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#sugar-meeting, 2009-03-13

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
12:05 bernie SeanDaly: what meeting is this?
12:05 SeanDaly jt4sugar, garycmartin are you there?
12:05 erikos SeanDaly: how do you handle international announcement?
12:05 bernie slobs?
12:05 erikos bernie: marketing
12:05 SeanDaly Ah hi Bernie this is marketing
12:05 jt4sugar SeanDaly: Yes
12:06 SeanDaly erikos: I'll explain in a moment
12:06 erikos SeanDaly: awesome!
12:06 SeanDaly OK bernie could we start with our URL problems? I'm really worried
12:08 bernie SeanDaly: I just sent you email regarding the wiki <-> web integration
12:09 SeanDaly: oh, I've just seen your other email
12:09 SeanDaly: what url problem?  both http://sugarlabs.org/ and http://www.sugarlabs.org/ now point at the static web site.
12:10 SeanDaly in fact "web" is not a good name, it should say "home" like the static part says... anyone coming in the front door will look for "home"
12:11 Well this is mysterious but the logo started linking to the static part just now
12:11 but how come it doesn't resolve to www.sugarlabs.org ?
12:12 And why does Google show wiki.sugarlabs.org instead of www.sugarlabs.org?
12:13 bernie Ok for home
12:13 what do you search for?
12:13 SeanDaly "sugar labs"
12:13 bernie I just replied your email
12:14 basically, google ranking is based on incoming links... even clicks on google searches themselves.
12:14 SeanDaly This is weird... I've been checking every day, and since the 2nd day of the wtatic site launch "sugar labs" has returned www.sugarlabs.org until today :-/
12:14 bernie so if a page containing "Sugar Labs" is more popular, it will show up in google before www.sugarlabs.org even if it's on www.microsoft.com
12:15 there might be more sites linking to wiki.sugarlabs.org than sugarlabs.org?
12:15 SeanDaly or www.sugarlabs.org, since these are not the same
12:16 I had thought the wiki would become wiki.sugarlabs.org ?
12:17 To be clear, the referencing is not the main problem, since we will be launching with the URL
12:17 The main problem is the nav
12:17 bernie for example, the 3rd highest ranked result, the xconomy.com interview to Walter, links back to wiki.sugarlabs.org
12:18 SeanDaly The best way to solve this problem is to clearly identify the wiki hompeage as such, and clearly link to the main URL
12:18 bernie I'll fix that in a moment
12:18 I'm in the middle of another wiki refactoring
12:19 SeanDaly Sugar Labs/Welcome to Sugar Labs -> Sugar Labs/Welcome to the Sugar Labs Wiki
12:19 under "Sugar Labs is a member project..." we could add a line: "Return to our homepage" with a link
12:20 I apologize I'm not a wiki maven in fact I'm embarrassed to say I've been recruiting Mel to help me a bunch of times
12:20 OK maybe I can talk about the PR distribution?
12:21 neuralis SeanDaly: we can tell google that the canonical url for the wiki is sugarlabs.org/go, and it'll add up the google juice for wiki.sugarlabs.org
12:21 bernie SeanDaly: done the Web -> Home change
12:21 SeanDaly bernie: great
12:21 bernie neuralis: you mean with addurl?
12:21 SeanDaly neuralis: sounds good
12:21 neuralis bernie: no, with the new thing they have
12:22 bernie: http://googlewebmastercentral.[…]ur-canonical.html
12:22 bernie: can you take care of it? i'm about to disappear for a while
12:22 SeanDaly Keep in mind it is quite likely we will have lots of published links on Monday directly to www.sugarlabs.org
12:22 neuralis SeanDaly: can that be to sugarlabs.org? the 'www' is archaic and unneccessary
12:23 SeanDaly neuralis: archaic and unnecessary?
12:23 neuralis SeanDaly: correct
12:23 bernie neuralis: oh, cool. we'd have to hack the skin I guess
12:23 erikos SeanDaly: yeah, we do not need the www anymore
12:24 SeanDaly: you can try when typing in an url
12:24 SeanDaly Most nonengineer internet users I know type www something
12:24 neuralis wait, wtf, why is sugarlabs.org taking me to the wiki?
12:24 SeanDaly: and that will continue to work, but the url to promote is the one without www
12:24 erikos SeanDaly: i know ;p
12:24 neuralis bernie: did you change something?
12:24 oh, nevermind
12:24 SeanDaly and if it's archaic why does Google resolve to it ?
12:24 neuralis swears at the browser cache
12:25 SeanDaly: why does google resolve to what?
12:25 SeanDaly www.google.com - Much better to promote www.sugarlabs.org
12:26 neuralis *shrug* do what you will, i guess.
12:27 SeanDaly No really now's the time to decide, before communicating the URL, I just don't see an advantage leaving out the www
12:27 what I do notice is the homepage appears both with and without, which means visitors will bookmark 2 addresses
12:27 neuralis my brain likes shorter urls without redundant information
12:28 and there's no reason to use the 'www' part, so i like that url better. but i don't have very strong feelings about it, i suppose.
