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#sugar-meeting, 2009-04-07

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Time Nick Message
10:02 SeanDaly First off I apologize for falling behind with meeting minutes & agenda
10:02 I've been extremely occupied (but.. getting things done too :-)
10:03 I want to discuss first SoaS beta launch at FOSSVT, ok?
10:03 sdziallas is here, too
10:03 SeanDaly: +1, I guess that's our most important point now
10:04 caroline I'm ready :)
10:04 SeanDaly I originally planned to do eReleases/PR Newswire
10:04 Right now I am concerned if image is stable enough...
10:05 caroline how do you feel?
10:05 caroline whats the downside if we do a press release
10:05 Based on my experience at the Y and random guessing i think 50% of the people will be able to get Sugar on their PCs at the conference.
10:05 SeanDaly I'm concerned about negative press - a journalist who downloads an image & can't get it to work
10:05 caroline maybe 75% of PCs but many people will have macs.
10:06 lots of people are not getting it to work yet
10:06 sdziallas as I pointed out, it needs to be marked as a beta release. which is how I'd describe its current state.
10:06 caroline I feel like 25% of people get it to work when they download it.
10:06 SeanDaly VirtualBox instructions worked like a charm on my Mac
10:06 caroline They aren't working for the latest version for Dave
10:06 I haven't tried it yet.
10:06 Sean, which version?
10:06 SeanDaly sdziallas: Could we call it "beta-1" ?
10:06 caroline which snapshots?
10:07 sdziallas it clearly depends on which hardware you're running it. and as we're using F11 beta as a base system, it should be as good as Fedora's beta release.
10:07 SeanDaly caroline: I have to check at home but an old SoaS-2 I think
10:07 caroline our next pressable event will be April 17th Healthy Kids Day at the Y.
10:07 The current SoaS2 is not working on the mac
10:07 sdziallas SeanDaly: well, we could, but... hm!
10:07 SeanDaly sdziallas: downside?
10:07 tomeu SeanDaly: if the problem is with getting the image copied to the media, perhaps we should team up with ondisk for now?
10:08 SeanDaly tomeu: I really like the idea
10:08 tomeu and advertise the do-it-yourself instructions as for adventurious?
10:08 caroline I think thats definitley worth a try.
10:08 sdziallas SeanDaly: the next big release would be LinuxTag, I think; so I'd be targeting that for a Release Candidate.
10:08 SeanDaly tomeu:+1
10:08 caroline SolutionGrove will also be creating a similar service, hopefully wiht Resigartion, collaboration and File backup bundled in at a higher price point.
10:08 but not till we can get said services to actually work!
10:09 SeanDaly sdziallas: we will have another opportunity: an event in May and (if it's in Paris) we can probably get a lot of press
10:09 caroline Sean, can we do a press release that gets us attention without the expectation that they can download and try it yet?
10:09 tomeu caroline: yeah, I think that's quite different from just selling preloaded media
10:09 different products
10:09 SeanDaly caroline: sure, but then... what's the news? :-)
10:09 caroline toneu, yes, very different
10:09 sdziallas SeanDaly: that's right, so you mean we could have a second beta there?
10:09 caroline How about Healthy Kids Day at the Y?
10:09 is that too small?
10:10 SeanDaly sdziallas: yes, that's what I was thinking... build up to the RC
10:10 walterbender chiming in late
10:10 SeanDaly caroline: not necessarily... I recorded Richard Stallman at ULB in Brussels in front of a crowd of 15 people, but thousands listened to the audio and read the transcript
10:11 walterbender I am wondering if I should send this version to Walt Mossberg?
10:11 sdziallas hrms!
10:11 walterbender he asked for the beta and will write about it...
10:11 SeanDaly I feel... if it's still unstable... our comm needs to be: "not ready yet, help us make it better"
10:11 walterbender we could explain to him that we cannot cover every machine...
10:12 sdziallas SeanDaly: agreed. obviously, because it's a beta.
10:12 walterbender so the question is, in my mind, not so much which machines work, but when they work, how well do they work?
