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#sugar-meeting, 2009-04-19

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
09:11 cms excellent
09:11 first of all, thanks for meeting
09:11 it's been a while since we have had the chance to discuss the UI design
09:12 in the meantime, i have a copy of SoaS that allowed me to test the latest release
09:12 and i was blown away--it works amazingly well
09:12 and i'm referring in particular to the new home view
09:12 tomeu cms: in what aspects it exceeded your expectatives?
09:12 aha
09:13 and next release we may have versions in the journal ;)
09:13 cms well, it is essentially the complete manifestation of the design
09:13 for home
09:13 and it proved to me that we were on the right track
09:14 i had reservations about Home last time we talked, that were largely founded in having only had access to a previous version of Sugar without a complete Home implementation
09:14 tomeu I'm a bit sad we didn't had time to do the alt version of the home, when you go back to all new instances while alt is pressed
09:14 cms i no longer have any reservations--only ideas for how we can continue to extend it
09:14 tomeu: yes, i agree that would be a nice feature to add
09:14 eben tomeu: That's a great extension to add.
09:14 tomeu it will fall for 0.86 for sure
09:14 eben excellent
09:15 cms like the alt version, there are ways that we can continue to improve and extend Home
09:15 garycmartin tomeu: fab
09:15 cms for instance, walter mentioned the ability to have groups of activities
09:15 i think that would be a great way to extend the concept of favorites
09:15 i.e., instead of just one set of favorites, could i assign other categories to my activities?
09:15 eben cms: Right: I think that activity grouping might actually be best realized with the search that's been implied, but missing, so far.
09:16 tomeu there's tagging, as well
09:16 cms eben: yes, that would be a way to do it. i also think that you could perhaps assign categories to activities on the basis of tags, similar to in the journal
09:16 eben Grouping is then synonymous with tagging (which we already support via the Journal), and the view would behave just like the other views, eg. neighborhood.
09:16 tomeu and yeah, being able to start typing to select the activity you want to launch would be great
09:16 cms eben: exactly
09:17 so i think we have a great foundation upon which to keep improving
09:17 garycmartin eben: yes getting search right could solve groupings without adding complications to the basic ui
09:17 eben I think the other important feature, in addition to building the search field, is to add tags into activity.info so that activities can come "pre-tagged".
09:17 cms eben: that's a great idea
09:17 it would be nice to have predefined sets of categories
09:18 eben This can make it easier to jump in and find "games", or "music" or "programming" activities, and can also serve for developers to group sets like "mamamedia" and "gcompris"
09:18 Which was a big feature request from those groups early on.
09:18 cms before we go too far brainstorming new features (which we generally should!), i wanted to put out an agenda for this morning
09:18 garycmartin cms: predefined set of categories, always a major nightmare of ontology...
09:19 cms: we still can't agree on ASLO
09:19 cms gary: good point!
09:19 eben cms: I'm not sure it's necessary to predefine them. I think instead it would be nice to track them so that organically the sets emerge.
09:19 cms eben: yes, that probably makes more sense
09:20 eben There's no reason an activity couldn't use any tag at all, but clearly there is some advantage to having the "basic" tags which other activities agree on.
09:20 tomeu garycmartin: more than string disagreement, I see indiference
09:20 garycmartin: so if someone motivated wanted to go ahead...
09:20 garycmartin tomeu: ahh
09:20 cms so, briefly, for our agenda:
09:21 (1) i thought we should talk about any plans we have for testing the UI. i know that some of this has already happened, maybe tomeu can fill us in?
09:21 (2) we should discuss the development schedule and any features that need design work
09:22 (3) for our next meeting, we should reconvene and look at concrete design ideas (in form of storyboards). let's agree on what we should work on today
09:22 does anyone want to add anything?
09:23 garycmartin cms: sounds good.
09:23 eben (2) and (3) are pretty broad, so we'll probably cover most topics people are interested in under those.
09:23 cms i thought it would be a relatively short meeting today--more of a planning conversation
09:23 eben: that's true. we should make an attempt to prioritize
09:23 hi walter!
09:23 tomeu don't know about testing, but walterbender would know
09:24 (03:20:51 PM) cms: (1) i thought we should talk about any plans we have for testing the UI. i know that some of this has already happened, maybe tomeu can fill us in?
09:24 walterbender hi. sorry I am late
09:24 tomeu hi walterbender and sdziallas
09:24 sdziallas hi all :)
09:24 cms hi sdziallas
09:24 garycmartin sdziallas: hi
09:24 walterbender: morning!
09:24 cms walter and sdziallas, are you able to read the transcript?
09:25 walterbender cms: alas, no
09:25 cms or should i quickly sum up where we are?