12:29 SeanDaly Keep in mind lots of our visitors won't be engineers... but parents, teachers... and some... won't know the web very well... but they recognize that "www" is World Wide Web, especially in print (magazine, newspaper)
12:29 "www" is useful when giving contact info, because it identifies a website address easily just like "@" identifies an e-mail address
12:30 neuralis fair enough
12:30 jt4sugar If all you type in URL bar is-   sugar labs -it goes to wiki
12:30 neuralis i guess if you include www, you don't have to include http://
12:30 SeanDaly When we get on TV, i agree, current best-practice is to issue a call to action without the www, e.g. "go to sugarlabs.org"
12:30 neuralis: yes, that's right, I never put http:// if Ii can help it
12:31 neuralis SeanDaly: okay, i'm convinced
12:31 SeanDaly and then, typing sugarlabs.org should resolve to www.sugarlabs.org (like Google ;-)
12:32 I'm looking at the clock because Activity meeting in 30 mins & I need to talk about the release
12:32 So eReleases can send to hundreds of newspapers and broadcast media in the US
12:32 bernie is on the phone
12:33 SeanDaly They have a special rate for nonprofits but we're too late for the earlybird discount too bad extra C note
12:33 bernie neuralis: across domain names, they suggest using 301 responses rather than <link content="canonical" ...>
12:34 SeanDaly Also they distribute formatted files in MS Word only (!)
12:34 OK on another subject I may need helpers this weekend to test the new PR telephone number
12:35 Which is +1.857.254.1100
12:36 Bernie, do you think Asterisk integration with that is possible this weekend, or is that too ambitious?
12:36 In the worst case we can leave it on voicemail and check messages all day I guess
12:36 bernie SeanDaly: I'll try.  I had no time to work on it yesterday and today.
12:37 SeanDaly bernie: maybe the best way forward is I familiarize myself with standalone mode first? I will send you the login information for the Gizmo5 Business account I set up
12:38 OK, moving along I have a mailing list question but i'm not sure who handles that i think it's David?
12:38 bernie SeanDaly: ok
12:39 SeanDaly We will be adding a press page SUnday night/Monday morning to the static intro
12:39 Christian is working on it
12:39 It will list our press releases, most recent first
12:40 With a link to the sugarlabs logo
12:41 Each line will have the date & title of the press release and will list the languages available next to it with links to HTML and PDF
12:41 erikos: this is how we willl publish multilanguage, the EU does it like that
12:42 erikos reads backlog
12:42 SeanDaly What would be ideal would be a link on the press page to a PR mailing list, so journalists could sign up for alerts directly
12:42 I'm afraid I don't know if that's lots of work or what
12:43 My plan for Monday morning worked out with dfarning is to emit the messages from pr@sugarlabs.org
12:43 So, if anyone responds, I will see the messages directly
12:43 neuralis SeanDaly: we can make a pr mailing list in 30 seconds, that's easy enough
12:44 SeanDaly neuralis: Maybe I could mail you with a clear description of what I would like?
12:44 neuralis: but not sure what your mail is :-(
12:44 neuralis SeanDaly: radian.org, first line
12:45 erikos SeanDaly: ok, sounds good - the multilang thing
12:45 SeanDaly neuralis: OK will mail you shortly I just need to ask 1-2 questions about multilanguage possibilities thanks
12:45 Next topic: Photos!
12:46 we *need* photos of kids using Sugar
12:46 There is a secondary problem, we don't have the SFC-approved release form yet
12:46 i pinged them this morning following up on Caroline's mail
12:47 walterbender SeanDaly: I am just back...
12:47 SeanDaly greetings walterbender
12:48 I'm afraid I'm doing most of the yapping
12:48 walterbender I was with Caroline visiting the pilot school for SoaS
12:48 our meeting ran over
12:48 SeanDaly The good news I am in contact with eReleases for Monday morning PR distribution
12:48 walterbender +1
12:49 SeanDaly they are partners of PR Newswire which means absolutely massive coverage
12:49 SoaS: great!!
12:49 Reminder, massive PR distribution <> massive buzz or press coverage
12:50 But, if press coverage by only a very few influential journalists, widespread availabaility of press release aids enormously in buzz
12:51 3 problems to sort out between now & Monday: static site/wiki integration & URLs, journalist telephone number, forwarding of pr@sugarlabs.org
12:52 this last not critical but the other 2 are
12:52 bernie & neuralis are on it I hope we can have that sorted by Monday
12:52 walterbender I'll work with Ivan and Bernie...
12:52 SeanDaly walterbender: do you have any Spanish-speaking contacts to send me for the mailing?
12:53 bernie SeanDaly: where do we want to forward pr@sugarlabs.org to?
12:53 SeanDaly sdaly@, and dfarning and walterbender
12:53 bernie SeanDaly: we can add a group in google apps right away
12:53 walterbender SeanDaly: I'll work on  list for you today...
12:53 bernie SeanDaly: ok
12:54 walterbender and I still have hopes for Portuguese as well
12:54 Simon will get you German over the weekend...
12:54 bernie SeanDaly: I think we already had press@sugarlabs.or
12:54 *org
12:54 SeanDaly My concept of how to do the mailing is to prepare a CSV file by language, import it into Google Apps, create a language group, then send the PR for each language on Monday morning
12:55 bernie oh, we have a "pr" user on apps.
