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#sugar-meeting, 2009-06-02

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
10:02 homunq_ First off, roll call, who's here?
10:02 mchua is here
10:03 homunq_ welcome to mchua, and it's great that you're doing better. yay.
10:03 assimd is also here
10:03 iwikiwi team print, but only the student is here
10:03 bemasc is here.  Not only is mchua doing better, she has a job and stuff!
10:03 mchua you folks will be hearing from me on the mailing list about getting local Sugar pilots near you so you can actually see kids use the stuff you're building. Stay tuned. ;)
10:04 homunq_ assimd, walterbender, lucian1900, you're here too?
10:04 SeanDaly Hi mchua!
10:04 iwikiwi hehe, nice mchua
10:04 assimd homunq_: I am
10:05 homunq_ bryanwb last seen 2 hours ago on #sugar...
10:05 and silbe not here. grrr.... that boy has no excuse.
10:06 OK. Personally, my first order of business was to re-emphasize the importance of these meetings.
10:06 iwikiwi subzero and bryan were discussing earlier in the morning, your night i guess
10:06 tomeu here!
10:07 homunq_ I know that it's always a little silly, because the ones that need to hear it most are absent
10:07 sdziallas is here, too
10:08 BryanWB sorry i am late
10:08 homunq_ but GSoC is supposed to be a full-time job for students and a serious commitment for mentors too. We really should be here for the meetings. I have missed some myself and I apologize, but now that we're really in session, we should be here
10:08 heh, welcome BryanWB and subzero
10:08 was just doing a mini-scold, which is done now.
10:09 subzero homunq: hi
10:09 homunq_ OK. Let's get updates.
10:09 #topic groupthink bemasc assimd
10:10 bemasc, you first
10:10 subzero BryanWB: sorry, I'm reading your last email
10:10 bemasc My thing is working. You can try it.
10:11 iwikiwi bemasc++
10:11 homunq_ I don't want to get too distracted by this issue, but is there a quick explanation of what you see the relationship to google wave?
10:11 assimd bemasc: : hi, I was just downloading you xo package.
10:11 bemasc It's frustrating that Google has come out with a fairly direct competitor right as my stuff is finally ready.
10:11 bernie tomeu: /me goes check the backups
10:11 tomeu bemasc: I don't think it makes your solution any less deployable, for now
10:11 homunq_ is the part of google wave that competes, open-source?
10:11 tomeu or for the next few years
10:11 mchua will be quiet for a few min, typing break
10:12 bemasc So... Wave is meant to be basically a multi-server version of Gobby.
10:12 The the algorithm is client-server from the clients' perspective, but it's a distributed asynchronous system from the servers' perspective.
10:12 Everyone could run a server, but that's not the use case they're optimizing for.
10:13 Groupthink has been set up the other way.
10:13 The other difference is the algorithm itself.  They're using a classic Operational Transformation setup.  I haven't read through it in detail, but I think it's probably one of the standard algorithms like adOPTed.
10:14 My system uses a crazy homebrew algorithm that works quite differently internally, though the results are probably equivalent.
10:14 Anyway, my API has a number of layers, and eventually it might be possible to switch in Wave behind the top layer without activity authors noticing.
10:15 homunq_: They've said that they are going to release source code soon.  Code for what, exactly, I'm not sure.
10:15 homunq_ OK. Good enough for me.
10:16 how about the mentor-student relationship between you two?
10:16 (which is atypical and that's OK. but is it healthy?)
10:16 assimd homunq_: we had a discussion once.
10:17 and his is algorithm is great
10:17 iwikiwi was part of the algo explanation as well
10:18 bemasc I think we've pretty much found our happy place.
10:18 homunq_ I guess the bottom line is, are you both clear about what would lead to the project failing, or otherwise not living up to its reasonable potential, so you can avoid that?
10:18 assimd bemasc: It was a nice discussion that day.
10:20 homunq_ as long as there's some explicit understanding of how the evaluation will work, that's not just "of course you pass because you're awesome", then you're cool.
10:20 I mean, not that that's not true :)
10:21 bemasc I don't think this is something we can resolve right now, but maybe assimd and I can test out SharedTextDemo a little later and see if it actually works.
10:21 homunq_ OK
10:21 assimd homunq_: I would be testing his demo right now. and provide him with feedback.
10:22 homunq_ OK. I suggest you have a short conversation that's a little more meta
10:22 and next.
10:22 #topic karma subzero BryanWB
10:22 subzero I have almost completed "can and can't" activity, the sound part is troublesome
10:23 now, I'm focusing in "quadrilaterals" activity
10:23 yesterday BryanWB and me discussed about name conventions.. our decision is the linux way
10:23 BryanWB ... file-naming conventions
10:23 homunq_ subzero: did you see the thread on canvas and rescaling?
