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#sugar-meeting, 2009-04-14

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Time Nick Message
11:02 SeanDaly OK everyone sorry for the very late reminder although i did manage to benefit from F. Grose's excellent instructions on how to do that
11:02 caroline yes it was a great reminder!
11:03 jt4sugar Congrats Walter and Caroline on FOSS VT Success
11:03 caroline I love the google calendar attachment that does time zones
11:03 congrats to us all on that!
11:03 SeanDaly I'm still under the weather and many loose ends but I agree with Caroline that we should discuss how to PR new SoaS beta
11:03 walterbender sdziallas is the one who deserves the kudos
11:03 SeanDaly Yes congrats!! sorry I missed it!!
11:03 caroline yes amazing job
11:03 walterbender SeanDaly: I just send an email to Mossberg giving him a heads up
11:03 caroline Sean there will be many more
11:03 sdziallas erikos and tomeu did a great job on fixing all the stuff, too :)
11:03 SeanDaly walterbender: OK great
11:04 caroline So how to we get the world to come try it?
11:05 SeanDaly I think a press release is in order but I'd like to plan it & not rush it (if such a thing is possible :D )
11:05 tomeu is listening
11:05 SeanDaly: which would be the goals of a press release?
11:06 SeanDaly Hi tomeu the idea is actually building a house
11:06 Adding a nice big brick every 4-6 weeks
11:06 building awareness
11:06 tomeu sounds fun
11:06 SeanDaly So, PR on March 16th for v0.84
11:06 PR in mid-April for first beta
11:06 tomeu so the next press release is about "we are here and keep doing good stuff"?
11:06 SeanDaly PR in mid-May for Paris event
11:07 caroline My goal is people creating the sticks and trying it.
11:07 SeanDaly PR in JJune for LinuxTag
11:07 caroline I'd love to focus on more kid centered events but I like the time line
11:07 walterbender caroline: great news re gould...
11:07 SeanDaly For this press release I'd like to amplify what we said at the end of the last press release: testers
11:07 caroline yup :)
11:08 sdziallas I was just typing to suggest that. I totally agree. :)
11:08 SeanDaly A concern I have is feedback... I'm a dummy and still don't know how to file a bug
11:08 caroline Do we want to hang this release against an event?
11:08 this press release?
11:09 SeanDaly Not necessarily... we originally planned to link to FOSSVT but took I think the right decision to hold off a little
11:09 sdziallas points to: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]/Getting_Involved
11:09 caroline I like the idea of talking about YMCA Healthy Kids day because its kid focused and YMCA is great name recognition.
11:09 its also local so we coul potentially get picked up by the Boston Globe.
11:09 sdziallas we don't necessarily need bugs. I appreciate tickets, but if people put their results in the wiki, I'm fine with that, too (for now). ;)
11:10 SeanDaly An ideal event is a big one but a small one can work
11:10 caroline Is writing a press release about this Saturdays Healthy Kids Day feasible? Is it a good idea?
11:10 SeanDaly What's potentially tricky about the Y is "look, we tested with a ragtag pile of old busted-up puters"
11:11 caroline Sean, you say that like its not a good thing.
11:11 SeanDaly :D to be clear:
11:12 I think it's great we can boot Sugar on miscellaneous mismatched hardware
11:12 But if I was at the Y, I wouldn't appreciate that characterization at all
11:12 caroline how about this message. Sugar Labs released SoaS-Beta. We celebrated by using it at the local YMCA Healthy Kids Day.
11:12 sdziallas well, do we need to put a focus on the hardware in the press release?
11:12 SeanDaly Coat-tailing on Healthy Kids Day can work but we need the Y to agree to that in my opinion
11:13 sdziallas caroline: that's what I meant :) in that direction.
11:13 SeanDaly caroline: yes, much better I think a way to do it is:
11:13 caroline I agree, lets not go into too much detail in the press release about he hardware, lets focus on the kids and the release.
11:14 jt4sugar If Saturday goes well then a Press Release-Would help Y if people knew Computers were usable again with Great Education software
11:14 caroline We can talk abou thow the Y does child care, after school and vacation camps and maybe our vision of connecting home, school and afterschool programs like the Y.
