues.
12:00 tomeu caroline: sugar is a set of components that, architecturally speaking, are quite far away from the hardware
12:00 caroline: it can be said that sugar needs to improve its support for touchscreens
12:00 caroline: but not that sugar doesn't support XYZ wifi card
12:01 caroline right those are both different bugs
12:01 tomeu soas is an operating system, sugar is just a dozen of software modules that run on top of the rest of the OS
12:01 caroline and have differnet priorities
12:01 tomeu and different people should work on them, etc
12:01 caroline sure
12:02 and they both need working on, and they'll both get worked on as we get volunteers who care and have the skills to work them.
12:02 our goal in these meetings is to get all these things clearly on to road maps and separated so that volunteers can come work on them.
12:02 right?
12:04 tomeu well, as I said, I'm not sure how we can make a roadmap for a project if we don't agree first on its scope
12:05 but though I will work on soas stuff at some points, I don't consider myself a driving force behind it
12:05 caroline maybe, altough agreeing on all the things that need to be done then sorthing them is not a bad way to work on things.
12:05 What do you see your role as Tomeu?
12:05 sdziallas already knows what tomeu's going to say :)
12:06 tomeu caroline: in soas? I'm an upstream developer that realizes that there's not enough people to work on soas
12:06 caroline: so I will have to make sure it works there after the sugar code freeze
12:07 so I will be working in soas, but with a limited role
12:07 caroline but what we have time to do between now in Novemer is not this meeting, thats the meeting where we go over proposals.
12:07 clearly not everything will get done for V2.
12:07 that doesn't mean we don't make proposals
12:07 sdziallas which is why I wanted this meeting
12:07 I don't want proposals to come up late in the dev cycle
12:07 I want them NOW :)
12:08 caroline also we add people all the time. If we have proposals that we don't think will get in and we get a volunteer then we can still get it worked on. If we don't have a propsal its a lot harder for a new person to contribute.
12:09 Also this project of keeping track of chipsets and investigating what and why for each one. Its a very different skillset then python programming.
12:09 so hopefully its a very different resource that is doing it.
12:10 I have had 3 new volunteers last week. I have two new ones coming this week.  Knowing what we need done and what skills it needs is really important to me right now.
12:11 sdziallas nods...
12:13 caroline sdz, can you ty to create an action for a propsoal, we can modify it on the wiki.
12:13 I have to pack the car and drive to LFG
12:13 tomue, great disucssion! Thank you so much.
12:13 sdziallas caroline: yup, I will. I just noticed that the other action items didn't make it in our meeting log. I'll end them and end the meeting then.
12:13 caroline thanks!! biab
12:14 tomeu cheers!
12:14 sdziallas thanks everybody for the meeting :)
12:14 garycmartin sdziallas: a little short notice, will read the back log :-)
12:14 sdziallas #ACTION turn Combine Sugar Live CD, Boothelper, & USB Creator on one image into a proposal
12:14 #ACTION Make a proposal to have all activities updatable via A.sl.org
12:15 #ACTION make files accessible outside of Sugar Proposal
12:15 #ACTION - SoaS works with a free VM client - Proposal
12:15 #ACTION proposal for joint release for VMs / USB keys / XOs.
12:15 #ACTION create a VMPlayer CD that allows boot by CD then fast user switching - Create proposal
12:15 garycmartin: yeah, sorry... I know :/ but still good to have you here :)
12:17 garycmartin only made it here in time by booting the SoaS.iso, readonly, in a VM :-)
12:17 sdziallas garycmartin: that demonstrates that our software actually works :)
12:18 garycmartin sdziallas: :-)
12:19 sdziallas garycmartin, tomeu: anything else we should discuss (seems like we're the only remaining)?
12:20 tomeu sdziallas: nope ;)
12:20 sdziallas okey dokey... I'll end this then, we can continue if needed anyway ;)
12:20 satellit sdziallas: the boot CD with VMPlayer or virtualbox could also sense usb insertion and run VM on insertion?
12:21 sdziallas counting... (always wanted to do this)
12:21 satellit: I'm not sure... it could be possible.
12:21 garycmartin sdziallas: that first action point above looks real nice to me. I have major dificulties getting a working stick, actually since Strawberry I've not been able to do it any more :-( but that mey be my USB sticks failing, hard to tell.
12:22 sdziallas garycmartin: the one to have it run in a VM, you mean?
12:22 satellit sdzillas: openSUSE distributes a .raw file for usb. could we?
12:22 sdziallas thinks we also need priorities (as discussed) for the different proposals.
12:22 satellit: what's the advantage of having a .raw file around? (I honestly don't know)
12:23 satellit with dd command you make a bootable USB Soas
12:23 garycmartin sdziallas: No problems with VMs, just no luck making up a working stick (from Fedora) or converting the .iso to a .img and .crc for direct install on an XO.
12:23 sdziallas hm! I'm not sure. I'd actually like to have one *working* method instead of three half-working ones.
12:24 garycmartin: I heard that we might get something from Martin (Dengler) soooooonish :)
12:24 garycmartin sdziallas: me too :-)
12:24 sdziallas satellit: lfaraone was working on something, if I recall correctly...
12:25 satellit: we should investigate the different types of distribution, I'd say, yes.
12:25 satellit k
12:26 sdziallas ends meeting, thanks everybody!
12:26 #endmeeting

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