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#sugar-meeting, 2009-03-19

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Time Nick Message
12:13 tomeu hmm, should have suggested to the triagers to identify bugs we should really fix for 0.84.1
12:14 erikos tomeu: i can ask this as homework
12:14 FGrose: i will post a link on the blog
12:14 FGrose erikos: Great
12:15 erikos FGrose: we really need to find out who the Kids testers are ;p
12:16 ok - todays subect is 0.86
12:16 FGrose erikos: Email them through the wiki talk page, special link in sidebar
12:16 erikos FGrose: ok
12:16 we need to define the feedback process
12:16 walterbender erikos: 0.84 is great, in case you didn't realize
12:17 erikos and rough out the schedule
12:17 walterbender: what do you mean? ;p
12:17 walterbender: i look unhappy?
12:18 walterbender erikos: you should be very proud of your child :)
12:18 ishk can anyone tell me how can i get the information about sugar lab ideas on gsof 2009,the sugar site direct me to this IRC
12:18 :(
12:19 erikos ishk: :)
12:19 ishk :( :( :(
12:19 tomeu one minute of proud silence for 0.84!
12:19 erikos homunq: can you guide our friend?
12:19 cjb maybe there should be a #sugar-gsoc or something?
12:20 ishk :D i think i came to a wrong place,,,am i?
12:20 erikos there is always one stepping into the silence ;D
12:20 tomeu cjb: yeah, I'm thinking that as well
12:20 erikos ishk: #sugar is better
12:20 tomeu ishk: here is for scheduled meetings
12:21 erikos walterbender: ok - i will celebrate a bit - actually we should all do
12:21 tomeu: what was about the party?
12:21 sdziallas a party? when? where? who? :)
12:22 walterbender sounds like linuxtag is the party date?
12:22 sdziallas :):):)
12:22 tomeu ok, deal
12:23 erikos walterbender: ok, so you are coming as well - i read between the lines ;p
12:23 walterbender I'll try.
12:23 tomeu there's also wien, bolzano and paris
12:23 and of course, the center of europe and thus the optimal place, prague
12:24 sdziallas heh.
12:24 finds a small hint from tomeu here
12:24 erikos well it is good to celebrate several times
12:24 tomeu german guys should just hop on the train and come spend a weekend here
12:25 I already celebrated it myself a couple of weeks ago
12:25 erikos tomeu: yeah, i should come visit soon
12:26 tomeu if mel was here, she wouldn't be happy with our meeting discipline
12:26 sdziallas we're having a meeting? heh. ;)
12:27 erikos oups
12:27 walterbender sdziallas: everyibe followed ishk to #sugar
12:27 erikos ok - everyone makes a funny face now
12:27 *blink*
12:27 walterbender #TOPIC 0.86
12:27 erikos now concentration
12:29 walterbender I am in part responsible, because I asked erikos for a rough idea of the schedule
12:29 erikos walterbender: ok - schedule is a good start
12:29 we already said that we should try to follow the Fedora one
12:30 to get our release into it
12:30 as Soas is an important product
12:30 walterbender which means we can back out from those dates? when is F12?
12:30 erikos yup - let me look it up
12:31 tomeu maybe we should reflect a bit about how well has worked the 0.84 schedule
12:31 walterbender tomeu: good idea
12:32 tomeu IMO, the worst problem was that people didn't had a good way to test sugar
12:32 we are still trying to get soas-* to work
12:32 but hopefully that will have improved for 0.86
12:32 walterbender tomeu: made worse by the fact that it is difficult to test 0.84 on the XO
12:32 sdziallas walterbender: this will become easier, soonish
12:32 silbe there were some last-minute breakages that frightened me - the keyboard problem e.g. (sorry erikos)
12:32 walterbender tomeu: SoaS will greatly broaden our ability to test
12:32 tomeu maybe we should make a goal to run 0.85 on top of F11-based soas
12:33 erikos so F12 - looks like it is meant to be October 31
12:33 walterbender tomeu: but also greatly broaden the environment in which we need to test
12:33 erikos: what lead time do they need?
12:33 tomeu that's true
12:34 sdziallas tomeu, walterbender: as I threw the soas & cjb's fedora-xo kickstart files together, they're now based on the same stuff, so everybody get's the cool latest changes. and that way, sugar (0.84) will run better under F11 on the XO.