11:14 SeanDaly "We are releasing the beta and with the cooperation of our local YMCA on healthy Kids Day, let it loose on some kids!"
11:14 caroline I want the focus to be on kids and our end vision for education, then the geeks can come explore our site for geekier info.
11:14 SeanDaly If we talk about the Y we need their cooperation/approval
11:15 I think it's doable if low-key
11:15 caroline I spoke briefly to the excutive director but you are right  we need to do that.
11:15 They are enthusiastic
11:15 SeanDaly Or, put another way: as a journalist...
11:15 caroline what woudl the time line be?
11:15 SeanDaly SoaS at one YMCA= not news
11:15 SoaS for Healthy Kids Day at 200 YMCA= news
11:15 caroline Sean, so true, but we aren't there yet.
11:16 so SoaS-Beta =? News
11:16 sdziallas loves news :)
11:16 SeanDaly Quite, so rather than market Healthy Kids Day we can market SoaS and mention the friendly participation of the Y for Healthy Kids Day with a link
11:16 caroline yes
11:16 SeanDaly Yes! SoaS beta= news
11:17 hopefully, anyway
11:17 caroline ok and celbrating with kids at the Y shows our values and vision.
11:17 SeanDaly caroline: yes, and idealy some photos
11:17 caroline and gives us an event. Should we talk about FOSSVT too? to show our values of workign with educatiors?
11:18 SeanDaly yes we should say "distributed to educators at the FOSSVT conference"
11:18 with a link
11:18 caroline I put a call out for photographers and videographers no takers yet.
11:18 Sounds perfect to me.
11:18 When should we plan on putting it out?
11:18 mchua waves shyly, trying to keep up with reading logs even if I'm quiet
11:18 xobot mchua: by the way, iwikiwi told me to tell you 'check this proposal when she comes online : http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/USpeak and tell mavu_ what she thinks' 14 days, 3 hours, 13 minutes and 9 seconds ago (on Tue Mar 31 14:05:12 2009)
11:19 SeanDaly reminder, I am sitting on photo image release text will look at it asap
11:19 waves to mchua
11:19 sdziallas mchua: hey :)
11:19 SeanDaly There remains an image problem at OLPC which impacts us
11:19 mchua SeanDaly: the olpc
11:19 SeanDaly: the olpc == sl thing?
11:19 caroline is there anythign we can do about that in this press release?
11:20 SeanDaly By publishing good news every month or so leading up to SoaS v1.0 we get away from negative image impact
11:20 caroline what date should we aim for getting this next release out?
11:20 sdziallas caroline: you mean another soas release?
11:20 SeanDaly I'd like to say early next week after we have some Y photos available....
11:20 caroline what date should we aim for getting this next press release out?
11:21 sdziallas heh. ;)
11:21 SeanDaly however I should mention I will be on family vacation in the UK next week with limited access to th eNet
11:21 caroline Do we want to go for sooner and not use Y pictures, use Mike Lee's pictures?
11:22 SeanDaly We could go eReleases/PR Newswire but to get earlybird discount need to be 3 business days before publication morning
11:22 sdziallas we could turn it to 'SoaS has been successfully premiered at FOSSVT...'
11:22 SeanDaly I think there are some great photos in Mike's sets and he has promised to do some more if he can round up some more kids
11:23 sdziallas: yes, if we qualify "success"
11:23 caroline Sean, what date do yout  hink will work for your schedule?
11:23 lets pick a date then see what news we have that fits it :)
11:24 SeanDaly I like Tuesday or Wednesday because 1) we can get press release done 2) we can choose best Mike Lee/Y photos
11:24 jt4sugar When Release goes out we should have Tester survey in place to capture feedback
11:24 caroline 21st or 22nd?
11:24 SeanDaly Keep in mind the press release photo has to be submitted 3 days before
11:25 yes 21nd or 23rd
11:25 sdziallas bernie, walterbender: how about susing urvey.sl.o?
11:25 SeanDaly jt4sugar: totally agree
11:25 caroline ok so we can talk about the Y but we'll use Mike Lee's photos.
11:25 SeanDaly In fact I think obtaining feedback should be an important goal of this press release
11:25 caroline if we can we'll get video for a youtuber on the Y day but that will be for later.
