| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 10:09 | cms | who do we have here for the design meeting? |
| 10:09 | y0shu | - Josh |
| 10:09 | garycmartin | raises hand |
| 10:10 | cms | great |
| 10:10 | let's give tomeu and eben a few more mins to join | |
| 10:10 | garycmartin | Sure. |
| 10:10 | walterbender | tomeu had been on #sugar |
| 10:11 | cms: a little topic while we are waiting... | |
| 10:11 | cms | sure |
| 10:11 | walterbender | I think it would be great to be able to scatter around the wiki more graphical elements based on the logo |
| 10:12 | cms | walter: thanks for the reminder |
| 10:12 | walterbender | as headers for different topics/teams, etc |
| 10:12 | maybe we could have a request process to generate them? | |
| 10:12 | any reason not to just use Trac? | |
| 10:13 | cms | i suppose we could, if it would help |
| 10:13 | walterbender | anything to help in terms of process |
| 10:13 | cms | i can work on the logo extensions |
| 10:13 | yes, agreed | |
| 10:13 | walterbender | so if we had on the logo page: if you need an extention, file a ticket... |
| 10:14 | cms | we need to be careful not to overextend it |
| 10:14 | we should choose the applications carefully | |
| 10:14 | walterbender | cms: exactly... this way we can keep track of what we are doing |
| 10:15 | cms | sounds good--can someone set us up on trac? |
| 10:15 | y0shu | That's a good idea |
| 10:15 | I'm a little new to trac though | |
| 10:16 | cms | well, perhaps we should start the meeting and figure out trac later--eben may also have experience with it |
| 10:16 | walterbender | y0shu: it is pretty easy once you get past the initial hurdle... |
| 10:16 | garycmartin | Theres a design component there already to file against. |
| 10:16 | cms | for today, i thought we could start a discussion about the home view |
| 10:17 | there are different opinions about what it should be | |
| 10:17 | y0shu | walterbender: It seems like it would be, I'm just getting my feet wet with SVN right now on another project as well |
| 10:17 | walterbender | cms: sorry. can I add one more topic? can we also talk a little about keyboard shortcuts at some point? |
| 10:17 | cms | sure |
| 10:18 | for the UI? | |
| 10:18 | y0shu | cms: sounds good, can we squeeze in aslo design possibly at the end? |
| 10:18 | walterbender | cms: yes. it is very important on non-XO platforms |
| 10:18 | cms | yes, that's true |
| 10:19 | walterbender | cms: so #TOPIC homeview? |
| 10:19 | cms | ok, should we start with home, then move on to keyboard shortcuts, and finally talk about the aslo design? |
| 10:19 | thanks! ;) | |
| 10:19 | #TOPIC homeview | |
| 10:19 | ? | |
| 10:19 | walterbender | cms: that is correct... |
| 10:19 | cms | great--still getting the hang of this |
| 10:20 | well, | |
| 10:20 | as you know there have been recent discussion about home | |
| 10:20 | originally, the ring came about as a solution to move activities from the frame into the home view | |
| 10:21 | walterbender | circles and squares in both cases |
| 10:21 | no triangles :) | |
| 10:21 | cms | it's limitation (as far as how many activities it could hold) was a benefit, since we wanted children to think about certain activities as favorites |
| 10:21 | those were the ones represented in the ring | |
| 10:21 | walterbender | kandinsky would be happy :) |
| 10:22 | cms | (yes--no triangles!) |
| 10:22 | other activities would be shown in the list view, which acted also as an activity "manager" | |
| 10:22 | walterbender | cms: the notion of collections of activities is more powerful than just favorites |
| 10:23 | cms | walterbender: yes, that's a good point to raise here--we're beginning to find that the favorites model may not be as successful as we had hoped |
| 10:23 | walterbender | cms: since activities work in concert with each other, there are reasons (pedagogical and otherwise) to organize them |
| 10:23 | y0shu | walterbender: I think it would be interesting to group them into smaller collections - based on category |
| 10:24 | cms | based on category, or perhaps even better, based on projects |
| 10:24 | walterbender | y0shu: I am not sure about by category as much as by task |
| 10:24 | e.g., this week, we are working on a newsletter, so let's group Record, Write, etc. | |
| 10:24 | cms | it would be great, for instance, it i could create a homeview with activities pertaining only to a project |
| 10:24 | y0shu | yeah, category isn't the right word |
| 10:25 | cms | so-- |
| 10:25 | this is a fundamental question i think, do we want a single view for all activities, | |
| 10:25 | or is there a benefit in only showing a select few? | |
| 10:25 | after all, if i can see everything at once, i may not need organization by project/task | |
| 10:26 | walterbender | cms: I think there is real benefit in being able to show a select few... |
| 10:26 | cms: from the teacher's perspective, being able to limit the scope for a time is useful | |
| 10:26 | cms | walterbender: are you thinking from a pedagogical standpoint, that teachers could put together the activities for children to use? |
| 10:27 | walterbender | cms: whether it is the teacher or the students, either way, yes |
| 10:27 | a dynamic grouping... | |
| 10:27 | garycmartin | cms: a select few is beneficial, you may have many installed for rare use, and just want to use a simple working set on a day to day basis. |
| 10:27 | cms | that seems very powerful |
| 10:27 | walterbender | when I go to math class, these 5 activities are on the home view... |
| 10:28 | when I am hanging with my friends, we have these 20 games | |
| 10:28 | cms | but if you could essentially filter your view by project, it also makes me want a single view with all available activities |
| 10:28 | so i have somewhere to go if the activity i'm looking for is not shown in my project | |
| 10:28 | to jump to the chase: | |
| 10:29 | when we met with nicholas last year, he wasn't in favor of the ring, for the limitations that we precisely saw as its benefits earlier | |
| 10:30 | walterbender: yes, and this also is perhaps a way to introduce the notion of bulletin boards | |
| 10:30 | perhaps that is what they are--filter for activities, with (perhaps) the ability to also show objects one has created | |
| 10:31 | i think that to enable that kind of a view in home would be a great way to think about extending it in a meaningful way | |