09:25 walterbender please
09:25 tomeu I can quickly paste it
09:25 sdziallas yeah, would be great!
09:25 cms great, thanks tomeu
09:25 tomeu sdziallas, walterbender: http://pastebin.be/17936
09:25 sdziallas tomeu: thanks!
09:26 tomeu yw
09:28 walterbender is all caught up
09:28 cms: how would you like to proceed?
09:29 cms i thought we could talk about any testing that happened
09:29 whether there were any observations that we should take into account
09:29 walterbender cms: I am unaware of any testing in the CHI sense
09:29 cms ok
09:29 walterbender cms: but we have plenty of observations from the field
09:30 even yesterday, we saw 30-40 kids use the interface for the first time
09:30 cms walterbender: are those observations listed anywhere?
09:30 walterbender cms: not in one single place
09:31 cms: but for example, Caroline is writing up notes from yesterday that confrim many of our own observations...
09:31 cms walterbender: excellent!
09:31 walterbender I can paste her rough notes if you'd like
09:31 cms i think it's important to continue to observe how kids are using the UI and the home view, in order to continue to improve it
09:31 tomeu wow, that's great
09:31 cms walterbender: sure, that would be great. though i wonder if we might look at those independently after the meeting
09:32 unless there are specific observations that could inform our discussion today?
09:32 walterbender http://pastebin.be/17938
09:33 cms great, thanks!
09:33 generally, what i wanted to accomplish today was to create a list of features that need designing
09:33 in light of our development timeline
09:33 walterbender cms: I think these observations confirm issues we ahve discussed about the home page and some issues we discussed about SoaS
09:33 discoverability
09:33 cms interesting, yes
09:34 not being able to go back to home
09:34 walterbender my take away is slightly different from Caroline's
09:34 cms are kids using the frame?
09:34 walterbender Not in a 30-60 minute session...
09:34 cms it takes more time to discover perhaps
09:35 walterbender cms but in more regular use, yes
09:35 cms the home issue is interesting
09:35 the XO of course had keys for the four zoom-levels
09:35 walterbender cms: that is one of the problems with user studies...
09:35 eben walterbender: I'm curious, it says the kids aren't using the frame, but it also says they start lots of activities without closing any.
09:35 Those two statements seem to be in conflict.
09:35 walterbender cms: in a 30-60 minute session, the views aren't used at all
09:36 eben: they had an adult helping them
09:36 cms walterbender: kids appear to remain in the activities they start, and switch between them
09:36 walterbender eben: part of the problem was no OLPC keyboard
09:37 cms walterbender: the frame is the parallel way to navigate to the other zoom-levels;
09:37 garycmartin I wish we had a toolbar design where 'Stop' was always visible.
09:37 eben walterbender: Right, but we can't depend on that, in any case. But ok, Frame takes some getting used to.
09:37 walterbender garycmartin: yes. I think that is a priority
09:37 one of my take aways from yesterday is that the kids don't grok tabs
09:37 eben garycmartin: Yes, that's a tricky issue. The new toolbar design Could actually provide that, maybe.
09:38 cms how do kids use sugar at first? are they left to their own devices, or do they get a brief tutorial?
09:38 eben walterbender: That's understandable. Do you think the new design might improve that?
09:38 walterbender cms: in yesterday's test, it was sink or swim... no time (or patience) for a tutorial
09:39 cms: we cannot count on one
09:39 cms walterbender: and we shouldn't need one ;)
09:39 walterbender eben: think a design where tabs look more like buttons (like the new design) will probably help
09:39 eben Also, the other non-activity-specific comment in these notes is about the keep dialog being annoying, but I suspect that's true in these cases because they are short sessions in which all of the activities are started from scratch, and not meant to be kept permanently, so I think it might be less a problem in practice.
09:40 walterbender cms: I think teachers/mentors would look at a manual/tutorial
09:40 cms: but we can do a better job of "staging"
09:40 eben walterbender: Right. I think it may also help since the tabs don't remove the default toolbar...they appear beneath it, so you never get lost.
09:40 cms eben: i think the new toolbars are a huge improvement
09:41 how would we go about laying the groundwork for their adoption?
09:42 walterbender here is an idealet: maybe the frame and journal should appear on the default toolbar
09:42 eben I think we just need to develop them in parallel...make it easy for devs to try them out.
09:43 cms walterbender: that is a good idea
09:43 eben walterbender: Hmmm, not sure. It makes them available, though they aren't actually part of the activity...
09:43 cms walterbender: certainly the frame makes sense there
09:43 eben: i do think we need to make the frame more discoverable...
09:44 eben cms: Yes, true.
09:44 cms what if we went back to activating the screen edges to invoke the frame?
