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#sugar-meeting, 2009-03-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
10:09 cms who do we have here for the design meeting?
10:09 y0shu - Josh
10:09 garycmartin raises hand
10:10 cms great
10:10 let's give tomeu and eben a few more mins to join
10:10 garycmartin Sure.
10:10 walterbender tomeu had been on #sugar
10:11 cms: a little topic while we are waiting...
10:11 cms sure
10:11 walterbender I think it would be great to be able to scatter around the wiki more graphical elements based on the logo
10:12 cms walter: thanks for the reminder
10:12 walterbender as headers for different topics/teams, etc
10:12 maybe we could have a request process to generate them?
10:12 any reason not to just use Trac?
10:13 cms i suppose we could, if it would help
10:13 walterbender anything to help in terms of process
10:13 cms i can work on the logo extensions
10:13 yes, agreed
10:13 walterbender so if we had on the logo page: if you need an extention, file a ticket...
10:14 cms we need to be careful not to overextend it
10:14 we should choose the applications carefully
10:14 walterbender cms: exactly... this way we can keep track of what we are doing
10:15 cms sounds good--can someone set us up on trac?
10:15 y0shu That's a good idea
10:15 I'm a little new to trac though
10:16 cms well, perhaps we should start the meeting and figure out trac later--eben may also have experience with it
10:16 walterbender y0shu: it is pretty easy once you get past the initial hurdle...
10:16 garycmartin Theres a design component there already to file against.
10:16 cms for today, i thought we could start a discussion about the home view
10:17 there are different opinions about what it should be
10:17 y0shu walterbender: It seems like it would be, I'm just getting my feet wet with SVN right now on another project as well
10:17 walterbender cms: sorry. can I add one more topic? can we also talk a little about keyboard shortcuts at some point?
10:17 cms sure
10:18 for the UI?
10:18 y0shu cms: sounds good, can we squeeze in aslo design possibly at the end?
10:18 walterbender cms: yes. it is very important on non-XO platforms
10:18 cms yes, that's true
10:19 walterbender cms: so #TOPIC homeview?
10:19 cms ok, should we start with home, then move on to keyboard shortcuts, and finally talk about the aslo design?
10:19 thanks! ;)
10:19 #TOPIC homeview
10:19 ?
10:19 walterbender cms: that is correct...
10:19 cms great--still getting the hang of this
10:20 well,
10:20 as you know there have been recent discussion about home
10:20 originally, the ring came about as a solution to move activities from the frame into the home view
10:21 walterbender circles and squares in both cases
10:21 no triangles :)
10:21 cms it's limitation (as far as how many activities it could hold) was a benefit, since we wanted children to think about certain activities as favorites
10:21 those were the ones represented in the ring
10:21 walterbender kandinsky would be happy :)
10:22 cms (yes--no triangles!)
10:22 other activities would be shown in the list view, which acted also as an activity "manager"
10:22 walterbender cms: the notion of collections of activities is more powerful than just favorites
10:23 cms walterbender: yes, that's a good point to raise here--we're beginning to find that the favorites model may not be as successful as we had hoped
10:23 walterbender cms: since activities work in concert with each other, there are reasons (pedagogical and otherwise) to organize them
10:23 y0shu walterbender: I think it would be interesting to group them into smaller collections - based on category
10:24 cms based on category, or perhaps even better, based on projects
10:24 walterbender y0shu: I am not sure about by category as much as by task
10:24 e.g., this week, we are working on a newsletter, so let's group Record, Write, etc.
10:24 cms it would be great, for instance, it i could create a homeview with activities pertaining only to a project
10:24 y0shu yeah, category isn't the right word
10:25 cms so--
10:25 this is a fundamental question i think, do we want a single view for all activities,
10:25 or is there a benefit in only showing a select few?
10:25 after all, if i can see everything at once, i may not need organization by project/task
10:26 walterbender cms: I think there is real benefit in being able to show a select few...
10:26 cms: from the teacher's perspective, being able to limit the scope for a time is useful
10:26 cms walterbender: are you thinking from a pedagogical standpoint, that teachers could put together the activities for children to use?
10:27 walterbender cms: whether it is the teacher or the students, either way, yes
10:27 a dynamic grouping...
10:27 garycmartin cms: a select few is beneficial, you may have many installed for rare use, and just want to use a simple working set on a day to day basis.
10:27 cms that seems very powerful
10:27 walterbender when I go to math class, these 5 activities are on the home view...
10:28 when I am hanging with my friends, we have these 20 games
10:28 cms but if you could essentially filter your view by project, it also makes me want a single view with all available activities
10:28 so i have somewhere to go if the activity i'm looking for is not shown in my project
10:28 to jump to the chase:
10:29 when we met with nicholas last year, he wasn't in favor of the ring, for the limitations that we precisely saw as its benefits earlier
10:30 walterbender: yes, and this also is perhaps a way to introduce the notion of bulletin boards
10:30 perhaps that is what they are--filter for activities, with (perhaps) the ability to also show objects one has created
10:31 i think that to enable that kind of a view in home would be a great way to think about extending it in a meaningful way
10:31 and i think it relies on two things: (1) the filtered view, by project of task, and (2) a single view of all activities
10:32 if we can find a visual mechanism by which to do both, i think we would have a more useful home view than is currently the case
10:32 walterbender a problem with filtering is the name...