| 10:31 | and i think it relies on two things: (1) the filtered view, by project of task, and (2) a single view of all activities | |
| 10:32 | if we can find a visual mechanism by which to do both, i think we would have a more useful home view than is currently the case | |
| 10:32 | walterbender | a problem with filtering is the name... |
| 10:32 | cms | garycmartin: i agree |
| 10:32 | walterbender | kids might know the nickname of a friend, but not know the name of an activity |
| 10:33 | people don't seem to understand filtering in the neighborhood view or Journal | |
| 10:33 | maybe it is just that we haven't done it quite right... | |
| 10:33 | cms | walterbender: do children use search in those views? |
| 10:34 | walterbender | cms: not in my experience, except by accident, in which case, they don't understand where everything went |
| 10:34 | cms | walterbender: yes, i think we still haven't gotten it quite right--groups isn't there yet, and neighborhood needs more work as well |
| 10:35 | walterbender: that's something we should work on | |
| 10:35 | there probably is a solution at a technical level | |
| 10:35 | making the relationship between your query and the view more clear | |
| 10:36 | walterbender | I think we need to lead by design on this issue |
| 10:36 | cms | right--when i say technical, i mean at a usability level |
| 10:37 | we should get back to groups and neighborhood, since there are many issues to discuss in both views | |
| 10:37 | i'd suggest talking about those in our next meeting | |
| 10:37 | i'd want eben to be there, as well, since he has many thoughts on how to improve both views | |
| 10:37 | but for now, back to home! | |
| 10:38 | i agree with grouping activities by project--that would be an effective way to extend home | |
| 10:38 | walterbender | cms: I only brought it up to question the idea of filters as a major component of the design |
| 10:39 | cms: one "simple" approach is just to extend the star system to more tags | |
| 10:39 | cms | walterbender: yes, you're right to question filters, but i think that there likely is a usability-based solution for how to make them more understandable |
| 10:40 | walterbender | then the favorites menu simple becomes which tag you are interested in |
| 10:40 | garycmartin | cms: If anything, gadget seems to be leaading us towards favorites. |
| 10:40 | walterbender | or launching an activity brings up the other activities in that tag group |
| 10:40 | cms | from your experience observing children, do they understand starring? |
| 10:40 | and the relationship between list and ring view? | |
| 10:40 | walterbender | cms: I cannot say... not initially |
| 10:41 | but they learn that one pretty quickly | |
| 10:41 | cms | i see |
| 10:41 | and after they learn it, how do they use the two views? | |
| 10:41 | i've seen many examples of "overloaded" rings | |
| 10:42 | walterbender | :( |
| 10:42 | cms | which would lead me to think that the desire is to have all activities represented in home |
| 10:42 | walterbender | cms: I am not sure |
| 10:42 | garycmartin | cms: I was thinking about trying to improve making favorites, as a partial solution. Best I have so far is for one object in home (ring) to be a [+] type icon that presents a list of all activities not favorited so far. |
| 10:43 | cms | garycmartin: or that could be in the toolbar |
| 10:43 | the sentiment is what i'm getting at-- | |
| 10:43 | is there a view of *all* activities within the informal view (not list view) | |
| 10:44 | garycmartin | cms: toolbar is to separate, putting it in the ring context was important (I thought) |
| 10:44 | walterbender | maybe something as simple as most recent? |
| 10:44 | cms | "most recent" could be one category, |
| 10:44 | others could be your projects | |
| 10:44 | and "favorites" could be yet another | |
| 10:45 | it seems like we do need filters (however they are represented) | |
| 10:45 | garycmartin | cms: sounds like we are making things more complicated, and not less... |
| 10:45 | cms | garycmartin: yes, and no |
| 10:45 | yes, more complicated because we are introducing other forms of categorization | |
| 10:46 | but i think there is also an opportunity to simply | |
| 10:46 | simplify | |
| 10:46 | walterbender | cms: filters that run behind the scenes as opposed to my typing into a search box |
| 10:46 | cms | walterbender: yes, that would be more intuitive (and we need to figure out how to represent them best) |
| 10:46 | seandaly | sorry I'm late evreyone technical difficulties |
| 10:47 | cms | simplicity could come from a clearer relationship b/w ring and list view |
| 10:47 | hi sean | |
| 10:47 | seandaly | hi cms! |
| 10:47 | walterbender | but in any case, the idea that favorites is not different layouts, but rather different content |
| 10:47 | cms | we are just discussing the home view in the UI |
| 10:47 | yes, different content--i agree | |
| 10:48 | seandaly | home view very important |
| 10:48 | cms | though i think there is still a question about the ring being unable to hold beyond a certain number of activities |
| 10:48 | let me throw out an idea; | |
| 10:48 | seandaly | cms: an inevitable problem the question is how to over the limit gracefully |
| 10:49 | cms | what if we did go with freeform view as the default, but added the ability to organize your icons either radially or in a grid? |
| 10:49 | walterbender | cms: I don't see any merit in freeform |
| 10:49 | why not revert to a list if the ring gets too full? | |
| 10:49 | seandaly | if freeform, do icons ever move by themselves? and can icons be placed (anchored) by the user? |
| 10:50 | walterbender | but have different filters for the ring, to keep the numbers down |
| 10:50 | cms | icons are placed by the user |
| 10:50 | but i like where walter is going with that | |
| 10:50 | ring works up to a certain number of activities, after which one could resort to another view | |
| 10:50 | walterbender | but moving the icons is orthogonal to the issue of the initial layout by the system |
| 10:50 | seandaly | walterbender: if freeform automatic when ring not enough, could be extremely disorienting/worrying |
| 10:50 | garycmartin | cms: freeform is back to shuffling desktop mess about all over again. |
| 10:51 | walterbender | seandaly: I was thinking ring or list |
| 10:51 | seandaly | how about concentric rings like Saturn? |
| 10:51 | cms | you are right--that was my initial reaction to freeform |
