| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 12:05 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: what meeting is this? |
| 12:05 |
SeanDaly |
jt4sugar, garycmartin are you there? |
| 12:05 |
erikos |
SeanDaly: how do you handle international announcement? |
| 12:05 |
bernie |
slobs? |
| 12:05 |
erikos |
bernie: marketing |
| 12:05 |
SeanDaly |
Ah hi Bernie this is marketing |
| 12:05 |
jt4sugar |
SeanDaly: Yes |
| 12:06 |
SeanDaly |
erikos: I'll explain in a moment |
| 12:06 |
erikos |
SeanDaly: awesome! |
| 12:06 |
SeanDaly |
OK bernie could we start with our URL problems? I'm really worried |
| 12:08 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: I just sent you email regarding the wiki <-> web integration |
| 12:09 |
|
SeanDaly: oh, I've just seen your other email |
| 12:09 |
|
SeanDaly: what url problem? both http://sugarlabs.org/ and http://www.sugarlabs.org/ now point at the static web site. |
| 12:10 |
SeanDaly |
in fact "web" is not a good name, it should say "home" like the static part says... anyone coming in the front door will look for "home" |
| 12:11 |
|
Well this is mysterious but the logo started linking to the static part just now |
| 12:11 |
|
but how come it doesn't resolve to www.sugarlabs.org ? |
| 12:12 |
|
And why does Google show wiki.sugarlabs.org instead of www.sugarlabs.org? |
| 12:13 |
bernie |
Ok for home |
| 12:13 |
|
what do you search for? |
| 12:13 |
SeanDaly |
"sugar labs" |
| 12:13 |
bernie |
I just replied your email |
| 12:14 |
|
basically, google ranking is based on incoming links... even clicks on google searches themselves. |
| 12:14 |
SeanDaly |
This is weird... I've been checking every day, and since the 2nd day of the wtatic site launch "sugar labs" has returned www.sugarlabs.org until today :-/ |
| 12:14 |
bernie |
so if a page containing "Sugar Labs" is more popular, it will show up in google before www.sugarlabs.org even if it's on www.microsoft.com |
| 12:15 |
|
there might be more sites linking to wiki.sugarlabs.org than sugarlabs.org? |
| 12:15 |
SeanDaly |
or www.sugarlabs.org, since these are not the same |
| 12:16 |
|
I had thought the wiki would become wiki.sugarlabs.org ? |
| 12:17 |
|
To be clear, the referencing is not the main problem, since we will be launching with the URL |
| 12:17 |
|
The main problem is the nav |
| 12:17 |
bernie |
for example, the 3rd highest ranked result, the xconomy.com interview to Walter, links back to wiki.sugarlabs.org |
| 12:18 |
SeanDaly |
The best way to solve this problem is to clearly identify the wiki hompeage as such, and clearly link to the main URL |
| 12:18 |
bernie |
I'll fix that in a moment |
| 12:18 |
|
I'm in the middle of another wiki refactoring |
| 12:19 |
SeanDaly |
Sugar Labs/Welcome to Sugar Labs -> Sugar Labs/Welcome to the Sugar Labs Wiki |
| 12:19 |
|
under "Sugar Labs is a member project..." we could add a line: "Return to our homepage" with a link |
| 12:20 |
|
I apologize I'm not a wiki maven in fact I'm embarrassed to say I've been recruiting Mel to help me a bunch of times |
| 12:20 |
|
OK maybe I can talk about the PR distribution? |
| 12:21 |
neuralis |
SeanDaly: we can tell google that the canonical url for the wiki is sugarlabs.org/go, and it'll add up the google juice for wiki.sugarlabs.org |
| 12:21 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: done the Web -> Home change |
| 12:21 |
SeanDaly |
bernie: great |
| 12:21 |
bernie |
neuralis: you mean with addurl? |
| 12:21 |
SeanDaly |
neuralis: sounds good |
| 12:21 |
neuralis |
bernie: no, with the new thing they have |
| 12:22 |
|
bernie: http://googlewebmastercentral.[…]ur-canonical.html |
| 12:22 |
|
bernie: can you take care of it? i'm about to disappear for a while |
| 12:22 |
SeanDaly |
Keep in mind it is quite likely we will have lots of published links on Monday directly to www.sugarlabs.org |
| 12:22 |
neuralis |
SeanDaly: can that be to sugarlabs.org? the 'www' is archaic and unneccessary |
| 12:23 |
SeanDaly |
neuralis: archaic and unnecessary? |
| 12:23 |
neuralis |
SeanDaly: correct |
| 12:23 |
bernie |
neuralis: oh, cool. we'd have to hack the skin I guess |
| 12:23 |
erikos |
SeanDaly: yeah, we do not need the www anymore |
| 12:24 |
|
SeanDaly: you can try when typing in an url |
| 12:24 |
SeanDaly |
Most nonengineer internet users I know type www something |
| 12:24 |
neuralis |
wait, wtf, why is sugarlabs.org taking me to the wiki? |
| 12:24 |
|
SeanDaly: and that will continue to work, but the url to promote is the one without www |
| 12:24 |
erikos |
SeanDaly: i know ;p |
| 12:24 |
neuralis |
bernie: did you change something? |
| 12:24 |
|
oh, nevermind |
| 12:24 |
SeanDaly |
and if it's archaic why does Google resolve to it ? |
| 12:24 |
neuralis |
swears at the browser cache |
| 12:25 |
|
SeanDaly: why does google resolve to what? |
| 12:25 |
SeanDaly |
www.google.com - Much better to promote www.sugarlabs.org |
| 12:26 |
neuralis |
*shrug* do what you will, i guess. |
