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#sugar-meeting, 2009-06-09

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
10:03 homunq quick roll call...
10:03 bemasc is here
10:03 homunq silbe bemasc lucian iwikiwi subzero BryanWB
10:03 iwikiwi yep here
10:03 lucian homunq: here
10:03 silbe is listening
10:03 BryanWB homunq: here
10:03 homunq walterbender aa
10:04 aa hola!
10:05 homunq OK, who wants to run the meeting today?
10:05 subzero homunq: here
10:05 mchua is here
10:05 iwikiwi aa: should we start?
10:06 homunq #topic iwikiwi aa karma
10:06 aa s/karma/print/
10:06 iwikiwi: go ahead :)
10:07 iwikiwi okay, we had been having lots of problems with the moodle side, but thankfully martin had took his time, and we have a clear procedure to follow
10:07 on the coding side, a coupla bug fixes to print, and making xml-rpc work
10:07 blogged it
10:08 http://materializingsweetness.wordpress.com/
10:08 I estimate in 2 and half weeks moodle side should be done with good
10:09 walterbender is here
10:09 lucian walterbender: hey
10:09 aa I think it might take a bit longer
10:09 but that's ok
10:10 iwikiwi hmm, i guess it could, we need to be in touch with martin regularly
10:10 homunq my only recommendation is not to put all the bells and whistles on moodle until you've finished the rest
10:11 I mean, "finished" the first draft.
10:11 get something working then move on for now.
10:11 that will also let you block on Martin less - of course, always make time to talk to him when he has time.
10:12 aa homunq: that was my recommendation as well
10:12 iwikiwi aa, homunq, so for now I get back to print?
10:12 aa but we also want to deliver something that works asap
10:12 homunq iwikiwi: get the basics done in moodle
10:13 aa and take some feedback
10:13 homunq but try to draw the line.
10:13 iwikiwi oh okay, i already have a inferior model up
10:13 that is its under assignments as opposed to directly under modules
10:14 so its one more layer down the heirarchy
10:14 I could always go back to it as fallback
10:14 s/a/an
10:14 homunq ok.
10:15 aa writing a module is not that harder than writing an assignment, but thats ok if you already have it
10:15 homunq It sounds as if you're doing OK, keep it up
10:15 #topic lucian walterbender
10:15 lucian homunq: i've been playing around with Browse and how I could integrate SSBs into sugar
10:16 i have rather primitive 'create ssb' in Browse right now
10:16 SSBs are just copies of Browse with an extra toolbar
10:16 but i have run into various trouble with trying to replicate an activity
10:16 walterbender (Rainbow)
10:17 lucian walterbender: yes, mostly that
10:17 tomeu lucian: we can spend some time later in #sugar if you want
10:17 lucian after a chat with bemasc, i've decided to allow the SSBs to create copies of themselves
10:17 basically like curry-ing functions
10:17 so users can make an SSB and customise it with sugar-specific functionality
10:18 and after customisation, they can create an .xo with all the customisation bundled in
10:18 so they can put it on activities.sugarlabs.org or share it
10:18 i've blogged about this a bit, i'll blog some more
10:18 homunq how do they customize it? Develop???
10:18 link
10:18 lucian honeyweb.wordpress.com
10:19 homunq: no, they use the extra toolbar in SSBs
10:19 they never get to see python code
10:19 they can (or will be able to) add userscripts (greasemonkey), userstyles (custom css) and bookmarklets
10:19 there will be 'add script' buttons and such
10:19 homunq OK
10:20 bemasc (javascripts, css, and javascript, respectively)
10:20 lucian yes
10:20 it will for example allow a user to make a GMail activity without seeing python code or fumbling about with creating .xo files
10:20 and functionally, the activity will rival or surpass the existing GMail activity let's say
10:21 so for all this to happen, there are still some pieces that need to be solved
10:21 greasemonkey, javascript-dbus and global bookmarks (as opposed to the current session bookmarks)
10:22 javascript-dbus and global bookmarks i've looked into, it shouldn't be too hard
10:22 bemasc lucian: global bookmarks?
10:22 oh, you mean stored-in-an-SSB bookmarks.
10:22 lucian bemasc: not really, for Browse
10:22 bemasc: it's on the Browse roadmap for 0.86
10:22 bemasc disapproves.
10:23 lucian bemasc: i mean bookmarks not stored in the Journal session, but in the activity settings/preferences
10:23 homunq i have to agree with bemasc, though not authoritatively.
10:23 bemasc Yeah.  I think that's a bad idea, but it's not my decision.
10:23 Anyway, don't let me derail the meeting train.
10:23 lucian http://erikos.sweettimez.de/?p=678
10:24 bemasc: alright
10:24 for my project, i can just store bookmarks in the SSB itself
10:24 but i thought that since the functionality is due in 0.86, it would better to not reinvent it
10:25 walterbender lucian: I remain concerned about how a SSB will store other data in the Journal for access by non-browse activities...
10:25 homunq don't depend on future work by anyone.
10:25 walterbender lucian: a good set of examples would be helpful
10:25 lucian walterbender: like files you mean?
10:26 walterbender files or any data format... JSON
10:26 lucian walterbender: that's rather easy, SSBs will simply offer download links
10:26 walterbender lucian: a working example would be appreciated
10:26 bemasc lucian: and sometimes those "downloads" will actually be entirely on the local machine?
10:26 lucian walterbender: sure, i'll work on that
10:26 bemasc: yep
10:26 bemasc cool
10:26 homunq OK, sorry, we have to move on.
10:27 lucian bemasc: it's how google docs offline works for example
10:27 homunq #topic homunq silbe versions
10:27 link and report?
10:27 silbe #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/V[…]atastore/Progress
10:28 homunq I saw your benchmarks.
10:28 silbe i've been working on a benchmark to help choose a VCS backend
10:28 homunq Do you have conclusions yet?