12:55 SeanDaly bernie: quite possible but it's not the address i've been using or is in the press release :-(
12:55 bernie SeanDaly: ok, I'll retarget pr@ then
12:56 SeanDaly "press" can be a charged word for bloggers I prefer pr although it's debatable I imagine
12:56 Also, "pr" is the shorthand for press in many languages (press, presse, prensa)
12:57 OK I'm going to wind this up because the next meeting is about to start OK?
12:58 #endmeeting
13:02 wadeb|w Hey all, welcome to the ActivityTeam meeting.
13:02 garycmartin Hi wadeb|w I'm still here :-)
13:03 alsroot hi all
13:03 garycmartin alsroot: hi!
13:04 Hmmm, Friday 13th, I think folks have stayed somewhere safe today :-)
13:06 wadeb|w Ok, getting started now (sorry - I'm still on the phone with HP support, ack)
13:07 Check out the updated agenda for the meeting - http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]vityTeam/Meetings
13:07 alsroot well, we have huge agenda for this meeting
13:08 wadeb|w I just added a few things too.
13:08 It might run over a bit if that's okay with everyone.
13:09 garycmartin Go for it, we can always drop back to email if needed.
13:10 wadeb|w First of all, my status as ActivityTeam coordinator - I'm going to be dropping off the face of the planet temporarily in a few weeks as I'm expecting a child!!  :)  Not sure when exactly.
13:10 So I spoke with walterbender and dfarning and we decided to ask garycmartin to step in and help out, and he agreed!
13:11 So, from here forward, garycmartin and I are co-coordinating the ActivityTeam.  I'll send an email announcement to the list after the meeting.
13:12 cheers for garycmartin.  Hooray!
13:12 garycmartin looks at the big stick behind wadeb|w desk...
13:12 wadeb|w I'll update the w.sl.o Contact page.
13:13 ok, continuing with normal agenda.
13:13 we're "taking over" activities.sugarlabs.org from the infrastructure team
13:14 this means becoming editors, which is mostly reviewing activity submissions
13:14 is anyone here (who is not already) willing to become an activities.sugarlabs.org editor?
13:14 (you get an email when there is a new activity or version posted, you go and download it from the queue, try it out, and approve it if it works)
13:16 <crickets>  ok, I'll bring it up in a devel email and hope the wider audience gets some people :)
13:16 thinks the time difference and haphazard scheduling may have resulted in reduced turnout.
13:17 next up is ActivityTeam releasing of activities
13:17 some authors are pretty sporadic w.r.t. sugar involvement and don't mind if core team members want to produce new releases of their activities (bugfixes, compatibility issues, even new features)
13:18 to this effect we have created an 'activityteam' gitorious user and 'activity.team@sugarlabs.org' activities.sugarlabs.org user
13:18 alsroot that could be a sad thing if we will have less activities then soas has
13:18 ..from aslo
13:18 wadeb|w alsroot: totally agreed.... so, if developers don't mind getting some help from the ActivityTeam, they just have to add permissions for these users on Gitorious and ASLO
13:19 but it's 100% voluntary
13:19 if you see an activity (say IRC) that you want to jump in and help out on, first step is still to clone, fix and request merge
13:19 but for those who are involved with a lot of activities, this solution may improve our efficiency.
13:19 alsroot just a bit worried about Gitorious user -- we could just use cloned repos
13:20 ..and release activities from them
13:20 wadeb|w alsroot: yep, perhaps do work in cloned repo, and use activityteam user to merge back into trunk?  or else release from cloned repo (like I did with Terminal) and request merge
13:20 probably a good idea to say "hey, I released this btw" in the merge request notes
13:21 I guess we'll just have to see which approach works better
13:21 alsroot +1 for realising from cloned repos
13:21 * releasing
13:21 garycmartin I hope we can get more Activity developers on board and using the tools, or we'll be spread pretty thin.
13:21 wadeb|w garycmartin: yeah, no kidding :)  we should put some efforts into recruiting perhaps
13:22 homunq hooray
13:22 garycmartin wadeb|w: yea, time for some emails to previous devs.
13:23 FGrose a future topic/lesson session for tool use
13:23 homunq oops. was not scrolled down :)
13:23 garycmartin homunq: lol
13:24 wadeb|w yeah, we still need some wiki guides - the GitFaq has been created but we still need Localization, Publishing, and a couple more I'm forgetting
13:24 alsroot wadeb|w: how it should be -- we will mail activity authors and ask them about releasing permissions? -- or just email to ml?
13:24 wadeb|w homunq: are you going to stick around?  I added GSoC 2009 Activity development to the agenda, would be great to have you here for that.
13:24 homunq honestly, I was just trying last night to start to use the tools, and had some trouble. details are not important right here, but I think documentation can improve
13:25 my daughter has no school today, so I can't actually program... I can be here with the 40% attention I can spare.
13:26 wadeb|w alsroot: I guess we can do two steps - one, ask for release permissions (and suggest adding activityteam user to project/aslo site), if no response then clone/release/merge request?