10:23 BryanWB homunq_: i didn't, when did it take place? on sugar-devel?
10:23 subzero homunq: about dpi in browse
10:24 homunq_ yeah
10:24 subzero BryanWB: yes, sugar-devel
10:24 homunq_ (to both)
10:24 iwikiwi slibe! yo!
10:24 silbe sorry to be late...
10:24 subzero homunq: afaik, setting dpi= 96 is a useful patch
10:25 tomeu BryanWB: would be good to check where we stand with 0.84 (FF 3.5)
10:25 BryanWB tomeu: u mean test FF 3.5 on 0.84?
10:25 homunq_ subzero: well, since you are targeting existing sugar somewhat, I think you should use the workaround
10:26 subzero tomeu: well, html5 <sound> , <video> works with ff3.5 beta 4 +
10:26 tomeu was referring to the scaling thing
10:27 also there's a new cairo, etc
10:27 BryanWB tomeu: i need to read up on the issue as i don't understand it
10:27 caroline was anyone looking for me?
10:27 homunq_ caroline: not to my knowledge. If anyone was, can you pm her?
10:27 subzero BryanWB: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]9-May/014321.html
10:27 BryanWB subzero: tks
10:28 tomeu BryanWB: I also haven't fully grasped it, as in his opinion there's no action item for us
10:28 homunq_ OK. Sounds as if you two are good. subzero, link for your latest update?
10:29 subzero homunq_: so sorry, I haven't uploaded... I don't have my computer
10:29 homunq_ forgot to ask bemasc for that, because I saw it, but please bemasc too post your link
10:29 subzero homunq_: BryanWB has told me to upload any any change...
10:29 bemasc http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-June/014795.html
10:30 homunq_ subzero: I meant a narrative update somewhere on the web (wiki, blog, ml link, whatever)
10:31 subzero homunq_: since I haven't finished,  I haven't posted anything
10:31 homunq_ so, subzero, just do a quick writeup of where you are - 4-5 sentences is plenty - and put it somewhere. You should have one of those every week, even if it's 6 days old.
10:32 BryanWB homunq_: great idea
10:32 homunq_ subzero: you should post updates even if the content is "since I haven't finished,  I haven't posted anything"
10:32 well, not exactly, but you get the picture
10:32 OK. next
10:32 BryanWB homunq_: 1 sec
10:32 subzero homunq_: ok
10:32 homunq_ #topic versions silbe homunq_
10:32 BryanWB homunq_: subzero and I have our mentor/mentee meeteing on #sugar
10:33 homunq_: b/c we want others overhear our work.
10:33 homunq_ yes, that's good
10:33 sorry nix that topic, I am with you BryanWB
10:33 BryanWB homunq_: if #sugar is very busy should we move to another channel or just wait until someone complains?
10:34 homunq_ BryanWB: I think you can play that by ear
10:34 BryanWB ok
10:34 homunq_ if nobody's bothered by talking across another conversation, then no harm no foul.
10:35 tomeu I think #sugar is cool if we stay on topic
10:35 homunq_ BryanWB: that it?
10:35 hmm...
10:35 I'm moving on.
10:36 silbe, we're up.
10:36 One thing I should tell you silbe is that I spoke briefly at the start of meeting about the importance of the meeting. I've been bad about it too but we should try to be punctual.
10:37 so, over to you, what's your status, and do you have a link for it?
10:37 silbe homunq_: understood. should be better next time.
10:38 i've had looks at the current data store and the old effort at adding version support that tomeu showed me on SugarCamp
10:38 (in the process of adding wiki entries for my progress, links will be in there)
10:39 homunq_ Next week, please have that done before the meeting.
10:39 silbe the minimal API change done last time looks exactly like what I had in mind
10:39 homunq_ cool
10:39 was there any UI work done on top of that API?
10:40 silbe so i'm slowly, but steadily getting into the topic
10:40 homunq_: not that i know of
10:40 homunq_ OK.
10:40 silbe but i think the mockups i've done should be the way to go for now
10:40 homunq_ tomeu: can you talk about the context when that API was made for a sec?
10:42 silbe i'll need to enhance find() in order to retrieve all versions / versions on the same branch of a given entry, but that's the plan anyway
10:42 tomeu reads
10:43 ok, so we didn't needed many changes to add version support to the journal (UI)
10:43 just query as always and display all the results, as before
10:44 we added a version list to the detail view, was just a simple query with a special parameter that meant that we want to get all the versions for that object_id
10:44 homunq_ OK, so there was a simple UI.
10:44 tomeu so most of the changes happened in the implementation of the same old API
10:44 yeah, and that's the UI we currently want, AFAIK
10:44 silbe tomeu: oh, so you had UI too? is that code still around?