12:34 walterbender tomeu: but I think we can agree that we do our baseline testing on a Fedora-based SoaS??? That would be a sigiifcant decision.
12:34 erikos walterbender: that is from a draft: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/
12:34 silbe more automated testing (both unit tests and sugarbot) would help in the long run, though it cannot replace manual testing fully
12:34 erikos silbe: you mean for the mute key etc?
12:35 silbe erikos: yup, the one where my keyboard stopped working at all
12:35 walterbender erikos: feature submission is end of May
12:35 how do people on other distros feel about using Fedora as the baseline?
12:35 erikos walterbender: it starts yup
12:36 silbe: you mean - it was not good to make that change at that date
12:36 walterbender erikos: oh. we have until end of July...
12:36 erikos silbe: and in the future we should be more cautious?
12:36 tomeu walterbender: for 0.86, I would say so
12:36 walterbender: we can revisit for 0.88, of course
12:36 sdziallas well, feature freeze is not final freeze, right?
12:36 silbe erikos: i don't know what the "right" thing would be. it seemed like a nice, little change but turned out to have rather grave effects.
12:37 tomeu walterbender: saw the email I sent about gnome 2.26, there's a link about how they do their live media images, I guess for testing purposes
12:37 ?
12:37 erikos silbe: we could have reverted it i guess
12:37 walterbender sdziallas: I am just thinking that we need to know what features before we can freeze them
12:37 erikos silbe: on the other hand - we fixed another bug which was only revealed that way
12:38 silbe: in general - i think that we will get better in the future and do not need to make so many last minute changes
12:38 silbe erikos: yes, but i don't like the idea it could have made it into the release
12:38 erikos silbe: sure
12:38 sdziallas walterbender: yeah, definitely agreed. but Fedora's feature freeze just means (afaik) that you need to have a current feature page, which has been approved by FESCo...
12:38 erikos silbe: point taken - will try to be more strict with myself and us in the future
12:39 silbe: to avoid such things
12:39 walterbender sdziallas: OK. But regardless, we should plan to reach consensus on 0.86 features well before then
12:39 silbe erikos: didn't mean to imply you were imcautious (sp?)
12:39 sdziallas walterbender: agreed...
12:40 erikos silbe: nah :)
12:40 walterbender so we at least can agree we need to know <<July what are plans are for 0.86
12:41 that already narrows things down.
12:41 erikos sdziallas: and the process is maybe the right thing for us as well
12:42 sdziallas: that the features need to be aproved
12:42 sdziallas erikos: yeah, I mean Fedora wouldn't be using the process if it would be bad one...
12:43 erikos or do people think - this would slow down development - and people feel not couraged?
12:43 silbe sdziallas: they how way more people, though
12:43 erikos silbe: maybe we need to work towards this
12:43 silbe i've thought about more strict rules as well, but additional load on the developers would hurt a lot
12:44 erikos silbe: we do not need to make it super strict
12:44 sdziallas silbe: that's also true... ;)
12:44 walterbender erikos: I don't know that we need more strict rules, but we can tell people, here is the schedule, dirven by external events.
12:44 if you can meet it, great. If not, your work will probably end up in 0.88
12:45 and having a set of agreed upon features doesn't preclude people from working on others as well
12:45 but it will enable people to rally around some concrete goals?
12:46 tomeu yeah, it's important that people understand that there are reason why we have rules
12:46 and that we have processes in place to make exceptions
12:47 silbe IMO the goals for 0.86 should be a) get Sugar to a point where it's interesting for a lot of people to contribute, esp. hackers (=> spread developer load) and b) start with automated testing (e.g. regression tests) to notice new issues faster (increase quality, reduce tester load)
12:47 purely subjective of course :)
12:47 walterbender silbe: good goals. we need to get everyone's goals on the table soon
12:47 but it is hard to argue with those two goals :)
12:47 tomeu silbe: actually, walter started a discussion about high level goals last week, but I failed to follow up
12:48 maybe we should do that
12:48 erikos walterbender: tomeu +1
12:48 walterbender I would like to have a framework in place for the diascussion
12:48 silbe walterbender: that's a good idea. maybe even do releases more often so not getting a feature into a release doesn't hurt as much. would increase load on the release team, though.