13:26 alsroot: I think it's best to always start with emailing, at least in the case of someone who has done the work to merge to Gitorious
13:26 alsroot: if we're talking about some random wiki.laptop.org .xo bundle that hasn't been touched in a year, maybe fix/release/email is okay :)
13:27 alsroot +1
13:27 wadeb|w homunq: okay, cool (thanks for the Colors! note btw, that was nice to hear :))
13:27 homunq I think that the email should be clear on the deadline
13:27 :)
13:27 wadeb|w homunq: don't forget to get her a wacom bamboo ($60 from amazon!)
13:29 homunq deadline: not mean about it, but clear: "in n weeks, we will be forking non-responsive activities. We're not trying to usurp your development, but need working versions."
13:30 wadeb|w homunq: yeah, I hate to have to wait any weeks in most cases - sometimes you just want to fix and release right now :)
13:30 walterbender sorry to be joining late...
13:30 garycmartin Reminds me, I should ping rwh and help him get Calculate uploaded to aslo
13:30 wadeb|w homunq: but I guess it depends on the level of the changes.
13:30 homunq n can be 1, I think less than that is not fair.
13:30 wadeb|w garycmartin: yeah, he's been working on it lately, I saw him close some dev.sl.o bugs
13:31 walterbender: np!  glad you could make it - we made the coordinatorship annoucnement at the beginning
13:31 walterbender has caught up with the logs
13:32 wadeb|w ok, lets briefly talk about the ActivityTeam Stamp of Approval concept
13:32 the idea was that if we're really happy with an activity - works well, educational, constructivist, etc, then it gets this stamp
13:32 I think cjl's acronym from the last meeting would be a good indicator
13:33 walterbender An aside: Caroline and I had a meeting with the principle and curriculum coordinator at the SoaS pilot school... one of their goals is work closely with developers :)
13:33 garycmartin wadeb|w: why not just do this via the aslo 'we recommended' process?
13:33 wadeb|w note that this idea came up *before* we had activities.sugarlabs.org and theability to set  'Featured'
13:33 garycmartin: right
13:34 walterbender: excellent!  I'd personally be psyched to work with them on any of my activities like typing turtle
13:34 alsroot in my mind these activities not only "recomended" but they should be adopted (in some way) by AT
13:34 wadeb|w so, do people still want the Stamp of Approval concept?
13:34 alsroot: good point
13:34 walterbender wadeb|w: we downloaded it from a.s.o as a demo today... they had lots of ides about how to go forward with it
13:34 alsroot I mean trac them for new releases ... test new versions
13:35 garycmartin wadeb|w: do we have the bandwidth, what does this idea get us other than more work/chatter?
13:35 alsroot fixing bugs..
13:35 walterbender people also would like feedback on versions in a.s.o
13:35 wadeb|w right now the 'Featured' activities on activities.sugarlabs.org are prety random, we need editors to fix that up
13:35 walterbender does this run on 0.82? does it work with SoaS, etc.
13:36 wadeb|w walterbender: yeah, for sure.  we are still working out bugs in the site unfortuantely but people are welcome to post that kind of information now
13:36 garycmartin wadeb|w: fix up 'featured' +1
13:36 alsroot these activities should be like a new fructose -- well tested
13:36 wadeb|w for example garycmartin's email to devel about what works on SoaS v1 and v2 would be great to put onto activities
13:36 walterbender in the descriptions... hopefully it will be a search criteria at some point
13:36 wadeb|w alsroot: hm, also good point re fructose <=> featured connection
13:37 walterbender: it can be done now, I updated the 'platforms' section on a.s.o to include soas-1, soas-2, olpc-767, etc.
13:37 walterbender: but need to get activity authors to go in and assign it
13:37 walterbender: (as an Editor / Admin on the site, I'm still not able to do it)
13:38 garycmartin wadeb|w: updated platforms, great! I'd been hoping to see that happen :-)
13:38 alsroot wadeb|w: for its a Q:(include soas-1, soas-2, olpc-767) should enumerate all OSs or just use SugarPlatfor-0.82 -0.84
13:38 s/for/for me
13:38 wadeb|w alsroot: well, it's an end user visible field
13:39 alsroot: I'm not sure how many people know what SugarPlatform corresponds to what OS
13:39 alsroot: but there is the problem that right now, I can't flag something on a.s.o as working on 'gentoo' for example
13:39 alsroot: they aren't exclusive though
13:39 alsroot wadeb|w: but in that case we should enumerate all cases -- CM12 CM12-Mag ....
13:40 wadeb|w alsroot: so we could have soas-1, soas-2, and *also* sugarplatform-0.82
13:40 alsroot: can we assume that all activities that are compatible with Sugar 0.82 are also compatible with Sugar Platform 0.82?
13:40 alsroot another contra -- this list is not static
13:41 wadeb|w: "can we assume" yup
13:41 wadeb|w alsroot: hm, in that case we already have Sugar 0.82 as an "application" - a.s.o supports separate concepts of "application" and "platform"
13:42 alsroot: but does the Sugar Platform still define things like python version?
13:42 alsroot wadeb|w: it should
13:42 wadeb|w alsroot: cause that's one difference between soas-1 and soas-2 that requires some distinction
13:42 alsroot and also versions for pygame/csound
13:42 wadeb|w hmm
13:43 I don't have a great answer
13:43 soas-1 and soas-2 are different w.r.t. python versions but are both SugarPlatform-0.84, yes?