10:32 cms garycmartin: i agree
10:32 walterbender kids might know the nickname of a friend, but not know the name of an activity
10:33 people don't seem to understand filtering in the neighborhood view or Journal
10:33 maybe it is just that we haven't done it quite right...
10:33 cms walterbender: do children use search in those views?
10:34 walterbender cms: not in my experience, except by accident, in which case, they don't understand where everything went
10:34 cms walterbender: yes, i think we still haven't gotten it quite right--groups isn't there yet, and neighborhood needs more work as well
10:35 walterbender: that's something we should work on
10:35 there probably is a solution at a technical level
10:35 making the relationship between your query and the view more clear
10:36 walterbender I think we need to lead by design on this issue
10:36 cms right--when i say technical, i mean at a usability level
10:37 we should get back to groups and neighborhood, since there are many issues to discuss in both views
10:37 i'd suggest talking about those in our next meeting
10:37 i'd want eben to be there, as well, since he has many thoughts on how to improve both views
10:37 but for now, back to home!
10:38 i agree with grouping activities by project--that would be an effective way to extend home
10:38 walterbender cms: I only brought it up to question the idea of filters as a major component of the design
10:39 cms: one "simple" approach is just to extend the star system to more tags
10:39 cms walterbender: yes, you're right to question filters, but i think that there likely is a usability-based solution for how to make them more understandable
10:40 walterbender then the favorites menu simple becomes which tag you are interested in
10:40 garycmartin cms: If anything, gadget seems to be leaading us towards favorites.
10:40 walterbender or launching an activity brings up the other activities in that tag group
10:40 cms from your experience observing children, do they understand starring?
10:40 and the relationship between list and ring view?
10:40 walterbender cms: I cannot say... not initially
10:41 but they learn that one pretty quickly
10:41 cms i see
10:41 and after they learn it, how do they use the two views?
10:41 i've seen many examples of "overloaded" rings
10:42 walterbender :(
10:42 cms which would lead me to think that the desire is to have all activities represented in home
10:42 walterbender cms: I am not sure
10:42 garycmartin cms: I was thinking about trying to improve making favorites, as a partial solution. Best I have so far is for one object in home (ring) to be a [+] type icon that presents a list of all activities not favorited so far.
10:43 cms garycmartin: or that could be in the toolbar
10:43 the sentiment is what i'm getting at--
10:43 is there a view of *all* activities within the informal view (not list view)
10:44 garycmartin cms: toolbar is to separate, putting it in the ring context was important (I thought)
10:44 walterbender maybe something as simple as most recent?
10:44 cms "most recent" could be one category,
10:44 others could be your projects
10:44 and "favorites" could be yet another
10:45 it seems like we do need filters (however they are represented)
10:45 garycmartin cms: sounds like we are making things more complicated, and not less...
10:45 cms garycmartin: yes, and no
10:45 yes, more complicated because we are introducing other forms of categorization
10:46 but i think there is also an opportunity to simply
10:46 simplify
10:46 walterbender cms: filters that run behind the scenes as opposed to my typing into a search box
10:46 cms walterbender: yes, that would be more intuitive (and we need to figure out how to represent them best)
10:46 seandaly sorry I'm late evreyone technical difficulties
10:47 cms simplicity could come from a clearer relationship b/w ring and list view
10:47 hi sean
10:47 seandaly hi cms!
10:47 walterbender but in any case, the idea that favorites is not different layouts, but rather different content
10:47 cms we are just discussing the home view in the UI
10:47 yes, different content--i agree
10:48 seandaly home view very important
10:48 cms though i think there is still a question about the ring being unable to hold beyond a certain number of activities
10:48 let me throw out an idea;
10:48 seandaly cms: an inevitable problem the question is how to over the limit gracefully
10:49 cms what if we did go with freeform view as the default, but added the ability to organize your icons either radially or in a grid?
10:49 walterbender cms: I don't see any merit in freeform
10:49 why not revert to a list if the ring gets too full?
10:49 seandaly if freeform, do icons ever move by themselves? and can icons be placed (anchored) by the user?
10:50 walterbender but have different filters for the ring, to keep the numbers down
10:50 cms icons are placed by the user
10:50 but i like where walter is going with that
10:50 ring works up to a certain number of activities, after which one could resort to another view
10:50 walterbender but moving the icons is orthogonal to the issue of the initial layout by the system
10:50 seandaly walterbender: if freeform automatic when ring not enough, could be extremely disorienting/worrying
10:50 garycmartin cms: freeform is back to shuffling desktop mess about all over again.
10:51 walterbender seandaly: I was thinking ring or list
10:51 seandaly how about concentric rings like Saturn?
10:51 cms you are right--that was my initial reaction to freeform
10:51 the one thing it has going for it is scalability
10:51 walterbender cms: also, it is difficult to scan
10:51 seandaly rectangular screen so rings beyond first one like arcs
10:51 cms so, generally, do we feel the ring is working well?
10:51 walterbender cms: also, it is different on every desktop, making it difficult for th e teacher
10:52 cms: as long as it isn't too full
10:52 cms well, the aspect of being able to personalize your desktop is something that i found attractive about freeform view
10:52 walterbender cms: so I think our strategy could be how to keep it from becoming too full
10:52 seandaly confession: I have almost the same aActivities on my 2 XOs but the rings are different and I wish I could sync them even alpha sort
10:52 cms but it's true that that comes at the expense of clutter and having to move icons around the desktop
10:53 walterbender cms: why cannot you use the ring as a starting place for reorganizing?