10:45 tomeu silbe: I think it may be around somewhere, but as I said, it was really minimal
10:45 silbe tomeu: might still be useful
10:45 homunq_ this conversation is vital, but we have to move on. silbe and tomeu, can you continue on #sugar at the next topic?
10:45 tomeu silbe: basically, when I do a normal query such like the one used to populate the list view, I only get the tips of the branches
10:45 ok
10:45 silbe ok
10:47 homunq_ silbe: I'd like to see more from you than "I've been looking at stuff". Try to find some simple and noncontroversial aspect where you can spend a few hours every week actually coding, even if your main focus that week is exploring.
10:48 That could be something like some really naive time trials for backends or whatever, it doesn't have to be code you expect to actually have in the final version.
10:48 OK?
10:48 silbe ok, will try to
10:49 homunq_ cool
10:49 #topic webified lucian1900 walterbender
10:49 student first: link then update
10:50 lucian1900?
10:51 iwikiwi_ heavy winds outside,  power might go on and off any time
10:53 homunq_ hmmm... walterbender?
10:54 hmm
10:54 iwikiwi_ did i miss anything directed at me?
10:55 mchua iwikiwi_: no, you're good
10:55 iwikiwi_ ah okay, mchua
10:55 homunq_ OK. nope
10:55 but somehow lucian1900 and walterbender are not responding where I can see it
10:55 iwikiwi_: so you're on.
10:56 Link, then update. Too bad aa's not here.
10:57 iwikiwi_ homunq_: no blogged stuff this week, but theres a summary of what i intended to do a  week back,  which I had implemented this week,. Mostly this week was a waste of code.
10:57 http://materiliazingsweetness.wordpress.com/
10:58 err
10:58 https://materializingsweetness.wordpress.com/
11:00 homunq_: I finished with the fork of read reading every sugar supported mime, and then aa had said we need to wait till we talk to the design team about the ui
11:00 so decided to step into moodle, and had mailed on the mls about a possible approach
11:00 walterbender homunq_: sorry. I have been forced to be multitasking throughout the meeting... :(
11:00 iwikiwi_ and mailed Martin L personally, he hadnt responded in a long while
11:01 so I had started working on an assignment plugin which considered only pdfs and showed them as thumbnails
11:01 but martin said thats a bad approach later on
11:01 homunq_ notes that our time is soon up.
11:01 iwikiwi_ today aa and I got to fixing a few bugs in the print(the fork of read, lets call it that) activity
11:02 code is on git
11:02 homunq_ OK. sounds as if things are coming along.
11:02 Dead ends are unavoidable, of course.
11:02 SeanDaly Hi GSoC people, do you think you will be done soon?
11:02 iwikiwi_ homunq_: : actually, im kinda getting lost with the design issue
11:03 homunq_ SeanDaly: yeah, soon.
11:03 OK, I'll talk to you in a minute in #sugar
11:03 GSoC'ers, any final announcements?
11:04 iwikiwi_ homunq_: okay, thanks
11:04 homunq_ #topic last words, meeting ends in a minute
11:05 OK.
11:05 #endmeeting
11:06 SeanDaly Not sure if Caroline can make it today
11:06 christianV ok
11:07 sdziallas waves
11:07 SeanDaly jt4sugar, did you have a chance to see my proposed agenda?
11:07 hi sdziallas
11:07 garycmartin waves too
11:07 jt4sugar SeanDaly: Yes
11:07 SeanDaly I wish I knew how to wave :-/
11:07 hi garycmartin yo uknow how to wave too :-)
11:07 garycmartin "/me blah blah blah"
11:07 SeanDaly like this?
11:08 sdziallas SeanDaly: hey ;) I thought I might be interested in the boot screen discussion...
11:08 nods
11:08 garycmartin puts thumbs up!
11:08 SeanDaly sdziallas: yes thanks for being here
11:08 I guess everyone had a chance to see my mockups?
11:08 garycmartin SeanDaly: yep
11:09 SeanDaly I (of course) like my mockups, but
11:09 I'd like to know if others like them too :D
11:09 also,
11:09 sdziallas: what kind of time constraint are we under? not sure about deadline
11:10 christianV <SeanDaly> i've got one hour
11:10 oups
11:10 lol
11:10 SeanDaly christianV: sorry I'm ambiguous me too I have 1 hour but I meant for the boot animation
11:10 sdziallas SeanDaly: of course as soon as possible ;)... well, seriously: June 10 is feature freeze, but we can add it a day or two later, too.
11:11 SeanDaly: but if I could get some early .png files to include in the next snapshot, this would be cool - so we could already test it then.
11:11 SeanDaly sdziallas: OK we can do that no problem if there is consensus about it
11:11 tomeu is here and would like to propose a challenge (one more ) to the marketing team
11:11 sdziallas (because after June 10 it's really urgent then)
11:11 SeanDaly tomeu: Hi! shoot
11:11 tomeu ok
11:12 there's a task to be done in evince (the base we use for Read, a document reader) that will fix a memory bug we have
11:12 that bug causes Read to eat lots of memory when zooming, etc
11:12 this is something that can be fixed enterily in the GNOME space, with no interaction with sugar
11:12 what if we made a call for help?