| 10:51 | the one thing it has going for it is scalability | |
| 10:51 | walterbender | cms: also, it is difficult to scan |
| 10:51 | seandaly | rectangular screen so rings beyond first one like arcs |
| 10:51 | cms | so, generally, do we feel the ring is working well? |
| 10:51 | walterbender | cms: also, it is different on every desktop, making it difficult for th e teacher |
| 10:52 | cms: as long as it isn't too full | |
| 10:52 | cms | well, the aspect of being able to personalize your desktop is something that i found attractive about freeform view |
| 10:52 | walterbender | cms: so I think our strategy could be how to keep it from becoming too full |
| 10:52 | seandaly | confession: I have almost the same aActivities on my 2 XOs but the rings are different and I wish I could sync them even alpha sort |
| 10:52 | cms | but it's true that that comes at the expense of clutter and having to move icons around the desktop |
| 10:53 | walterbender | cms: why cannot you use the ring as a starting place for reorganizing? |
| 10:53 | y0shu | cms: I think the ring works fine for now, but if we get to the point where we have a huge amount of activities available, there will be problems |
| 10:53 | mtd | seandaly, walterbender : the ring should alpha sort or something. That'd be trivial to implement. |
| 10:53 | seandaly | mtd: at least optional then my two XOs would show the same Activities in same place |
| 10:53 | cms | another solution that has been mentioned is a formal grid view |
| 10:53 | walterbender | I agree that the constant reordering is a problem... |
| 10:53 | cms | how does everyone feel about that? |
| 10:54 | in my opinion it doesn't sit as well with the other views... | |
| 10:54 | seandaly | I must say I don't like freeform :-( |
| 10:54 | walterbender | visually, I prefer the ring and a list to a grid |
| 10:54 | mtd | walterbender +1 |
| 10:54 | seandaly | Visually there is already lots of appropriate freeform such as network view |
| 10:54 | garycmartin | walterbender: +1 |
| 10:55 | seandaly | My idea for concentric rings: ((O)) |
| 10:55 | walterbender | cms: I have always loved the idea of the rings around activities in the neighborhood view |
| 10:55 | cms | alright, so it sounds like freeform is not a winner ;) |
| 10:56 | walterbender: i agree, that's where ring came from initially | |
| 10:56 | walterbender | cms: maybe the "all" view could be a collection of small circles? |
| 10:56 | seandaly | walterbender: +1 and it scales well with little people superimposed on 2nd ring |
| 10:56 | cms | and i also think it is a strong iconic visual for sugar |
| 10:56 | seandaly | cms: very, very strong |
| 10:56 | child in the center | |
| 10:56 | cms | walterbender: that's a great idea, it could be a grid of smaller circles |
| 10:57 | homunq | a spiral |
| 10:57 | walterbender | cms: but maybe rather than the unclustered icons being random, they could be in a big circle? |
| 10:57 | tomeu | sorry, had fallen asleep :( |
| 10:57 | walterbender | homunq: I like spirals too... |
| 10:58 | seandaly | cms, walterbender: other rings interesting idea |
| 10:58 | homunq | I mean, smaller circles of various sizes, in descending order of size, each tangent to an inner circle. |
| 10:58 | seandaly | hi Tomeu, I know this problem :D |
| 10:58 | walterbender | homunq: but if we can keep to one basic design element, I think it is cleaner |
| 10:58 | homunq | it would end up looking somewhat nautilus-like, though not really. |
| 10:58 | seandaly | I have a question: |
| 10:58 | cms | hi tomeu! |
| 10:59 | seandaly | many years ago I used a shareware, a list launcher |
| 10:59 | on my desktop I kept like 6 icons | |
| 10:59 | by clicking anywhere, a list of apps opened up & I dragged & released to launch it | |
| 11:00 | tomeu | waves and reads backlog |
| 11:00 | homunq | walterbender: that idea is all circles. Circles are still the basic design. kid in the global center; favorites, recent, and tasks as sub-centers; and activities around the smaller circles. |
| 11:00 | seandaly | Could be organized way to access seldom-used Activites and avoid clutter yet 1 click-drag-release |
| 11:00 | cms | homunq: that is generally correct, although the other views are essentially freeform views comprised of clusters |
| 11:01 | home could potentially be similar, as well | |
| 11:01 | y0shu | seandaly: I like that idea |
| 11:01 | walterbender | cms: I'd argue you have the sign bit wrong... |
| 11:01 | the other views should be more like the home view in my view :) | |
| 11:02 | seandaly | in fact that shareware allowed editing of submenus too, I had over 50 apps 1 click away and 6 icons on the desktop |
| 11:02 | walterbender | nieghorhood view starts to sing when it starts making circles |
| 11:02 | cms | walterbender: currently, they are! |
| 11:02 | i think either approach (ring/freeform) feels consistent with the visual principles of the UI | |
| 11:02 | homunq | have people talked about making it dance like the MacOS dock does? |
| 11:03 | seandaly | homunq: costly in processing cycles? |
| 11:03 | cms | homonq: we're still figuring out the high-level |
| 11:03 | walterbender | cms: maybe the idea as things organize, they form circles is the underlying principle |
| 11:03 | homunq | seandaly: that would have been my instinct, but just checking. |
| 11:03 | cms | walterbender: that makes sense |
| 11:04 | question: how have kids responded to the freeform view? | |
| 11:04 | seandaly | Ringling Bros & Barnum&Bailey's 3-Ring Sugar |
| 11:04 | walterbender | cms: here is an idea |
| 11:05 | seandaly | tomeu: that's a famous circus each one had a ring, then when they joined up rather than a big ring they each kept theirs |
| 11:05 | homunq | my daughter likes circle better. She's 4. |
| 11:05 | walterbender | what if the unorganized data where in an orbit at the edges of the screen and organized data is in a tigher orbit in the center |
| 11:05 | you could drag things in from the outer orbit | |
| 11:05 | homunq | walterbender: ooh, I like |
| 11:05 | seandaly | walterbender: that's what I mean by Saturn (((O))) |
| 11:05 | walterbender | or small circle clusters could form in the center area as well |
| 11:06 | cms | walterbender: interesting thought |
| 11:06 | seandaly | Center ring could stay tight |
| 11:06 | walterbender | cms: might be too busy... I don't know |
| 11:06 | seandaly | leaving room for outer rings |
| 11:06 | cms | walterbender: but, what does the distinction mean to the user? |