11:26 SeanDaly caroline: yes, and if we have Y photos we can blog etc.
11:26 sdziallas let people mail their experience to IAEP, that's the least we can suggest...
11:26 caroline agreed. Its not a very pretty room. I don't think the photos will be that great.
11:26 or feedback@sugarlabs.org and we can redirect it to volunteers to compile it.
11:26 SeanDaly sdziallas: need to join mailing list first though?
11:27 I like feedback@sugarlabs.org much better
11:27 Now, if only there were some way to identify beta build and hardware
11:27 caroline we could ever redirect it straight to iaep for now if we don't get too much volume
11:27 sdziallas SeanDaly: if we could propagate and get the messages from there, yeah.
11:27 bernie sdziallas: I've not paid attention to it since when I installed it. are people using it? does it work well?
11:28 sdziallas SeanDaly: there *is* way. it's documented.
11:28 jt4sugar If teachers are going to take time- a Get to know Sugar/Test these features checklist/survey and report is important
11:28 sdziallas bernie: last time I check I got some error or so. maybe we could use it for feedback on soas...?
11:28 SeanDaly Today I'm a bit frustrated because I don't know how to submit any feedback
11:29 tomeu SeanDaly: you are already submitting feedback ;)
11:29 sdziallas SeanDaly: here it's stated how to find the version number, if not in the file name: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]#Help_the_project
11:29 tomeu SeanDaly: if I ask you to file a ticket and point you to http://dev.sugarlabs.org , is that enough?
11:30 bernie sdziallas: I also recommend http://selectricity.org/ . we used it to run the first slobs election.
11:30 tomeu maybe we should build better tools, but for now what we can do is providing better isntructions
11:30 SeanDaly tomeu: nope. last time I went there, first thing I saw was "please read the doc" I followed the link to bkank page :-(
11:30 bernie sdziallas: and it's run by mako, a friend who's also a member of the fsf
11:30 tomeu goes look
11:31 sdziallas bernie: that looks interesting :)
11:31 tomeu SeanDaly: it got killed during the camelcase process
11:31 will fix now
11:31 SeanDaly very possible, but I still have no idea how to submit a bug
11:32 jt4sugar tomeu: I don't think so-If we want Great feedback from Teachers must have straightforward very simple way-There time is precious
11:32 sdziallas bernie: maybe we can combine this with feedback@sl.o or so...
11:32 SeanDaly jt4sugar is right - what is necessary is an extremely simple webform
11:32 tomeu jt4sugar, SeanDaly: but someone needs to do it
11:32 SeanDaly ideally, a webform which generates a mail to feedback@sugarlabs.org
11:32 sdziallas okay, I guess we need to differenciate the following:
11:33 SeanDaly i was looking at Survey Monkey
11:33 sdziallas * report bugs in form of 'this and that doesn't work, here's the traceback'
11:33 tomeu SeanDaly, jt4sugar: php may be the most common skill found in sw development, maybe you could get someone involved in such a simple task?
11:33 sdziallas * feedback from teachers who're probably more writing up an e-mail with their thoughts or so
11:33 bernie SeanDaly: who's gonna read feedback@?
11:33 SeanDaly sdziallas: do teachers know what a traceback is?
11:33 tomeu if core developers keep taking all and every task, we are never going to scale
11:34 sdziallas SeanDaly: that's why I see two groups here. I'm not saying they know that. but developers who know that are also filing bugs.
11:34 SeanDaly bernie: we need to filter/sort/connect those mails to official bug tracking system
11:34 mchua SeanDaly: Survey Monkey has a limited # of users - you can only capture so many responses (on the order of 200 I think)
11:34 caroline I think we send feedback to the list for a while then we ask for volunteers
11:34 bernie SeanDaly: no, but we need it for debugging. we should have a wiki page explaining how to copy-paste it in a bug report
11:34 SeanDaly mchua: for free version, paid version much higher
11:34 bernie SeanDaly: fedora has something like this. almost easy enough for the casual user
11:35 caroline bernie, I have not found putting in bug reports for fedora at all easy.