11:13 SeanDaly tomeu: sounds good to me, just
11:13 tomeu the mission would be to entice a talented existing gnome developer to work on something that will benefit lots of kids everywhere
11:13 we may learn some good stuff about how to play with the rest of the open source world
11:13 SeanDaly I haven't developed many contacts yet don't know any Gnome devs
11:13 mchua is here, btw (mostly listening to catch up on what's going on)
11:14 SeanDaly Hi mchua I've missed you :-)
11:14 mchua SeanDaly: marcopg knows gnome devs for sure, if we can find a way to ping them
11:14 SeanDaly tomeu: where could we make such a request?
11:14 tomeu SeanDaly: my blog is in planet gnome
11:14 garycmartin waves to mchua
11:14 SeanDaly mchua: shall I try marcopg?
11:14 jt4sugar tomeu: Do you suggest we bring it up on on of their IRC channels
11:14 tomeu most gnome devs read that
11:15 mchua jeff waugh may be a good person to ping too? he and pia are v. into olpc/sugar stuff in oceania
11:15 and... well, he *definitely* knows gnome people...
11:15 SeanDaly Gnome request is a natural since OLPC v1.5 refresh gnome + sugar coexist
11:15 tomeu jt4sugar: my bets are for a blog post in my blog, that will appear in planet.gnome.org. we could make it stronger but having it mentioned in other places
11:15 like LWN
11:15 SeanDaly tomeu: I understand, yes there are a couple of places I could get it referenced I think
11:16 tomeu mchua: yeah, though I would like to see this as an experiment for us to learn to interact with that community
11:16 if someone else does our job, we don't learn
11:16 SeanDaly: just something to think about, no rush
11:16 SeanDaly In fact this is my main motivation to attend LinuxTag, to meet more devs and fewer journalists :D
11:17 tomeu: OK if/when you do a post drop me a mail I will ping my contacts
11:17 tomeu it would also benefit nokia, etc
11:17 SeanDaly: well, I was expecting the marketing team would help me shape the message ;)
11:17 SeanDaly tomeu: well, sure :-)
11:17 tomeu how would we better express the impact of this action, for example?
11:18 jt4sugar Might contact Chris Ball to get correct contact at Gnome to push this
11:18 SeanDaly tomeu: different approaches possible
11:18 "we are short resources and this fix would benefit both Sugar & Gnome"
11:19 "Sugar & Gnome together on XO-1.5, want to start working more closely together"
11:19 tomeu I believe that we don't get more help from gnome people because: people think olpc ships windows, people don't know sugarlabs and think sugar is only used in olpc machines, sugarlabs is a big organization backed by the MIT, etc
11:20 cjb hi all
11:20 mchua 'lo cjb
11:20 SeanDaly tomeu: quite right: OLPC has image difficulties, if people even know Sugar Labs they think it's an American company not a virtual nonprofit
11:20 garycmartin cjb: hi
11:20 SeanDaly greetings cjb! saw your Taipei film today cool
11:20 cjb tomeu: I think the jump from writing software that scratches your itch, to writing software that scratches someone else who you don't know's itch, is a big factor too.
11:20 tomeu SeanDaly: something like that, I was thinking of emphasizing two points: 1: how this feature will impact the learning of 100k's of kids around the world, 2: sugarlabs is an organization very similar to gnome in its constituency
11:21 cjb SeanDaly: thanks!  it's been a fun trip.
11:21 tomeu cjb: yup, thinking on that
11:21 sdziallas cjb: hey hey ;)
11:21 SeanDaly tomeu: yes I think we always feel the responsibility of our huge number of Learners
11:21 as for similar to Gnome... i don't know, but if you say so :-)
11:22 bernie cjb: where is this film?
11:22 cjb bernie: olpcnews
11:22 tomeu SeanDaly: well, they don't employ developers, for example
11:22 SeanDaly: that makes a very big difference in perception
11:22 SeanDaly Hi bernie it's on olpc.tv also olpcnews, and YouTube
11:22 tomeu: ah I didn't kknow that
11:22 cjb tomeu: some people employ GNOME developers, but not the GNOME foundation :)
11:23 tomeu cjb: well, yeah, that's a detail ;)
11:23 cjb I tend to get wary of comparisons between GNOME and Sugar Labs, because GNOME's been around for more than ten years and is used by tens of millions of people, with billion-dollar companies supporting it.
11:23 SeanDaly tomeu: just a question, is this a one-off bug fix, or are we asking for more commitment?