| 12:27 |
SeanDaly |
No really now's the time to decide, before communicating the URL, I just don't see an advantage leaving out the www |
| 12:27 |
|
what I do notice is the homepage appears both with and without, which means visitors will bookmark 2 addresses |
| 12:27 |
neuralis |
my brain likes shorter urls without redundant information |
| 12:28 |
|
and there's no reason to use the 'www' part, so i like that url better. but i don't have very strong feelings about it, i suppose. |
| 12:29 |
SeanDaly |
Keep in mind lots of our visitors won't be engineers... but parents, teachers... and some... won't know the web very well... but they recognize that "www" is World Wide Web, especially in print (magazine, newspaper) |
| 12:29 |
|
"www" is useful when giving contact info, because it identifies a website address easily just like "@" identifies an e-mail address |
| 12:30 |
neuralis |
fair enough |
| 12:30 |
jt4sugar |
If all you type in URL bar is- sugar labs -it goes to wiki |
| 12:30 |
neuralis |
i guess if you include www, you don't have to include http:// |
| 12:30 |
SeanDaly |
When we get on TV, i agree, current best-practice is to issue a call to action without the www, e.g. "go to sugarlabs.org" |
| 12:30 |
|
neuralis: yes, that's right, I never put http:// if Ii can help it |
| 12:31 |
neuralis |
SeanDaly: okay, i'm convinced |
| 12:31 |
SeanDaly |
and then, typing sugarlabs.org should resolve to www.sugarlabs.org (like Google ;-) |
| 12:32 |
|
I'm looking at the clock because Activity meeting in 30 mins & I need to talk about the release |
| 12:32 |
|
So eReleases can send to hundreds of newspapers and broadcast media in the US |
| 12:32 |
bernie |
is on the phone |
| 12:33 |
SeanDaly |
They have a special rate for nonprofits but we're too late for the earlybird discount too bad extra C note |
| 12:33 |
bernie |
neuralis: across domain names, they suggest using 301 responses rather than <link content="canonical" ...> |
| 12:34 |
SeanDaly |
Also they distribute formatted files in MS Word only (!) |
| 12:34 |
|
OK on another subject I may need helpers this weekend to test the new PR telephone number |
| 12:35 |
|
Which is +1.857.254.1100 |
| 12:36 |
|
Bernie, do you think Asterisk integration with that is possible this weekend, or is that too ambitious? |
| 12:36 |
|
In the worst case we can leave it on voicemail and check messages all day I guess |
| 12:36 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: I'll try. I had no time to work on it yesterday and today. |
| 12:37 |
SeanDaly |
bernie: maybe the best way forward is I familiarize myself with standalone mode first? I will send you the login information for the Gizmo5 Business account I set up |
| 12:38 |
|
OK, moving along I have a mailing list question but i'm not sure who handles that i think it's David? |
| 12:38 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: ok |
| 12:39 |
SeanDaly |
We will be adding a press page SUnday night/Monday morning to the static intro |
| 12:39 |
|
Christian is working on it |
| 12:39 |
|
It will list our press releases, most recent first |
| 12:40 |
|
With a link to the sugarlabs logo |
| 12:41 |
|
Each line will have the date & title of the press release and will list the languages available next to it with links to HTML and PDF |
| 12:41 |
|
erikos: this is how we willl publish multilanguage, the EU does it like that |
| 12:42 |
erikos |
reads backlog |
| 12:42 |
SeanDaly |
What would be ideal would be a link on the press page to a PR mailing list, so journalists could sign up for alerts directly |
| 12:42 |
|
I'm afraid I don't know if that's lots of work or what |
| 12:43 |
|
My plan for Monday morning worked out with dfarning is to emit the messages from pr sugarlabs.org |
| 12:43 |
|
So, if anyone responds, I will see the messages directly |
| 12:43 |
neuralis |
SeanDaly: we can make a pr mailing list in 30 seconds, that's easy enough |
| 12:44 |
SeanDaly |
neuralis: Maybe I could mail you with a clear description of what I would like? |
| 12:44 |
|
neuralis: but not sure what your mail is :-( |
| 12:44 |
neuralis |
SeanDaly: radian.org, first line |
| 12:45 |
erikos |
SeanDaly: ok, sounds good - the multilang thing |
| 12:45 |
SeanDaly |
neuralis: OK will mail you shortly I just need to ask 1-2 questions about multilanguage possibilities thanks |
| 12:45 |
|
Next topic: Photos! |
| 12:46 |
|
we *need* photos of kids using Sugar |
| 12:46 |
|
There is a secondary problem, we don't have the SFC-approved release form yet |
| 12:46 |
|
i pinged them this morning following up on Caroline's mail |
| 12:47 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: I am just back... |
| 12:47 |
SeanDaly |
greetings walterbender |
| 12:48 |
|
I'm afraid I'm doing most of the yapping |
| 12:48 |
walterbender |
I was with Caroline visiting the pilot school for SoaS |
| 12:48 |
|
our meeting ran over |
| 12:48 |
SeanDaly |
The good news I am in contact with eReleases for Monday morning PR distribution |