10:29 silbe there has been further progress (the second run finished just a few minutes ago), still need some memory usage estimation
10:29 there are a few loosers but no clear winner
10:29 it's all about compromises
10:29 bemasc silbe: are you sure you want to use an existing VCS?
10:29 homunq what are your considerations besides speed? Do you care about python-ness?
10:29 silbe darcs is the fastest but also takes a huge amount of disk space for example
10:30 homunq sorry, I meant besides the benchmarkable...
10:30 silbe bemasc: not sure yet, but might be the fastest way to go forward
10:30 tomeu silbe: I was thinking we would start for something so simple that a vcs would be really overkill
10:30 bemasc silbe: I find this approach very surprising, mostly because these VCSs typically have their differential compression algorithms hardwired.
10:30 homunq I would ++ at least considering existing options. If you can have a format with existing tools outside sugar, that is worth a fair amount.
10:30 silbe a python module would be great, but for the first prototype invoking CLI tools would suffice
10:31 bemasc And they use line-based diff, which is useless for us.
10:31 homunq bemasc, that is a very good point.
10:31 (not useless, but it covers small fraction of our use cases)
10:32 tomeu what I thought we would be doing inside the scope of this gsoc is "just" tracking the place of an entry inside its version tree and, perhaps, doing delta compression
10:32 silbe actually the current benchmark results point toward inventing our own stuff, but i'd prefer encapsulating that in a module that can be easily replaced
10:32 homunq absolutely.
10:32 bemasc silbe: I'm all for a nice hard abstraction barrier, if you can make one. That would be really cool.
10:33 homunq Inventing own overall (package-ish) format != inventing own diff algorithm and format.
10:33 lucian about python-ness, mercurial can be used as a module afaik
10:33 silbe homunq: exactly
10:34 tomeu lucian: we have a prototype that did exactly that
10:34 lucian tomeu: oh
10:34 tomeu but had to implement its own scheme for delta compression anyway
10:34 because hg didn't had that
10:35 homunq OK. silbe, we have to continue this a bit after in #sugar.
10:36 silbe To summarize: I think doing our own backend will be best long term, but using an existing VCS in the meantime will allow me to come up with working code faster
10:36 abstraction => can switch backends later
10:36 homunq (side-note: I'm running the meeting because I don't know if others can #topic....)
10:37 silbe: OK. In that case, go with whatever is easiest, drop the benchmarks now.
10:37 They've told you what you need to know - homegrown is the long-term answer.
10:37 silbe ok
10:38 homunq #topic subzero BryanWB
10:38 subzero I'm still working with can & can't activity joining versions :S
10:39 homunq link?
10:39 subzero I have done the animated version and the everything else version, so now I'm having troubles joining both versions into one
10:39 about the problems: http://karmaproject.wordpress.[…]hat-little-beast/
10:39 the demo (need ff 3.5beta4+): http://karma.sugarlabs.org/can_cant/
10:40 the difficult part is the animation, I need to run js in parallel
10:40 Bryan and kbrosnan (#firefox) has directed me to web workers
10:41 BryanWB_ sorry, the Internet just died for last 10 mins in my apt
10:41 subzero BryanWB_: np
10:41 homunq BryanWB_: you just started. I'll pm you the log of this topic
10:41 subzero BryanWB_: I'm talkin homunq about the current problems with animation stuff
10:41 BryanWB_ tks
10:42 homunq web workers?
10:42 BryanWB_ homunq: threads in js ;)
10:43 subzero yep, for firefox
10:43 lucian talked me about WorkerPool (for chrome)
10:43 homunq so, this issue is inevitably browser-dependent? too bad.
10:44 BryanWB_ subzero: lucian: i thought web workers were a standard
10:44 lucian homunq: no, Gears has WorkerPool
10:44 BryanWB_: the WebWorkers are standard, but only lastest firefox&webkit have it
10:44 subzero lucian: my mistake, sorry
10:44 homunq that's what I meant, each browser has it's own thing, no abstraction layer on top which hides the differences.
10:44 BryanWB_ lucian: which is fine, since only the latest browsers support html5 anywars
10:44 lucian the WorkerPool in Gears is for older browsers
10:44 subzero yes, that's right
10:45 homunq oh
10:45 heh, oops
10:45 lucian so basically WebWorkers in HTML5, WorkerPool in Gears for legacy
10:46 subzero afaik
10:46 homunq ok. is it doing the right tricks for you?
10:46 BryanWB_ homunq: either chrome and mozilla will settle on a standard web worker api or js libraries like jQuery will build an abstraction that works across them
10:46 homunq "will" :(
10:46 subzero homunq: an approach, since it runs js in parallel but don't modify dom elements
10:46 homunq I guess you are on the bleeding edge.
10:47 subzero a little..
10:47 homunq only one thread can modify, the others can just look? OK, so sound is in the background, right?
10:48 BryanWB_: still here, right?
10:48 BryanWB_ is still here
10:48 subzero about sound, I think each thead can run its proper sound element
10:49 lucian subzero: from what usage of WebWorkers i've seen, people use them for processing data and just return things to the main thread
10:49 subzero: like John Resig
10:50 subzero lucian: yes, I've seen the same
10:50 what I think is to process the anited stuff in threads
10:50 homunq anited?
10:50 BryanWB_ subzero: and them start/stop them according to user input?
10:51 subzero s/anited/animated/
10:51 and the master will do the changes in the dom elements
10:52 that is what has happened to me...
10:53 homunq sounds a bit clumsy... you'll need some clever hacks, not clean solutions.
10:54 which makes doing your roadmap/planning especially hard
10:54 subzero I'm thinking how to get something better, the other solution is setTimeOut (js function)
10:54 homunq how can you address that?
10:55 can the main thread sleep on some flag that the other ones set?