12:49 tomeu walterbender: maybe for the high level goals we don't need more than a plain old email thread?
12:49 walterbender silbe:  I am not proposing we churn out more than 1 per 6 months
12:49 sdziallas_ runs, will be back later; sorry folks :(
12:49 tomeu sdziallas_: cheers!
12:50 at the end, we'll see people pushing for some goals but having no one who will actually work on them
12:50 so we don't actually need to reach consensus on the mailing list
12:50 silbe walterbender: personally, i'd go for 3 months (and perhaps even fork new development branches before the release), but that's probably not realistic for now
12:50 erikos phone - sorry :(
12:50 walterbender silbe: not until the secret cloning project is finished
12:50 tomeu apart from cloning, there's the issue of distributors
12:51 walterbender quick, while Simon's back is turned, grab a few skin cells
12:51 tomeu right now, only distros that package sugar are distributing it
12:51 walterbender tomeu: I agree. The bits need to get out into the world to be useful
12:51 and to get feedback
12:51 tomeu and they seem to be sync'ing themselves in two releases per yeat
12:51 walterbender the intermediate (odd numbered) releases help
12:51 silbe walterbender: secret cloning?
12:52 oh, think i got it :)
12:52 tomeu if in the future other people are getting sugar to kids at other times of the year, we can revisit making more frequent releases
12:52 walterbender silbe: did you ever see the Woodie Allen movie, Sleeper :)
12:52 silbe walterbender: not yet. will put it on the list :)
12:54 walterbender so maybe a more aggressive call for feature suggestions and then a workshop or some event where we can drive to some consensus?
12:54 silbe ok. Does SoaS pull the packages from Fedora?
12:54 tomeu after having a bit of high level goals discussion in iaep? ;)
12:54 silbe: yup
12:55 silbe ok, so 6 months for now, fine. :)
12:56 tomeu would be nice to have someone to take care of the feature pages in the wiki, but perhaps our wiki team is a bit overloaded?
12:57 erikos walterbender: haha back!
12:58 silbe it would be great to get rainbow in, BTW </shameless-plug>
12:58 walterbender #ACTION walter will reconcile new features with trac
12:58 tomeu silbe: I think we only need someone to work on integration
12:58 silbe "reconcile new features"?
12:59 erikos so, as we do development releases in the 6 months - we can get feedback earlier
12:59 silbe ok, will try once i get the buildmaster stuff working as expected :)
12:59 walterbender runs to the phone
13:00 erikos and we have Soas where we can get feedback
13:00 tomeu silbe: we talked earlier today about having all features as enhancements in trac, and the ones that are a bit complex, also a wiki page
13:00 silbe ah, ok
13:01 so what exactly is walter going to do? add new feature requests in trac or trying to find them?
13:01 tomeu silbe: making sure they are properly linked and all features in the wiki have a ticket
13:01 walterbender silbe both
13:02 but that list is only scratching the surface
13:02 silbe ok
13:02 walterbender if we put out a call, we need to include a schedule and a process, which is what I asked erokos this morning
13:03 needs to spend more time with Typing Turtle
13:03 tomeu what would a process look like?
13:04 erikos walterbender: i would go for a schedule like the one  iposted earlier
13:04 walterbender erikos: +1
13:04 nothing complicated
13:04 but we just need to agree upon it
13:05 erikos walterbender: yup - nearly two months for feature submission it says there
13:05 walterbender: maybe i should just daft one up and we can discuss it
13:06 walterbender erikos: where is "there"?
13:06 FGrose There are new 'Roadmap' links on the TeamHeaders that can be used
13:06 erikos http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/
13:06 silbe erikos: erikos: got a pointer? cannot find any mail from you with a schedule in it
13:07 erikos silbe: nah - there is not one yet ;p
13:07 silbe: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/
13:07 silbe oh
13:07 erikos silbe: i meant similar to that one
13:07 silbe ok :)
13:07 erikos would until next week work?
13:07 if i present a schedule we can talk about next week?
13:08 walterbender erikos: that is fine. I guess I was looking for the Sugar schedule, not the Fedora schedule :)
13:10 erikos walterbender: yup - next week i will have the draft
13:11 walterbender: or we can meet on monday or tuesday for a special meeting
13:11 tomeu an extraordinary meeting?