| 11:06 | on a functional level? | |
| 11:06 | seandaly | cms: could be how often each is used |
| 11:07 | walterbender | cms: in the neighborhood view, the same as the current clusters mean |
| 11:07 | cms | i think simplicity is key |
| 11:07 | i'd still favor a simple ring | |
| 11:07 | but: | |
| 11:07 | seandaly | cms: for sure must be instantly understandable :-) |
| 11:07 | cms | the objections to freeform are that it makes the view more cumbersome? |
| 11:08 | what about the added personalization of your home view? | |
| 11:08 | seandaly | cms: needle-in-haystack aspect |
| 11:08 | y0shu | cms: I think personalization of home would be a really useful feature |
| 11:08 | walterbender | cms: I think that letting people rearrange is OK |
| 11:08 | homunq | OK, here's one. You have one central ring, default to kid in the middle. Kid is synonym for recent... |
| 11:09 | tomeu | one of the things I like most in the sugar design, is that I'm not forced to take on tasks that bring no value to me. ordering icons in the desktop is one such thing |
| 11:09 | walterbender | cms: but I think people are more interested in other types of personalization |
| 11:09 | garycmartin | cms: personalization for me comes from the activities I choose to favorite for frequent use. I did like the idea of the different layout primitives, but only spent time in circle/spiral/sunflower |
| 11:09 | homunq | ... on the left, you have larger icons in grid arrangement that doesn't bump ring, representing tasks/tags. One of those is a star for favorites... |
| 11:09 | tomeu | that's why my desktops are a mess, and prefer to delete stuff instead of putting some order |
| 11:10 | but would be better to me to just leave everything there and just search what I'm looking for | |
| 11:10 | cms | garycmartin: i can get behind personalization being the choice of what you display in the ring-- |
| 11:10 | homunq | on the right, you have a more complete set, small icons, in grid arrangement, not bumping ring. |
| 11:10 | cms | my only concern is that kids understand and use that feature |
| 11:10 | tomeu | though some tag-assisted browsing would be nice as well |
| 11:10 | homunq | when you click on icon on the left, it replaces kid in middle, and you get a new set in the main circle. |
| 11:10 | the end. | |
| 11:10 | seandaly | Another approach could be to keep alternate rings small, too small to choose each Activity, but you choose a different ring like a different planet, it replaces the current ring and you have a different group of Activities |
| 11:11 | you move from one active ring to another | |
| 11:11 | walterbender | cms: I think the idea of a smaller circle represent the current set of activities is the key |
| 11:11 | seandaly | the inactive ones are tiny |
| 11:11 | homunq | oh, also, when you start a new activity, it picks up whatever tag is currently centered. |
| 11:12 | cms | walterbender: that seems to be where this is heading... |
| 11:12 | homunq | The logic of my idea is that you do not clutter the view with extra rings, but provide an easy graphical way to get different sets in your main ring. |
| 11:12 | garycmartin | A lot of this is getting more cluttered/complicated and not less :-( |
| 11:13 | cms | i think it's good to think about other options, but to me ring and freeform both be the most pure and simplest solutions thus far |
| 11:13 | *both are | |
| 11:13 | seandaly | cms: they are both fine for small number of icons problem is how to scale |
| 11:13 | tomeu | wonder how feasible would be to produce a soas image with an alternative design and test both with children |
| 11:13 | cms | it sounds like there is general agreement that ring is a good solution |
| 11:14 | garycmartin | cms: ring +1 |
| 11:14 | seandaly | tomeu: why not mock it up in presentation software |
| 11:14 | walterbender | seandaly: before you joined, we talked about the favorites menu as being about content, not layout |
| 11:14 | cms | tomeu: testing is important |
| 11:14 | tomeu | seandaly: if that gives us the info we want, awesome |
| 11:14 | homunq | seandaly: switching rings, that is my idea. Only the choices for ring-to-switch-to are central icons, not graphically little rings. |
| 11:14 | cms | tomeu: i don't think we even have to create new views-- |
| 11:15 | tomeu | about why we have seen so many overcrowded rings, I have some background that may help |
| 11:15 | seandaly | switching rings an interesting path |
| 11:15 | cms | i'd be curious to simply test ring+favorites and freeform view, and see which kids tend to understand more readily |
| 11:15 | tomeu: that would be great | |
| 11:15 | tomeu | at the very start of the favorites thing, new activities appeared in the list and users had to go there and star them if they wanted to appear in the ring |
| 11:15 | walterbender | tomeu: which was definitely a problem |
| 11:16 | tomeu | so people saw that they had a home view with only a XO icon, and the bottom frame was empty |
| 11:16 | and coincidently, OLPC had declared in the few months before that no activities would be supported, and produced build without activities | |
| 11:16 | cms | tomeu: that is a problem |
| 11:16 | tomeu | that confused people back then, and people thought that the same had happened |
| 11:17 | again | |
| 11:17 | then we made that all new activities were starred by default | |
| 11:17 | cms | tomeu: couldn't one initially have the core ~12 activities in the ring, and the rest in list view? |
| 11:17 | seandaly | +1 core Activities (now how to pick them) |
| 11:17 | tomeu | cms: that's what should actually happen, but authors of live images had made all of them favorites, because that's the default |
| 11:18 | because we ship a file that says which activities should be favorite by default | |
| 11:18 | but in the case of live images, that doesn't happen | |
| 11:18 | so may be more a distribution issue than a coding or design problem | |
| 11:18 | homunq | I agree that we should have a cure for ring clutter - some way to access things-not-in-the-ring from home view |
| 11:19 | either small icons on the right, or some kind of + icon which gives you a menu, or something. | |
| 11:19 | cms | tomeu: that's good to know, and reassuring |
| 11:19 | seandaly | I have 29 Activities in the ring of the XO in front of me & worry if I banish it, will the Activity go away? |