10:53 y0shu cms: I think the ring works fine for now, but if we get to the point where we have a huge amount of activities available, there will be problems
10:53 mtd seandaly, walterbender : the ring should alpha sort or something.  That'd be trivial to implement.
10:53 seandaly mtd: at least optional then my two XOs would show the same Activities in same place
10:53 cms another solution that has been mentioned is a formal grid view
10:53 walterbender I agree that the constant reordering is a problem...
10:53 cms how does everyone feel about that?
10:54 in my opinion it doesn't sit as well with the other views...
10:54 seandaly I must say I don't like freeform :-(
10:54 walterbender visually, I prefer the ring and a list to a grid
10:54 mtd walterbender +1
10:54 seandaly Visually there is already lots of appropriate freeform such as network view
10:54 garycmartin walterbender: +1
10:55 seandaly My idea for concentric rings: ((O))
10:55 walterbender cms: I have always loved the idea of the rings around activities in the neighborhood view
10:55 cms alright, so it sounds like freeform is not a winner ;)
10:56 walterbender: i agree, that's where ring came from initially
10:56 walterbender cms: maybe the "all" view could be a collection of small circles?
10:56 seandaly walterbender: +1 and it scales well with little people superimposed on 2nd ring
10:56 cms and i also think it is a strong iconic visual for sugar
10:56 seandaly cms: very, very strong
10:56 child in the center
10:56 cms walterbender: that's a great idea, it could be a grid of smaller circles
10:57 homunq a spiral
10:57 walterbender cms: but maybe rather than the unclustered icons being random, they could be in a big circle?
10:57 tomeu sorry, had fallen asleep :(
10:57 walterbender homunq: I like spirals too...
10:58 seandaly cms, walterbender: other rings interesting idea
10:58 homunq I mean, smaller circles of various sizes, in descending order of size, each tangent to an inner circle.
10:58 seandaly hi Tomeu, I know this problem :D
10:58 walterbender homunq: but if we can keep to one basic design element, I think it is cleaner
10:58 homunq it would end up looking somewhat nautilus-like, though not really.
10:58 seandaly I have a question:
10:58 cms hi tomeu!
10:59 seandaly many years ago I used a shareware, a list launcher
10:59 on my desktop I kept like 6 icons
10:59 by clicking anywhere, a list of apps opened up & I dragged & released to launch it
11:00 tomeu waves and reads backlog
11:00 homunq walterbender: that idea is all circles. Circles are still the basic design. kid in the global center; favorites, recent, and tasks as sub-centers; and activities around the smaller circles.
11:00 seandaly Could be organized way to access seldom-used Activites and avoid clutter yet 1 click-drag-release
11:00 cms homunq: that is generally correct, although the other views are essentially freeform views comprised of clusters
11:01 home could potentially be similar, as well
11:01 y0shu seandaly: I like that idea
11:01 walterbender cms: I'd argue you have the sign bit wrong...
11:01 the other views should be more like the home view in my view :)
11:02 seandaly in fact that shareware allowed editing of submenus too, I had over 50 apps 1 click away and 6 icons on the desktop
11:02 walterbender nieghorhood view starts to sing when it starts making circles
11:02 cms walterbender: currently, they are!
11:02 i think either approach (ring/freeform) feels consistent with the visual principles of the UI
11:02 homunq have people talked about making it dance like the MacOS dock does?
11:03 seandaly homunq: costly in processing cycles?
11:03 cms homonq: we're still figuring out the high-level
11:03 walterbender cms: maybe the idea as things organize, they form circles is the underlying principle
11:03 homunq seandaly: that would have been my instinct, but just checking.
11:03 cms walterbender: that makes sense
11:04 question: how have kids responded to the freeform view?
11:04 seandaly Ringling Bros & Barnum&Bailey's 3-Ring Sugar
11:04 walterbender cms: here is an idea
11:05 seandaly tomeu: that's a famous circus each one had a ring, then when they joined up rather than a big ring they each kept theirs
11:05 homunq my daughter likes circle better. She's 4.
11:05 walterbender what if the unorganized data where in an orbit at the edges of the screen and organized data is in a tigher orbit in the center
11:05 you could drag things in from the outer orbit
11:05 homunq walterbender: ooh, I like
11:05 seandaly walterbender: that's what I mean by Saturn (((O)))
11:05 walterbender or small circle clusters could form in the center area as well
11:06 cms walterbender: interesting thought
11:06 seandaly Center ring could stay tight
11:06 walterbender cms: might be too busy... I don't know
11:06 seandaly leaving room for outer rings
11:06 cms walterbender: but, what does the distinction mean to the user?
11:06 on a functional level?
11:06 seandaly cms: could be how often each is used
11:07 walterbender cms: in the neighborhood view, the same as the current clusters mean
11:07 cms i think simplicity is key
11:07 i'd still favor a simple ring
11:07 but:
11:07 seandaly cms: for sure must be instantly understandable :-)
11:07 cms the objections to freeform are that it makes the view more cumbersome?
11:08 what about the added personalization of your home view?
11:08 seandaly cms: needle-in-haystack aspect
11:08 y0shu cms: I think personalization of home would be a really useful feature
11:08 walterbender cms: I think that letting people rearrange is OK
11:08 homunq OK, here's one. You have one central ring, default to kid in the middle. Kid is synonym for recent...