10:12 SeanDaly walterbender: we should by all means brief him on where we are... he might decide himself to wait
10:12 sdziallas walterbender: well, let me put it this way:
10:12 caroline I agree this is a when, we are making great progress
10:13 SeanDaly walterbender: it would be great if we could get him a branded stick that would boot
10:13 caroline Maybe we should use FOSSVT as an experiement, see how many people have positive experiences.
10:13 walterbender two branded sticks so he can collaborate!!
10:13 caroline then we can decide whether to promot it.
10:13 SeanDaly walterbender: +1! with 2 colors logos
10:13 sdziallas in my opinion, we should use FOSSVT to get the attention, but also the testers we need.
10:14 walterbender sdziallas: +1
10:14 SeanDaly caroline: Actually, my "dream & ambition" is to use a FOSSVT launch to make feedback VERY easy
10:14 tomeu if we could get someone from fedora to contribute some time to guide people like caroline in filing bug reports about hardware not booting, that may make the range of hardware soas works on much bigger when F11 is out
10:14 walterbender my onl real worry re Mossberg is that he'll try on a Mac.
10:14 caroline so the question on the table is "Do we write the Release Press Statement for FOSSVT or do we wait" Is that correct?
10:14 sdziallas and for that, we need a fitting press release. clearly stating that it's beta. but I believe we shouldn't hide anything, because soas-2 looks pretty well imo. If you try to run it on a C64, it won't work, but I hope not to see a bug report on that.
10:14 walterbender wait
10:14 SeanDaly I myself need guidance on how to file a bug report :-(
10:15 I very much want to but I'm not even sure how to go about it?
10:15 tomeu walterbender: can you get to know which exact model he has? ;)
10:15 SeanDaly: we basically need to set some time aside to go with someone without that experience and write some docs
10:16 SeanDaly walterbender: If my netbooks weren't azerty keyboard I would just loan him one with a stick
10:16 walterbender tomeu: I can ask him. Also, I am sure he can get ahold of some machines it will work on
10:16 tomeu setting time aside is the part I personally have problems with ;)
10:16 SeanDaly tomeu: I know that problem :-)
10:16 Here's an idea: Survey Monkey
10:16 caroline Google Forms
10:16 walterbender maybe the plan is that if Friday is not a complete disaster--no reason to expect it will be--I'll send Mossberg some sticks on Monday...
10:17 caroline can we back up? what are we trying to decie right now?
10:17 SeanDaly A link, some questions..
10:17 caroline or are we brainstorming?
10:17 walterbender we also have survey.sl.o
10:17 SeanDaly caroline: yes I'm wondering how big a splash we should aim for Friday
10:17 jt4sugar Will there be some type of testing guide and reporting mechanism for SoaS recipients-How to use-What their using it on
10:17 walterbender Pablo and I are finally going to get the Uruguay survey out the door
10:18 sdziallas there are even instructions in the wiki, regarding testing
10:18 SeanDaly walterbender: that page not opening PHP err
10:18 sdziallas: you mean the Smoke Test?
10:18 sdziallas I already went through the soas pages, to get them in a better shape, and was planning to write up release notes, which mention exactly what can be done.
10:18 walterbender SeanDaly: I check.
10:18 caroline Ok so the question is do we splash on Friday or do we see how friday goes, fix problems then try again to splash on next Sat?
10:18 SeanDaly caroline: precisely
10:19 walterbender I think we do a shakedown on Friday
10:19 and a splash the following week...
10:19 caroline I think so too
10:19 we are close
10:19 SeanDaly I feel iffy about Friday
10:19 walterbender with Mossberg in between
10:19 caroline but its not clear to me we are there yet
10:19 and next Saturday, if we make it work, will be smaller, but cuter
10:19 sdziallas SeanDaly: for example here: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick
10:19 SeanDaly I think might be better to announce at FOSSVT, distribute sticks, but do Mossberg then launch after
10:20 walterbender SeanDaly: what do you mean by announce? a PR?
10:20 caroline There is a much higher initial success rate if you use a Boot Helper CD, but right now our boothelper CD is very ugly in a number of ways.