| 11:19 | tomeu | homunq: the search field helped there, but people typed stuff without knowing, then would be brought to an empty list view |
| 11:19 | cms | how do people feel about conducting observations with both ring and freeform view? |
| 11:19 | homunq | then you could drag and drop from and to there to set starred status (or, if you were switching rings, to tag) |
| 11:19 | tomeu | and thought that they had lost their activities and XO icon |
| 11:19 | walterbender | here is a little thing: maybe list view should be relabled |
| 11:19 | tomeu | that's why it's disabled now |
| 11:19 | walterbender | it should be "all view" |
| 11:20 | homunq | "view all |
| 11:20 | " | |
| 11:20 | walterbender | it appears as a list, but more important, you "view all" |
| 11:20 | homunq | verbs not nouns |
| 11:20 | cms | "view all" is much better than list, i agree |
| 11:20 | y0shu | "view all" +1 |
| 11:21 | walterbender | that may help in terms of people not knowing where their other activities might be |
| 11:21 | garycmartin | walterbender: "view all" yes, like that. |
| 11:21 | seandaly | "view all" very clear |
| 11:21 | tomeu | maybe there should be a link from the home view palette named "More activities" that took to the list view, and in the list view a link in the bottom that took to activities.sl.o (or the school server) |
| 11:21 | cms | who within sugarlabs is actually in touch with schoolchildren using sugar? |
| 11:21 | tomeu | cms: caroline and mel |
| 11:22 | seandaly | tomeu: more Activities might imply other than those currently visible, not "all" |
| 11:22 | cms | great--could we put together a short test protocol and gather 20-30 participants? |
| 11:22 | tomeu | are doing tests with 0.84 |
| 11:22 | people from deployments are normally using 0.82 and older | |
| 11:22 | cms | tomeu: that's terrific |
| 11:22 | walterbender | cms: the problem is, most regular users in schools are still using the old home view... |
| 11:22 | tomeu | seandaly: yeah, because all activities are in activities.sl.o ;) |
| 11:22 | cms | walterbender: the original home view? |
| 11:23 | walterbender | they are just starting the transition to the new sugar in teh major deployments |
| 11:23 | homunq | Is anybody besides seandaly and me excited about switching rings? |
| 11:23 | cms | i see |
| 11:23 | walterbender | but many of the pilots have newer bits |
| 11:23 | tomeu | seandaly: don't really like my suggestion, but maybe we need some crazy brainstorming like that |
| 11:23 | homunq: concentric rings? | |
| 11:23 | homunq | no |
| 11:23 | one ring | |
| 11:24 | seandaly | walterbender: by old home view you mean...? |
| 11:24 | homunq | some icons on the side |
| 11:24 | cms | if tomeu and caroline could help us run through a few observations of ring and freeform view, i think we would have a more solid basis for discussion |
| 11:24 | homunq | icons/tags |
| 11:24 | walterbender | seandaly: icons on the bottom of the frame, paged in |
| 11:24 | tomeu | I would like to understand better Wade's suggestion |
| 11:24 | homunq | if you choose one, it replaces central icon, and the set of activities in ring switches. |
| 11:24 | cms | tomeu: if you are able to help with that, we could work through a short test sequence together |
| 11:24 | tomeu | I think search and tags could help a lot here and in all views |
| 11:25 | seandaly | I seem to remember a test protocol for kids that turned it into a recognition game |
| 11:25 | tomeu | cms: sure, they are very approachable |
| 11:25 | walterbender | homunq: I think I need to see some mock ups to understand it |
| 11:25 | tomeu | seandaly: recognition game? |
| 11:25 | homunq | walterbender: OK, I'll do that tomorrow |
| 11:25 | seandaly | Kids were told to look for the rabbit then the cat, then shown 3 or 4 mockups and timed for how quick they could find the 2 |
| 11:25 | walterbender | tomeu: yes, we haven't really talked about wade's suggestion |
| 11:25 | cms | tomeu: excellent--let's work through the details offline via iaep |
| 11:26 | tomeu | cms: sounds good |
| 11:26 | walterbender | tomeu: but I could see it being connected to the ideas we have been discussing |
| 11:26 | cms | great--for now, i'd suggest we leave the topic and work on our observations |
| 11:26 | seandaly | But that test was testing more color combinations than icon groupings |
| 11:26 | cms | so we can move on to the other topics |
| 11:27 | tomeu | seandaly: but that would help only with discoverability and not with general usability, right? |
| 11:27 | walterbender | ok |
| 11:27 | seandaly | tomeu: yes |
| 11:27 | homunq | my suggestion is inspired by wade's |
| 11:27 | tomeu | yeah, I love search UIs with tags, but there are miriad of ways to expose that in the UI |
| 11:27 | homunq | but an attempt to be a bit simpler graphically |
| 11:27 | cms | homunq: it would be great if you could create a sketch for us, so we can evaluate it better |
| 11:27 | homunq | (not have multiple rings visible at once) |
| 11:27 | tomeu | and it will work or not depending on those details |
| 11:28 | #ACTION homunq to get a box of crayons and draw for us ;) | |
| 11:28 | cms | ok--should we move on to keyboard shortcuts? |
| 11:28 | seandaly | tomeu: I might draw too |
| 11:29 | tomeu | seandaly: sounds good, maybe having several proposals would help here |
| 11:30 | homunq | wonders where is eben... |
| 11:30 | cms | everyone, let's move on to the next topic! |
| 11:30 | homunq | would like to have svg versions of eben's existing mockups to start from |
| 11:30 | walterbender | is there anyone here who understands the constraints on assigning keyboard shortcuts? |
| 11:30 | homunq | can work it out. |
| 11:31 | walterbender | #TOPIC keyboard shortcuts |
| 11:31 | my big issue is that there are no dedicated frame and journal keys | |
| 11:32 | cms | walterbender: that is a big problem--frame especially needs a shortcut |
| 11:32 | walterbender | and having to type alt-shift-... is too difficult to remember or execute |
| 11:32 | cannot we just assign F5 and F6? | |
| 11:32 | the same way we have cooped F1-F4 | |
| 11:32 | garycmartin | walterbender: +1 (barring tech issues) |
| 11:32 | y0shu | are the function keys available on netbooks? like the classmate? |
| 11:33 | seandaly | that's what function keys are for... |
| 11:33 | homunq | thinks we should assign alt and ctrl to application-specific and sugar-wide. |
| 11:33 | tomeu | homunq: also to F* keys? |
| 11:33 | homunq | develop already uses f5-f8 |