11:35 mchua bernie: SeanDaly: I'm happy to read feedback; I used to do ethnographic data coding so can take qualitative answers too. I can handwrite out conclusions and scan or pass them to caroline or others in boston for typing to everyone else.
11:35 remains useless on computers for a while
11:35 bernie SeanDaly: a human being in the middle seems to be only way to reduce bogus reports.
11:36 SeanDaly Also, (speculation) it is quite possible teacher feedback will reveal most difficult blockers outside Sugar e.g. loading stick or setting BIOS
11:36 bernie: I quite agree,
11:36 bernie caroline: it might be boring (lots of steps), but it's quite a guided procedure.  developers point users at further instructions as needed (how to get a traceback, how to install debuginfo...)
11:36 SeanDaly but there are shortcuts: first is to lower feedback response expectations:
11:36 caroline We need to not overset expecations about what they get for free.
11:37 SeanDaly "thanks for your feedback which is important, but we cannot answer every message individually"
11:37 bernie SeanDaly: hehe ;-)
11:37 SeanDaly second shortcut is to limit problems in message title by type
11:37 caroline emphases that ists a volunteer project and use our autoresponder as a chance to ask for volunteers
11:37 mchua caroline: if I came to the y one day with a notebook to interview users for feedback, and left the notebook with you folks to type, would that help?
11:37 SeanDaly caroline: yes
11:38 caroline mel, on Saturday it will be crowded. I think we can observe the feedback.
11:38 SeanDaly third shortcut is to attempt to classify mails by keyword filters
11:38 caroline If we engage with them over April vacation week then volunteers can collect feedback by observation and interview.
11:38 jt4sugar If we have checklist of what developers are looking for it will shape testing process. Do steps 1.2.3.4 did it work?
11:39 SeanDaly Put another way: if we get 100 e-mails in a week we will learn quickly what blockers are (and if feedback reporting is usable)
11:39 caroline but really we want more then technical feedback.
11:39 mchua caroline: I was talking about april vacation week and getting nontechnical feedback, actually
11:39 SeanDaly caroline: in fact global feedback will be very valuable
11:40 By the way we can take easy feedback from teachers, but always indicate that official bugtracker is available for geeks
11:41 sdziallas SeanDaly: that's what I meant with the two groups. A geek will know how to file a bug.
11:41 SeanDaly jt4sugar: how about existing smoke test?
11:41 sdziallas SeanDaly: and for the teachers, we need a way to get their feedback
11:41 SeanDaly sdziallas: I don't see any way except webform/e-mail and sorting it out in the back room
11:42 sdziallas SeanDaly: yup. that's what we'll end up with.
11:42 well, it could be e-mailed to IAEP, but that's probably more complicated and would flood the mailing list.
11:42 caroline I think a simple feedback@sugarlabs.org but put some thought into what the auto responder says and ask for what we want in that.
11:42 SeanDaly But, as I say, use shortcuts and it remains manageable
11:42 jt4sugar SeanDaly: I think a clearly laid out step by step process that 50yr old teacher could follow is whats needed-smoke test to technical for most newbies
11:43 SeanDaly It is vitally important in my view that feedback be ridiculously simple for a teacher to send
11:43 caroline I don't know that we want teachers doing smoke tests. Really if it boots we get pretty similar results from hardware to hardware right now right?
11:43 SeanDaly survey.sugarlabs.org down
11:43 caroline I want teachers exploring and seeing the possiblities not being robots smoke testing.
11:44 SeanDaly caroline: good point
11:44 sdziallas caroline: +1
11:44 caroline so if we have a script for them it should be one designed to assist them in exploration.
11:44 SeanDaly But, remember many will be disoriented
11:44 caroline which we probably do want, as your first 2 minutes on Sugar are frustratating.
11:44 jt4sugar caroline: Yes-I think most testers would appreciate a process that let them get to know sugar and be able to report the experience
11:44 SeanDaly Yes a little list of things to try would be great
11:44 caroline We probably want a YouTube for it too.
11:45 tomeu in 0.82, we used to ship the help activity
11:45 youtube++
11:45 SeanDaly I wonder if I have a gadget that can convert VGA out to PAL video?
