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#sugar-meeting, 2009-04-23

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
10:01 walterbender This is the first of what might be a new series of mini developer tutorials
10:01 The idea emerged in discussion in IRC last week.
10:02 tomeu hi!
10:02 walterbender We all have pockets of knowledge about how to do things... this is a forum to share them.
10:03 I thought I would kick it off the series, but hopefully others will jump in.
10:03 #topic keyboard shortcuts
10:03 tomeu we could take at the end about topics for further sessions
10:03 walterbender #TOPIC keyboard shortcuts
10:03 tomeu the bot may be a bit slow?
10:04 walterbender OK. Let's cover todays topic and then discuss the meta issues.
10:04 Before I begin, let me remind everyone that we have an almanac for developers in the wiki.
10:04 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ment_Team/Almanac
10:05 One of the sections is on tool buttons.
10:05 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]aphics.toolbutton
10:05 I managed to follow these instructions in order to create the toolbars for Turtle Art
10:06 http://git.sugarlabs.org/proje[…]line/trees/master
10:06 http://git.sugarlabs.org/proje[…]tleArtActivity.py
10:07 The relevant code is line 35, lines 74,75, and 81-88
10:08 There are classes for each toolbar and then callbacks for each button
10:08 when you define a button, beginning on line 699...
10:09 garycmartin was in wrong room
10:09 walterbender you define things such as tooltip and the callback itself
10:09 For a keyboard shortcut, simply add a call to props.accelerator as in the examples
10:10 e.g., self.palette.props.accelerator = '<Alt>p'
10:10 And it magically works.
10:10 I added a new section in the almanac to document this tip
10:10 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]to_my_tool_button.3F
10:10 Any quesitons?
10:11 lucian1900 walterbender: how do users set up keyboard shortcuts?
10:11 tomeu modifying python files :p
10:11 walterbender lucian1900: you mean to override the Sugar defaults?
10:11 lucian1900 tomeu: besides that?
10:11 walterbender: yes, like for different langauges
10:11 walterbender lucian1900: I don't think we have a way of doing that
10:12 lucian1900 walterbender: alright
10:12 tomeu lucian1900: translators can override the accelerators when they translate
10:12 walterbender lucian1900: if you want to add keyboard shortcuts for your javascript activities...
10:12 tomeu though for that, the string needs to be _('<Alt>p')
10:12 walterbender we need to investigate
10:12 lucian1900 tomeu: it requires the translators to know python
10:12 tomeu: or at least have an idea about it. right?
10:12 walterbender tomeu: good point. I'll update the documentation (and TA)
10:12 tomeu lucian1900: no, they just translate it as with any other string, in pootle
10:13 lucian1900: but they do need to know what an accelerator is, and need to create some guidelines for that language
10:13 lucian1900 tomeu: right
10:13 tomeu some translation teams choose to leave the same as in english, other translate them
10:13 garycmartin tomeu: FWIW I retested using non numeric or alpha as a shortcut and it's still failing here (wanted to use + and = for zoom in and out)
10:14 tomeu hmm
10:15 garycmartin: how does it fail?
10:16 garycmartin tomeu: /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/​sugar/graphics/toolbutton.py:47: GtkWarning: gtk_accel_group_connect: assertion `accel_key > 0' failed (I think is the error
10:16 tomeu cool, let me see
10:18 walterbender While tomeu is debugging, I'd like to switch to the meta topic. OK?
10:18 tomeu sure
10:19 walterbender #topic mini tutorials
10:19 a bunch of questions:
10:19 1. was it useful?
10:19 2. should we do it again?
10:19 3. if so, how do we organize it?
10:20 4. should we archive the minutes outside of the almanac and the general meeting archive?
10:20 re 1. I learned two things today, so for me it was useful
10:21 I learned that there was a hole in the almanac's documentation
10:21 and I learned that you could use gettext for tooltips...
10:22 I think I filled in the hole...
10:22 lucian1900 1. i learned how shortcuts work and how to define toolbars
10:22 walterbender I also learned that there is more to the topic than I had been considering...