| 11:33 | walterbender | homunq: I think that is the intention of alt vs cntrl... |
| 11:34 | seandaly | my Asus EeePC has function keys |
| 11:34 | walterbender | homunq: but I don't know that it is consistently applied |
| 11:34 | tomeu | I'm a bit concerned about the discoverability of those keys, a very big percentage of users don't get to know any accelerator |
| 11:34 | seandaly | So does my Acer Aspire One |
| 11:34 | homunq | of course not. one activity is not important here, just saying. |
| 11:34 | y0shu | probably safe to use them then |
| 11:34 | walterbender | classmate does, in combination with fn |
| 11:34 | homunq | tomeu++ |
| 11:34 | seandaly | I "tried" F1 the first time on non-XO |
| 11:35 | homunq | I think that f9-f12 are safer |
| 11:35 | tomeu | so if our UI depends more than the others on people using keys like that... |
| 11:35 | cms | what do we use the ESC key for, generally? could that be used to bring up the frame? |
| 11:35 | y0shu | fn is kind of difficult for kids I think |
| 11:35 | homunq | an xo has the frame key. Anybody else is not using them for brightness and volume. |
| 11:35 | tomeu | cms: I think that Esc is used in general to dismiss stuff |
| 11:35 | walterbender | tomeu: I agree about discoverability, but it is a problem with alt-shift-f as well |
| 11:35 | seandaly | y0shu: in my experience kids bang on keys until something happens |
| 11:35 | tomeu | walterbender: yeah, dropping the modifiers help there, but may not be enough |
| 11:35 | homunq | my daughter uses alt-esc. never uses the exit from the toolbar. |
| 11:36 | seandaly | I like sequential F1-2-3-4-5-6 |
| 11:36 | cms | ESC might work for the frame, since it is taking you out of the current view... |
| 11:36 | walterbender | tomeu: we have a general problem with non-XOs re the view keys not being discoverable... |
| 11:36 | cms | another possibility could be ALT+SPACE? |
| 11:36 | seandaly | if F1-2-3-4-9-10 wondering what the missing ones do |
| 11:36 | tomeu | walterbender: yeah, that's what I was referring to |
| 11:36 | y0shu | seandaly: yeah, I've seen that, but two keys at once, fn+1 for example is harder for them to see a pattern |
| 11:36 | cms | though i think the function keys make the most sense |
| 11:36 | homunq | cms: naked ESC is used by too many applications to be free for us. |
| 11:37 | seandaly | clear that combos always less intuitive |
| 11:37 | walterbender | tomeu: but once they discover them, adding more should be easier for them |
| 11:37 | cms | homunq: i see... |
| 11:37 | homunq | seandaly: F1-2-3-4 11-12 |
| 11:37 | middle gap is available to activities | |
| 11:37 | y0shu | seandaly: if most netbooks have function keys though, its probably fine to use them |
| 11:37 | tomeu | walterbender: yeah, wonder if the help activity could with that |
| 11:37 | homunq | this is most consistent with xo keyboard. |
| 11:37 | seandaly | homunq: same Activities, or depends? |
| 11:38 | tomeu | I remember that some programs in the old macos that used lots of accelerators had a window that displayed the keyboard and the function of each key |
| 11:38 | homunq | seandaly: ?? |
| 11:38 | tomeu | but on macs, there was a limited number of keyboards |
| 11:38 | homunq | I definitely ++ to discoverable shortcuts. |
| 11:38 | walterbender | tomeu: if they ever discover the frame, we could add the keyboard shortcuts to the hover menus |
| 11:38 | seandaly | F5-6-7-8-9-10 Activites, but always the same ones, or depends on contexte or installation? |
| 11:38 | tomeu | we could have an activity that taught those keys, then rely on some kids teaching others about them |
| 11:39 | walterbender: that's very important | |
| 11:39 | homunq | My dream is that just holding alt puts up a grey letter in front of each toolbox item |
| 11:39 | tomeu | walterbender: we have talked before but never managed to |
| 11:39 | homunq | and toolbox set |
| 11:39 | tomeu | homunq: that's interesting ;) |
| 11:39 | cms | homunq: that would be great--can we do that? |
| 11:39 | seandaly | tomeu:from MacOS v7 keyboard was "live" I think, hit a key & screen showed which |
| 11:40 | homunq | just holding control brings up a cheat sheet after slight delay |
| 11:40 | tomeu | seandaly: we could do something like that |
| 11:40 | homunq | with copy, paste, view source, screenshot, etc. |
| 11:40 | global stuff. | |
| 11:40 | tomeu | ooh |
| 11:40 | homunq: I like that a lot | |
| 11:41 | homunq | next activity, previous activity. |
| 11:41 | cms | that's a great idea |
| 11:41 | walterbender | so we have two action items emerging: a way to invoke a cheat sheet and a remapping of some Sugar keys to F keys |
| 11:41 | tomeu | but would help only with accelerators that have a modifier |
| 11:41 | seandaly | My point of view is: a combo key should react somehow (even blinky gray dot) to show it does "something" |
| 11:41 | homunq | this preserves ctrl-x ctrl-c ctrl-z which is important to me. |
| 11:42 | tomeu | seandaly: that's part of a general problem with the lack of immediate feedback in the UI |
| 11:42 | cms | what is holding CTRL for a few secs brings up the frame? |
| 11:42 | seandaly | I would not recommend changing ctrl-x and c and z |
| 11:42 | homunq | and v of course |
| 11:42 | walterbender | cms: I like that idea |
| 11:42 | seandaly | homunq: +1 |
| 11:42 | mtd | homunq: +1 |
| 11:43 | walterbender | cms: access to the frame is paramount |
| 11:43 | homunq | walterbender: in my scheme, that would be F12 |
| 11:43 | walterbender | homunq: maybe both? |
| 11:43 | cms | yes, i agree--and holding ALT could bring up the key commands |
| 11:43 | seandaly | How to restore frame is not sure how I got it then it autohides? |
| 11:43 | cms | homunq: F12 sounds great, too |
| 11:43 | seandaly | s/is/if |
| 11:43 | mtd | (frame could also come up with both shift keys, or ctrl twice in quick succession) |
| 11:44 | homunq | walterbender: but I am reserving hold-ctrl for cheat sheet |
| 11:44 | walterbender | homunq: OK |
| 11:44 | homunq | of ctrl combos. |
| 11:44 | seandaly | Careful double-shift often used for alternate keysets e.g. Cyrillic |
| 11:44 | garycmartin | homunq: Watch out for using end F keys for critical functions, they don't exist on all keyboards... |
| 11:44 | mtd | seandaly: really? on windows the default is Alt + LShift |
| 11:44 | homunq | garycmartin: :( did not realize |
| 11:44 | mtd | garycmartin, homunq: it's always scary to use F-keys |