11:24 cjb so, yes, it's true that GNOME has volunteers and Sugar Labs has volunteers and neither employs developers, but I think that's about whre the useful comparisons stop.
11:24 tomeu our main public is going to be: gnome hackers that still are in school, gnome hackers that are employed by a company for working on gnome-related stuff, and that though theiur work is very interesting professionally, they feel a call for doing something with mroe impact
11:24 SeanDaly: I would start with a first time bugfix, to test the waters
11:24 cjb tomeu: Federico might be useful
11:24 he loves working on performance stuff, and is easily excitable, and is able to excite other people
11:24 tomeu cjb: well, what I care regarding this issue is that we aren't a big company or an org with financial backing
11:25 SeanDaly cjb: Federico?
11:25 tomeu cjb: sounds very good
11:25 cjb SeanDaly: Federico Mena Quintero; he's one of the original GNOME founders; maybe better for Tomeu or another developer to drop him a mail.
11:26 SeanDaly tomeu: you could always ask him for advice about how to find someone to help?
11:26 tomeu he lent last year his gsoc student to olpc, was a very successful intern
11:27 SeanDaly sdziallas: still here?
11:27 tomeu SeanDaly: sure, but keep in mind that this is mainly for us to learn how to get help, rather than just get the help for this on-time job
11:27 sdziallas SeanDaly: sure ;)
11:27 SeanDaly tomeu: chicken-and-egg situation... if Sugar Labs well-known, easy to recruit new contributors
11:28 But, to get Sugar Labs well-known, need to spread the word about Sugar
11:28 I can say Ii am tremendously excited about XO-1.5 refresh
11:28 cjb SeanDaly: I'm just glad we have an obvious path for shipping Sugar 0.84 ;-)
11:28 SeanDaly cjb: same here
11:28 tomeu pity about rainbow :/
11:29 SeanDaly sdziallas: I think there may be another day or two of discussion about the boot animation,
11:29 I had a question, since my PNG files are not optimized, is there a space constraint?
11:30 sdziallas SeanDaly: that's fine with me... having some kind of prelimenary decision on the weekend would be cool. Nope, that shouldn't be a problem, I'd say.
11:30 SeanDaly I saw that plymouth allows GIF-style small changes rather than full frames
11:30 sdziallas SeanDaly: I wanted to make a technical point concerning the latest mockup...
11:30 SeanDaly But, I struggle a little with graphics software
11:30 sdziallas: sure
11:30 sdziallas SeanDaly: ah, I see... hm, I'm not really into graphic design myself, either.
11:31 christianV <sdziallas>: SeanDaly:  neither do i
11:31 SeanDaly christianV: but, I've already learned a lot in 3 months :-)
11:31 sdziallas SeanDaly: If we wanted to print the version number on the boot screen, I'd need to rebuild the package containing the boot screen every time we publish a new snapshot.
11:32 SeanDaly sdziallas: actually what I had said in one of my mails was,
11:32 I can supply an imagemagick script which can generate the PNG on-the-fly
11:32 garycmartin SeanDaly: I can do a bunch of stuff once we settle on a design, but plymouth seems pretty poory documented.
11:32 SeanDaly from a text file, from editing the script, from the command line, even from a filename
11:32 sdziallas SeanDaly: yeah, but that still means that I need to package it as a RPM
11:33 SeanDaly sdziallas: ah I see... I think
11:33 garycmartin SeanDaly: ...and my big downer is running in VirtualBox I never get to see the bootloader to test and try changes.
11:33 SeanDaly garycmartin: I think the key is to contact Eric of Fedora he is the plymouth guru
11:33 sdziallas SeanDaly: that's not such a big problem for big releases, but for bi-weekly snapshots or so, it just gets annoying, because it adds at least three or four steps to the build creation process.
11:33 SeanDaly I think he will be interested in our bootscreen implementation?
11:34 sdziallas: maybe simpler to leave off snapshot version numbers then?
11:34 garycmartin SeanDaly: And adding imagemagic as a dependancy seems a bit heavyweight (it's quite large if I remember)
11:34 SeanDaly the advantage was to help us remember which snapshot it is
11:35 garycmartin: I didn't mean as a runtime or anything, just to assist creating the PNG
11:35 sdziallas SeanDaly: that's what I wanted to point out, yeah. for final or beta releases, sure, we could get it, but I'm not sure if it's worth the effort for the snapshots.
11:35 SeanDaly garycmartin: yes your help deeply appreciated when we agree on a design
11:35 sdziallas SeanDaly: hm, that's a good point, though.
11:36 SeanDaly sdziallas: less necessary if the SoaS snapshot datestamp is in the interface or a file somewhere?
11:36 garycmartin: why don't I send you one of my netbooks you can look at SoaS booting on it
11:36 sdziallas SeanDaly: well, the same problem goes for the sugar control panel: if we wanted to get it listed there, we'd need to rebuild the release package each time...