09:44 eben Oh, that's been turned off?
09:44 That's the only way it's discoverable at all...
09:44 cms the corners currently, correct?
09:44 garycmartin eben: only by default, the pref is still there
09:44 eben We definitely can't depend on an unlabeled key on the keyboard.
09:44 cms i meant the entire edge of the screen, on delay
09:44 eben garycmartin: I think it's a big mistake to turn it off by default.
09:45 My feeling is that we should set a delay by default, so accidental invocation is less likely. They may then turn it off once they've discovered it and understand how to use it.
09:46 cms: I think the corners are still sufficient, actually.
09:46 cms eben: +1
09:46 walterbender On SoaS, I think we may want to turn edges back pn
09:46 garycmartin eben: lets make sure we hide the cursor on keyboard use then. cursor is quite large and get's in the way when writing, flinging it out the way is going to invoke edges
09:46 eben garycmartin: Yes, definitely.
09:46 cms walterbender: yes, i think the edges would make it more discoverable. it was an issue on the XO due to the trackpad, but on other systems it would probably work fine
09:46 eben I think there's been a bug filed on that issue for a long time.
09:47 walterbender Sugar really is different on different machines...
09:47 garycmartin eben: FWIW I tried hot edges for a week and eventually switched it off. Too many accidental invocations.
09:47 eben Actually, I still disagree with edges, myself. I think that we should keep them clear so that scrolling, and hitting toolbar buttons, doesn't interfere with it...
09:47 I think corners alone would be fine on a short delay, and enough to make it discoverable at least.
09:47 cms garycmartin: could edges only be turned on by default? if it becomes too distracting, it should be easy to turn off, but initially we want to make sure people are able to find the frame
09:48 walterbender eben: maybe bigger corners?
09:48 eben cms: You don't think corners will be enough?
09:48 cms eben: i'm not convinced the corners are discoverable enough
09:48 walterbender: bigger corners might do the trick
09:48 walterbender without a frame key, it is hard to discover
09:48 or put it on the default menu
09:48 eben cms: Maybe we should test it. We didn't even have edge activation at all for months and people were complaining that the Frame was activated too easily, recall.
09:48 cms eben: that's true. although we were testing on XOs
09:49 walterbender eben: but we should make sure wr do more testing on nonXOs
09:49 cms eben: ultimately, it seems like it really is a preference, but we should set the default in favor of easy discoverability
09:49 eben Maybe its something we need to test out. Set it up 3 or 4 ways: corner-no-delay, corner-delay, corner-edge-delay, corner-edge-long-delay...
09:50 cms: Yeah, definitely. I agree it needs to be discoverable; but maybe we should test to see what level is discoverable, and what level is annoying.
09:50 cms let's go back to toolbars for a minute
09:50 is there any additional design work that needs to happen, for instance adding the frame icon?
09:51 tomeu, would it be possible to start developing the new toolbars for core activities for the next release?
09:51 eben cms: Hmm.....I suppose you could "special case" the Frame button, if we decided it did have a place in the toolbar...
09:51 It could actually sit in the very corner position.
09:51 cms eben: yes, i rather like the idea...
09:51 garycmartin eben: toolbar, adding the stop buttong, to mock-ups don't show it, think sharing is missing too IIR ;-)
09:51 eben And not take up addition space.
09:51 cms eben: right!
09:51 eben We also had another concept for the Frame button, which I kind of like still, too.
09:52 cms eben: which concept was that?
09:52 eben That was: Any time the cursor enters the 75x75px square in any corner of the screen, we reveal a Frame button in it's place.
09:52 walterbender eben: please remind us
09:53 eben: that certainly would help on the XO, where there is a corresponding Frame button
09:53 but on a standard keyboard, I don't know
09:53 cms eben: an interesting idea, though i think a fixed position on the toolbar may ultimately be more effective
09:53 garycmartin eben: yea I like it, bigger corners (click to show frame) or hit the very corner for auto reveal.
09:54 eben walterbender: It should help on any machine...because the button could appear instantaneously...
09:54 cms eben: the frame "button" could be slightly grayed out and only in the top left
09:55 eben cms: Yes, that might also work.
09:55 cms eben: the advantage of the hover is that it could happen for all four corners...
09:55 eben cms: Right, which is an important idea.
09:55 The gray button in the corner of the toolbar is neatly minimal, though...
09:55 I guess it could be in both corners, but that doesn't buy you that much.
09:56 cms eben: yes, it could feel very integrated
09:56 walterbender or both
09:56 eben walterbender: Right, that's what I was suggesting.
09:56 cms walterbender: both corners?
09:56 eben cms: We have two corners in every toolbar...
09:56 cms walterbender: that could work...