13:43 homunq dreads py3k transition.
13:43 alsroot wadeb|w: well in that case I'm strong for : we have only SP -- SP-0.82 and SP-0.84
13:44 wadeb|w but CM12, CM12-Mag, ubuntu, f10, f11, gentoo, mandriva, altlinux, etc are all slightly different in some ways too
13:44 walterbender do we have documented other dependencies such as numpy, csound, etc?
13:44 alsroot wadeb|w: they should package SP
13:44 wadeb|w alsroot: can you clarify that question - are soas-1 and soas-2 both SugarPlatform 0.84?
13:44 homunq what is CM12?
13:44 alsroot wadeb|w: soas-1 - yup
13:45 wadeb|w: but soas-2 is just exp. version
13:45 wadeb|w and is SP 0.84 tied to Sugar 0.84?  if so, no need to specify both "works with Sugar 0.84" and "works with SP 0.84"
13:45 garycmartin wonders, did Sugar just change names to SugarPlatform
13:45 wadeb|w alsroot: hm, if that's the case (soas-1 and soas-2 are both SP 0.84) we need some distinction cause soas-1 is python 2.5, soas-2 is python 2.6
13:46 alsroot wadeb|w: but it leads us to complicated list of "ifs, buts"
13:46 wadeb|w yeah, it's complicated
13:47 alsroot wadeb|w: my point is only SP exists: all OSs should be certified to SP
13:47 wadeb|w alsroot: yeah, that sounds like an ideal
13:47 alsroot or SP-0.82 or SP-0.84
13:47 wadeb|w alsroot: I'm just not sure its reality right now
13:48 alsroot: and if we do make that a user visible thing it becomes meaningless since SP 0.84 == Sugar 0.84
13:48 homunq the only way that could ever become reality is about 100 times more unit testing than we have
13:48 alsroot garycmartin: SP means glucose+fructose+honey-deps
13:49 garycmartin alsroot: thanks, that's a new term for me...
13:49 walterbender alsroot: Sugar 0.82 and 0.84 are different in different ways that SP 0.84 on F10 and SP 084 on F11.... the Python switch is at the OS level, not SP
13:49 wadeb|w soas-1 will never meet SP 0.84 anyway, assuming python version is part of SP
13:49 walterbender SP should be independent of Python version (until Python 3.0 at least)
13:50 wadeb|w how about another definition
13:50 alsroot wadeb|w: thats my point -- we should avoid this complicated stuff -- and declare only SP(deps+versions+ABI)
13:50 walterbender: ^
13:50 wadeb|w platforms: soas-1, soas-2, olpc-767, sugar-distro-0.82, sugar-distro-0.84  (sugar-distro would encompass gentoo, CM12, ubuntu, etc.. all linux distributions that have Sugar packages available)
13:51 alsroot: I would like to avoid it if possible, but I don't think it is
13:51 alsroot: given python version #s, the inability to modify olpc builds, etc etc
13:51 alsroot: might even be nice to eventually include olpc-656 as a support option (for older XOs)
13:52 garycmartin What will the Soas release be made with F10? F11?
13:53 Just thinking the soas-1 and soas-2 is currently a dev thing.
13:53 wadeb|w garycmartin: Good question, but someday there will be soas-3 I imagine
13:53 alsroot garycmartin: soas-1 is f10 based and soas-2 is f11 based(just dev version)
13:54 garycmartin alsroot: yea, but whick is going to be released to the world for use?
13:54 wadeb|w Ok, let's punt on this question for now.
13:54 homunq garycmartin: ++
13:54 wadeb|w Got lots more agenda to cover :)
13:54 garycmartin wadeb|w: :-)
13:54 wadeb|w Age Range categories on a.s.o
13:55 Should we have them, and what should they be?  And who is willing to help decide?
13:55 homunq primary, secondary, older, all
13:55 walterbender and for the teacher... e.g. infoslicer
13:55 garycmartin I've been keeping a list of categorie names, as per my email a few weeks back (nothing to do with age)
13:56 Not much input though; just a list from me, eben, and Gabriel, plus the list we have now.
13:56 wadeb|w I like using "age descriptions" rather than numeric ranges.
13:57 garycmartin: cool, do you have it handy?  we could bring it up now
13:57 walterbender we could think about it in terms of this and that go together if you want to do xyz
13:57 garycmartin wadeb|w: yep, I have them sitting here.
13:57 walterbender that is the way they do it in Peru
13:58 homunq basically, it's a question of literacy level
13:58 more than age
13:58 garycmartin Gabriel: Artistic, Natural sciences, Social sciences, Language, Mathematics, 2nd/Foreign Language
13:59 walterbender today, the question came up: what activities are good for learning English?
13:59 I think that goal-oriented categories would be helpful
13:59 garycmartin Eben: Math, Science, Language, Artistic, Programming, Communication, Neighbourhood, Writing.
13:59 homunq neighborhood?
13:59 wadeb|w walterbender: yeah, I have heard about english learning activities before too.  do we have anything specifically for that?