10:55 BryanWB_ subzero: how does flash handle this kind of stuff? and can web workers do something similar?
10:55 homunq because if it's polling, that would kill you IMO
10:56 subzero homunq: about sleep the main thread, I think it's not possible...
10:56 mchua notes that marketing mtg is due to start soonish
10:56 subzero BryanWB_: it runs animation in parallel
10:56 BryanWB_ subzero: flash does?
10:57 homunq mchua: yes
10:57 #topic bemasc
10:57 assimd is not here
10:57 bemasc Hi all. Lots to report.
10:57 subzero BryanWB_: yes, that's why you can do a lot of actions whit that
10:57 homunq (I hope that we'll continue to chat after in #sugar)
10:57 link
10:57 subzero BryanWB_: I mean, multitouch
10:58 bemasc no link. You can see the git log I guess...
10:58 homunq You don't have to write much, but try to have some report to link here.
10:58 bemasc Last night, after midnight, I got a restructured version of my operational transformer working.
10:58 homunq oooh
10:59 what does that mean?
10:59 bemasc It passes my unit tests and shows a 60-fold speedup in my benchmark.
10:59 homunq wow
10:59 well, carry on then
10:59 bemasc SharedTextDemo-1 started to get slow after you'd typed a few lines.  Hopefully, this version should be fast enough for a whole essay.
10:59 homunq another 60 for next week :)
10:59 garycmartin bemasc: so we can look forward to seeing a faster 'sharedtextdemo' then?
11:00 bemasc garycmartin: hopefully by tomorrow.
11:00 Also, I found a bug in libdbus, and got them to patch it.  Once fixed, it will allow automatic persistence for all groupthink-using apps.
11:00 garycmartin bemasc: fab. (I'm very interested in using your backend to add colab to other activities)
11:00 bemasc So activity authors never have to think about the datastore; groupthink will handle serialization/deserialization for them (if they wish).
11:01 homunq yay! groupthink goes beyond groupthink, to rethink!
11:01 that is great news.
11:01 OK, I think we have to yield the room.
11:01 let's continue after-chat in #sugar.
11:01 bemasc yep
11:02 homunq any last-minute words?
11:02 5
11:02 4
11:02 3
11:02 2
11:02 1
11:02 #endmeeting
11:05 jt4sugar Nice work on boot sequence and banner!
11:05 SeanDaly Sebastian is in class I'd really rather he be here to talk about the SoaS release name, he will be available after 19h UTC, could we meet again later after this hour on other topics?
11:05 jt4sugar: I'm really happy with it
11:05 caroline good morning
11:06 SeanDaly Tomorrow i drop by the printer's to choose the roll-up style (entry level to save roros)
11:06 caroline I am available for the next 2 hours then out for 2 or 3 hours.
11:06 garycmartin caroline: hi
11:06 SeanDaly waves to caroline
11:06 caroline Are we tabling release name until Sdz can make it?
11:06 jt4sugar SeanDaly: as long as its 3:30pmET or after
11:07 mchua is around but quiet
11:07 SeanDaly needs to convert UTC to ET
11:07 Hi mchua
11:07 garycmartin SeanDaly: by 'release name' are we meaning 'release version number'?
11:07 SeanDaly: or will it have a name as well?
11:07 SeanDaly garycmartin: I'm giving the idea away already :-/
11:08 garycmartin waves to mchua
11:08 SeanDaly: You just seep marketing information!
11:08 SeanDaly jt4sugar: my converter says 19h UTC = 15h EDT so sometime in that hour OK?
11:09 seeping or sleeping?
11:09 usually better ideas after sleeping
11:09 Why don't I mention the idea then we can discuss it later
11:09 mchua SeanDaly, is there an agenda posted somewhere? http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/M[…]ing_Team/Meetings looks a mite dated. ;)
11:10 SeanDaly mchua: see marketing invitation
11:10 caroline 3pm?
11:10 I'll maybe a bit late. Probably 3:30pm I'll be home again.
11:10 SeanDaly caroline: 3pm or 3:30 thereabouts
11:11 mchua ah yes, http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-June/001393.html. thanks!
11:11 jt4sugar 20 utc sounds like it would be good
11:11 SeanDaly struggling to keep wiki updated
11:11 jt4sugar: should be possible
11:12 shall I expose idea, or move to next item?
11:12 garycmartin SeanDaly: go fo it!
11:12 SeanDaly The idea behind "beta-1" and "v1" for SoaS was to simplify our arcane numbering system
11:13 you know and I know that fedora 11 is under Sugar v0.84, but that's complicated to explain
11:13 SoaS releases will likely be on 6-month rythm related to Fedora
11:14 that menas we get up to v6 pretty quick, in only 3 years
11:14 s/menas/means
11:14 mchua (btw, caroline, jt4sugar, SeanDaly, others thinking of a later meeting: http://whenisgood.net/wZRM6R and http://whenisgood.net/wZRM6R/results/5XHrUZ. I won't be around this afternoon, so http://whenisgood.net/wZRM6R/edit/5XHrUZ for whoever picks up on organizing this - SeanDaly by default, I believe.)
11:15 SeanDaly We had bandied about idea of sugar logo in boot animation
11:15 likes whenisgood
11:15 And, our logo changes color
11:16 advantage of logo staying same color for a version=Learners, parents, teachers can identify it from boot color
11:16 Tomeu talked about flavors
11:16 garycmartin SeanDaly: +1
11:16 SeanDaly So, why not name SoaS versions as flavors, based on the boot logo color?
11:17 Example: v1 SoaS= "Sugar on a Stick - Strawberry"
11:17 v2 SoaS= "Green Apple"
11:17 caroline In the next 3 years we will likely have SoaS based on things other then Fedora adding more need for naming.