09:56 eben: true
09:57 eben Not sure it's any better to have 2 instead of 1, when really it's all 4 that matter.
09:57 If you don't have all 4, maybe one is enough?
09:57 cms ok, let's make this into a task
09:57 #1: design mockups to make the frame more discoverable
09:58 eben #2: design mockups to polish the new toolbars
09:58 cms i would like to record design "tasks" as we go a long and distribute the work at the end of our meeting, so we can reconvene next time and have something to look at
09:58 thanks eben!
09:59 is tomeu stil there?
09:59 walterbender can we talk about about the homeview?
09:59 eben In particular, there was some concern that the current toolbars don't have textual labels corresponding to them. That's the only big hole in their design, I think.
09:59 garycmartin eben: yep
09:59 cms eben: i don't think that is a problem--text would appear on rollover, consistent with the rest of the UI
09:59 eben cms: That's not true....
09:59 On rollover, the full toolbar appears. ;)
09:59 cms eben: no?
09:59 eben: ah, yes
10:00 eben: so i agree--we need a way to label toolbars
10:00 eben Which, we argued, was better than text, since you could see our options in front of you...but that doesn't help in the case of documentation, or talking about them.
10:00 cms should we move on to homeview?
10:00 tomeu cms: back
10:00 cms hi tomeu
10:01 tomeu one problem I see with the new toolbars is that they don't belong to the set of widgets in gtk
10:01 cms did you follow the conversation? we were just talking about the new toolbar design
10:01 eben Yes, let's
10:01 tomeu that means it will be quite a bit of work
10:01 cms tomeu: i see
10:01 tomeu palettes have been a nightmare to date
10:01 eben tomeu: Right. They're more of an extension of palettes, which embed a toolbar within a palette...
10:02 tomeu: True, but they finally work!
10:02 tomeu yeah, and the current palettes don't do everything in the design
10:02 cms tomeu: so we may need to prioritize
10:02 tomeu eben: well, but when we move forward to the design, will break again ;)
10:02 eben I'm not sure how else we're going to improve things, though. If we never try to build them, they'll never get built. :)
10:03 cms tomeu: we should probably follow up with a technical feasibility discussion
10:03 eben Yeah.
10:03 tomeu I like the design btw, maybe would be worth one first exploratory try
10:03 then reevaluate
10:03 cms tomeu: that sounds like a great idea. we could also modify the design if there are major technical difficulities
10:03 tomeu yeah, we should get our feet wet first
10:03 eben A first implementation might not do all the nifty preview stuff, perhaps....though I think that could be enormously useful.
10:04 tomeu nifty preview stuff? /me get scared
10:04 eben A simple on/off toggle via button might be a good first step.
10:04 tomeu: Making the toolbars appear transiently on hover, like palettes, so that you don't have to lock them into place to use sub-buttons...
10:04 cms walterbender: we had started to talk earlier about home view, and enabling tagging/search for grouping activities
10:04 eben But I digress....we can move on to Home.
10:04 tomeu oh, I see
10:05 will be easier without it, yeah
10:05 walterbender re homeview, I have observed and gotten from teachers is the desire for more rather than less structure in the homeview
10:05 cms walterbender: btw, i am fully on-board with ring now, after finally having had the chance to use the latest version
10:06 when teachers said more structure, what did they mean by that?
10:06 eben walterbender: Right. We propose to push the tagging idea further so that it's possible to create arbitrary groups of activities oneself, and also allow activity creators to pre-tag activities; the search field would then work just like neighborhood, and provide a way to filter the ring to specific activity sets/groups/tags
10:06 walterbender I think some of the ideas discussed at the start of the meeting... easy to manage groups of actviites
10:06 eben I think this would be a big help to teachers and for more casual use of Sugar
10:07 cms yes, let's put some thought into that. eben, i like where search/tagging is going
10:07 garycmartin Should activity managment be moved to Journal, rather than in a home list view?
10:07 eben A parallel project to getting this searching working in Home, is to improve tagging in general so that it's easier and more fun to use.
10:07 cms we could display tags next to search in the Home toolbar
10:08 eben garycmartin: If we put *every* activity in the Journal (including pre-installed), we might do that. But I think the list view itself should remain
10:08 cms garycmartin: actually, we talked about the implications of that earlier. i personally think there is merit to keeping them separate, for usability
10:08 the journal feels too distant from home, even though structurally i tend to agree that activities could live there
10:08 eben A thought to improve activity tagging: could we have the tag field exposed in the secondary palette, so that you can just right-click or hover and then add a tag?
10:09 garycmartin eben: Isn't the current list view really just a custom filter of the Journal bundles (if all activities are added as bundles)?