10:22 so I think we should do more of these...
10:23 lucian1900 2. sure, it's at least a reason read and write a bit of sugar code
10:23 3. irc seems fine, at least for me
10:24 4. i have no idea
10:24 walterbender lucian1900: I don't know if this format was useful to newbies...
10:24 lucian1900: I don't know if irc is useful to newbies
10:24 tomeu garycmartin: here is the code that parses the string: http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gtk+[…]ccelgroup.c#n1110
10:25 walterbender lucian1900: and I certainly didn't do a very good job of advertizing
10:25 lucian1900 walterbender: yes, advertising was poor :P
10:26 walterbender: grated irc is not that common with us younger folk, but it does the job
10:26 walterbender: and it's established enough that anyone the least bit technial can figure it out
10:26 tomeu about the developer meetings, now is a good moment to work in projects that are upstream to us, as we give them time to get stuff released in time for the next distro releases
10:26 that's why sugar devs might not be direclty hacking on sugar right now
10:27 walterbender lucian1900: maybe we could try using jabber for a meeting?
10:27 tomeu once we get back to the regular dev meetings, may be easier to coordinate this other meet-ups
10:27 wonder what alternatives to irc exist
10:27 lucian1900 walterbender: besides gtalk, jabber isn't very popular
10:28 tomeu lucian1900: is there any technology being used in place of irc?
10:28 lucian1900 lucian1900: mainly IM and stuff like facebook afaik
10:29 s/lucian1900/tomeu
10:29 walterbender lucian1900: maybe we should use facebook for the next one
10:29 lucian1900 walterbender: heh
10:29 walterbender lucian1900: seriously.
10:29 lucian1900 walterbender: i don't think it has good group chat facilities
10:29 for group chats, irc and IMs are still the best
10:30 walterbender what about an IM instead of IRC?
10:30 tomeu do you know any open source project using any IM technology instead of irc?
10:30 walterbender tomeu: no. But I have evidence that we are losing people. Maybe an IM meeting on how to use IRC???
10:31 lucian1900 walterbender: heh
10:31 tomeu walterbender: don't know myself, we should pick the brains of someone not in irc yet
10:31 lucian1900 walterbender: we should find some really good irc clients to recommend for each platform
10:32 walterbender: for me, proxy support for example is a problem
10:32 walterbender tomeu: I agree.
10:32 lucian1900: I use chatzilla these days... easy since it is a firefox addon
10:32 garycmartin-5069 sorry my VM locked up, back on an XO now...
10:32 tomeu garycmartin-5069: what do you think about irc being too alien to newcomers? what could be done about it? switch to something else? make it easier to use irc?
10:33 the problem I see is that lots of sugar coding is done in cooperation with other FOSS projects
10:33 and the people working on those projects are on IRC
10:34 walterbender tomeu: I think that the non-technical issues may be better handled in less austere environments...
10:34 tomeu I'm in irc.gimpnet for gtk/gnome and abiword, irc.freenode for sugar, fedora and gnash, irc.mozilla for asloa nd xulrunner, ...
10:34 walterbender: oh, totally
10:34 garycmartin-5069 tomeu: sorry missed the last ~5min. Is Chat considered stable enough now? I must say I used IRC a 10+ years ago but never since until Sugar/OLPC
10:35 tomeu garycmartin: well, I would ask if it's appropriate, rather than stable, to host dozens of people at the same time
10:35 but maybe could be with little work
10:35 walterbender I'd really like to try using Chat for a meeting of some sort, if only to understand the limitations
10:37 garycmartin-5069 tomeu: I think the main downside still is that you can't copy paste from the main screen, but we would need a reliable jabber server. The sooner we start dog-fooding the sooner we'll see and fix the issues.
10:37 tomeu yeah, we need to improve the jabber side of things
10:37 garycmartin-5069: about accelerators, you need to pass '<Alt>plus'
10:38 garycmartin-5069: the names are taken from /usr/include/X11/keysymdef.h
10:38 walterbender tomeu: I'll make note of it in the almanac!!