11:18 SeanDaly caroline: the name, like "v1", "v2", is meant to be independent of F11/v0.84, or F12/v0.86, or SuSE/v0,92 or whatever
11:18 caroline also an actual implementation will need a flavor of XS for sure and probably a flavor of VM support. Like creating an ice cream sunday :)
11:18 garycmartin SeanDaly: I sent a green start logo in the boot anim this time, "Sugar on a Stick - Gooseberry"? ;-)
11:18 SeanDaly caroline: I think the ice cream metaphor can really serve us
11:18 jt4sugar Strawberry Fedora-Strawberry Ubuntu etc. Version+distro
11:18 SeanDaly garycmartin: +1
11:19 jt4sugar: if SoaS doesn't boot into distro I would hesitate to put distro in
11:19 Distro is hidden from users for simplicity
11:19 But, of course can be mentioned in press
11:19 caroline this method gives us a lot of options for the future and I think we are not sure how the future will play out.
11:20 so options are a good thing.
11:20 SeanDaly although teachers, parents, Learners not likely to care
11:20 caroline: yes that's how II feel
11:20 Let's think about this & discuss later with Sebastian OK?
11:20 lots of other topics to be covered
11:21 OK re Gould grant / Gardner pilot
11:21 we need to define angle
11:21 Is angle "yay we got a grant"?
11:22 is angle "serious pilots work in school"?
11:23 caroline I liked egg head colleges bring the latest learning technologies back to the US
11:23 walterbender I like the angle that we are interested in making it work for learning, not just work
11:23 mchua suggests "grassroots movement of volunteers make serious pilot work in school"
11:23 SeanDaly caroline: I think that's a good way to demarcate Sugar Labs difference from OLPC - SL more universal orientation
11:24 mchua (since it seems like education is incredibly tied to "institutions are the only things that work for us!")
11:24 caroline I dont like the make it work angle when we haven't even started yet.
11:24 SeanDaly caroline: Gardner as public school means quotes have to be cleared with board of ed, right?
11:24 walterbender mchua: how about grant to pilot how grassroots deployments can make an impact
11:24 caroline mchua, I like that for the end of summer or midle of next fall.
11:24 mchua ooh, walterbender +1
11:24 SeanDaly I feel the grant has to be in there
11:24 caroline Sean, yes, we have to go through the burocracy.
11:24 SeanDaly Grants, funding are always good indicator that project is serious
11:25 mchua and then followup after we have success, like caroline mentioned
11:25 caroline yes, the grant has to be there.
11:25 SeanDaly caroline: are we concerned about the timeframe? how much?
11:25 We happen to be in the enviable position of bursting with news
11:25 caroline We will deal with however long it takes.
11:26 jt4sugar Angle should be to reach out to community for help? Community can replicate this opportunity by....
11:26 caroline This will help us get volutneers, bring the rest of harvard online etc. But we will get as far as we get this summer and then do the rest in the fall. In the long run what we do this summer vs fall is not that critical.
11:26 jt4, I feel like we need a success to replicate first.
11:27 SeanDaly any one of the following could generate a press release: SoaS version - GCompris integration - Dailymotion channel - One year old, grant & pilot arrive -
11:27 caroline Well the Grant + Pilot can pay its own press releease fees ;)
11:28 SeanDaly I myself am not too worried about finding contributors;
11:28 as visibility rises, pool of potential contributors will too
11:28 i am concerned about getting feedback from schools
11:29 GCompris can really help us with that I think.
11:29 caroline Saying that we are trying it in a school should be the best way to get others to try it.
11:29 SeanDaly caroline: +1
11:30 caroline Well we can control the GCompris press release. Should we write both, and figure it will take 2 weeks at least to get approval from BPS and put out the GCompris one first.
11:30 SeanDaly And, we need to "tell" that story - video students
11:30 caroline Sean, I think that is for the before Fall press release.
11:30 SeanDaly Ideally, I would like to do a press release soon mentioning NECC, FOSSED, LinuxTag
11:31 caroline let me step back, how many and how fast can we put them out? and what is our limiting factor?
11:31 SeanDaly then, at the end of the month, 1 or 2 releases datelined NECC/FOSSED/LinuxTag
11:31 caroline: GCompris could be whipped up in no time
11:31 Nexcopy partnership should be ready at end of month
11:31 caroline Sean, how many can we put out in June?
11:32 SeanDaly caroline: one soon, one or two others at end of month
11:32 depends what subjects are
11:32 jt4sugar The "Sugar Summer Tour"-Events first-Gcompris following events-Soas late summer
11:33 SeanDaly For example, "we are one year old" is not standalone PR, but will be mentioned in a release about something else
11:33 caroline Lets aim for first week of July for Pilot annoucement. But I think that means we need to write it this week.
11:33 SeanDaly jt4sugar: hola, a tour usually means we go around?
11:34 caroline Do the GCompris activities all work?
11:34 SeanDaly caroline: ok to start drafting Gould/Gardner PR this week
11:34 garycmartin caroline: I've not done any testing myself yet...
11:34 SeanDaly When ii saw those GCompris messages this morning I almost fell out of my chair with excitement
11:35 walterbender I've tested most of them... they work
11:35 caroline Sean, thanks. I think until its approved it is just wasting our time to try to plan when we release it. We have no control.
11:35 SeanDaly GCompris is very well known in Europe
11:35 walterbender but the Sugar integration is pretty minimal at this stage
11:35 SeanDaly caroline: not to worry, we have plenty of other news in the pipe
11:35 jt4sugar Events-Maybe "The Sugar Roadshow" is better
11:36 SeanDaly walterbender: surely true, but the important thing is that it demonstrates how FOSS educontent can be "sugarized" and even better over time
11:36 jt4sugar: I like the Sugar Roadshow (Sugar Rodeoshow?)
11:37 to continue re nexcopy,
11:37 They will set up a minisite, collect USB sticks
11:37 walterbender SeanDaly: another story is Sugar Labs Colombia
11:38 SeanDaly load Sugar onto them, and send them to us - recycling donated sticks!