10:09 eben cms: Activities *should* live there....the Home view, ideally, should be a filter of the Journal, in a sense.
10:09 tomeu garycmartin: I think that the idea is that all the zoom levels have their own list view, btw
10:09 cms eben: that makes sense structurally, though it may not be important that it is visible in that way to the user
10:09 eben garycmartin: That's the intent. I think that it might not be exact, if activities come preinstalled....
10:10 garycmartin eben: (so I guess I'm suggesting Journal has a nice button for filter activity bundles)
10:10 cms tomeu: that's correct
10:10 eben cms: ?
10:10 Oh, right.
10:10 cms eben: mean to say, i think we still need list view in home
10:10 eben I'm agreeing with you. :)
10:10 Just arguing that we might not need eg. "delete" in the list...
10:11 walterbender a slightly orthogonal  issue is whatever the default ordering is for the views (list or otherwise)
10:11 cms well,
10:11 eben maybe we could push management into the Journal "where it belongs" and make home all about launching.
10:11 cms at that point it probably makes more sense to have all activity management happen in one place (i.e. home view)
10:11 walterbender right now, it is based on modification date in the HomeView and Journal
10:11 but people find that confusing
10:11 eben walterbender: It would help if we had the list control....
10:12 walterbender something more stable over time, even alphabetical would be better by default
10:12 eben tomeu: Is there a reason we're using hippo for the lists?
10:12 GTK has a "sort-bar" control for lists, right?
10:12 cms walterbender: i agree that alphabetical seems more intuitiv
10:12 walterbender the reason I like it is that it is repeatable...
10:13 eben walterbender: Yeah, that might be, at the very least, the correct default until we have a control which indicates the columns clearly. It might even always be the right choice.
10:13 Yeah, I think you're right. Duplicating the time-ordered approach actually confuses it with the Journal...
10:13 walterbender there are plenty of equivalents that are equally stable, but mod-time is not one of them
10:13 eben Maybe we don't even need the date at all?
10:14 cms eben: i agree--date doesn't seem necessary
10:14 walterbender in the list view, probably not
10:14 eben This is a list of activities for launching....alpha is a logical way to browse them.
10:14 And we don't have dates for items in the other view....groups and neighborhood (once we add the lists there, which I want to put on the table for the next release!)
10:15 cms eben: absolutely--that is the purpose of list view. i think the separation of list and ring/freeform is very effective
10:15 eben So alpha makes sense in those as well, for sure.
10:15 Great. Sounds like that's conclusive, then. Remove the date column entirely, sort by alpha.
10:15 Maybe, for now, we should also label each "version 24" instead of just "24"....
10:16 I know that will be redundant, but at least it would be clear.
10:16 tomeu eben: was easier to get the desired look
10:16 eben Right now those single integer numbers mean nothing.
10:16 cms eben, tomeu: should i add a task?
10:16 tomeu gtk has tree views, which are a bit of a pain to code, and can have sorting headers, yeah
10:17 eben tomeu: gotcha, OK. Because we still have accessibility problems, and other details (sorting on cols) that we'll have to build ourselves...
10:17 tomeu yeah, moving to a treeview would solve those
10:17 eben tomeu: can we embed small canvases into each row, to get the same look, but wrap it in the GTK treeview?
10:17 tomeu I think we could, but then you wouldn't have accessibility inside each row
10:18 eben cms: Discussing the implementation of the list views....good time to consider it, since we plan on adding a number of other lists in the near term now.
10:18 tomeu: That's still a big step in the right direction...
10:18 But point taken...
10:19 Let's not take the technical discussion too far at this point, then.
10:19 Do folks agree with labeling versions "version x"?
10:19 cms sure
10:19 walterbender capital V, please
10:20 eben And would exposing the tagging in the secondary palette be a good thing (more discoverable, easy to access) or a bad thing (since we'd rather force people to use the Journal to do this)?
10:20 walterbender: heh, OK.
10:20 cms eben: tagging seems fine in list view
10:20 eben cms: You mean in the Journal?
10:20 cms eben: in list view
10:21 eben (palettes appear in both views)
10:21 cms: Oh, you mean that each row should have the tags always shown in the list?
10:21 cms eben: let me clarify something: are you imagining that you would have activity references in both list view and the journal?
10:21 eben cms: Yes, naturally. Everything (I think) should live in the Journal.
10:21 cms eben: so the list view in home is a filter of the journal
10:22 eben The list view is an optimization which puts all the activities in one easy to access place.
10:22 cms eben: i think that may potentially be confusing--why can't we separate journal from list view?
10:22 eben That was our thought in designing it, wasn't it?
10:22 cms: Because, activities have to be in the Journal.
10:22 cms eben: i think we were thinking of the two being separate
10:23 eben Otherwise you can't do things with them...like modify them.