| 11:45 | walterbender | F12 is special on the classmate, one level of indirection :( |
| 11:45 | homunq | walterbender: and home? |
| 11:45 | mtd | garycmartin, homunq: better to re-use a modifier, like super |
| 11:45 | walterbender | checking |
| 11:45 | homunq | home/end are pretty usable, if they're there. |
| 11:45 | garycmartin | homunq: F12 is eject on many older Mac keyboards. |
| 11:45 | seandaly | mtd: I haven't typed on a Russian keyboard in Windows since 2002 so maybe changed since |
| 11:46 | mtd | homunq: they're also pretty standard text-editing keys. |
| 11:46 | homunq | mtd: true. |
| 11:46 | mtd | seandaly: yeah that's definitely the XP default "switch keyboard config" key chord (Alt + LShift) |
| 11:46 | y0shu | garycmartin: yeah F12 is eject, but I don't think it would matter if you were running sugar |
| 11:46 | garycmartin | mtd: F keys scary +1 |
| 11:46 | walterbender | homunq: home is labeled on the arrow key... not sure how you access it |
| 11:46 | seandaly | on Mac, F12 is also default for Dashboard widgets |
| 11:46 | homunq | ah |
| 11:47 | what about grab/monopoly keys? | |
| 11:47 | garycmartin | y0shu: but the key isn't marked f12, it can have a little eject graphic on it. |
| 11:47 | homunq | that would be a logical place for frame |
| 11:47 | mtd | homunq: those are super - could be used, yeah, but not just one press on windows :) |
| 11:47 | homunq | and honestly I am not attached to grab. |
| 11:47 | garycmartin | y0shu: and some don't even have a key at all! |
| 11:47 | y0shu | seandaly: if you're running sugar on a stick it wouldn't bring up dashboad |
| 11:47 | *dashboard | |
| 11:48 | mtd | homunq: holding keys isn't great for the frame because one wants to be able to bring it up quickly with a minimum of delay |
| 11:48 | seandaly | y0shu: haven't tried it |
| 11:48 | homunq | mtd: huh? on windows, one press on "windows logo" key brings up start menu |
| 11:48 | mtd | homunq: and I think requiring more than one key to be pressed would make it hard for the kids |
| 11:48 | homunq | mtd: agreed |
| 11:48 | cms | the grab key is important |
| 11:48 | seandaly | combos always more difficult... |
| 11:48 | cms | how do we currently support scrolling? |
| 11:48 | mtd | homunq: exactly, so that's not great if you're running sugar under windows...but maybe we don't care. |
| 11:48 | y0shu | I agree with just one key |
| 11:48 | homunq | which is why I am suggesting "just press the windows/apple/grab key |
| 11:49 | mtd | homunq: that's the best one I've heard bar pressing some modifier key twice in a row. |
| 11:49 | homunq: (super) | |
| 11:49 | y0shu | don't we use the super key (command/windows key) already? |
| 11:49 | homunq | I think that if you're running sugar under windows, "get me out of here" should NOT be simple |
| 11:49 | seandaly | Both Asus EeePC and Acer Aspire One have "home" icon key between Fn and Alt |
| 11:49 | homunq | otherwise, young kids will get out and not be able to get back |
| 11:50 | tomeu | cms: pgf has made advances in the grab key |
| 11:50 | homunq | so from that perspective, taking over the windows key is a feature, not a bug. |
| 11:50 | cms | tomeu: that's good news--it's essential that we have a functional way to scroll in the UI |
| 11:51 | tomeu: it may also be wise to reconsider the scrollbar design, now that we are designing for other platforms | |
| 11:51 | seandaly | I have never used Windows key (on Windows) what is it supposed to do? |
| 11:51 | cms | seandaly: it brings up the start menu |
| 11:51 | seandaly | Ohhhhh |
| 11:51 | homunq | cms: I think we can nevertheless agree that frame key is more vital than grab key. |
| 11:51 | tomeu | cms: other platforms could use the grab key in the same way, but the key won't have a nice hand drawn on it |
| 11:51 | cms | using the windows/apple key is a perfect analogy to bring up the frame |
| 11:51 | y0shu | seandaly: its really useful windows + r brings up command prompt |
| 11:52 | cms | homunq: well, i think we need to enable both |
| 11:52 | y0shu | cms: +1 super key |
| 11:52 | seandaly | y0shu: thanks for tip I use Cygwin on work PC |
| 11:52 | cms | homunq: or, have a different scrollbar solution, which i'd also be in favor of |
| 11:52 | y0shu | seandaly: np |
| 11:52 | homunq | cms: yes, but putting grab in, say, F9, where it will be usually-but-not-always available, would be an acceptable compromise |
| 11:52 | whereas putting frame key there would not. | |
| 11:52 | tomeu | wonder if this isn't the kind of discussion that can be dealt with sending proposals to iaep until people stop finding issues with it |
| 11:52 | cms | homunq: actually, i think grab needs to be close to the trackpad |
| 11:53 | homunq: grab is currently the only proper way to scroll (as designed) | |
| 11:53 | homunq | cms: aak, good point. |
| 11:53 | is grab intended to be sticky? | |
| 11:54 | cms | homunq: not sure, once we have it going we should try different methods |
| 11:54 | homunq | (I'd vote for sticky for the next 1 click) |
| 11:54 | cms | grab might be easier to use if sticky, yes |
| 11:54 | maybe it acts as a toggle | |
| 11:55 | homunq | but for right right now, can we agree to put grab on the back burner and decide frame? |
| 11:55 | I think it is more vital. | |
| 11:55 | cms | yes, sure |
| 11:55 | homunq | so, my suggestion for overall scheme: |
| 11:56 | ctrl for global shortcuts, holding brings up cheat sheet | |
| 11:56 | tomeu | be it sticky or not, perhaps we should have a way to show that it is on |
| 11:56 | homunq | alt for activity-specific, holding brings up transparent letters over toolbar (and toolbar choices) |
| 11:56 | tomeu | some kind of translucent square in a corner |
| 11:56 | homunq | monopoly key for frame |
| 11:57 | f9-f12 available for later semi-important global functions, which should all have other availability too. | |
| 11:57 | f5-f8 available for important activity-specific functions, ditto. | |
| 11:58 | garycmartin | homunq: is your objection to F5-F6 just becase you've used it in develope? |
| 11:58 | homunq | garycmartin: I used it in develop because on the XO keyboard it is supposed to be available for the activity. |
| 11:58 | mtd | homunq: I think we should clarify here we are only talking about using the F-keys in the shell, not grabbing them from activities |
| 11:59 | homunq | I do not know if any other activities use it, but I like the idea of one-button shortcuts for activities. |