11:09 tomeu one of the things I like most in the sugar design, is that I'm not forced to take on tasks that bring no value to me. ordering icons in the desktop is one such thing
11:09 walterbender cms: but I think people are more interested in other types of personalization
11:09 garycmartin cms: personalization for me comes from the activities I choose to favorite for frequent use. I did like the idea of the different layout primitives, but only spent time in circle/spiral/sunflower
11:09 homunq ... on the left, you have larger icons in grid arrangement that doesn't bump ring, representing tasks/tags. One of those is a star for favorites...
11:09 tomeu that's why my desktops are a mess, and prefer to delete stuff instead of putting some order
11:10 but would be better to me to just leave everything there and just search what I'm looking for
11:10 cms garycmartin: i can get behind personalization being the choice of what you display in the ring--
11:10 homunq on the right, you have a more complete set, small icons, in grid arrangement, not bumping ring.
11:10 cms my only concern is that kids understand and use that feature
11:10 tomeu though some tag-assisted browsing would be nice as well
11:10 homunq when you click on icon on the left, it replaces kid in middle, and you get a new set in the main circle.
11:10 the end.
11:10 seandaly Another approach could be to keep alternate rings small, too small to choose each Activity, but you choose a different ring like a different planet, it replaces the current ring and you have a different group of Activities
11:11 you move from one active ring to another
11:11 walterbender cms: I think the idea of a smaller circle represent the current set of activities is the key
11:11 seandaly the inactive ones are tiny
11:11 homunq oh, also, when you start a new activity, it picks up whatever tag is currently centered.
11:12 cms walterbender: that seems to be where this is heading...
11:12 homunq The logic of my idea is that you do not clutter the view with extra rings, but provide an easy graphical way to get different sets in your main ring.
11:12 garycmartin A lot of this is getting more cluttered/complicated and not less :-(
11:13 cms i think it's good to think about other options, but to me ring and freeform both be the most pure and simplest solutions thus far
11:13 *both are
11:13 seandaly cms: they are both fine for small number of icons problem is how to scale
11:13 tomeu wonder how feasible would be to produce a soas image with an alternative design and test both with children
11:13 cms it sounds like there is general agreement that ring is a good solution
11:14 garycmartin cms: ring +1
11:14 seandaly tomeu: why not mock it up in presentation software
11:14 walterbender seandaly: before you joined, we talked about the favorites menu as being about content, not layout
11:14 cms tomeu: testing is important
11:14 tomeu seandaly: if that gives us the info we want, awesome
11:14 homunq seandaly: switching rings, that is my idea. Only the choices for ring-to-switch-to are central icons, not graphically little rings.
11:14 cms tomeu: i don't think we even have to create new views--
11:15 tomeu about why we have seen so many overcrowded rings, I have some background that may help
11:15 seandaly switching rings an interesting path
11:15 cms i'd be curious to simply test ring+favorites and freeform view, and see which kids tend to understand more readily
11:15 tomeu: that would be great
11:15 tomeu at the very start of the favorites thing, new activities appeared in the list and users had to go there and star them if they wanted to appear in the ring
11:15 walterbender tomeu: which was definitely a problem
11:16 tomeu so people saw that they had a home view with only a XO icon, and the bottom frame was empty
11:16 and coincidently, OLPC had declared in the few months before that no activities would be supported, and produced build without activities
11:16 cms tomeu: that is a problem
11:16 tomeu that confused people back then, and people thought that the same had happened
11:17 again
11:17 then we made that all new activities were starred by default
11:17 cms tomeu: couldn't one initially have the core ~12 activities in the ring, and the rest in list view?
11:17 seandaly +1 core Activities (now how to pick them)
11:17 tomeu cms: that's what should actually happen, but authors of live images had made all of them favorites, because that's the default
11:18 because we ship a file that says which activities should be favorite by default
11:18 but in the case of live images, that doesn't happen
11:18 so may be more a distribution issue than a coding or design problem
11:18 homunq I agree that we should have a cure for ring clutter - some way to access things-not-in-the-ring from home view
11:19 either small icons on the right, or some kind of + icon which gives you a menu, or something.
11:19 cms tomeu: that's good to know, and reassuring
11:19 seandaly I have 29 Activities in the ring of the XO in front of me & worry if I banish it, will the Activity go away?
11:19 tomeu homunq: the search field helped there, but people typed stuff without knowing, then would be brought to an empty list view
11:19 cms how do people feel about conducting observations with both ring and freeform view?
11:19 homunq then you could drag and drop from and to there to set starred status (or, if you were switching rings, to tag)
11:19 tomeu and thought that they had lost their activities and XO icon
11:19 walterbender here is a little thing: maybe list view should be relabled
11:19 tomeu that's why it's disabled now
11:19 walterbender it should be "all view"
11:20 homunq "view all
11:20 "
11:20 walterbender it appears as a list, but more important, you "view all"
11:20 homunq verbs not nouns
11:20 cms "view all" is much better than list, i agree
11:20 y0shu "view all" +1
11:21 walterbender that may help in terms of people not knowing where their other activities might be
11:21 garycmartin walterbender: "view all" yes, like that.
11:21 seandaly "view all" very clear
11:21 tomeu maybe there should be a link from the home view palette named "More activities" that took to the list view, and in the list view a link in the bottom that took to activities.sl.o (or the school server)
11:21 cms who within sugarlabs is actually in touch with schoolchildren using sugar?