10:23 cms eben: the activity instances are, but the "raw" activities are in the Home list view
10:23 eben No no.
10:23 The activity itself...it appears in the Journal when you download it.
10:23 It can be modified with develop; in the future, you could open it with a bundle activity, etc.
10:23 cms eben: why doesn't it appear only in Home list view..?
10:23 eben The activity is a "raw" activity, but it's still just an object.
10:23 cms eben: i see
10:24 eben: i'm recalling our earlier conversations
10:25 eben So I'd actually like to emphasize that...make sure *every* activity (not just those downloaded by the kid) live in the Journal....make them managed (esp. deletion) only in the Journal....the list view is a launcher, but it's not the data store of activities.
10:25 cms eben: that argument is making more sense to me now
10:25 garycmartin eben: +1
10:25 walterbender eben: +1
10:25 cms eben: +1
10:25 eben hooray! :)
10:26 he heh.
10:26 cms #3: Home list view: remove the date column and enable alphabetical sort. Label versions "Version x"
10:26 tomeu heh
10:26 eben So, that brings me back around to the tagging question...and it seems that the answer might be: tagging is done in the Journal.
10:26 cms eben: Well, there i disagree--since categories appear in the Home view, you'd want to manage them there as well
10:27 eben Maybe the solution is to add a "Show in Journal" action to the secondary palette, so it's easy to jump to them to edit details...
10:27 cms: They don't "appear" there, though....they are searchable.
10:27 cms eben: "show in journal" makes sense, but i still think you'd want to tag activities from within the same context of your home view
10:27 eben Home is an interface onto the activities, whereas the data store and management is in the Journal.
10:28 cms it's more intuitive to keep that functionality in one place (though i suppose it could co-exist in the journal)
10:28 eben I'm just playing devils advocate here, though. I was the one offering exposing the tag list in the secondary palette; but I wonder if that dilutes things, the same way that offering management via deletion dilutes things.
10:28 cms i'm thinking more from the standpoint of the user
10:28 eben cms: That's my point!
10:29 tagging already lives in the Journal.
10:29 So we get this "for free" if we use Journal tagging.
10:29 cms eben: right, but again i'm thinking more experientially. as the user, you'd want categorization and filtering to be within the same space
10:29 eben The question is whether or not we pull that feature into the Home view (or the activity palettes) also, I think.
10:29 garycmartin eben: could it be a 'View details' like setup in the home view, 'sliding' off to the right to see the same things as view details from Journal, but with 'back' returning to the home view this time?
10:30 eben garycmartin: That's what I was suggesting with "Show in Journal", yeah.
10:30 cms garycmartin: that's a great idea
10:30 eben cms: I think we might get away with exposing tags in the secondary palette, though....
10:30 the reason is: the palette exists both in Journal, AND in home...
10:30 As long as the palette is consistent, it's not a problem for me.
10:31 It becomes a natural extension.
10:31 cms eben: my only point is that if we are enabling tagging/categorization as a key feature of Home, you should be able to assign categories there as well, not only filter
10:31 i think we should create mockups of this
10:32 eben cms: Is the palette is the place to do it? I think it might work...
10:32 cms eben, can you formalize as a design task?
10:32 eben: yes, i think the palette makes sense
10:32 eben Sure.
10:32 cms eben: though i also liked gary's idea
10:32 eben cms: I think that's a valid addition either way, yeah.
10:32 Oh, oh...
10:32 I see...I misread that before.
10:33 That's an interesting idea.
10:33 But I again wonder if it confuses the list with the Journal again...
10:33 Worth experimenting with.
10:34 cms #4: Design mockups for tagging/filtering/search within Home view
10:34 tomeu, when is the next release scheduled for?
10:34 tomeu cms: in about 6 months from now
10:34 eben #5: Draft changes to activity.info file to support tagging
10:34 tomeu not really scheduled, but is when would be expected
10:35 cms tomeu: how realistic is it to think about a revised groups view (incl. bulletin boards) within that timeframe?
10:35 eben Quick technical question: Is the activity.info file translatable, at present?
10:35 walterbender hopefully we will define a schedule in Paris
10:35 eben We kind of need it to be, for tagging to work.
10:35 tomeu cms: well, depends on the amount of work ;)
10:35 eben cms: I thought Bulletin Boards were an activity, last we talked about them!
10:35 walterbender eben: some fields, such as Activity name get translated
10:35 tomeu eben: only the activity title
10:36 eben OK, but support is there...so we could add more.
10:36 cms: I think we should focus on the chat, actually...
10:36 cms eben: that's right! so we should separate them from groups
10:36 tomeu cms, eben: my opinion right now is that we won't be able to make big changes to the sugar code for 0.86
10:36 cms eben: mesh chat?