| 12:48 |
walterbender |
+1 |
| 12:49 |
SeanDaly |
they are partners of PR Newswire which means absolutely massive coverage |
| 12:49 |
|
SoaS: great!! |
| 12:49 |
|
Reminder, massive PR distribution <> massive buzz or press coverage |
| 12:50 |
|
But, if press coverage by only a very few influential journalists, widespread availabaility of press release aids enormously in buzz |
| 12:51 |
|
3 problems to sort out between now & Monday: static site/wiki integration & URLs, journalist telephone number, forwarding of prsugarlabs.org |
| 12:52 |
|
this last not critical but the other 2 are |
| 12:52 |
|
bernie & neuralis are on it I hope we can have that sorted by Monday |
| 12:52 |
walterbender |
I'll work with Ivan and Bernie... |
| 12:52 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: do you have any Spanish-speaking contacts to send me for the mailing? |
| 12:53 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: where do we want to forward prsugarlabs.org to? |
| 12:53 |
SeanDaly |
sdaly@, and dfarning and walterbender |
| 12:53 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: we can add a group in google apps right away |
| 12:53 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: I'll work on list for you today... |
| 12:53 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: ok |
| 12:54 |
walterbender |
and I still have hopes for Portuguese as well |
| 12:54 |
|
Simon will get you German over the weekend... |
| 12:54 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: I think we already had presssugarlabs.or |
| 12:54 |
|
*org |
| 12:54 |
SeanDaly |
My concept of how to do the mailing is to prepare a CSV file by language, import it into Google Apps, create a language group, then send the PR for each language on Monday morning |
| 12:55 |
bernie |
oh, we have a "pr" user on apps. |
| 12:55 |
SeanDaly |
bernie: quite possible but it's not the address i've been using or is in the press release :-( |
| 12:55 |
bernie |
SeanDaly: ok, I'll retarget pr@ then |
| 12:56 |
SeanDaly |
"press" can be a charged word for bloggers I prefer pr although it's debatable I imagine |
| 12:56 |
|
Also, "pr" is the shorthand for press in many languages (press, presse, prensa) |
| 12:57 |
|
OK I'm going to wind this up because the next meeting is about to start OK? |
| 12:58 |
|
#endmeeting |
| 13:02 |
wadeb|w |
Hey all, welcome to the ActivityTeam meeting. |
| 13:02 |
garycmartin |
Hi wadeb|w I'm still here :-) |
| 13:03 |
alsroot |
hi all |
| 13:03 |
garycmartin |
alsroot: hi! |
| 13:04 |
|
Hmmm, Friday 13th, I think folks have stayed somewhere safe today :-) |
| 13:06 |
wadeb|w |
Ok, getting started now (sorry - I'm still on the phone with HP support, ack) |
| 13:07 |
|
Check out the updated agenda for the meeting - http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]vityTeam/Meetings |
| 13:07 |
alsroot |
well, we have huge agenda for this meeting |
| 13:08 |
wadeb|w |
I just added a few things too. |
| 13:08 |
|
It might run over a bit if that's okay with everyone. |
| 13:09 |
garycmartin |
Go for it, we can always drop back to email if needed. |
| 13:10 |
wadeb|w |
First of all, my status as ActivityTeam coordinator - I'm going to be dropping off the face of the planet temporarily in a few weeks as I'm expecting a child!! :) Not sure when exactly. |
| 13:10 |
|
So I spoke with walterbender and dfarning and we decided to ask garycmartin to step in and help out, and he agreed! |
| 13:11 |
|
So, from here forward, garycmartin and I are co-coordinating the ActivityTeam. I'll send an email announcement to the list after the meeting. |
| 13:12 |
|
cheers for garycmartin. Hooray! |
| 13:12 |
garycmartin |
looks at the big stick behind wadeb|w desk... |
| 13:12 |
wadeb|w |
I'll update the w.sl.o Contact page. |
| 13:13 |
|
ok, continuing with normal agenda. |
| 13:13 |
|
we're "taking over" activities.sugarlabs.org from the infrastructure team |
| 13:14 |
|
this means becoming editors, which is mostly reviewing activity submissions |
| 13:14 |
|
is anyone here (who is not already) willing to become an activities.sugarlabs.org editor? |
| 13:14 |
|
(you get an email when there is a new activity or version posted, you go and download it from the queue, try it out, and approve it if it works) |
| 13:16 |
|
<crickets> ok, I'll bring it up in a devel email and hope the wider audience gets some people :) |
| 13:16 |
|
thinks the time difference and haphazard scheduling may have resulted in reduced turnout. |
| 13:17 |
|
next up is ActivityTeam releasing of activities |
| 13:17 |
|
some authors are pretty sporadic w.r.t. sugar involvement and don't mind if core team members want to produce new releases of their activities (bugfixes, compatibility issues, even new features) |
| 13:18 |
|
to this effect we have created an 'activityteam' gitorious user and 'activity.teamsugarlabs.org' activities.sugarlabs.org user |
| 13:18 |
alsroot |
that could be a sad thing if we will have less activities then soas has |