11:38 walterbender: what can we tell about SL CO? haven't followed closely I'm afraid
11:39 walterbender the first local Sugar Lab
11:39 caroline We also have Tux Paint up on the Activities Portal.
11:39 walterbender doing deployments in Colombia
11:39 and orgaizing teachers and feedback to the community
11:39 SeanDaly walterbender: part of our PR should be about XO-1.5 refresh
11:40 F11/v0.84 similar to SoaS
11:40 caroline hmm ok so we have lots of news. How do we decide priority? Who do we need to convice of what right now?
11:40 SeanDaly caroline: buzz buzz buzz
11:40 Or, put another way
11:40 caroline by whom saying what?
11:41 SeanDaly attending the events will raise our visibility - some people bound to blog/twitter/photo
11:41 caroline What is most important right now? Journalist knowing we are alive? getting the message to techie teachers and parents? Attracting developers?
11:41 SeanDaly caroline: message stays on-strategy: SoaS first version, not classroom-ready but try-it-out ready
11:42 that is the main message; other messages are: Sugar is VERY alive & kicking
11:42 caroline by that criteria the Events news is more important then Gcompris and SL Columbia news. Right?
11:43 SeanDaly caroline: I don't really look at it that way
11:43 Journalists, bloggers can't tell in advance what is newsworthy
11:43 Main news is: SoaS is here for you to try
11:44 At events, we show it
11:44 in PR, we talk about it
11:44 What's in SoaS will be in XO-1.5 refresh
11:44 "the second million Learners"
11:44 caroline ok so based on that what order should we dish out our news?
11:45 SeanDaly caroline: next press release (for next week) which topic is not super-important
11:45 could be GCompris or another
11:45 But, it sets the stage for Event Week at the end of the month
11:46 jt4sugar caroline: I think we need the all of the above strategy-each press release should ask University Computer Science programs and Education schools to contact us
11:46 SeanDaly And, during that week we announce SoaS first release version, nad hopefully grant+pilot
11:46 sdziallas waves :)
11:46 SeanDaly jt4sugar: +1
11:46 hi sdziallas!
11:46 jt4sugar First should be event release saying were looking for developers others to test drive Soas
11:46 caroline Sean, what is the limiting factor for press releases. Is it money? Is it timing, ie you just don't put out more then one a week or people ignore you...
11:47 SeanDaly jt4sugar: actually i would like to target "technically adept teachers"
11:47 caroline: :D money plays a role, but $200 for 3 categories is affordable
11:47 mchua technically adept? or technically adventurous? (Though the two overlap quite a bit.)
11:47 jt4sugar A line or two about both should cover both camps
11:48 SeanDaly If no news, silly to publish
11:48 But, if lots of news, cascade builds buzz
11:48 If we keep pounding differentiators,
11:48 caroline right now no news is not our problem :)
11:48 mchua (on that note, whatever PR we come out with for this should totally be taken to NECC.)
11:49 SeanDaly mchua: yes exactly in fact PR should be datelined berlin,
11:49 caroline So in your idea world it sounds like we put one out week of June 15th, then June 22nd, then after July 8th?
11:49 SeanDaly and/or DC, and/or maine
11:49 caroline: yes july 8th could set us up for Walter's keynote
11:50 caroline Can we do 5 press releases between now and July 12th? or is that rediculuous?
11:50 SeanDaly June very active, normal if July/Aug less active, then Sept. very active again
11:50 caroline: not ridiculous, if "news" in each one
11:50 garycmartin thinks walterbender should switch his phone to silent ring this time ;-)
11:50 jt4sugar Event release should ask for Developers and Tech adept teachers to test drive Soas and to help sugarize GCompris and ITalc to create realtime feedback loop for teachers and classroom
11:51 SeanDaly jt4sugar: agree totally
11:51 the cumulative effect of releases is brand building, keepàing us in the news
11:52 jt4sugar SeanDaly: Follow on realeases should target Soas push for fall
11:52 caroline ok so I count 4 stories:
11:52 SeanDaly jt4sugar: yes exactly
11:52 caroline - Sugar Labs Columbia
11:52 - Open Source programs on Activities Portal - GCompris and Tux Paint
11:52 - Events Week and Release
11:52 - Gould Grant and GPA Pilot
11:52 is that right?
11:52 SeanDaly but, we should decide if fall push is on SoaS infrastructure, or next release
11:53 How much can we say about SL Columbia?
11:53 mchua ...wow, that's awesome. next time gregdek and i talk with brand folks I'll see if we can get any RH press goodness around all this (with the "RH <3 education!" and the "Fedora helps!" angle, or something.)
11:53 SeanDaly mchua: would be very helpful!
11:54 caroline: Nexcopy too!
11:54 mchua How much is SL Columbia saying about itself? Admittedly, I haven't been stellar about keeping up, but I think I could stand to hear more updates from them too.
11:54 SeanDaly caroline: often, the trick is not to space out PR, but
11:54 to set the stage, then wallop 'em with 2-3 in a row
11:55 caroline - Walter gives Keynote in Canary Islands and in Maine - Is that a separate release or part of Events Week?
11:55 SeanDaly part of events week (week after I think? need to update wiki cal)
11:55 jt4sugar SeanDaly: A add on paragraph in each release highlighting a local lab would be a great feature-Colombia first-DC second, etc
11:56 SeanDaly jt4sugar: yes, that's exactly how I see it
11:56 sdziallas runs to grab some food and is back in 5 minutes for more discussion ;)
11:56 SeanDaly Fits in with Sugar v0.84 on XO-1.5 refresh
11:56 For example, June 24th could be Nexcopy!
11:56 June 25th, GCompris!
11:56 caroline Ok, so based on all of this what is your instinct about when we should release the PRs and what should e in them?