10:36 eben Yes....I'm interested in getting activity (and then, once that's perfect, mesh/groups) chat built.
10:37 tomeu because maintaining the current code base is already a substantial amount of work, including a shipped product like soas is
10:37 cms eben: i agree, that's top priority
10:37 tomeu but there are very interesting already underway in the activities space, which is less risky
10:37 walterbender tomeu: let's get the ideas on the table and use Paris to decide what we can actually do
10:37 tomeu yup
10:37 eben And I'm also more interested in making groups "real" (like neighborhood...), and adding list views to groups and neighborhood.
10:38 cms eben: can we list all these items and then discuss their feasibility? i think we've discussed them all before, it would make sense to quickly recap
10:38 eben I think some of these details will solidify the idea of the zoom levels...add consistency and ease of use.
10:39 " polish activity list in Home
10:39 " support filtering/searching via tags in Home
10:40 " add list views to groups/neighorhood
10:40 " make groups dynamic (like neighborhood)
10:40 " extend activity chat
10:40 " add overlay chat to groups/neighborhood
10:41 " design a bulletin-board _activity_
10:41 cms thanks eben!
10:41 which of these points need more design work?
10:41 eben " remove management from activity list, ensure _all_ installed activities are in Joural
10:41 cms off-hand, i would say overlay chat, and the bulletin-board activity
10:42 eben " new toolbar design
10:42 cms: Yup. I agree. Those need the most.
10:42 cms #6: Design mockups for overlay chat in groups/neighborhood
10:43 #7: Design mockups of bulletin board activitiy
10:43 eben (#6 should also include revising the activity chat..which exists but not as earlier designs proposed)
10:44 cms eben: do we have earlier designs that we could fall back on?
10:44 eben list views of groups/neighborhood might need a little design work, for instance to decide how grouping looks (wireless nodes, activities, people, etc.)
10:45 Since there are multiple "types" of objects in those views, we need to do something smarter than just alphabetize them in aggregate, I think.
10:45 cms #8: Design mockups for list views in groups and neighborhood
10:45 eben cms: We do...they involved the "pop-out" messages which related to the right edge of the Frame...
10:46 The current windowed version was meant to be the full-screen manifestation of that transient approach.
10:46 cms let me just quickly confirm: does everyone else know what the list items refer to that eben just posted?
10:46 or should we explain?
10:47 garycmartin overlay chat is new to me, I have seen the bubble chat from right frame, but not overlay.
10:47 tomeu I know what they refer to, but we need mockups to know what are you heading to
10:47 eben Basic summary: we have a list view in Home now. We want to have list views in groups and neighborhood as well. This will make things consistent, and offer both scalability and accessibility (eventually) to all the zoom levels.
10:48 garycmartin: We haven't produced any overlay chat proposals, recently. We had some rough mockups very early on (3? years ago)...
10:49 cms gary: overlay chat needs to be detailed, but basically the idea was for a contextual chat in neighborhood/groups
10:49 eben: has it been that long?!
10:49 garycmartin OK, yea that's what I though.
10:50 Reminds me of the concept of Chat Circles (MIT?)
10:50 cms gary: yes, very similar. we referenced that work when we were thinking about the design
10:50 garycmartin cms: cool
10:51 cms great--well i think this was a good meeting to recap all of the pending design issues
10:51 i'm going to have to jump off pretty soon, but before i do, wondering if we could recap all of the points and figure out who can work on what
10:52 eben I think it's going to take at least a couple of weeks to pull together designs for the discussed areas...
10:52 cms yes.
10:52 eben So we should try to loosely address a schedule as we recap.
10:52 cms maybe we should focus on several at a time
10:52 ok
10:52 walterbender can I raise one last topic? keyboard shortcuts?
10:53 tomeu oh, that's a good one
10:53 walterbender can we add shortcut hints to the view buttons?
10:53 F1 F2 F3 F4?
10:53 cms walterbender: good idea, that would help
10:53 walterbender it may help with discovery on non-XO machines
10:53 eben makes sense, yeah.
10:53 How ubiquitous are shortcuts, these days?
10:54 Nearly every button should have one, really. Both in the OS, and in activities.
10:54 walterbender eben: It is easy to add them to toolbar buttons...
10:54 tomeu it's also easy to add them to menuitems and tooltips
10:54 eben walterbender: Right. I just wonder how many activity devs have added support for it....since it was broken for so long.
10:55 Right...menu items also. Absolutely.