11:37 SeanDaly: maybe we can create some file with the date automatically when composing the builds
11:37 SeanDaly sdziallas: hmmm naive question: why not just a little text file with the snapshot datestamp in it?
11:38 sdziallas SeanDaly: yup, that would be it ;)
11:38 garycmartin SeanDaly: That's a kind offer, but should I be able to boot the current Soas on one of the 3 XOs here? If folks promis I can work I start trying again (but past attempts all failed to boot)
11:38 SeanDaly I'm looking at the clock, more stuff to cover perhaps we can move on?
11:39 garycmartin: my impression was networking not on XO-1 with current SoaS? haven't even had the time to test
11:39 sdziallas garycmartin: what do you get when trying to boot SoaS?
11:40 garycmartin sdziallas: last keys I tried it failed real early, not finding anything to mount I think.
11:40 SeanDaly garycmartin: firmware recent?
11:40 garycmartin SeanDaly: Yep
11:41 sdziallas garycmartin: hm, strange. I'm aware of issues with rawhide-xo, but just livecd-iso-to-xo + latest soas should work - normally... didn't try myself lately, though.
11:41 SeanDaly last time I tried I think I had to manually boot from forth commandline
11:41 garycmartin SeanDaly: sdziallas: I should try again with Soas, I can get xo-rawhide to work fine (well it had flakey booting just now).
11:41 SeanDaly I have 7 XOs at the house i will try with latest snapshot
11:42 cjb: still here?
11:42 sdziallas heh. okay ;)
11:42 garycmartin sdziallas: Thanks, will try that later today for sure (and post results)
11:42 SeanDaly christianV: did you have a chance to see my mail re: Google Adwords?
11:43 christianV yes
11:43 <SeanDaly> i'll send another draft
11:43 SeanDaly I'd like for us to put that application together this week if possible, yes another draft would be great
11:43 christianV <christianV>: <SeanDaly>  with all the remarks and new inputs
11:44 SeanDaly christianV: ok great, this could really make a difference (and thanks again to tomeu for spotting that)
11:44 christianV <christianV>: <SeanDaly> i'll be able to make it for tomorrow evening
11:44 SeanDaly garycmartin: I wanted to talk about a resources problem
11:44 garycmartin SeanDaly: sure thing.
11:44 SeanDaly When I've needed design help I turn to Christian Marc,
11:45 of course he does great work but he is very booked up
11:45 cjb SeanDaly: yup, still here, in and out
11:45 SeanDaly cjb: just wondering if you had seen our boot sequence ideas: #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/M[…]ng_Team/Boot_Logo
11:46 garycmartin: I have a possibility of a designer helping us out
11:46 garycmartin: you had forwarded me another one
11:46 garycmartin SeanDaly: Happy to help with swag and poster stuff, I'm raster and vector friendly depending on your printing/design needs.
11:46 SeanDaly garycmartin: I'm embarrassed to ask you since you do so much stuff already
11:47 an urgent thing is the booth banner
11:47 we are close to consensus on the mockup Eben did
11:48 about swag: I don't know if difficult or easy
11:48 garycmartin SeanDaly: The graphic stuff is a nice break from coding :-) Is the mockup the one with a Browse icon and lot's of XO icons around?
11:48 SeanDaly with Spreadshirt, have to check that out
11:48 walterbender SeanDaly: I have a ping out to SFC about XO graphcis... we need to proceed with caution
11:48 SeanDaly garycmartin: yes
11:49 walterbender: understood... sdziallas is asking for a fianlized version by this weekend if possible
11:49 cjb SeanDaly: looks good to me, but I'm not much of a designer :)
11:50 I like the rainbow variant
11:50 sdziallas SeanDaly: btw, did you get my e-mail about the German education magazine (with its issue regarding OLPC)?
11:50 cjb I suspect Nicholas is choosy enough to want to design whatever goes on the XO, though :-)
11:50 SeanDaly cjb: still in ides stage but we are advancing
11:51 walterbender cjb: it isn't a question of the design police as much as wanted to proceed properly re protecting trademarks
11:51 SeanDaly sdziallas: oh yes I did if they have an order form I'll just order it, do you know if they have a form?
11:51 walterbender OLPC doesn't know how to give us permission... but if we figure out how, they will
11:51 cjb ok.  I'm happy to bug people occasionally if that's helpful.
11:51 sdziallas SeanDaly: the women said I could just reply to the e-mail... wait, let me see if we can order it through a form, too.
11:52 SeanDaly walterbender: the usual formula is: "the XO avatar figure is a trademark of One Laptop per Child Association, used by permission"
11:52 cjb has very low tolerance for legal bureaucracy, is glad people other than him get paid to care about it.