11:21 tomeu cms: caroline and mel
11:22 seandaly tomeu: more Activities might imply other than those currently visible, not "all"
11:22 cms great--could we put together a short test protocol and gather 20-30 participants?
11:22 tomeu are doing tests with 0.84
11:22 people from deployments are normally using 0.82 and older
11:22 cms tomeu: that's terrific
11:22 walterbender cms: the problem is, most regular users in schools are still using the old home view...
11:22 tomeu seandaly: yeah, because all activities are in activities.sl.o ;)
11:22 cms walterbender: the original home view?
11:23 walterbender they are just starting the transition to the new sugar in teh major deployments
11:23 homunq Is anybody besides seandaly and me excited about switching rings?
11:23 cms i see
11:23 walterbender but many of the pilots have newer bits
11:23 tomeu seandaly: don't really like my suggestion, but maybe we need some crazy brainstorming like that
11:23 homunq: concentric rings?
11:23 homunq no
11:23 one ring
11:24 seandaly walterbender: by old home view you mean...?
11:24 homunq some icons on the side
11:24 cms if tomeu and caroline could help us run through a few observations of ring and freeform view, i think we would have a more solid basis for discussion
11:24 homunq icons/tags
11:24 walterbender seandaly: icons on the bottom of the frame, paged in
11:24 tomeu I would like to understand better Wade's suggestion
11:24 homunq if you choose one, it replaces central icon, and the set of activities in ring switches.
11:24 cms tomeu: if you are able to help with that, we could work through a short test sequence together
11:24 tomeu I think search and tags could help a lot here and in all views
11:25 seandaly I seem to remember a test protocol for kids that turned it into a recognition game
11:25 tomeu cms: sure, they are very approachable
11:25 walterbender homunq: I think I need to see some mock ups to understand it
11:25 tomeu seandaly: recognition game?
11:25 homunq walterbender: OK, I'll do that tomorrow
11:25 seandaly Kids were told to look for the rabbit then the cat, then shown 3 or 4 mockups and timed for how quick they could find the 2
11:25 walterbender tomeu: yes, we haven't really talked about wade's suggestion
11:25 cms tomeu: excellent--let's work through the details offline via iaep
11:26 tomeu cms: sounds good
11:26 walterbender tomeu: but I could see it being connected to the ideas we have been discussing
11:26 cms great--for now, i'd suggest we leave the topic and work on our observations
11:26 seandaly But that test was testing more color combinations than icon groupings
11:26 cms so we can move on to the other topics
11:27 tomeu seandaly: but that would help only with discoverability and not with general usability, right?
11:27 walterbender ok
11:27 seandaly tomeu: yes
11:27 homunq my suggestion is inspired by wade's
11:27 tomeu yeah, I love search UIs with tags, but there are miriad of ways to expose that in the UI
11:27 homunq but an attempt to be a bit simpler graphically
11:27 cms homunq: it would be great if you could create a sketch for us, so we can evaluate it better
11:27 homunq (not have multiple rings visible at once)
11:27 tomeu and it will work or not depending on those details
11:28 #ACTION homunq to get a box of crayons and draw for us ;)
11:28 cms ok--should we move on to keyboard shortcuts?
11:28 seandaly tomeu: I might draw too
11:29 tomeu seandaly: sounds good, maybe having several proposals would help here
11:30 homunq wonders where is eben...
11:30 cms everyone, let's move on to the next topic!
11:30 homunq would like to have svg versions of eben's existing mockups to start from
11:30 walterbender is there anyone here who understands the constraints on assigning keyboard shortcuts?
11:30 homunq can work it out.
11:31 walterbender #TOPIC keyboard shortcuts
11:31 my big issue is that there are no dedicated frame and journal keys
11:32 cms walterbender: that is a big problem--frame especially needs a shortcut
11:32 walterbender and having to type alt-shift-... is too difficult to remember or execute
11:32 cannot we just assign F5 and F6?
11:32 the same way we have cooped F1-F4
11:32 garycmartin walterbender: +1 (barring tech issues)
11:32 y0shu are the function keys available on netbooks? like the classmate?
11:33 seandaly that's what function keys are for...
11:33 homunq thinks we should assign alt and ctrl to application-specific and sugar-wide.
11:33 tomeu homunq: also to F* keys?
11:33 homunq develop already uses f5-f8
11:33 walterbender homunq: I think that is the intention of alt vs cntrl...
11:34 seandaly my Asus EeePC has function keys
11:34 walterbender homunq: but I don't know that it is consistently applied
11:34 tomeu I'm a bit concerned about the discoverability of those keys, a very big percentage of users don't get to know any accelerator
11:34 seandaly So does my Acer Aspire One
11:34 homunq of course not. one activity is not important here, just saying.
11:34 y0shu probably safe to use them then
11:34 walterbender classmate does, in combination with fn
11:34 homunq tomeu++
11:34 seandaly I "tried" F1 the first time on non-XO
11:35 homunq I think that f9-f12 are safer
11:35 tomeu so if our UI depends more than the others on people using keys like that...
11:35 cms what do we use the ESC key for, generally? could that be used to bring up the frame?
11:35 y0shu fn is kind of difficult for kids I think
11:35 homunq an xo has the frame key. Anybody else is not using them for brightness and volume.