10:20 erikos-060f is not so sure a PR about an alpha release is needed
10:20 caroline instant success goes way up with the boot helper CD
10:21 SeanDaly walterbender: yes I would like to do PR for "beta 1" in April, "beta 2" in May, "Release Candidate" in June
10:21 walterbender erikos-060f: alpha yes,, but beta?
10:21 caroline PR is our gas, its what will get us the resourcees to go forward
10:22 BenLauDC Hello
10:22 caroline Hi Ben
10:22 SeanDaly Greetings BenLauDC
10:22 I of course don't want PR to get ahead of where we are
10:22 BenLauDC Hi caroline & ScanDaly
10:22 SeanDaly But, PR can help us recruit testers
10:22 caroline What I'm not as clear as I need to be, is what events make good PR. how do we make it most effective
10:23 PR recruits testers, developers, grantors, computer donations and interested teachers and schools.
10:23 SeanDaly caroline: the trick is to get a journalist to write about it. Which can happen if there are 50 people, or 500, or 5000
10:23 caroline What makes a journalist interested?
10:23 sdziallas From my point of view, I'd describe soas-2 as beta, right now. But seems like others don't feel that way. What I was thinking about was something like "beta release... announced at FOSSVT... please help testing... be aware, still beta..." in the press release...
10:23 erikos-060f walterbender: beta is ok I guess - so this would be at linuxtag
10:24 walterbender: according to the Soas schedule
10:24 SeanDaly caroline: if its unreported elsewhere (scoop), if it will change the status quo (OS used in education), ...
10:24 caroline erikos, i think we should release with kids and educators not at Linux conferences. Linux people will be interested iether way.
10:24 SeanDaly sdziallas: naturally, but we especially need to avoid a journalist having a bad experience
10:25 caroline: LinuxTag is an excellent forum for reaching distributors and OEMs....
10:25 walterbender erikos-060f: I am looking at a different Roadmap than you, I guess -- http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]n_a_Stick/Roadmap
10:25 caroline yeah we want to iminimzie widely read. I tried it and it didn't work. especially since that ends up staying up on the interent for years.
10:25 sdziallas SeanDaly: right, but journalists normally don't use Pentium 3 500 MHz machines, do they? I mean on your IBM ThinkPardor whatever has quite a chance to get SoaS run.
10:25 SeanDaly caroline: ideally we should work on both sides
10:25 erikos-060f caroline: ok - we just picked some dates
10:25 caroline Sean yes
10:26 erikos-060f caroline: so we can work towards a goal
10:26 walterbender I think that if it installs, the experience is pretty great right now...
10:26 caroline Walter, yes very much so
10:26 SeanDaly walterbender: yes, I agree
10:26 caroline I think we will learn a ton on Friday
10:26 with a forgiving audiance
10:26 walterbender so I think we can risk going to Mossberg next week... with some hand-holding
10:26 caroline lets also get it up on on-disk asap
10:27 erikos-060f walterbender: I guess I was only discussing with sdziallas so far
10:27 SeanDaly This is sounding good... we can ask FOSSVT attendees to help as an exclusive, "prior to beta launch"
10:27 walterbender erikos-060f: the sucrose 0.84 release is in pretty great shape...
10:28 erikos-060f: so it is mostly a matter of the Fedora USB side of things
10:28 sdziallas repeats himself in pointing out that he believes that soas-2 looks rather well for him
10:28 SeanDaly I like the on-line solution because scalable
10:28 caroline I agree, it seem like its mostly fedora bugs that keep things from launching and working.
10:29 erikos-060f walterbender: good - but can be improved
10:29 caroline How long after Friday could we publish a press release about FOSSVT?
10:29 erikos-060f walterbender: the soas experience
10:29 SeanDaly caroline I have a question, is there any way you can arrange for a studio photo shoot of the three variants of stick?
10:29 caroline The normal user SoaS experienced would be improved by a better boot helper experience
10:29 SeanDaly i would like to do PR with a photo
10:30 caroline Will send to Lee,
10:30 SeanDaly Or if you could send me one of each I could get it done here
10:30 caroline I sent but didn't put enough postage on :(
10:30 sure email your address
10:30 SeanDaly caroline: ok
10:31 I had another concern... the logo seems a little discombobulated, the sugar not lined up with labs, do the sticks look OK to you?