10:38 tomeu #define XK_plus                          0x002b  /* U+002B PLUS SIGN */
10:38 without XK_
10:38 walterbender: don't know why the gtk docs don't say where the names come from
10:39 had to look into the source code of gtk, gdk and X11 to get to it
10:39 garycmartin-5069 tomeu: Ahh intersting, I was googling for ages trying to find where they came from :-) thanks!
10:39 tomeu unfortunately, it's handy to have the sources at hand
10:41 hi FGrose
10:42 walterbender tomeu: well, now it is documented in the Almanac :)
10:42 FGrose tomeu: Hi
10:42 walterbender so, to wrap up:
10:42 tomeu thanks!
10:43 walterbender #TODO hold a mini tutorial in Chat on how to use IRC
10:43 #TODO do a better job of advertizing
10:43 #TODO define some mechanism for scheduling
10:45 anything else to add to this five minute meeting (that has lasted 45 minutes :) )
10:46 FGrose walterbender: Do you have a wiki home page?
10:46 walterbender FGrose: User:Walter
10:47 FGrose walterbender: For the tutorial series?
10:47 walterbender FGrose: no. Not yet.
10:47 garycmartin-5069 walterbender: thanks for running it! (though I'll need to read the back logs and see what was covered)
10:47 lucian1900 walterbender: yep, thanks for the session :)
10:47 walterbender FGrose: I'll set something up in the wiki and solicit contributors in my blog
10:48 FGrose: and I'll finally figure out how to use the calendaring system you set up!!
10:48 garycmartin-5069 walterbender: Were there any specific activties you see as missing accelerator support?
10:49 walterbender garycmartin-5069: nothing in particular, just in general, it was not well documented
10:49 tomeu would be nice to have tickets in trac about adding missing accelerators
10:49 in activities and in the shell
10:49 walterbender garycmartin-5069: and I think that especially in light of non-XO keyboards, we'll want to use more rather than less
10:49 tomeu that way, people will be able to to give their opinions about using one accelerator or another
10:51 garycmartin-5069 walterbender: Write seems to accept things like <ctrl>b for bold, but it's not using acceleratorsin the toolbar, might be a little more to unpick there.
10:53 walterbender garycmartin-5069: I don't think Write is doing that using PyGTK. I think it is buried somewhere in the abiword library
10:54 garycmartin-5069: for most activity developers, the props.accelerator mechanism should be sufficient
10:55 garycmartin-5069 walterbender: yea, but having them in the toolbar (even if we let the events 'fall thru' to the actual code) would be useful documentation.
10:55 homunq_ hi
10:55 missed the 5 minutes
10:55 but I like the backlog
10:55 I do think we should start to have stricter standards for accelerators, though.
10:56 walterbender garycmartin-5069: you are correct in regards to that specific case. I suppose that it should be easy enough to add to the Python wrapper...
10:56 homunq_ I'd advocate alt reserved for activities, and ctrl reserved for sugar.
10:56 walterbender homunq_: I mention this in the Almanac entry I made.
10:56 tomeu walterbender, garycmartin: Write uses an abiword plugin to set the accelerators in a xml file, we should unset there the ones we set in gtk
10:57 see keybindings.xml in the Write dir
10:57 walterbender homunq_: on a meta topic, this mini tutorial caused a lot of additional issues to be raised... not a bad thing
10:57 garycmartin-5069: do you want to file a ticket for Write?
10:58 garycmartin-5069: and include Tomeu's comment re xml?
10:58 garycmartin-5069 walterbender: sure, was just wondering if I should try to poke it myself (as I raised it) but a ticket is a good start :-)
10:58 tomeu yeah, tickets are good discussion outcomes
10:59 walterbender garycmartin-5069: go for it...
11:00 well, given that it is now UTC 15:00, I'll end the meeting
11:00 3
11:00 2
11:00 1
11:00 #end-meeting
11:01 FGrose walterbender: #endmeeting
11:01 walterbender #endmeeting

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