10:55 garycmartin eben: labyrinth has them :-)
10:55 eben In any case, we should make a push for all activities to support them, if they don't already. :)
10:55 tomeu eben: we cannot wait for activity authors to implement it by themselves, we'll need to make a concerted effort and push for it
10:55 including guidelines
10:55 eben tomeu: right
10:55 tomeu right ;)
10:56 garycmartin tomeu: BTW any hint on using + and - as accelerators, the api didn't let me use then for zoom in and zoom out :-(
10:57 tomeu garycmartin: dunno, but should be possible
10:57 let's see what evince has
10:57 evince uses ctrl++ and ctrl+-
10:57 garycmartin tomeu: no rush just thought I'd mention it, the activity toolbar was only working with letters on numbers for me.
10:58 walterbender garycmartin: maybe the activity team could organize weekly tutorials on some development tidbit each week on IRC
10:58 garycmartin: the first one could be on adding keyboard shortcuts
10:58 sort of a realtime almanac
10:58 garycmartin walterbender: Nice idea, someone would have to teach me first, perhaps make it a peer shaing type thing :-)
10:58 eben walterbender: that's a pretty excellent idea
10:59 walterbender garycmartin: little, bites-ized topics...
10:59 garycmartin: since I figured it out for TurtleArt, happy to lead that discussion...
11:00 garycmartin: and someone else can help me with how to close a gplay window :)
11:00 tomeu nice
11:00 garycmartin walterbender: I'm too slow for realtime, my time is with my head stuck in the api docs and breaking stuff till it works (or not)
11:01 walterbender: (but a great idea worth a try).
11:02 walterbender garycmartin: I'll try it this week some time...
11:03 cms tomeu: with the list of high-level features that eben posted, do you have enough info to be able to prioritize in terms of a development schedule? or do you need design mockups first in order to do that?
11:04 tomeu cms: not really mockups, but we need to have an idea of what amount of work will tkae
11:04 cms when is paris happening?
11:04 tomeu but mockups help visualize the goals
11:04 walterbender is going to have to take off in a minute... back in a couple of hours
11:04 tomeu cms: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/M[…]niCamp_Paris_2009
11:05 cms thanks for joining walter!
11:05 walterbender cms: off topic: did you get the USB key I sent?
11:05 cms walterbender: not yet, but i did get three sticks from caroline
11:05 walterbender cms: I sent them to Pentagram
11:05 ^them^it
11:05 cms walterbender: great, thanks so much. i'll check my mailbox on monday
11:05 walterbender says thanks to all and bye for now
11:06 tomeu cheers!
11:06 cms walterbender: talk to you later!
11:06 thanks for the link tomeu
11:06 tomeu cms: planning to attend? ;)
11:07 cms tomeu: i'd love to, but no funds...
11:07 tomeu btw, marco may join us in paris: http://www.marcopg.org/2009/04/18/heartbeat/
11:07 cms: yeah, we need to get a sponsor quickly
11:07 cms tomeu: let me know if you do find someone willing to pay travel expenses etc.
11:08 so marco is still with us? haven't heard from him in a while
11:08 tomeu cms: people are working on it, I tihnk walterbender and dfarning
11:08 cms: he changed jobs (and countries) and had 2 crazy months
11:09 cms tomeu: i heard... eben and marco are now working together... again! ;)
11:09 tomeu cms: btw, I think pentagram works with litl?
11:09 cms tomeu: yes! it's a small world
11:09 tomeu eben: you are working for litl?
11:09 heh
11:09 garycmartin is it endmeeting time?
11:09 tomeu yeah, you all are in a small world indeed :p
11:09 eben tomeu: yup
11:09 cms before we end:
11:09 tomeu eben: congrats, looks like fun
11:10 cms i was going to suggest that we work on the design mockups in time for the paris meeting
11:10 that gives us about four weeks
11:10 tomeu in a not so far future, the sugar shell may be rewritten in js, to reuse all the work going into gnome 3.0 and litl's stuff
11:10 cms and it would help us create a development schedule during sugarcamp
11:10 tomeu cms: that would be awesome
11:11 cms my only issue is that i'm finishing teaching in two weeks
11:11 after that, i'll be free to work on these mockups
11:11 eben, how is your schedule looking?
11:11 eben cms: decent
11:11 I have some spare time.
11:12 cms great--maybe you could get a headstart with some of these comps, and i'll pitch in one my course ends?
11:13 maybe we can present them in advance of sugarcamp, or even during, remotely
11:14 eben Yeah, that sounds good
11:15 cms excellent
11:15 thanks everyone for a productive meeting today!
11:15 any last thoughts, or should we break?
11:16 i'll post a recap to the wiki
11:17 garycmartin cms: thanks for the meeting, covered good ground!
11:17 eben bye all!
11:17 cms talk to you soon!
11:17 #endmeeting

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