10:31 caroline So maybe our explicit focus for Friday is asking educators what they need to make it work.
10:31 the letter size seems a bit off to me.
10:31 SeanDaly caroline: excellent idea
10:31 caroline and we can write about that angle
10:32 SeanDaly caroline: good idea
10:32 caroline we can write about process how we are collaborating with educators and trying things with kids and you can checkout our work in progress
10:32 rather then RELEASE focused
10:32 SeanDaly i'd really like to organize teacher feedback which is not bug reporting
10:32 caroline process and relationships focused.
10:32 jt4sugar In PR are we announcing Beta release and announcing we're looking for Educators to test and join the community
10:33 SeanDaly jt4sugar: yes but part of that is to make educator reporting as simple as possible
10:33 caroline jt4 yes, but a bit of a slight turn, we are going out to educators and finding out what they want.
10:33 combine it with the urgoy story.
10:33 everyone invites people in. we are going out to them and getting feedback and collecting needs.
10:34 SeanDaly For instance, a survey page could be total experience oriented: do they have high expectations of ICT-assisted education? What technical concerns do they have?
10:35 caroline Walterbender, do you have a translated copy of the Uragoy survey?
10:35 jt4sugar Set up emails by grade to take in suggestions-lesson plan ideas-areas of concern-What they want
10:35 caroline actually passing out an instrument at FOSSVT is an interesting idea.
10:35 SeanDaly By the way, we don't actually *need* a realworld event to release a beta, it's just a useful way to communicate our connections to teachers & kids
10:35 caroline though it maybe too late.
10:36 sdziallas_ sorry, I keep on getting disconnected.
10:36 caroline Sean, right, whenever possible we want kdis and teachers in our press releases
10:37 walterbender Caroline: I can make a translation tonight, after I figure out why the server is broken
10:37 sdziallas_ I guess FOSSVT is really chances we should use
10:37 caroline ok do we have another agenda item?
10:38 SeanDaly Yes we have a nav problem across site sections
10:38 erikos is rightly pointing out the downside of 2nd window opening
10:38 I have proposed  a couple variants of harmonized navbar
10:39 But, each time I make a suggestion the silence is deafening :-(
10:39 Maybe it's a lot of work for every section to add a common navbar
10:39 caroline that must mean everyone agrees!
10:39 tomeu the alternative is adding tab support to browse, and we got into feature freeze ages ago ;)
10:40 SeanDaly Well, I'm good at suggesting solutions but not good at coding that onto the pages :-( :-(
10:40 sdziallas_ goes grabbing a new coffee
10:40 jt4sugar Tab support seems like a good idea
10:40 walterbender tab support is 0.86
10:40 jt4sugar ok
10:40 SeanDaly Tab support is of course a good idea but doesn't resolve the nav problem
10:41 walterbender in the short term, our only option is no target pages
10:41 SeanDaly i would like any visitor landing on any sugarlabs.org page to be able to find at least the homepage and ideally all the other sections
10:42 Question, does anyone know if common code could be used on the wiki section, bugs section, etc.?
10:42 walterbender SeanDaly: don't understand the question
10:42 KarlieRobinson may I chime in on website nav?
10:43 walterbender please chime away!!
10:43 KarlieRobinson when I counsel at SCORE, I often advise my clients to use a "Grocery Store" model for site design
10:43 SeanDaly ok... I was suggesting a two-tier navbar with 7 menu items across the screen in top tier
10:43 KarlieRobinson WHen you enter the grocery store, there's always a seasonal display, beer and chips for sporting events, candy for easter etc
10:44 but from there you can easily move to any department from that single starting point or do the "saturday morning" tour around the whole place, not missing a single isle
10:44 SeanDaly But, I have no idea if it's possible to code a menu which will work on every section
10:44 KarlieRobinson The idea with the SL.org home page is to be that welcome display and give nav out to the other important areas
10:44 SeanDaly KarlieRobinson: our problem is more like a shopping center with 8 different stores... each with its own look & feel
10:45 KarlieRobinson that home page should have some dynamics
10:45 Not a problem, the mall uses the same layout
10:45 So on the main content area of the site you have your changable welcome message that points to great work being done in the various areas
10:46 on the side, you have a menu of sorts with the areas and what they're about
10:46 you then repeat that with the sub sections
10:46 layering the info as you g
10:46 go
10:46 it's also important that on the top layers where people visit first language is very plain spoken and gets more technical the further in you go
10:47 jt4sugar With the amount of space available at top of pages two-tier navbar would be helpful and not overbearing
10:47 walterbender needs to hop on his bike to get into Cambridge...