11:52 SeanDaly cjb: raised my tolerance while at Groklaw ;-)
11:52 garycmartin walterbender: I did a couple of XO varients incase we hit a snag, I like OK quite a bit :-)
11:53 SeanDaly cjb: another "rainbow" mockup tonight following F.Grose suggestions
11:54 sdziallas: I can do a European bank transfer for the mag no problem
11:55 garycmartin: your POV please,
11:55 sdziallas SeanDaly: I can't find any web form... I could just forward you the e-mail. I suppose they can speak English...
11:55 christianV Sorry everybody i've got to go. is there anything else important for me to be aware of before leaving ?
11:55 SeanDaly sdziallas: or my son can translate, last time we were in Germany he did all the talking
11:55 sdziallas SeanDaly: ah, cool ;) wait... I've a link!
11:56 SeanDaly christianV: I think that's it for now, just a couple of things about swag not critical
11:56 garycmartin SeanDaly: I'm on the fence in one way or another about the boot options, I slightly favour the 'dull' all grey varient with 24 dots. My reason being the Child is most promonent, using colour around the edge pulls away from that for me.
11:56 sdziallas SeanDaly: http://log-in-verlag.de/tinc?key=Dem0n20E
11:56 SeanDaly garycmartin: in fact i do quite a lot of graphics stuff at the command line
11:56 sdziallas SeanDaly: I can get you the e-mail nevertheless ;)
11:56 christianV SeanDaly okay see you then. i'll send you the draft for google grant adwords. Bye guys !
11:56 SeanDaly where is a good place in the wiki for tips? e.g. Marten V got stuck with a swag distributir because bitmap he sent too small
11:57 sdziallas christianV: bye bye ;)
11:57 SeanDaly christianV: thanks!
11:57 garycmartin SeanDaly: note in the original that even the grey dots are carefully chosen to be fainter than the XO child icon.
11:57 caroline to me the two-colored dots made me think of community, the other kids in my class. I liked that.
11:57 SeanDaly garycmartin: yes I did notice that
11:57 hi caroline,
11:58 my concern with the dots was in case a new Learner got confused that the machine was adding networks while starting
11:58 I had started a mockup with small XO avatars... the class around the big one
11:59 But, I fear it will be confusing
11:59 garycmartin SeanDaly: yes agreed.
11:59 SeanDaly I had found the "activity spinner" graphic in the Sugar HIG and on the OLPC site
12:00 i remember seeing it on the XO, but I don't remember where (i think when Activity busy)
12:00 a round floater exists in OSX allso on YouTube for "please wait"
12:01 garycmartin SeanDaly: Don't remember seeing the activity spiner myself - the wait mouse cursor seems to be what's getting used mainly.
12:01 SeanDaly but, of course, not big at boot time :-)
12:01 I wiill link to it when I post next mockup tonight
12:01 I'm unhappy with my logo page though.
12:02 FGrose made good suggestions
12:02 garycmartin SeanDaly: activity spinner is very Mac like (used in their HIG and for shutdown and start-up), but it's very small there :-)
12:02 SeanDaly garycmartin: yes, very small indeed
12:02 after Ii upgraded tp OSX a few years ago one of kids asked me,
12:03 jt4sugar SeanDaly: And all-Sorry about in and out no idea what connection problem is will have to read log
12:03 SeanDaly "how come the computer doesn't smile anymore?"
12:03 jt4sugar: yes II see that do'nt worry I always post log link right after meeting
12:03 caroline :)
12:03 garycmartin SeanDaly: FWIW, I think the XO staying the same size works better.
12:04 SeanDaly garycmartin: I like the "arrival", but at the same time it sort of fights the rainbow rays
12:05 garycmartin SeanDaly: so how about the circle appearing as two eyes, an ear, big mouth smile, the last ear and all's done?
12:05 SeanDaly Another possible treatment: fade it in with very light grey, darker , to dark grey
12:05 garycmartin: do you feel like giving it a shot?
12:05 I've been concerned about staying in the HIG
12:06 But a friendly greeting to our Learners, it's a natural
12:06 garycmartin SeanDaly: Sure, will do (I had a bunch of other fun ones in mind, but not realistic).
12:06 SeanDaly actually I thought going from a smiling face to a faceless avatar might be a rough transition
12:07 Kids love faces
12:07 garycmartin SeanDaly: (mainly around animations involving simple games, but as I said, just for fun)
12:08 SeanDaly At age 4 my older son could remember 56 (!) Thomas the Tank Engine characters
12:08 wooden trains,
12:08 while the Brio models were "generic" (a bit like the XO avatar I'm afraid) and he would call them "nobody"
12:09 I think it's an example of grownups believing kids will like it, but kids probably preferring faces
12:09 garycmartin SeanDaly: Thomas... yes a friends sone is like that, and you had to be real good with the names or get into much drama :-)
12:10 SeanDaly garycmartin: Thomas, Percy, Henry, Gordon, James, Toby, Donald & Douglas...