11:56 SeanDaly June 26th, SoaS!
11:57 one is datelined Cambridge, the other Wash DC, the other berlin - shows we are "everywhere"
11:57 caroline Cool
11:58 ok so you thnk we should release as many as we can in a short period of time?
11:58 SeanDaly Note: eReleases/PR newswire, but we won't want to send 3 PR's in 3 days to the mailing list
11:58 caroline: it's always a case-by-case thing, also
11:58 caroline We can hopefully add the GPA pilot and grant into the series if you want and the stars are with us.
11:58 jt4sugar SeanDaly: Might want to think about a link in press release to a Newsletter type page that can go into depth on each aspect mentioned-layered approach
11:59 sdziallas also notes that he can have additionally a SoaS on XO-1 image ready in time.
11:59 SeanDaly jt4sugar: I hesitate to take on further docs, we still have the PDF brochure and "Try Sugar" to get ready ASAP
12:00 sdziallas: great! will have some XOs with me at LinuxTag
12:00 caroline: the "art" of buzz is very, very difficult
12:00 sdziallas SeanDaly: cool! I'll bring mine, too ;)
12:00 bbiab
12:00 walterbender sdziallas: did you see Tomeu's reply to the person who asked about installing SoaS images onto their laptop?
12:00 SeanDaly "blooming" with news in Events Week is designed to push journalists into noticing us
12:01 caroline sounds great
12:01 SeanDaly All the news is good: we recycle sticks for schools with Nexcopy, we have first official version of SoaS,
12:02 we got a grant and are doing pilot, have opened a Dailymotion channel,
12:02 caroline We have our first grant, our first local lab,
12:02 When in DC Lab going to be press ready?
12:02 SeanDaly GCompris activities become Sugar Activities,
12:03 caroline: come again?
12:03 caroline There is a DC Sugar Labs in the making I believe
12:03 when that becomes "official" we may want to release on that too.
12:04 If we can get it into the local news it may reach soome of the people who work for Dept. of Ed and other relevant governmental types.
12:04 SeanDaly caroline: yes indeed and if you remember OLPC France is discussing starting one too
12:04 caroline Not sure what being official looks like.
12:04 SeanDaly although some members felt that would be "turning their backs on OLPC and the XO"
12:04 caroline We also have the "High School Students make a Difference" story. Which again has the potential to hit DC news papers.
12:05 SeanDaly still some communication to do... my mantra is: Sugar success good for OLPC, OLPC success good for Sugar
12:05 caroline: yes and there was that intermediate school to video? if they are still around this summer?
12:05 walterbender I tried to be very positive about OLPC in my interview yesterday :)
12:06 caroline Sean, I think that will happen but I would plan on having it done in August.
12:06 who were you interviewed by yesteray?
12:06 SeanDaly not worrying about walterbender being positive about OLPC
12:06 walterbender SeanDaly: the LWN article should come out tomorrow
12:06 SeanDaly: well, they lost their way for a while
12:06 SeanDaly walterbender: is sub-only though I think?
12:07 walterbender: they still have serious image problems which need to be overcome;
12:07 walterbender SeanDaly: yes, but subscribers can post individual articles publically
12:07 SeanDaly XO-1.5 refresh will do wonders to change OLPC's image since quashes the myths
12:07 jt4sugar walterbender: Thats why their good friend Sugar is around to get them sailing in the right direction
12:07 SeanDaly New Sugar version is at heart of XO-1.5 refresh
12:08 walterbender SeanDaly: and I think that we'll hear next week that Linux is in the 2.0 plans as well
12:08 SeanDaly caroline: the concept is, we are fishing
12:08 walterbender (since it is ARM-based)
12:08 SeanDaly our "bait" is juicy bits of news
12:09 we can't know in advance what will interest journalists/bloggers
12:09 But we can be sure SoaS is high up on the list
12:09 And, when a journalist/blogger (i could also say community leader or funder)
12:10 hits our press page and our site, they see right away that there is lots of advancement & activity
12:10 caroline Sean, also we need a bunch of different sorts of people to pay attention so we need to spread out lots of different types of bait.
12:10 SeanDaly taken all together, it encourages buzz
12:10 isforinsects walterbender: you better connects re XO-2 than I do.
12:11 SeanDaly caroline: in terms of targeting, we have specific messages to reach technically adept teachers
12:11 isforinsects Oh right, the arm conference is next week.
12:11 SeanDaly But, a great many observers are watching occasional news about us and so far we are building without missteps
12:12 controversies are much more newsworthy i'm afraid, but
12:12 raising visibility also increases ease of recuiting contributors, funders, partners, distros and soon I hope OEMs
12:13 Here's something: you may have seen all the buzz coming out of Taipei last week
12:13 there was news every day of interest to us
12:13 sdziallas walterbender: nope? on the ML or IRC?
12:13 SeanDaly: I'm back.
12:13 SeanDaly For example, MS OEM chief tried to rename "netbook"
12:13 caroline I thought there were a number of good points in the Myth vs Reality article. Includng that Initial Buzz gets you in the door but hard solid continued effort is needed to get you in the schools. We want to get in the schools.
12:14 SeanDaly ok sdziallas :-)
12:14 garycmartin sdziallas: it was ML, about using anaconda to try and install Soas (untested)
12:14 SeanDaly renaming "netbook" widely ridiculed in the press
12:14 sdziallas garycmartin: ah, didn't see that... well, anaconda... not sure about it ;)
12:14 SeanDaly For sure, SiaS runs on "netbook" :D :D
12:15 caroline: without a doubt, we need to deliver the goods
12:15 that means not only the stick,
12:15 garycmartin sdziallas: just having a go on an XO and Soas now. First issue is anaconda is not on Soas so I'm just yum installing it...