| 11:59 | mtd | homunq: the only key grabbed from activities are Super |
| 11:59 | s/are/is/ | |
| 11:59 | homunq: right? | |
| 12:00 | homunq | actually, in my proposal, sugar grabs f1-f4 (almost inevitable) and f9-12. |
| 12:00 | Activities only get f5-f8 | |
| 12:00 | garycmartin | mtd: F1 to F4 are currently already taken |
| 12:01 | mtd | homunq, garycmartin: ok |
| 12:01 | homunq | this is parallel to how it is on the xo keyboard, and to me a decent way to slice the pie. |
| 12:01 | seandaly | homunq: if I understand you, F5-F8 available for each Activity to define? |
| 12:01 | homunq | seandaly: yes. |
| 12:02 | note that the floaty letters from holding alt could include f5-f8 | |
| 12:02 | and that alt-5 through alt-8 could be synonyms, in case someone didn't have f keys. | |
| 12:02 | although... | |
| 12:03 | my other idea had been that alt-numeral was going to be to choose toolbars. | |
| 12:03 | seandaly | not aware of modern machines without F keys at least with blue Fn |
| 12:03 | homunq | although alt-letter would be global, not toolbar-context-dependent. |
| 12:03 | choosing toolbars would just be choosing what's visible. | |
| 12:04 | seandaly: do you think blue-fn alts are discoverable enough for a kid? | |
| 12:04 | seandaly | homunq: No, not at all |
| 12:05 | My kids all struggled with shoft-lock | |
| 12:05 | s/shoft/shift | |
| 12:05 | tomeu | gentlemen, time is running |
| 12:05 | I think we have made good progress on this one | |
| 12:05 | cms | thanks tomeu--should we move on to our next topic? |
| 12:06 | tomeu | perhaps people can send concrete proposals to the mailing list? |
| 12:06 | garycmartin | tomeu: +1 |
| 12:06 | FGrose | To collect community proposals, after/upon posting to iaep: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]/Vision/Proposals |
| 12:06 | y0shu | tomeu: +1 |
| 12:07 | cms | garycmartin: you suggested to talk about the a.sl.o design |
| 12:07 | tomeu | oooh |
| 12:07 | FGrose: that's cool | |
| 12:07 | y0shu | cms: that was me |
| 12:07 | cms | oops, sorry! |
| 12:08 | y0shu | no worries |
| 12:08 | I put up another mock up http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Addons_Portal/Design | |
| 12:08 | and sent it out on the mailing list as well | |
| 12:08 | cms | looking at it now... |
| 12:08 | is this based on eben's earlier mockup? | |
| 12:08 | walterbender | #TOPIC a.sl.o design |
| 12:09 | seandaly | y0shu: it looks good but I do think we should pick from the logos on the logo page |
| 12:09 | y0shu | seandaly: is that not one of them? |
| 12:09 | seandaly | And, we have a concern with harmonizing top menu bar |
| 12:09 | cms | yûshu: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Logo |
| 12:09 | y0shu | that can be changed fairly easily |
| 12:10 | seandaly | y0shu: typography on yours is fatter |
| 12:10 | y0shu | cms: yeah I must have added a stroke to the labs, can change that |
| 12:10 | cms | yOshu, have you seen eben's mockup? if not, i'll ask him to send it out again |
| 12:10 | y0shu | cms: yeah I have seen it |
| 12:11 | cms | it would be a good point of reference as you develop the design |
| 12:11 | seandaly | also (i'm always concerned about first-time visitors) go to sugarlabs.org will be confusing since they assume they are there already |
| 12:11 | garycmartin | y0shu: I'd also stick with standard fonts, unless you're willing to generate images in multi-languages. |
| 12:11 | seandaly | better to say what we say on first page of wiki |
| 12:11 | home | |
| 12:12 | cms | and, on a visual standpoint, my main point is consistency with the identity, meaning using one of the 12 logos, and Helvetica/Arial for typography |
| 12:12 | y0shu | garycmartin: are you talking about the "download and install activities for sugar"? |
| 12:12 | seandaly | visitors need to know how to get to "main page" if lost |
| 12:12 | garycmartin | y0shu: yea. |
| 12:12 | cms | *from a visual standpoint |
| 12:12 | seandaly | cms:+1 important |
| 12:12 | y0shu | cms: I'm using helvetica neu - of course on the web it would be helvetica/arial |
| 12:13 | cms | yes, that's great |
| 12:13 | tomeu | sorry, need to leave. I think both proposals look good enough to replace what we have now, we could then collect feedback and move forward from there. in the future we may be able to do more interesting things like what eben suggested, but right now might be wiser to not change too much the php code and only play with css and the backgrounds png |
| 12:13 | cms | (i think i detect verdana though in areas...) |
| 12:13 | thanks for joining tomeu | |
| 12:13 | y0shu | later tomeu |
| 12:13 | seandaly | bye tomeu |
| 12:14 | cms | yOshu: if you like we could take this offline to go over details |
| 12:14 | tomeu | leaves |
| 12:14 | seandaly | y0shu: keep scenario in mind of arriving at www.sugarlabs.org after Google search, clicking on Activities |
| 12:14 | garycmartin | y0shu: the dotted outlines are a little non-standard, we don't use them anywhere else. Perhaps just go with a solid stroke if you have to have a bounded box. |
| 12:14 | y0shu | seandaly: what do you mean "better to say what we say on first page of wiki" ? |
| 12:15 | seandaly | we have separate window for the moment to mitigate difficulty of returning to homepage |
| 12:15 | y0shu: "home" | |
| 12:16 | y0shu | seandaly: ? |
| 12:16 | garycmartin | seandaly: multiple windows caunsing me more confusion to be honest, I keep discovering extra windows spawned by www.sl.org :-( |
| 12:16 | y0shu | I think the home link is terribly confusing |
| 12:16 | seandaly | top menu bar |
| 12:17 | garycmartin: multiple windows only because nav across 3 sections of site not harmonized | |
| 12:17 | y0shu | garycmartin: I agree, if it's an external link, then maybe open in a new window, but not for our own pages |
| 12:17 | cms | everyone, i'm going to have to leave soon--y0shu, we can discuss later via email if you want |
| 12:17 | seandaly | multiple windows bad for Browse on XO too |
| 12:18 | y0shu | cms: alright, take care |
| 12:18 | seandaly | y0shu: I'll be happy to go with 1 window when all content on 3 sections available from any section |
| 12:18 | cms | thanks for joining everyone! i'll send out an email about our next meeting |
| 12:18 | seandaly | cms: bye |
| 12:18 | y0shu | seandaly: I think the wiki and home page have huge usability issues concerning navigation |
| 12:18 | walterbender | cms: please #endmeeting |
| 12:18 | cms | #endmeeting |