| 13:18 |
|
..from aslo |
| 13:18 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: totally agreed.... so, if developers don't mind getting some help from the ActivityTeam, they just have to add permissions for these users on Gitorious and ASLO |
| 13:19 |
|
but it's 100% voluntary |
| 13:19 |
|
if you see an activity (say IRC) that you want to jump in and help out on, first step is still to clone, fix and request merge |
| 13:19 |
|
but for those who are involved with a lot of activities, this solution may improve our efficiency. |
| 13:19 |
alsroot |
just a bit worried about Gitorious user -- we could just use cloned repos |
| 13:20 |
|
..and release activities from them |
| 13:20 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: yep, perhaps do work in cloned repo, and use activityteam user to merge back into trunk? or else release from cloned repo (like I did with Terminal) and request merge |
| 13:20 |
|
probably a good idea to say "hey, I released this btw" in the merge request notes |
| 13:21 |
|
I guess we'll just have to see which approach works better |
| 13:21 |
alsroot |
+1 for realising from cloned repos |
| 13:21 |
|
* releasing |
| 13:21 |
garycmartin |
I hope we can get more Activity developers on board and using the tools, or we'll be spread pretty thin. |
| 13:21 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: yeah, no kidding :) we should put some efforts into recruiting perhaps |
| 13:22 |
homunq |
hooray |
| 13:22 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: yea, time for some emails to previous devs. |
| 13:23 |
FGrose |
a future topic/lesson session for tool use |
| 13:23 |
homunq |
oops. was not scrolled down :) |
| 13:23 |
garycmartin |
homunq: lol |
| 13:24 |
wadeb|w |
yeah, we still need some wiki guides - the GitFaq has been created but we still need Localization, Publishing, and a couple more I'm forgetting |
| 13:24 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: how it should be -- we will mail activity authors and ask them about releasing permissions? -- or just email to ml? |
| 13:24 |
wadeb|w |
homunq: are you going to stick around? I added GSoC 2009 Activity development to the agenda, would be great to have you here for that. |
| 13:24 |
homunq |
honestly, I was just trying last night to start to use the tools, and had some trouble. details are not important right here, but I think documentation can improve |
| 13:25 |
|
my daughter has no school today, so I can't actually program... I can be here with the 40% attention I can spare. |
| 13:26 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: I guess we can do two steps - one, ask for release permissions (and suggest adding activityteam user to project/aslo site), if no response then clone/release/merge request? |
| 13:26 |
|
alsroot: I think it's best to always start with emailing, at least in the case of someone who has done the work to merge to Gitorious |
| 13:26 |
|
alsroot: if we're talking about some random wiki.laptop.org .xo bundle that hasn't been touched in a year, maybe fix/release/email is okay :) |
| 13:27 |
alsroot |
+1 |
| 13:27 |
wadeb|w |
homunq: okay, cool (thanks for the Colors! note btw, that was nice to hear :)) |
| 13:27 |
homunq |
I think that the email should be clear on the deadline |
| 13:27 |
|
:) |
| 13:27 |
wadeb|w |
homunq: don't forget to get her a wacom bamboo ($60 from amazon!) |
| 13:29 |
homunq |
deadline: not mean about it, but clear: "in n weeks, we will be forking non-responsive activities. We're not trying to usurp your development, but need working versions." |
| 13:30 |
wadeb|w |
homunq: yeah, I hate to have to wait any weeks in most cases - sometimes you just want to fix and release right now :) |
| 13:30 |
walterbender |
sorry to be joining late... |
| 13:30 |
garycmartin |
Reminds me, I should ping rwh and help him get Calculate uploaded to aslo |
| 13:30 |
wadeb|w |
homunq: but I guess it depends on the level of the changes. |
| 13:30 |
homunq |
n can be 1, I think less than that is not fair. |
| 13:30 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: yeah, he's been working on it lately, I saw him close some dev.sl.o bugs |
| 13:31 |
|
walterbender: np! glad you could make it - we made the coordinatorship annoucnement at the beginning |
| 13:31 |
walterbender |
has caught up with the logs |
| 13:32 |
wadeb|w |
ok, lets briefly talk about the ActivityTeam Stamp of Approval concept |
| 13:32 |
|
the idea was that if we're really happy with an activity - works well, educational, constructivist, etc, then it gets this stamp |
| 13:32 |
|
I think cjl's acronym from the last meeting would be a good indicator |
| 13:33 |
walterbender |
An aside: Caroline and I had a meeting with the principle and curriculum coordinator at the SoaS pilot school... one of their goals is work closely with developers :) |
| 13:33 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: why not just do this via the aslo 'we recommended' process? |