14:00 homunq nepal has some... in flash, mostly
14:00 walterbender speak, words...
14:00 memorize
14:00 garycmartin Gary: Reading, Writing, Art, Maths, Science, Programming, Geography, Communication, Games
14:01 homunq: Yea, I wasn't sure what eben meant with neighbourhood as a category.
14:01 walterbender hablar con sarah; chat; ...
14:01 wadeb|w walterbender: cool!
14:02 walterbender wadeb|w with a little imagination, even Typing Turtle...
14:02 wadeb|w walterbender: heh, it will certainly expand your vocab with some of the words it chooses :)
14:02 walterbender the teachers would like, for example, to load spelling lists into TT
14:02 garycmartin wadeb|w: the cat' list seems to be too geeky just now, at least suggestions seem to be more like traditional class lesson types.
14:02 homunq Serious proposal for "literacy level" (~age) categories: beginning, intermediate, advanced, all
14:03 wadeb|w walterbender: yeah - I intend to create a 'lesson builder' user interface
14:03 walterbender: although the Rainbow implications are annoying (grr :))
14:04 So, we've got a lot of categories proposed - can we filter them down or just choose a list?
14:04 homunq can they be more like tags?
14:04 wadeb|w I am actually drawn towards Gary's list with the addition of homunq's Literacy
14:04 homunq: authors can choose up to 3
14:05 alsroot homunq: +1 -- but dont know is it possible at present
14:05 wadeb|w anyone else have a preference?
14:05 walterbender not sure a restriction of 3 is necessary?
14:06 wadeb|w walterbender: yeah, it's what the software exposes - we could possibly expand it
14:06 walterbender but maybe until we figure out a way to add tags on the fly it is OK
14:07 garycmartin Hmm, can my reading + writing be folded into just Literacy?
14:08 (btw: I'm not a fan of ontologies, it's all shades of grey for me)
14:08 wadeb|w Sure, why not.
14:08 nrp what about a category like Utilities.  stuff like terminal, help, log, etc don't cleanly fit into any educational category
14:08 walterbender we just have to be careful to make sure that the Science teacher who wants her students to write lab reports finds the tools she needs
14:09 garycmartin nrp: Programming is close enough?
14:09 walterbender: that's why I don't like ontologies :-)
14:10 I hoped to get more Educator feedback, but Gabriel was the only response :-(
14:10 walterbender It would if the user community could tag and describe: "I used such and such to do so and so
14:11 nrp garycmartin: perhaps, i thought of Programming more as scratch, turtleart, etoys, develop, and so on, but log and terminal could very well fit that.  its just a question of what category a person could be expected to check to find such things
14:11 garycmartin User generated tags, yea that would be great!
14:12 walterbender nrp: but when I am debugging, Log sure is handy!!
14:13 garycmartin Let's punt this one and move on. Perhaps another round of email.
14:16 wadeb|w Ok
14:16 Must be Friday the 13th :)
14:16 homunq walterbender: Develop subsumes log :)
14:17 wadeb|w I think we covered the orphaned activities bit already.
14:17 alsroot's email/clone/release/merge request system should work just fine
14:18 (agenda is coming from http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/Meetings for late joiners)
14:18 next topic, already discussed somewhat is the Sugar Platform
14:19 As I understand it, this is a list of packages which activities can depend on being present in the system.
14:19 garycmartin Yes, we need to try and encourage and help existing developers, adopting as the last resort.
14:19 alsroot wadeb|w: yup
14:20 in case of SP, think we could have two levels -- SP(0.82/0.84) and Platform(Linux, Mac, BSD..)
14:20 garycmartin What no pygame
14:20 alsroot garycmartin: it will include pygame
14:20 wadeb|w as you can see (it's linked frmo Tomeu's talk page for example) it's still early days as far as a spec
14:21 garycmartin And no box2d (can't remember the name)
14:21 wadeb|w although I think much of the knowledge is contained in jhbuild, jhconver, and soas sources
14:21 garycmartin alsroot: fab, phew.
14:21 worried we were about to kill off more Activities...
14:22 wadeb|w hehe
14:22 I would love to either kill pygame or make it actually work
14:22 alsroot garycmartin: SP should include most popular honey deps
14:22 wadeb|w (ie no ability to add GTK widgets to pygame activities)
14:23 alsroot: do you think we'll have problems getting some distros to meet the sugar platform exactly?  ie, say gentoo has newer gtk version, do we ask them to downgrade?
14:24 alsroot wadeb|w: but these versions are low border
14:24 wadeb|w alsroot: ok, so they are min spec - newer versions may be present
14:24 alsroot ideally we should declare ABI -- but think its imps. at present
14:25 garycmartin wadeb|w: sounds good. as long as Activity developers know that, they can plan for it.
14:26 wadeb|w alsroot: any idea when the SP will be formalized (ie moved to DevelopmentTeam/ hierarchy?)
14:26 alsroot wadeb|w: hope it will be declared before official 0.84 announce
14:26 wadeb|w I think it's a great system, just want to make sure the dev and distribution teams are going to keep it up to date
14:26 ok
14:27 I'm all for it then
14:27 alsroot wadeb|w: its a tomeu's idea -- and I sure it will be done :)
14:27 wadeb|w hehe, true.  and can we say that soas is the standard SP test distro?  which soas should that be?