12:15 SeanDaly but reliable means to create/clone one,
12:15 documentation,
12:15 alternatives (virtualization), and so on
12:15 sdziallas garycmartin: for SoaS on the XO(-1), I'm going to have a special solution ready in a few days :)
12:16 garymartin: maybe even today, depends on how far I get.
12:16 garycmartin: btw, great work with the sample content for the journal!!
12:16 SeanDaly in fact, we need to keep in the back of our minds how to regenerate buzz in the fall
12:16 Release of XO-1.5 refresh could be very helpful with that
12:17 walterbender sdziallas: email... I'll forward the thread
12:17 garycmartin sdziallas: cool, and thanks, glad you liked.
12:17 caroline We should have video of kids and SoaS in the fall.
12:17 sdziallas walterbender: okay, thanks! :) (I'm a bit behind my e-mail...)
12:17 SeanDaly sdziallas: can we talk a little about release name?
12:18 sdziallas SeanDaly: sure!
12:19 SeanDaly you may remember my goal in establishing a "v1" was to have a super-simple numbering system everyone understands... "F11/v0.84" complicated for teachers
12:19 sdziallas nods
12:20 SeanDaly at the same time, if code is ready, even if infrastructure is not, now is indeed the right time to generate buzz during events week (NECC / LinuxTag / FOSSED)
12:20 we had the idea to associate a Sugar logo color to a SoaS version; will help
12:20 sdziallas nods again
12:20 SeanDaly learners, teachers, parents identify version
12:21 Tomeu brought up "flavors"
12:21 I think is brilliant idea
12:21 sdziallas this idea gets a big +1 from me :) it's easy to realize and really good for identification.
12:21 SeanDaly extends "Sugar on a Stick" imagery
12:21 For example, June release could be "Sugar on a Stick- Strawberry"
12:22 next release "green Apple", or "Gooseberry"
12:22 caroline June is a good month for stawberries :)
12:22 sdziallas Yay, codenames! :)
12:22 feels like SoaS is getting mature (most big distros have codenames, right?)
12:22 walterbender June is a good month for Bratwurst!!
12:22 SeanDaly If we keep names simple flavors kids know, I think we will have something great
12:22 mtd SeanDaly: we're still going to call them "version", right?  "flavor" has no concept of an order, but "version"/"release" does.
12:22 sdziallas walterbender: LOL!
12:23 mtd mmm, bratwurst.
12:23 SeanDaly mtd: yes indeed, and that info will be there, but will not be the main thrust of the marketing
12:23 sdziallas walterbender: if you were coming to Germany, I'd get you a good Bratwurst :)
12:24 SeanDaly worried we will have onion crisp ice cream flavor
12:24 Call me silly, but initial releases could be fruits from top-ten ice-cream flavors
12:25 mtd SeanDaly: let me clarify: "new SoaS version: Strawberry" seems a good combination of cute + clarity; "new SoaS flavor: Gooseberry" does not imply that Gooseberry is an improvement upon Strawberry.
12:26 SeanDaly mtd: yes I understand you but keep in mind if we are on 6-month cycle,
12:26 mtd SeanDaly: sorry, let me not distract with this pedantry.
12:26 SeanDaly: it's a very minor point.
12:26 SeanDaly in only three yyears we will be up to v6
12:26 mtd: it's a valid point
12:27 some name codewords alpha sort, but hard :-)
12:27 I like fruits as flavors because 1) wholesome 2) natural 3) contain... Sugar!
12:28 Now, matching flavors to the 12 official logo variants may not be easy, but
12:28 we can sort that out
12:29 erikos SeanDaly, is this marketing meeting?
12:29 SeanDaly erikos: hi yes but i think we're through unless anything else?
12:29 erikos SeanDaly, did you cover Linuxtag?
12:30 SeanDaly sdziallas: OK for SoaS v1 with a flavor name?
12:30 garycmartin One-Strawberry, Two-Gooseberries, Three-..., "and a partridge in a pear tree."
12:30 SeanDaly erikos: yes discussed press releases we have lots of news
12:30 sdziallas SeanDaly: +1 :)
12:30 SeanDaly I rather like strawberry as a first one, but i don't think we have a logo that color
12:30 mtd SeanDaly: I understand tomeu's point to be that the colours had names, so the order of the colours would determine the version names, and we'd have no more debates about what they were besides choosing an order to the colours.  Now you seem to be re-opening that "What do we call the versions" to significant interpretation.
12:31 SeanDaly Not a big issue as long as first name is simple
12:31 erikos SeanDaly, and about the banner, flyers, poster, tshirts, sticks etc
12:31 SeanDaly mtd: actually I wouldn't want compound names like Tomeu said... need to be concise... if kids can think up flavor, it's simple enough
12:31 garycmartin SeanDaly: red + red logo works well for Strawberry.
12:31 erikos SeanDaly, has this been discussed already (maybe in mailing list as well)
12:32 SeanDaly garycmartin: do we have one like that? can't visualize
12:32 mtd now we seem to beback again, except we've decided that the names should be flavours that are also colours.
12:32 erikos SeanDaly, sorry if I am a bit late on this :/
12:32 hey garycmartin
12:32 SeanDaly mtd: idea is color related to version
12:32 erikos: i have ordered booth banner and tomorrow will decide if i should get 2
12:32 mtd a double-barrrelled name is not a killer - c.f. "Snow Leopard"
12:33 erikos SeanDaly, excellent!
12:33 mtd but yeah of course it could be truncated
12:33 SeanDaly mts: yes, but was preceded by six big one-named cats
12:33 garycmartin SeanDaly: red + res, yes it's official :-) it's logo v06
12:33 SeanDaly in any case I prefer arguing about colors/flavors than numbers :D
12:33 garycmartin waves to erikos!
12:34 SeanDaly Can we go with logo 06 "Strawberry" for this release?