11:46 Or some other screen codec
11:46 tomeu there's an activity from cjb that generates screencasts, btw
11:46 s/from/by
11:46 SeanDaly here's a concern: i think we can agree that more than a few days are necessary to set up teacher feedback
11:47 caroline Sean, no I dont agree.
11:47 SeanDaly But, I think links & e-mail for feedback should be part of press release?
11:47 caroline I think setting up feedback@sg.org gives us the ability to change what we do for feedback in a very agile manner.
11:47 sdziallas well, setting up feedback@sugarlabs.org shouldn't take too long, I suppose.
11:48 SeanDaly caroline: I agree that's a very "lithe" way to start
11:48 caroline I don;t think we shoudl make that a blocker for the PR April 21-23.
11:48 sdziallas caroline: I agree.
11:48 SeanDaly now comes the hard part: which elves sit in the back room and pore over those mails
11:49 caroline tomeu, if you could write up how to do the screenshot activity we can ask for a volunteer on the list.
11:49 Sean, first week we dump it all to IAEP. If we get overwhelmed we come up with some elves.
11:49 SeanDaly Alternatively, do we forward mails to an alias?
11:49 caroline: sounds good
11:49 tomeu caroline: the activity is done, AFAIK
11:50 caroline tomue, askig for a 3 line email telling me the name of it and where to get it and where instructions on how to use it are.
11:50 tomeu cjb might comment later today
11:50 sdziallas I don't mind having a look at the e-mails from time to time, but I'll have less time to dedicate from the next week on as school starts again.
11:50 tomeu oh, ok
11:50 SeanDaly For the press release text: I'd like to write it together with y'all
11:50 caroline and we need to have it done far enough in advance to clear with the y.
11:51 SeanDaly Which can show you how the windmills of my mind work in spin doctor mode :D
11:51 sdziallas ;)
11:51 SeanDaly So... is 24 hours too tight to get press release text done? or 48 better?
11:52 caroline Sean what do we need to do?
11:52 SeanDaly working back from Wednesday 22nd... means press release needs to be with eReleases by Thursday evening this week
11:53 including photo
11:53 sdziallas Cambridge, MA. Sugar Labs announces... "hey, I did my part" ;)
11:53 SeanDaly sdziallas :D :D
11:53 tomeu caroline: http://lists.laptop.org/piperm[…]tober/000540.html
11:53 caroline: I'm not sure if instructions exist :(
11:54 SeanDaly Caroline: by the way I would like to quote you as well as Walter in this PR since focus is SoaS and you presented at FOSSVT
11:54 jt4sugar mchua: You ready to become a Youtube star-Bug reporting, setting up Sugar Virtual Box, Burning Soas, Screenshot activity?
11:54 caroline ok, can you help me draft an email to the list looking for a vollenter
11:54 Sean definitely! Just let me knwo what I say :)
11:55 Do you want us to find any teachers from the conference to quote?
11:56 SeanDaly The usual way that works is like this: "Caroline the Magnificent, Sugar on aStick project manager, coommented 'we invite teachers to download and test Sugar today, put it in front of kids and tell us about their experience at feedback@sugarlabs.org'"
11:56 caroline sounds good
11:56 mchua jt4sugar: if it doesn't involve me typing... though there are folks here who are way better actors.
11:57 SeanDaly caroline: if you know teachers who are excited about Sugar and won't conttradict themselves when contacted by journos :-)
11:57 caroline can I get Solution Grove in there?
11:57 Definitley there were 2 who woudl be good bets.
11:57 SeanDaly caroline: sure, "C.M. of Solution Grove, SoaS project manager, ..."
11:58 walterbender caroline: playing with a few choice activities...
11:58 caroline hopefully SG will be providing stick backup and collaboration services within a month or so. Not that we put that in this release but I should work on thename recognition.
11:58 jt4sugar mchua: If you can get a little help from OLPC-boston I think you talking through steps would be great-It would help me at least!
11:59 caroline maybe Mike Lee will do our 2 minute start exploring with SoaS video for us.
11:59 SeanDaly What's the best way to work on the press release text together?
11:59 walterbender caroline: I met with Evangeline yesterday
11:59 SeanDaly Write through jabber?