14:28 alsroot wadeb|w: guess in most cases soas-1 is a SP implementations
14:28 ..at least it should be
14:29 wadeb|w ok.. walter, the "official release" next month is going to be soas-1 right?
14:29 walterbender I am not sure...
14:29 garycmartin alsroot: I'm still unclear about F10 and F11, seems like F11 may be here in time and F10 disapear?
14:30 walterbender I think F10 for OLPC, but I don't know if we decided about SoaS
14:30 wadeb|w walterbender: ok.  I had an email from sebastien yesteday indicating he didn't know a release was imminent, we are still planning on that right?
14:30 walterbender We cannot be ahead of Fedora, I imagine, but as alsroot points out, F11 is now in beta
14:31 wadeb|w I guess it's just a matter of which one works better.
14:31 garycmartin walterbender: F10 for OLPC? Is something in addition to 801 landing?
14:31 alsroot garycmartin: thats the Q for sdziallas and erikos, guess soas will switch to f11
14:31 cjb appears, hello
14:31 OLPC's skipping F10
14:31 walterbender I think the "official" release is in Q3, so that would be F11
14:31 wadeb|w waves to cjb
14:31 at http://sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick
14:31 walterbender cjb: isn't 801 still F10?
14:31 cjb build 801 is F9, and we're working on the Rawhide XO stuff which will become F11
14:31 walterbender: no, we never shipped F10.
14:32 wadeb|w it mentions: We are currently working towards the first SoaS release, with a hard launch date of April 10th, 2009 where Caroline Meeks and Walter Bender will premiere and distribute SoaS at FOSSVT.
14:32 walterbender cjb: OK... glad to hear it will be F11
14:32 cjb: this should mean that many of the dependency sync issues should go away...
14:32 cjb SoaS-2 and rawhide-xo are very similar, possibly to the point where rawhide-xo can just disappear eventually.  two changes I can see us having are including GNOME as well as Sugar and substituting in our own kernel so that things like power management work
14:33 walterbender cjb: will you be pulling in the same xulrunner, etc. as the new Browse requires? This was an issue for Daniel Drake in Paraguay?
14:33 cjb walterbender: we're doing whatever Fedora's doing
14:33 no custom packages
14:33 (except maybe the kernel, but even that hasn't happened yet)
14:33 garycmartin cjb: thanks for the confirmation, F11 does seem to be bubbling along well.
14:34 cjb so we have daily F11 builds, and people are getting their changes into Rawhide for that
14:34 walterbender cjb: then that would mean that we will be able to include 0.84 versions of Read and Browse
14:34 +1
14:34 cjb I don't know anything about recent xulrunner changes, but will check with dsd.  yeah, sounds like we'd have it already.
14:35 walterbender cjb: we need to coordinate re Activities/G1G1
14:35 wadeb|w ok, let's move on to G1G1
14:35 cjb yeah
14:35 wadeb|w (skipping binary blobs for now, we've discussed enough hairy subjects :))
14:35 walterbender dsd is till using that list to choose activities for 801
14:36 wadeb|w Sigh, my brain is fried.
14:36 cjb ok
14:36 walterbender wadeb|w: I hope we sort out the binary blob issues though... so I can reincarnate Turtle Art with sensors...
14:36 wadeb|w walterbender: yeah, me too - I want Colors! with videopaint as well
14:36 walterbender or add gcc to SoaS :)
14:37 wadeb|w walterbender: that is an option, but that's one big package :)
14:37 cjb walterbender: is the a SL equivalent to the G1G1 set?  (Is that "honey"?)
14:37 s/the/there/
14:37 wadeb|w cjb: yeah, it's honey but it doesn't include all the G1G1 activities yet
14:37 walterbender cjb: yes... essentially honey (plus fructose)
14:38 but everything in Honey will be known to work on F11
14:38 cjb in any case, I'm fine with saying that G1G1 is over and there's no good reason for OLPC to be telling everyone what activities to use anymore
14:38 wadeb|w cjb: yeah, I would personally prefer people just go to a.s.o to get activities past the true basics
14:38 walterbender cjb: but we cannot abandon them entirely...
14:38 G1G1 users have the update panel that still points them to G1G1
14:39 cjb ok
14:39 wadeb|w walterbender: good point
14:39 garycmartin walterbender: +1
14:39 walterbender so we should try to keep that list reasonably up to date...
14:39 cjb so maybe what we need is to redirect that page over to the page describing the SL set that is most similar to that original set?
14:39 walterbender but we need to worry about the fact that many G1G1 people are probably running pre0.82
14:39 garycmartin wadeb|w: we need to get aslo providing the hooks for the updater to work with it.
14:40 cjb good point
14:40 walterbender hariy problem :(
14:40 wadeb|w garycmartin: true.. for awhile we were safe since Sugar didn't include the updater :)
14:40 cjb so maybe our path here is:
14:40 * get a.sl.o speaking to the updater
14:40 * tell it that G1G1 laptops are running whatever version of sugar was in 767 or so, serve up appropriate versions
14:41 * redirect wiki.l.o/Activities/G1G1 requests to a.sl.o
14:41 does that sounds plausible?  this does sound hairy, so there's no reason to suspect we've figured it all out yet
14:41 but we could start a mailing list thread with that kind of rough goal
14:42 garycmartin cjb: hairy, yes, but a good path I think.