13:11 walterbender erikos: I cannot do Monday or Tuesday morning :(
13:12 erikos: why not just wait for the usual Thursday time?
13:12 tomeu yeah, and discuss in the mailing list if you send it earlier
13:12 silbe don't think it's a good idea to do high level decisions on an extraordinary meeting
13:13 tomeu I would actually take all decisions async on the mailing list, in fact
13:13 erikos walterbender: works for me - i just thought people were probably waiting for it
13:13 silbe tomeu: even better
13:13 erikos ok - ml is it then
13:13 walterbender erikos: I think as long as people know it is coming, that is OK
13:14 erikos walterbender: great
13:14 walterbender: ok - anything else here?
13:14 walterbender erikos: wanna post an ACTION?
13:15 erikos walterbender: don't like to post actions for myself ;)
13:15 ACTION: Schedule of Sucrose 0.86 - send draft to ml for further discussion (erikos)
13:15 #ACTION: Schedule of Sucrose 0.86 - send draft to ml for further discussion (erikos)
13:17 FGrose erikos: Let's talk about wiki page to collect goals and ideas for roadmap.  There are new 'Roadmap' links for each team/project on wiki
13:17 walterbender erikos: I cannot manage to attend a meeting without getting stuck with an Action... bad habit
13:17 erikos FGrose: ok
13:18 silbe walterbender: you need to delegate more :-P
13:18 erikos FGrose: you mean i should post the roadmap to the wiki - and wait for feedback?
13:19 FGrose erikos: No ML is best, but then some semi static collection of ideas for easy referal
13:20 tomeu if we cloned walterbender, he could delegate on himself
13:21 erikos FGrose: i guess we can directly do that on the roadmap page
13:21 walterbender silbe: says silbe, who has nothing on his plate :)
13:21 erikos FGrose: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ease/Roadmap/0.86
13:22 FGrose: oh - i see the links - nice
13:22 silbe walterbender: did well enough :-P - but actually i promised to work on rainbow once the buildmaster stuff is done
13:22 FGrose erikos: right, but we can structure it better for feedback ideas maybe
13:23 erikos FGrose: suggestions welcome - a concrete idea already?
13:23 FGrose Let me think for a couple of hours
13:24 silbe is the modules page still up to date - e.g. marco as sugar maintainer?
13:24 walterbender silbe: we need to protect you and Aleksey and Sebastian from getting saddled with minutia.
13:25 erikos FGrose: ok - awesome
13:25 FGrose erikos: Mailing list thread is best for wide participation, but point people to wiki for landed ideas
13:26 silbe walterbender: agreed in general - but what do you mean exactly?
13:26 tomeu silbe: marco passed on maintainance, we should update that
13:26 walterbender silbe: nothing in particular... just a general observation
13:27 silbe walterbender: ok, full ack then :)
13:27 walterbender silbe: not that it wouldn't be great to get Rainbow into 0.86!!
13:28 silbe walterbender: it's my personal release goal :)
13:28 tomeu it's quite doable, I think
13:28 silbe AFAICT the datastore part will be the biggest obstacle
13:29 but i really need to dive into it to be sure
13:29 tomeu silbe: yeah, I had some ideas about doing it with dbus, but I think the new rainbow dumped dbus completely?
13:30 silbe tomeu: i think so, yes. the olpcfs2 could be a nice solution if it were already implemented :)
13:30 tomeu basically, the DS needs to ask rainbow if the activity is limited to reading entries with a particular activity_id or to a particular mime_type list
13:31 silbe: but the fuse daemon would have the same problem, right?
13:32 silbe ah, right, rainbow will need to interact with it, not just make it work...
13:32 tomeu silbe: you can also implement olpcfs2 for 0.86 :p
13:33 silbe even if i had the time to do it, i don't think it would be release ready for 0.86.
13:34 erikos tomeu: i read the thing now
13:34 tomeu sure, just joking
13:35 any other topics for the meeting?
13:35 can we close it?
13:36 I think I'm quite clean now of non-coding duties, so maybe tomorrow we can make it a bug-fixing day in preparation of 0.84.1?
13:37 silbe maybe i'll do it as a dissertation if it hasn't been done by then ;)
13:39 erikos #endmeeting

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