| 13:33 |
wadeb|w |
note that this idea came up *before* we had activities.sugarlabs.org and theability to set 'Featured' |
| 13:33 |
|
garycmartin: right |
| 13:34 |
|
walterbender: excellent! I'd personally be psyched to work with them on any of my activities like typing turtle |
| 13:34 |
alsroot |
in my mind these activities not only "recomended" but they should be adopted (in some way) by AT |
| 13:34 |
wadeb|w |
so, do people still want the Stamp of Approval concept? |
| 13:34 |
|
alsroot: good point |
| 13:34 |
walterbender |
wadeb|w: we downloaded it from a.s.o as a demo today... they had lots of ides about how to go forward with it |
| 13:34 |
alsroot |
I mean trac them for new releases ... test new versions |
| 13:35 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: do we have the bandwidth, what does this idea get us other than more work/chatter? |
| 13:35 |
alsroot |
fixing bugs.. |
| 13:35 |
walterbender |
people also would like feedback on versions in a.s.o |
| 13:35 |
wadeb|w |
right now the 'Featured' activities on activities.sugarlabs.org are prety random, we need editors to fix that up |
| 13:35 |
walterbender |
does this run on 0.82? does it work with SoaS, etc. |
| 13:36 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: yeah, for sure. we are still working out bugs in the site unfortuantely but people are welcome to post that kind of information now |
| 13:36 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: fix up 'featured' +1 |
| 13:36 |
alsroot |
these activities should be like a new fructose -- well tested |
| 13:36 |
wadeb|w |
for example garycmartin's email to devel about what works on SoaS v1 and v2 would be great to put onto activities |
| 13:36 |
walterbender |
in the descriptions... hopefully it will be a search criteria at some point |
| 13:36 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: hm, also good point re fructose <=> featured connection |
| 13:37 |
|
walterbender: it can be done now, I updated the 'platforms' section on a.s.o to include soas-1, soas-2, olpc-767, etc. |
| 13:37 |
|
walterbender: but need to get activity authors to go in and assign it |
| 13:37 |
|
walterbender: (as an Editor / Admin on the site, I'm still not able to do it) |
| 13:38 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: updated platforms, great! I'd been hoping to see that happen :-) |
| 13:38 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: for its a Q:(include soas-1, soas-2, olpc-767) should enumerate all OSs or just use SugarPlatfor-0.82 -0.84 |
| 13:38 |
|
s/for/for me |
| 13:38 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: well, it's an end user visible field |
| 13:39 |
|
alsroot: I'm not sure how many people know what SugarPlatform corresponds to what OS |
| 13:39 |
|
alsroot: but there is the problem that right now, I can't flag something on a.s.o as working on 'gentoo' for example |
| 13:39 |
|
alsroot: they aren't exclusive though |
| 13:39 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: but in that case we should enumerate all cases -- CM12 CM12-Mag .... |
| 13:40 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: so we could have soas-1, soas-2, and *also* sugarplatform-0.82 |
| 13:40 |
|
alsroot: can we assume that all activities that are compatible with Sugar 0.82 are also compatible with Sugar Platform 0.82? |
| 13:40 |
alsroot |
another contra -- this list is not static |
| 13:41 |
|
wadeb|w: "can we assume" yup |
| 13:41 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: hm, in that case we already have Sugar 0.82 as an "application" - a.s.o supports separate concepts of "application" and "platform" |
| 13:42 |
|
alsroot: but does the Sugar Platform still define things like python version? |
| 13:42 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: it should |
| 13:42 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: cause that's one difference between soas-1 and soas-2 that requires some distinction |
| 13:42 |
alsroot |
and also versions for pygame/csound |
| 13:42 |
wadeb|w |
hmm |
| 13:43 |
|
I don't have a great answer |
| 13:43 |
|
soas-1 and soas-2 are different w.r.t. python versions but are both SugarPlatform-0.84, yes? |
| 13:43 |
homunq |
dreads py3k transition. |
| 13:43 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: well in that case I'm strong for : we have only SP -- SP-0.82 and SP-0.84 |
| 13:44 |
wadeb|w |
but CM12, CM12-Mag, ubuntu, f10, f11, gentoo, mandriva, altlinux, etc are all slightly different in some ways too |
| 13:44 |
walterbender |
do we have documented other dependencies such as numpy, csound, etc? |
| 13:44 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: they should package SP |
| 13:44 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: can you clarify that question - are soas-1 and soas-2 both SugarPlatform 0.84? |
| 13:44 |
homunq |
what is CM12? |
| 13:44 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: soas-1 - yup |