11:35 tomeu cms: I think that Esc is used in general to dismiss stuff
11:35 walterbender tomeu: I agree about discoverability, but it is a problem with alt-shift-f as well
11:35 seandaly y0shu: in my experience kids bang on keys until something happens
11:35 tomeu walterbender: yeah, dropping the modifiers help there, but may not be enough
11:35 homunq my daughter uses alt-esc. never uses the exit from the toolbar.
11:36 seandaly I like sequential F1-2-3-4-5-6
11:36 cms ESC might work for the frame, since it is taking you out of the current view...
11:36 walterbender tomeu: we have a general problem with non-XOs re the view keys not being discoverable...
11:36 cms another possibility could be ALT+SPACE?
11:36 seandaly if F1-2-3-4-9-10 wondering what the missing ones do
11:36 tomeu walterbender: yeah, that's what I was referring to
11:36 y0shu seandaly: yeah, I've seen that, but two keys at once,  fn+1 for example is harder for them to see a pattern
11:36 cms though i think the function keys make the most sense
11:36 homunq cms: naked ESC is used by too many applications to be free for us.
11:37 seandaly clear that combos always less intuitive
11:37 walterbender tomeu: but once they discover them, adding more should be easier for them
11:37 cms homunq: i see...
11:37 homunq seandaly: F1-2-3-4 11-12
11:37 middle gap is available to activities
11:37 y0shu seandaly: if most netbooks have function keys though, its probably fine to use them
11:37 tomeu walterbender: yeah, wonder if the help activity could with that
11:37 homunq this is most consistent with xo keyboard.
11:37 seandaly homunq: same Activities, or depends?
11:38 tomeu I remember that some programs in the old macos that used lots of accelerators had a window that displayed the keyboard and the function of each key
11:38 homunq seandaly: ??
11:38 tomeu but on macs, there was a limited number of keyboards
11:38 homunq I definitely ++ to discoverable shortcuts.
11:38 walterbender tomeu: if they ever discover the frame, we could add the keyboard shortcuts to the hover menus
11:38 seandaly F5-6-7-8-9-10 Activites, but always the same ones, or depends on contexte or installation?
11:38 tomeu we could have an activity that taught those keys, then rely on some kids teaching others about them
11:39 walterbender: that's very important
11:39 homunq My dream is that just holding alt puts up a grey letter in front of each toolbox item
11:39 tomeu walterbender: we have talked before but never managed to
11:39 homunq and toolbox set
11:39 tomeu homunq: that's interesting ;)
11:39 cms homunq: that would be great--can we do that?
11:39 seandaly tomeu:from MacOS v7 keyboard was "live" I think, hit a key & screen showed which
11:40 homunq just holding control brings up a cheat sheet after slight delay
11:40 tomeu seandaly: we could do something like that
11:40 homunq with copy, paste, view source, screenshot, etc.
11:40 global stuff.
11:40 tomeu ooh
11:40 homunq: I like that a lot
11:41 homunq next activity, previous activity.
11:41 cms that's a great idea
11:41 walterbender so we have two action items emerging: a way to invoke a cheat sheet and a remapping of some Sugar keys to F keys
11:41 tomeu but would help only with accelerators that have a modifier
11:41 seandaly My point of view is: a combo key should react somehow (even blinky gray dot) to show it does "something"
11:41 homunq this preserves ctrl-x ctrl-c ctrl-z which is important to me.
11:42 tomeu seandaly: that's part of a general problem with the lack of immediate feedback in the UI
11:42 cms what is holding CTRL for a few secs brings up the frame?
11:42 seandaly I would not recommend changing ctrl-x and c and z
11:42 homunq and v of course
11:42 walterbender cms: I like that idea
11:42 seandaly homunq: +1
11:42 mtd homunq: +1
11:43 walterbender cms: access to the frame is paramount
11:43 homunq walterbender: in my scheme, that would be F12
11:43 walterbender homunq: maybe both?
11:43 cms yes, i agree--and holding ALT could bring up the key commands
11:43 seandaly How to restore frame is not sure how I got it then it autohides?
11:43 cms homunq: F12 sounds great, too
11:43 seandaly s/is/if
11:43 mtd (frame could also come up with both shift keys, or ctrl twice in quick succession)
11:44 homunq walterbender: but I am reserving hold-ctrl for cheat sheet
11:44 walterbender homunq: OK
11:44 homunq of ctrl combos.
11:44 seandaly Careful double-shift often used for alternate keysets e.g. Cyrillic
11:44 garycmartin homunq: Watch out for using end F keys for critical functions, they don't exist on all keyboards...
11:44 mtd seandaly: really?  on windows the default is Alt + LShift
11:44 homunq garycmartin: :( did not realize
11:44 mtd garycmartin, homunq: it's always scary to use F-keys
11:45 walterbender F12 is special on the classmate, one level of indirection :(
11:45 homunq walterbender: and home?
11:45 mtd garycmartin, homunq: better to re-use a modifier, like super
11:45 walterbender checking
11:45 homunq home/end are pretty usable, if they're there.
11:45 garycmartin homunq: F12 is eject on many older Mac keyboards.
11:45 seandaly mtd: I haven't typed on a Russian keyboard in Windows since 2002 so maybe changed since
11:46 mtd homunq: they're also pretty standard text-editing keys.
11:46 homunq mtd: true.