10:47 SeanDaly I'd love to do that if there was "a site"... but we have cobbled together a number of diffferent "sites" and the immediate problem is to provide nav to the homepage and between these sections
10:47 sdziallas_ wishes walterbender a nice trip and wants to catch him later ;)
10:48 walterbender sdziallas: I hope to be back online in ~60 minutes
10:48 SeanDaly jt4sugar: yes my sentiment exactly
10:48 KarlieRobinson check http://publicsoftwarefoundation.org to get what I mean about nav through various areas
10:48 sdziallas_ walterbender: okey dokey :)
10:48 SeanDaly walterbender: cycle safe!
10:49 KarlieRobinson I've tabbed the top of the page, but only simply
10:49 not to overwhelm the visitor
10:49 when they click the tab they get more info about the various dealings
10:50 jt4sugar Seems to be open real estate at Top Right Center of each page
10:50 SeanDaly KarlieRobinson: compare http://dev.sugarlabs.org/ to http://www.sugarlabs.org/
10:51 KarlieRobinson first off, light on dark is so hard on the eyes
10:51 SeanDaly compare http://people.sugarlabs.org/ to http://activities.sugarlabs.org
10:51 KarlieRobinson second, it's not a matter of space it's about using the space you do have
10:51 Activities has a much better layout
10:52 SeanDaly My point is, it's not our priority right now to redesign our 8 site sections... but it is a priority to at least enable users to navigate between them
10:52 KarlieRobinson and I don't see why you couldn't tab each of those areas off your main welcome or do a side bar "menu" with a short description of what the user will find in each area?
10:52 No, don't do it all at once, but you do need a master plan
10:53 Branding is a fancy word for a promise to deliver
10:53 when you co-brand your sites all together overtime it helps create brand confidene
10:53 SeanDaly KarlieRobinson: yes, that's a suggestion-box candidate along with my two-tier navbar suggestion
10:53 KarlieRobinson I don't get the two tier
10:53 why not just put yourself out there
10:53 easy peasy
10:53 jt4sugar Adding extra navigation two-tier until some redesign later seems like a good accommodation
10:54 KarlieRobinson the index at SL.org could go a long way to helping people get to the right places fast and easy
10:54 SeanDaly KarlieRobinson: we are short on hands so we triage
10:54 Right now we are prioritizing Sugar on a Stick
10:54 KarlieRobinson excellent, then simply triage the face of SL.org
10:54 it's one page
10:54 SeanDaly the static intro at www.sugarlabs.org has been up for only a month
10:55 activities.sugarlabs.org too
10:55 KarlieRobinson but you also have to include the idea that anyone who comes to your site based on any pr you do will need a good jumping off point
10:55 SeanDaly we've so far succeeded in referencing the homepage, which was quite difficult because the previos homepage & referenced as such was the wiki
10:55 KarlieRobinson if everything you put out says visit sl.org that needs to be a sweet and smiling face of the org as a whole regarless of what the other sections look and feel like
10:56 the wiki and all the rest can remain the same
10:56 SeanDaly As I say we've solved the problem of the hompage, but without nav unsophisticated users arrive deep in the site but can't climb back out
10:56 And, the Sugar Browse activity doesn't handle tabs yet
10:57 KarlieRobinson just be sure that anyone hitting the index at sl.org is welcomed and moved into the other areas quickly
10:57 SeanDaly Visitors can find the wiki, activities, download, technical sections; they just can't get back to the hompage
10:57 KarlieRobinson don't worry so much abut visitors not being able to get back out or move between the areas yet
10:57 if they can get back to SL.org they can start a new path
10:58 SeanDaly KarlieRobinson: right now they can't that's the problem that needs to be solved
10:58 I need to mention one more point: the press page will be changed soon
10:58 KarlieRobinson Just focus your attention on the face if you plan to do PR
10:58 focus on interoperability as a secondary
10:58 SeanDaly Christian has worked on a couple of variants to scale multi-languages
10:59 And I have two additional translations to put into the PDF
10:59 Still missing Italian though :-(
10:59 KarlieRobinson Musts for the home page - links and info to each subdomain people. activities. etc
10:59 jt4sugar SeanDaly: In the two-tiers how many links are we talking?