| 13:45 |
|
wadeb|w: but soas-2 is just exp. version |
| 13:45 |
wadeb|w |
and is SP 0.84 tied to Sugar 0.84? if so, no need to specify both "works with Sugar 0.84" and "works with SP 0.84" |
| 13:45 |
garycmartin |
wonders, did Sugar just change names to SugarPlatform |
| 13:45 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: hm, if that's the case (soas-1 and soas-2 are both SP 0.84) we need some distinction cause soas-1 is python 2.5, soas-2 is python 2.6 |
| 13:46 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: but it leads us to complicated list of "ifs, buts" |
| 13:46 |
wadeb|w |
yeah, it's complicated |
| 13:47 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: my point is only SP exists: all OSs should be certified to SP |
| 13:47 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: yeah, that sounds like an ideal |
| 13:47 |
alsroot |
or SP-0.82 or SP-0.84 |
| 13:47 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: I'm just not sure its reality right now |
| 13:48 |
|
alsroot: and if we do make that a user visible thing it becomes meaningless since SP 0.84 == Sugar 0.84 |
| 13:48 |
homunq |
the only way that could ever become reality is about 100 times more unit testing than we have |
| 13:48 |
alsroot |
garycmartin: SP means glucose+fructose+honey-deps |
| 13:49 |
garycmartin |
alsroot: thanks, that's a new term for me... |
| 13:49 |
walterbender |
alsroot: Sugar 0.82 and 0.84 are different in different ways that SP 0.84 on F10 and SP 084 on F11.... the Python switch is at the OS level, not SP |
| 13:49 |
wadeb|w |
soas-1 will never meet SP 0.84 anyway, assuming python version is part of SP |
| 13:49 |
walterbender |
SP should be independent of Python version (until Python 3.0 at least) |
| 13:50 |
wadeb|w |
how about another definition |
| 13:50 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: thats my point -- we should avoid this complicated stuff -- and declare only SP(deps+versions+ABI) |
| 13:50 |
|
walterbender: ^ |
| 13:50 |
wadeb|w |
platforms: soas-1, soas-2, olpc-767, sugar-distro-0.82, sugar-distro-0.84 (sugar-distro would encompass gentoo, CM12, ubuntu, etc.. all linux distributions that have Sugar packages available) |
| 13:51 |
|
alsroot: I would like to avoid it if possible, but I don't think it is |
| 13:51 |
|
alsroot: given python version #s, the inability to modify olpc builds, etc etc |
| 13:51 |
|
alsroot: might even be nice to eventually include olpc-656 as a support option (for older XOs) |
| 13:52 |
garycmartin |
What will the Soas release be made with F10? F11? |
| 13:53 |
|
Just thinking the soas-1 and soas-2 is currently a dev thing. |
| 13:53 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: Good question, but someday there will be soas-3 I imagine |
| 13:53 |
alsroot |
garycmartin: soas-1 is f10 based and soas-2 is f11 based(just dev version) |
| 13:54 |
garycmartin |
alsroot: yea, but whick is going to be released to the world for use? |
| 13:54 |
wadeb|w |
Ok, let's punt on this question for now. |
| 13:54 |
homunq |
garycmartin: ++ |
| 13:54 |
wadeb|w |
Got lots more agenda to cover :) |
| 13:54 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: :-) |
| 13:54 |
wadeb|w |
Age Range categories on a.s.o |
| 13:55 |
|
Should we have them, and what should they be? And who is willing to help decide? |
| 13:55 |
homunq |
primary, secondary, older, all |
| 13:55 |
walterbender |
and for the teacher... e.g. infoslicer |
| 13:55 |
garycmartin |
I've been keeping a list of categorie names, as per my email a few weeks back (nothing to do with age) |
| 13:56 |
|
Not much input though; just a list from me, eben, and Gabriel, plus the list we have now. |
| 13:56 |
wadeb|w |
I like using "age descriptions" rather than numeric ranges. |
| 13:57 |
|
garycmartin: cool, do you have it handy? we could bring it up now |
| 13:57 |
walterbender |
we could think about it in terms of this and that go together if you want to do xyz |
| 13:57 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: yep, I have them sitting here. |
| 13:57 |
walterbender |
that is the way they do it in Peru |
| 13:58 |
homunq |
basically, it's a question of literacy level |
| 13:58 |
|
more than age |
| 13:58 |
garycmartin |
Gabriel: Artistic, Natural sciences, Social sciences, Language, Mathematics, 2nd/Foreign Language |
| 13:59 |
walterbender |
today, the question came up: what activities are good for learning English? |
| 13:59 |
|
I think that goal-oriented categories would be helpful |
| 13:59 |
garycmartin |
Eben: Math, Science, Language, Artistic, Programming, Communication, Neighbourhood, Writing. |
| 13:59 |
homunq |
neighborhood? |
| 13:59 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: yeah, I have heard about english learning activities before too. do we have anything specifically for that? |
| 14:00 |
homunq |
nepal has some... in flash, mostly |
| 14:00 |
walterbender |
speak, words... |
| 14:00 |
|
memorize |
| 14:00 |
garycmartin |