11:46 mtd seandaly: yeah that's definitely the XP default "switch keyboard config" key chord (Alt + LShift)
11:46 y0shu garycmartin: yeah F12 is eject, but I don't think it would matter if you were running sugar
11:46 garycmartin mtd: F keys scary +1
11:46 walterbender homunq: home is labeled on the arrow key... not sure how you access it
11:46 seandaly on Mac, F12 is also default for Dashboard widgets
11:46 homunq ah
11:47 what about grab/monopoly keys?
11:47 garycmartin y0shu: but the key isn't marked f12, it can have a little eject graphic on it.
11:47 homunq that would be a logical place for frame
11:47 mtd homunq: those are super - could be used, yeah, but not just one press on windows :)
11:47 homunq and honestly I am not attached to grab.
11:47 garycmartin y0shu: and some don't even have a key at all!
11:47 y0shu seandaly: if you're running sugar on a stick it wouldn't bring up dashboad
11:47 *dashboard
11:48 mtd homunq: holding keys isn't great for the frame because one wants to be able to bring it up quickly with a minimum of delay
11:48 seandaly y0shu: haven't tried it
11:48 homunq mtd: huh? on windows, one press on "windows logo" key brings up start menu
11:48 mtd homunq: and I think requiring more than one key to be pressed would make it hard for the kids
11:48 homunq mtd: agreed
11:48 cms the grab key is important
11:48 seandaly combos always more difficult...
11:48 cms how do we currently support scrolling?
11:48 mtd homunq: exactly, so that's not great if you're running sugar under windows...but maybe we don't care.
11:48 y0shu I agree with just one key
11:48 homunq which is why I am suggesting "just press the windows/apple/grab key
11:49 mtd homunq: that's the best one I've heard bar pressing some modifier key twice in a row.
11:49 homunq: (super)
11:49 y0shu don't we use the super key (command/windows key) already?
11:49 homunq I think that if you're running sugar under windows, "get me out of here" should NOT be simple
11:49 seandaly Both Asus EeePC and Acer Aspire One have "home" icon key between Fn and Alt
11:49 homunq otherwise, young kids will get out and not be able to get back
11:50 tomeu cms: pgf has made advances in the grab key
11:50 homunq so from that perspective, taking over the windows key is a feature, not a bug.
11:50 cms tomeu: that's good news--it's essential that we have a functional way to scroll in the UI
11:51 tomeu: it may also be wise to reconsider the scrollbar design, now that we are designing for other platforms
11:51 seandaly I have never used Windows key (on Windows) what is it supposed to do?
11:51 cms seandaly: it brings up the start menu
11:51 seandaly Ohhhhh
11:51 homunq cms: I think we can nevertheless agree that frame key is more vital than grab key.
11:51 tomeu cms: other platforms could use the grab key in the same way, but the key won't have a nice hand drawn on it
11:51 cms using the windows/apple key is a perfect analogy to bring up the frame
11:51 y0shu seandaly: its really useful  windows + r brings up command prompt
11:52 cms homunq: well, i think we need to enable both
11:52 y0shu cms: +1  super key
11:52 seandaly y0shu: thanks for tip I use Cygwin on work PC
11:52 cms homunq: or, have a different scrollbar solution, which i'd also be in favor of
11:52 y0shu seandaly: np
11:52 homunq cms: yes, but putting grab in, say, F9, where it will be usually-but-not-always available, would be an acceptable compromise
11:52 whereas putting frame key there would not.
11:52 tomeu wonder if this isn't the kind of discussion that can be dealt with sending proposals to iaep until people stop finding issues with it
11:52 cms homunq: actually, i think grab needs to be close to the trackpad
11:53 homunq: grab is currently the only proper way to scroll (as designed)
11:53 homunq cms: aak, good point.
11:53 is grab intended to be sticky?
11:54 cms homunq: not sure, once we have it going we should try different methods
11:54 homunq (I'd vote for sticky for the next 1 click)
11:54 cms grab might be easier to use if sticky, yes
11:54 maybe it acts as a toggle
11:55 homunq but for right right now, can we agree to put grab on the back burner and decide frame?
11:55 I think it is more vital.
11:55 cms yes, sure
11:55 homunq so, my suggestion for overall scheme:
11:56 ctrl for global shortcuts, holding brings up cheat sheet
11:56 tomeu be it sticky or not, perhaps we should have a way to show that it is on
11:56 homunq alt for activity-specific, holding brings up transparent letters over toolbar (and toolbar choices)
11:56 tomeu some kind of translucent square in a corner
11:56 homunq monopoly key for frame
11:57 f9-f12 available for later semi-important global functions, which should all have other availability too.
11:57 f5-f8 available for important activity-specific functions, ditto.
11:58 garycmartin homunq: is your objection to F5-F6 just becase you've used it in develope?
11:58 homunq garycmartin: I used it in develop because on the XO keyboard it is supposed to be available for the activity.
11:58 mtd homunq: I think we should clarify here we are only talking about using the F-keys in the shell, not grabbing them from activities
11:59 homunq I do not know if any other activities use it, but I like the idea of one-button shortcuts for activities.
11:59 mtd homunq: the only key grabbed from activities are Super
11:59 s/are/is/
11:59 homunq: right?
12:00 homunq actually, in my proposal, sugar grabs f1-f4 (almost inevitable) and f9-12.