11:59 the wiki?
11:59 caroline walterbender, Excellent! what is she up to?
11:59 Sean, Google Docs?
11:59 SeanDaly the marketing list?
12:00 yes G Docs might be aggod plan
12:00 aggod -> a good
12:00 sdziallas +1
12:00 walterbender caroline: they have been using Sugar in schools... a teacher-oriented experience
12:00 SeanDaly naive question can we put up a doc several of us can edit which is not Internet-facing?
12:01 caroline walterbender - Wow! How? on what hardwere, where?
12:01 SeanDaly A press release ain't news if it is readable somewhere especially in draft form :-(
12:01 caroline Sean yes, you can restrict who can see it.
12:01 walterbender OLPC XOs in a Boston charter school...
12:01 small scale, but nice work, nonetheless
12:01 jt4sugar walterbender: Were you able to get Evangeline a few more XO's
12:01 caroline wow, very cool.
12:02 how many XOs does she have?
12:02 is she using turtle portfolio?
12:02 sdziallas SeanDaly: I guess Google Docs allows you to invite people
12:03 SeanDaly ok i'm clicking on GDocs from SL acct
12:03 sdziallas really likes our SL accounts...
12:03 walterbender jt4sugar: I gave her 2 more machines...
12:04 jt4sugar walterbender: Awesome
12:04 walterbender caroline: back to the point I was trying to make...
12:04 we should have teachers explore no more than 4-5 activities to start...
12:04 caroline at most!
12:05 I think our intro video should show the neighborhood, 2 activies and the journal.
12:05 maybe turtle art and write showing collaboration.
12:05 walterbender and perhaps browse, TA, memorize, write and the journal
12:06 caroline yeah we need browse you are correct.
12:06 walterbender things that go beyond games and worksheets
12:06 caroline we want just enough to take the edge off the frustration.
12:06 sdziallas infoslicer will be too much for the beginning, right?
12:06 walterbender sdziallas: I think it would be part of the second wave
12:06 caroline we can do more vidoes on different activities
12:06 sdziallas (I just love that concept. It's really impressive. And it could be combined with Browse.)
12:07 caroline we need a gettng started one that is super simple.
12:07 sdziallas yeah, right!
12:07 SeanDaly OK i have just attempted to invite marketing list to edit press release at http://docs.google.com/a/sugar[…]invite=1784178336
12:07 walterbender SeanDaly: pretty terse draft :)
12:07 SeanDaly others should be able to edit too if sl.o addresses I think
12:07 jt4sugar espeak and typing turtle would be beneficial to show literacy aspects
12:07 sdziallas goes clicking
12:07 SeanDaly walterbender: yes, it's ultra ultra concise for the moment :D
12:09 mchua rsi ration done for the day. *waves*
12:09 SeanDaly OK everyone I need to leave soon are we OK for 1) press release by this Thursday afternoon 2) feedback@sugarlabs.org forwarded to IAEP for at least the first week 3) release on Wednesday, April 22nd?
12:10 sdziallas nods
12:10 (...and wonders about the technical details for the release for April 22nd)
12:10 caroline sdz press release
12:11 SeanDaly sdziallas: yes *press* release
12:11 sdziallas caroline: yeah, right. but we won't stop development now, will we?
12:12 caroline: so we need a policy of how to deal with changes, what to use as a base environment, on so on and forth.
12:12 caroline no, but no need to try to sync it up, except to be extra sure its a stable beta on the days after the pres release
12:12 SeanDaly Oh one final thing I wanted to call this "beta-1", implying there will be a "beta-2" and reinforcing our PR that we need feedback
12:12 Anyone see a problem with that?
12:12 caroline Sean +1
12:12 sdziallas fine with me.
12:12 caroline Sdz, maybe we shold schedule a SoaS technical meeting
12:12 sdziallas caroline: yup, I agree.
12:12 I'd like to get erikos here, too.
12:13 SeanDaly ok i'm ready to end marketing meeting glad you can't hear me sneezing
12:13 sdziallas has got to run for ten minutes, dinner.
12:13 heh :)
12:13 get well soon!
12:13 caroline great meeting thanks!
12:13 SeanDaly #endmeeting

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