Gary: Reading, Writing, Art, Maths, Science, Programming, Geography, Communication, Games |
| 14:01 |
|
homunq: Yea, I wasn't sure what eben meant with neighbourhood as a category. |
| 14:01 |
walterbender |
hablar con sarah; chat; ... |
| 14:01 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: cool! |
| 14:02 |
walterbender |
wadeb|w with a little imagination, even Typing Turtle... |
| 14:02 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: heh, it will certainly expand your vocab with some of the words it chooses :) |
| 14:02 |
walterbender |
the teachers would like, for example, to load spelling lists into TT |
| 14:02 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: the cat' list seems to be too geeky just now, at least suggestions seem to be more like traditional class lesson types. |
| 14:02 |
homunq |
Serious proposal for "literacy level" (~age) categories: beginning, intermediate, advanced, all |
| 14:03 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: yeah - I intend to create a 'lesson builder' user interface |
| 14:03 |
|
walterbender: although the Rainbow implications are annoying (grr :)) |
| 14:04 |
|
So, we've got a lot of categories proposed - can we filter them down or just choose a list? |
| 14:04 |
homunq |
can they be more like tags? |
| 14:04 |
wadeb|w |
I am actually drawn towards Gary's list with the addition of homunq's Literacy |
| 14:04 |
|
homunq: authors can choose up to 3 |
| 14:05 |
alsroot |
homunq: +1 -- but dont know is it possible at present |
| 14:05 |
wadeb|w |
anyone else have a preference? |
| 14:05 |
walterbender |
not sure a restriction of 3 is necessary? |
| 14:06 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: yeah, it's what the software exposes - we could possibly expand it |
| 14:06 |
walterbender |
but maybe until we figure out a way to add tags on the fly it is OK |
| 14:07 |
garycmartin |
Hmm, can my reading + writing be folded into just Literacy? |
| 14:08 |
|
(btw: I'm not a fan of ontologies, it's all shades of grey for me) |
| 14:08 |
wadeb|w |
Sure, why not. |
| 14:08 |
nrp |
what about a category like Utilities. stuff like terminal, help, log, etc don't cleanly fit into any educational category |
| 14:08 |
walterbender |
we just have to be careful to make sure that the Science teacher who wants her students to write lab reports finds the tools she needs |
| 14:09 |
garycmartin |
nrp: Programming is close enough? |
| 14:09 |
|
walterbender: that's why I don't like ontologies :-) |
| 14:10 |
|
I hoped to get more Educator feedback, but Gabriel was the only response :-( |
| 14:10 |
walterbender |
It would if the user community could tag and describe: "I used such and such to do so and so |
| 14:11 |
nrp |
garycmartin: perhaps, i thought of Programming more as scratch, turtleart, etoys, develop, and so on, but log and terminal could very well fit that. its just a question of what category a person could be expected to check to find such things |
| 14:11 |
garycmartin |
User generated tags, yea that would be great! |
| 14:12 |
walterbender |
nrp: but when I am debugging, Log sure is handy!! |
| 14:13 |
garycmartin |
Let's punt this one and move on. Perhaps another round of email. |
| 14:16 |
wadeb|w |
Ok |
| 14:16 |
|
Must be Friday the 13th :) |
| 14:16 |
homunq |
walterbender: Develop subsumes log :) |
| 14:17 |
wadeb|w |
I think we covered the orphaned activities bit already. |
| 14:17 |
|
alsroot's email/clone/release/merge request system should work just fine |
| 14:18 |
|
(agenda is coming from http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/Meetings for late joiners) |
| 14:18 |
|
next topic, already discussed somewhat is the Sugar Platform |
| 14:19 |
|
As I understand it, this is a list of packages which activities can depend on being present in the system. |
| 14:19 |
garycmartin |
Yes, we need to try and encourage and help existing developers, adopting as the last resort. |
| 14:19 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: yup |
| 14:20 |
|
in case of SP, think we could have two levels -- SP(0.82/0.84) and Platform(Linux, Mac, BSD..) |
| 14:20 |
garycmartin |
What no pygame |
| 14:20 |
alsroot |
garycmartin: it will include pygame |
| 14:20 |
wadeb|w |
as you can see (it's linked frmo Tomeu's talk page for example) it's still early days as far as a spec |
| 14:21 |
garycmartin |
And no box2d (can't remember the name) |
| 14:21 |
wadeb|w |
although I think much of the knowledge is contained in jhbuild, jhconver, and soas sources |
| 14:21 |
garycmartin |
alsroot: fab, phew. |
| 14:21 |
|
worried we were about to kill off more Activities... |
| 14:22 |
wadeb|w |
hehe |
| 14:22 |
|
I would love to either kill pygame or make it actually work |
| 14:22 |
alsroot |
garycmartin: SP should include most popular honey deps |
| 14:22 |
wadeb|w |
(ie no ability to add GTK widgets to pygame activities) |
| 14:23 |
|