12:00 Activities only get f5-f8
12:00 garycmartin mtd: F1 to F4 are currently already taken
12:01 mtd homunq, garycmartin: ok
12:01 homunq this is parallel to how it is on the xo keyboard, and to me a decent way to slice the pie.
12:01 seandaly homunq: if I understand you, F5-F8 available for each Activity to define?
12:01 homunq seandaly: yes.
12:02 note that the floaty letters from holding alt could include f5-f8
12:02 and that alt-5 through alt-8 could be synonyms, in case someone didn't have f keys.
12:02 although...
12:03 my other idea had been that alt-numeral was going to be to choose toolbars.
12:03 seandaly not aware of modern machines without F keys at least with blue Fn
12:03 homunq although alt-letter would be global, not toolbar-context-dependent.
12:03 choosing toolbars would just be choosing what's visible.
12:04 seandaly: do you think blue-fn alts are discoverable enough for a kid?
12:04 seandaly homunq: No, not at all
12:05 My kids all struggled with shoft-lock
12:05 s/shoft/shift
12:05 tomeu gentlemen, time is running
12:05 I think we have made good progress on this one
12:05 cms thanks tomeu--should we move on to our next topic?
12:06 tomeu perhaps people can send concrete proposals to the mailing list?
12:06 garycmartin tomeu: +1
12:06 FGrose To collect community proposals, after/upon posting to iaep: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]/Vision/Proposals
12:06 y0shu tomeu:  +1
12:07 cms garycmartin: you suggested to talk about the a.sl.o design
12:07 tomeu oooh
12:07 FGrose: that's cool
12:07 y0shu cms: that was me
12:07 cms oops, sorry!
12:08 y0shu no worries
12:08 I put up another mock up http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Addons_Portal/Design
12:08 and sent it out on the mailing list as well
12:08 cms looking at it now...
12:08 is this based on eben's earlier mockup?
12:08 walterbender #TOPIC a.sl.o design
12:09 seandaly y0shu: it looks good but I do think we should pick from the logos on the logo page
12:09 y0shu seandaly: is that not one of them?
12:09 seandaly And, we have a concern with harmonizing top menu bar
12:09 cms yûshu: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Logo
12:09 y0shu that can be changed fairly easily
12:10 seandaly y0shu: typography on yours is fatter
12:10 y0shu cms: yeah I must have added a stroke to the labs, can change that
12:10 cms yOshu, have you seen eben's mockup? if not, i'll ask him to send it out again
12:10 y0shu cms: yeah I have seen it
12:11 cms it would be a good point of reference as you develop the design
12:11 seandaly also (i'm always concerned about first-time visitors) go to sugarlabs.org will be confusing since they assume they are there already
12:11 garycmartin y0shu: I'd also stick with standard fonts, unless you're willing to generate images in multi-languages.
12:11 seandaly better to say what we say on first page of wiki
12:11 home
12:12 cms and, on a visual standpoint, my main point is consistency with the identity, meaning using one of the 12 logos, and Helvetica/Arial for typography
12:12 y0shu garycmartin: are you talking about the "download and install activities for sugar"?
12:12 seandaly visitors need to know how to get to "main page" if lost
12:12 garycmartin y0shu: yea.
12:12 cms *from a visual standpoint
12:12 seandaly cms:+1 important
12:12 y0shu cms: I'm using helvetica neu - of course on the web it would be helvetica/arial
12:13 cms yes, that's great
12:13 tomeu sorry, need to leave. I think both proposals look good enough to replace what we have now, we could then collect feedback and move forward from there. in the future we may be able to do more interesting things like what eben suggested, but right now might be wiser to not change too much the php code and only play with css and the backgrounds png
12:13 cms (i think i detect verdana though in areas...)
12:13 thanks for joining tomeu
12:13 y0shu later tomeu
12:13 seandaly bye tomeu
12:14 cms yOshu: if you like we could take this offline to go over details
12:14 tomeu leaves
12:14 seandaly y0shu: keep scenario in mind of arriving at www.sugarlabs.org after Google search, clicking on Activities
12:14 garycmartin y0shu: the dotted outlines are a little non-standard, we don't use them anywhere else. Perhaps just go with a solid stroke if you have to have a bounded box.
12:14 y0shu seandaly: what do you mean "better to say what we say on first page of wiki" ?
12:15 seandaly we have separate window for the moment to mitigate difficulty of returning to homepage
12:15 y0shu: "home"
12:16 y0shu seandaly:  ?
12:16 garycmartin seandaly: multiple windows caunsing me more confusion to be honest, I keep discovering extra windows spawned by www.sl.org :-(
12:16 y0shu I think the home link is terribly confusing
12:16 seandaly top menu bar
12:17 garycmartin: multiple windows only because nav across 3 sections of site not harmonized
12:17 y0shu garycmartin: I agree, if it's an external link, then maybe open in a new window, but not for our own pages
12:17 cms everyone, i'm going to have to leave soon--y0shu, we can discuss later via email if you want
12:17 seandaly multiple windows bad for Browse on XO too
12:18 y0shu cms: alright, take care
12:18 seandaly y0shu: I'll be happy to go with 1 window when all content on 3 sections available from any section
12:18 cms thanks for joining everyone! i'll send out an email about our next meeting
12:18 seandaly cms: bye
12:18 y0shu seandaly: I think the wiki and home page have huge usability issues concerning navigation
12:18 walterbender cms: please #endmeeting
12:18 cms #endmeeting

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