10:59 KarlieRobinson A focus on your learners, parents teachers etc
10:59 SeanDaly KarlieRobinson: did you see my thread with the list of 26 sections?
11:00 KarlieRobinson the what's in it for me stuff
11:00 nope
11:00 not that I recall anyway
11:00 I might not even be on said list
11:00 SeanDaly are you on the marketing list? It's in the archive I can dig out  alink for you
11:00 KarlieRobinson for Fedora, yes
11:01 but any pub archive link would be a bonus
11:01 SeanDaly [Marketing] Do not open a new window for menu link on sugarlabs.org
11:01 was the thread title
11:02 here's my 2nd suggestion two tiers: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]April/000742.html
11:02 KarlieRobinson would you like me to sketch something up?
11:02 SeanDaly My problem is not imagining solutions, it's figuring out who is going to code nav for 8 sites
11:03 KarlieRobinson don't worry about 8 right now
11:03 work on what belongs in the main section
11:03 then the rest can follow suit
11:03 and coding nav - what about Drupal or Joomla or another CMS
11:03 begin with the finishing touches if you can
11:04 SeanDaly We need to satisfy multiple user profiles: teachers/parents, funders, journalists, developers, contributors
11:04 KarlieRobinson that's not a problem with a CMS for the main section
11:04 in a sense you have 8 or 9 websites stacked together
11:04 SeanDaly We're very far from a site redesign & common platform it's not our priority right now
11:04 KarlieRobinson then I don't see the reason to worry about nav for 8 sites
11:05 and who said anything has to be common?
11:05 all you need to do is get people to where they want to be
11:05 even with nested sites
11:05 SeanDaly I'm not sure we're getting anywhere but I am most concerned about unsophisticated users - teachers
11:05 KarlieRobinson me t
11:05 o
11:06 SeanDaly the main problem, referencing, was solved after our March 16ths media launch
11:06 KarlieRobinson if you slapped up a drupal or joomla etc you can create teacher zones that then guides them out to the other sections but not until you've had a chance to explain things
11:06 SeanDaly now, all we need is for the sites to be strung together, integrating them closely can coome later
11:07 KarlieRobinson in the grand scheme of things I'm probably over stepping my bounds
11:07 SeanDaly If you're volunteering you're more than welcome :-) heaven knows we coould use the help
11:07 jt4sugar SeanDaly: How do we get to the decision on Two-tier nav bar-
11:07 SeanDaly jt4sugar: I have the feeling nobody wants to deal wiith it because each subsite person will need to code it
11:08 So I guess next step is to figure out who is in charge of each subsection
11:08 Ideally, we can have a code snippet which can be inserted and voilà
11:08 Christian also said he would reply to my last mail
11:09 jt4sugar SeanDaly: Its important in short term so a request on all lists may be appropriate
11:10 SeanDaly jt4sugar: I agree, erikos has been pointing out for some time that it is problematic that the site sections can't be viewed correctly in Browse
11:10 i will send to all lists and... concisely
11:10 I have to go now are there any other topics we need to look at?
11:12 ok going once...
11:12 going twice....
11:12 erikos SeanDaly: thanks for listening to my advice ;p
11:12 KarlieRobinson thanks for letting me rant, more to come via private email
11:12 SeanDaly thanks everybody (& erikos :-) :-)
11:13 tomeu btw, shouldn't we have another meeting right now?
11:13 SeanDaly karlieRobinson: ok be sure to read through that thread thanks
11:13 #endmeeting

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