12:10 Bertie the bus
12:10 terence the Tractor
12:10 garycmartin SeanDaly: So you think XO avatar could be better as a smiling face avater?
12:11 SeanDaly garycmartin: I do, but
12:11 need to look at that
12:11 Lego also started out with "faceless" little people
12:12 market studies revealed kids were drawing faces on the yellow heads
12:12 Now you get smilers, frowners, yellers
12:12 pirate beards,
12:12 garycmartin SeanDaly: I like the idea, it's 'younger' rather than 'older' childeren, I wonder what the age break would be.
12:13 SeanDaly garycmartin: I'm convinced we should position Sugar as first computer learning environment, to ages 10-12
12:13 garycmartin SeanDaly: and soon Harry Potter...
12:13 SeanDaly garycmartin: if anything I'd prefer the Cat in the Hat
12:13 garycmartin SeanDaly: :-)
12:13 SeanDaly But aside from existing characters, kids react to faces for sure
12:14 example: my son had CD-ROMs of SamSam, the smallest of the great heroes (Ffrench character)
12:14 SamSam had a little bear called SamNounours (SamTeddybear)
12:15 garycmartin SeanDaly: How about 12 dots that are simple round faces, starting with sleeping, all the way around to awake and smiling?
12:15 SeanDaly in the CD-ROM, whenevr my son would complete the task (memory game or whatever), SamNounours would jump for joy
12:15 my son loved that "recognition"
12:15 garycmartin: wow very interesting idea!!
12:15 garycmartin SeanDaly: OK, will mock that one up also.
12:16 SeanDaly I had also thought of a central face looking at the dots and making faces for each one
12:16 garycmartin SeanDaly: yea
12:16 SeanDaly of course, problem is time is short, but
12:16 now's the moment to at least express these ideas visually
12:16 garycmartin SeanDaly: when I mock up the first (dots drawing a whole face, I'll make the two eyes follow the drawing reveal
12:17 SeanDaly of course, we could always "focus group" the mockups with... kids :D
12:18 I have to leave soon...
12:18 jt4sugar, anything on your mind?
12:18 garycmartin SeanDaly: OK, regarding poster...
12:19 SeanDaly garycmartin: yes?
12:19 garycmartin SeanDaly: You want me to make rollup_mockup1.png as a resolution independant vector?
12:19 SeanDaly i will send you what my local design house worked with when I designed the FFSFE rollup banner with them
12:20 garycmartin SeanDaly: OK
12:20 SeanDaly Resolution independent better I think
12:20 garycmartin just skimming the thread, see rollup_mockup2.png as well
12:20 SeanDaly but I don't know if what they gave me was just a PDF proof, or the actual file or what
12:21 I'm not sure if left-justifying works
12:21 garycmartin SeanDaly: A PDF with all vector artwork should be safest bet I'd say.
12:21 SeanDaly Christian had mentioned centred might be better
12:22 re rollup_mockup2.png: adding a few more Activities floating around would be good idea I think
12:22 garycmartin SeanDaly: Visually v1 looks better to my eye.
12:23 SeanDaly Colors, or text justification issue?
12:23 garycmartin SeanDaly: justification/balance
12:23 SeanDaly I agree and I think that's what Christian was saying too
12:24 The other "controversial" thing I did was to add ".org" to the logo on the bottom
12:24 As we do not own the .com, ii feel it's important to show the .org
12:24 garycmartin SeanDaly: sneek ;-)
12:24 SeanDaly Also, underlines our status as nonprofit
12:25 "sneek"?
12:25 "sneak"?
12:25 garycmartin SeanDaly: yea, forgive my rotten spelling!
12:25 SeanDaly aym an ouful speler whin taiping
12:25 garycmartin SeanDaly: (and it is my first and only language, shame on me)
12:26 SeanDaly Caroline had specially asked for a "pink" one in that ring
12:26 #LINK http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO_colors
12:26 #LINK http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:XO_colors
12:27 walterbender SeanDaly: that list is out of date
12:27 garycmartin SeanDaly: OK will make a vector version and check thread for such comments, and then send out for review. Easy to change. Deadline?
12:27 walterbender SeanDaly: look at the xoeditor activity for the complete set of colors
12:27 SeanDaly walterbender: surely is and in fact I had amused myself by generating random combos by sedding the SVG file in a pipe
12:28 walterbender: will do
12:28 OK I think I'll wind down marketing meeting
12:29 garycmartin SeanDaly: Only 27min over run, not bad ;-)
12:29 SeanDaly garycmartin: sorry about that, but
12:29 boot animation is incredible opportunity for branding
12:29 worth the effort
12:30 garycmartin SeanDaly: agreed!
12:30 SeanDaly OK I'm going to end but will stay online a few more mins
12:30 #endmeeting

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