12:34 we can disagree all summer over the next one (joke)
12:34 erikos: I want to order swag from spreadshirt
12:34 caroline If I add the BroadCom drivers to create an iso for GPA does it become STrawberry-Rubarb?
12:34 SeanDaly isforinsects: I think you said you could talk to them?
12:35 caroline: not sure I want to go there
12:35 caroline ;)
12:35 sorry, I like to cause trouble
12:35 SeanDaly no kids I know like Rhubarb, they consider it a grownup plot to deprive them of tastu ice cream
12:35 mtd SeanDaly: I'm not sure how much cleaer I can say it: tomeu's point was there needn't be discussion.  Just pick an order and the names are determined.  No arguing necessary.  Or even discussion.
12:35 SeanDaly s/tastu/tasty
12:35 caroline well it  has that yucky not quite free drivers in it
12:35 mtd strawberry +1
12:36 SeanDaly caroline: we're going to reinvent an industry
12:36 erikos liked Rhubarb as a kid
12:36 caroline strawberry +1
12:36 einvent an industry +1
12:36 +r
12:36 SeanDaly erikos: me too wasn't very often
12:36 sdziallas strawberry +1 from me, too ;)
12:36 mtd SeanDaly: why don't you just pick a random order and colour/flavour names and we're done :)
12:36 erikos SeanDaly, ;)
12:37 caroline I think something seasonal is good.
12:37 SeanDaly caroline: winter in Southern Hemisphere
12:37 garycmartin will send sdziallas openeing red logo frames for boot anim (progress bar version?)
12:37 mtd caroline: don't go imposing your northern seasons on people :)
12:37 caroline when we release in the winter in the north we choose southern fruits like Kiwi
12:37 SeanDaly caroline: I lived in Russia and Russians prefer ice cream in October not August
12:38 mtd s/your/our/
12:38 sdziallas garycmartin: re boot screen - everything worked just fine! :) thanks a lot... so yeah, would be cool! (progress bar is my favorite, too, not sure what others think)
12:38 SeanDaly sdziallas: I'm sorry to say i'm agnostic since I preferred my little color wheel :D
12:39 sdziallas SeanDaly: that's fine :) different opinions are allowed here, right? ;)
12:39 SeanDaly anyone prefer progress bar, or ring o' dots for boot anim?
12:40 caroline Where can I see the progress bar?
12:40 SeanDaly advantage of ring is, closer to XO experience
12:40 sdziallas hints at: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/M[…]ng_Team/Boot_Logo
12:40 SeanDaly http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/M[…]Animation_of_Eben.27s_Above_Design
12:41 caroline I like the ring of colored dots
12:41 SeanDaly What I'd really like is for Sugar logo to be on XO-1.5 refresh boot, but
12:41 who could II speak with about that?
12:42 related topic was, school logo / distro logo placed in About My Computer page with copyright & license
12:43 isforinsects maybe a fedora remix logo on the right, and a sugarlabs logo on the bottom left?
12:43 cjb I'd like to see a new animation design for 1.5, but I dunno if it'll happen
12:44 we'll have plymouth, which means we can do full algorithmic animation
12:44 not just sequences of images
12:44 SeanDaly isforinsects: we thought about that in the boot anim mega-thread, but prefer the "unity" of Sugar logo in the middle preceding Xo
12:45 I myself don't like the fedora logo in the corner, not because it's Fedora but because I find it distracting even small & grey... would have preferred in center, and consecutive
12:45 cjb: could you briefly explaiin algorithmic anim ?
12:46 cjb SeanDaly: it means you write a program to do the bootanim
12:46 rather than supplying a sequence of images
12:46 here, there's an example on youtube
12:46 SeanDaly cjb: we were wondering about that
12:46 I guess advantage is to save space? or to link to boot sequence events, or both?
12:47 cjb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G27F2hBbTTs
12:47 no, the advantage is that it looks better.
12:47 SeanDaly watching YouTube
12:48 that's cool I had read about that on the plymouth list, but hadn't seen it
12:48 caroline oh no! The planet is going to explode!
12:49 SeanDaly For my part, simple & fast is best, combats negative perception of OLPC/Sugar as "slow"
12:49 caroline <-- Watched the Star Trek movie this weekend :)
12:49 SeanDaly OK shall I wrap up meeting?
12:50 I guess we don't need to get together again later
12:50 sdziallas wonders what decision has been made regarding the boot screen
12:50 SeanDaly sdziallas: you're right, I'm being too agnostic :-)
12:51 I favor ring, myself
12:51 sdziallas which one now? the one with colors? ;)
12:51 is continuously getting confused.
12:51 SeanDaly whatever Gary sent you... which was in line with Eben/Christian recommendations
12:52 I believe Eben wanted bar and Christian was for either
12:53 sdziallas is also interested in knowing if we're legally okay with using the XO logo
12:53 SeanDaly Shall I throw out a vote message on the lists, response by tomorrow? i'm not sure anyone feels very strongly for one over the other
12:53 garycmartin has his tinfoil hat on so thinks he is safe from boot anim toxic fallout.
12:53 caroline Can we get the vote down to two or three specific choses?
12:54 SeanDaly caroline: two choices, progress bar or grey-dot ring
12:55 garycmartin: dots were gery , right?
12:55 garycmartin SeanDaly: both were all grey, only colour in each was the logo at start.
12:56 SeanDaly I like ring because: iconic, similar to OLPC
12:56 would like to find a tinfoil hat
12:57 OK I propose to submit the two to a vote on the lists
12:57 Gary, are these final two variants both on the wiki page?
12:58 garycmartin SeanDaly: yep
12:59 SeanDaly garycmartin: Ring is this one right?: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/M[…]Boot_With_Overlap
13:00 needs to leave very soon
13:01 ok counting down going once
13:01 garycmartin SeanDaly: yep that's the ring version.
13:01 SeanDaly garycmartin: ok thanks
13:02 going twice
13:02 #endmeeting

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