14:42 walterbender cjb: hearing that 801 is going to be F11 makes my day... it means that t least those who keeping their builds up to date will be able to use all the new activities :)
14:42 cjb hm, 801 is (still) F9
14:42 garycmartin walterbender: 801 is F9
14:43 walterbender cjb: but the release will be F11?
14:43 wadeb|w cjb: but there are plans to release something that is based on Rawhide?
14:43 cjb sorry if that wasn't clear.  but the part that cheered you up was that we're skipping F10, and will be going straight to F11, and already have daily builds with F11 that run Sugar and GNOME
14:43 walterbender: not the 8.2.1 release, but what we're working on after that, yeah
14:43 wadeb|w: I think Fedora will be releasing it, not us
14:43 walterbender cjb: well, I am still encouraged by the direction the vector is pointing :)
14:43 cjb so it's more like, we're putting energy into making what will be released as F11 run really well on the XO
14:43 walterbender: yeah :)
14:43 wadeb|w cjb: ok, will it be signed though?
14:44 cjb wadeb|w: no, but that's because we're trying to turn off the signing machine
14:44 (and build new laptops with security turned off)
14:44 (unless they're for Uruguay, who really like security)
14:44 wadeb|w cjb: oh, nice one
14:44 cjb we've actually already made that change
14:45 so the default state of a new laptop going through Quanta is security-off; there are still a few SKUs who want it on, but it's limited to them.
14:45 wadeb|w so here's my question, is there any reason to change the Activities/G1G1 page for 801?
14:45 cjb I don't feel like there is
14:45 the 8.2.1 release is "new" in that we're just making it, but we're still talking about what's essentially a legacy release
14:46 wadeb|w ok, so the discussion regarding migratign the updater to a.s.o is strictly for F11
14:46 cjb no-one should be spending any more time on that codebase
14:46 that's my intuition, yeah.
14:46 wadeb|w ok, sounds good to me then.
14:46 Ok, let's try to cut this meeting off at 2 hours.....
14:46 We just have one topic left to cover, GSoC 2009
14:46 SL.org is currently not planning to sponsor activity developers
14:47 But this took quite a few people by surprise (myself included)
14:47 garycmartin and me
14:47 wadeb|w I think the decision may have been made before the ActivityTeam existed?
14:47 walterbender I think that SL will sponsor the most interesting people, period.
14:47 wadeb|w walterbender: +1 - I don't think they should explicitly avoid activities
14:47 walterbender I don't know who is suggesting otherwise...
14:48 wadeb|w mel's post "In general, sugar-core and toolchain development is a higher priority than generative Activity development (Activities that lower the barrier to Activity development). It's highly unlikely that non-generative Activity development will be supported."
14:48 walterbender But GSoC is a very small program. We should think about aa mentoring schema that looks beyond it.
14:48 for example, the DC group is looking for mentors for student projects...
14:49 they tend to be Activity-oriented
14:49 wadeb|w walterbender: true, although I think the fact that they pay students (and it looks great on a resume) increases the effort students put out
14:49 walterbender wadeb|w: +1, but...
14:49 it will always be the exception...
14:49 we should build a structure for the vast majority
14:50 wadeb|w agreed
14:50 walterbender if even just the DC program takes off, I can imagine needing mentors for 20-30 activity developers.
14:50 wadeb|w A SL mentorship program sounds like a good idea to me
14:50 walterbender The two students of Jeff's right now re working on 3 activities :)
14:51 wadeb|w Just have to make sure we don't stretch mentors too thin on projects that don't get finished
14:51 garycmartin So who mentors the mentors? ;-)
14:51 walterbender if we can work well with them, Jeff promises many more...
14:51 garycmartin: good question...
14:51 maybe something we can do at conferences and the like... a mentor handbook? flossmanual?
14:52 garycmartin walterbender: ...a nice shiny gold sherifs badge
14:53 walterbender and maybe a coupon good for one string-freeze violation :)
14:53 garycmartin :-)
14:53 wadeb|w Ok, so regarding GSoC - should I tell Mel that we wanna mentor some activities?
14:54 And walterbender - can you put me & garycmartin in contact with Jeff so we can see what the students are working on?
14:54 (I'd love to see them pushing to Gitorious)
14:54 walterbender wadeb|w: I'll speak to Mel and also forward Jeff's info
14:54 wadeb|w walterbender: Awesome, thank you :)
14:55 hey cjb, still around?
14:55 walterbender wadeb|w: garycmartin should be in your inbox
14:55 garycmartin Wow, made it thought that long adgenda! :-)
14:56 wadeb|w got it, thanks!
14:56 garycmartin (agenda)
14:56 walterbender: thanks!
14:56 wadeb|w Heh.  That wraps up our mega-meeting.
14:56 Thanks all who made it.  Gary and I will spawn threads regarding the unresolved topics and the action items.  See you all next time!
14:58 garycmartin Thanks all!
14:58 wadeb|w #endmeeting

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