alsroot: do you think we'll have problems getting some distros to meet the sugar platform exactly? ie, say gentoo has newer gtk version, do we ask them to downgrade? |
| 14:24 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: but these versions are low border |
| 14:24 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: ok, so they are min spec - newer versions may be present |
| 14:24 |
alsroot |
ideally we should declare ABI -- but think its imps. at present |
| 14:25 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: sounds good. as long as Activity developers know that, they can plan for it. |
| 14:26 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: any idea when the SP will be formalized (ie moved to DevelopmentTeam/ hierarchy?) |
| 14:26 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: hope it will be declared before official 0.84 announce |
| 14:26 |
wadeb|w |
I think it's a great system, just want to make sure the dev and distribution teams are going to keep it up to date |
| 14:26 |
|
ok |
| 14:27 |
|
I'm all for it then |
| 14:27 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: its a tomeu's idea -- and I sure it will be done :) |
| 14:27 |
wadeb|w |
hehe, true. and can we say that soas is the standard SP test distro? which soas should that be? |
| 14:28 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: guess in most cases soas-1 is a SP implementations |
| 14:28 |
|
..at least it should be |
| 14:29 |
wadeb|w |
ok.. walter, the "official release" next month is going to be soas-1 right? |
| 14:29 |
walterbender |
I am not sure... |
| 14:29 |
garycmartin |
alsroot: I'm still unclear about F10 and F11, seems like F11 may be here in time and F10 disapear? |
| 14:30 |
walterbender |
I think F10 for OLPC, but I don't know if we decided about SoaS |
| 14:30 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: ok. I had an email from sebastien yesteday indicating he didn't know a release was imminent, we are still planning on that right? |
| 14:30 |
walterbender |
We cannot be ahead of Fedora, I imagine, but as alsroot points out, F11 is now in beta |
| 14:31 |
wadeb|w |
I guess it's just a matter of which one works better. |
| 14:31 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: F10 for OLPC? Is something in addition to 801 landing? |
| 14:31 |
alsroot |
garycmartin: thats the Q for sdziallas and erikos, guess soas will switch to f11 |
| 14:31 |
cjb |
appears, hello |
| 14:31 |
|
OLPC's skipping F10 |
| 14:31 |
walterbender |
I think the "official" release is in Q3, so that would be F11 |
| 14:31 |
wadeb|w |
waves to cjb |
| 14:31 |
|
at http://sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick |
| 14:31 |
walterbender |
cjb: isn't 801 still F10? |
| 14:31 |
cjb |
build 801 is F9, and we're working on the Rawhide XO stuff which will become F11 |
| 14:31 |
|
walterbender: no, we never shipped F10. |
| 14:32 |
wadeb|w |
it mentions: We are currently working towards the first SoaS release, with a hard launch date of April 10th, 2009 where Caroline Meeks and Walter Bender will premiere and distribute SoaS at FOSSVT. |
| 14:32 |
walterbender |
cjb: OK... glad to hear it will be F11 |
| 14:32 |
|
cjb: this should mean that many of the dependency sync issues should go away... |
| 14:32 |
cjb |
SoaS-2 and rawhide-xo are very similar, possibly to the point where rawhide-xo can just disappear eventually. two changes I can see us having are including GNOME as well as Sugar and substituting in our own kernel so that things like power management work |
| 14:33 |
walterbender |
cjb: will you be pulling in the same xulrunner, etc. as the new Browse requires? This was an issue for Daniel Drake in Paraguay? |
| 14:33 |
cjb |
walterbender: we're doing whatever Fedora's doing |
| 14:33 |
|
no custom packages |
| 14:33 |
|
(except maybe the kernel, but even that hasn't happened yet) |
| 14:33 |
garycmartin |
cjb: thanks for the confirmation, F11 does seem to be bubbling along well. |
| 14:34 |
cjb |
so we have daily F11 builds, and people are getting their changes into Rawhide for that |
| 14:34 |
walterbender |
cjb: then that would mean that we will be able to include 0.84 versions of Read and Browse |
| 14:34 |
|
+1 |
| 14:34 |
cjb |
I don't know anything about recent xulrunner changes, but will check with dsd. yeah, sounds like we'd have it already. |
| 14:35 |
walterbender |
cjb: we need to coordinate re Activities/G1G1 |
| 14:35 |
wadeb|w |
ok, let's move on to G1G1 |
| 14:35 |
cjb |
yeah |
| 14:35 |
wadeb|w |
(skipping binary blobs for now, we've discussed enough hairy subjects :)) |
| 14:35 |
walterbender |
dsd is till using that list to choose activities for 801 |
| 14:36 |
wadeb|w |
Sigh, my brain is fried. |
| 14:36 |
cjb |
ok |
| 14:36 |
walterbender |
wadeb|w: I hope we sort out the binary blob issues though... so I can reincarnate Turtle Art with sensors... |
| 14:36 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: yeah, me too - I want Colors! with videopaint as well |
| 14:36 |
walterbender |
or add gcc to SoaS :) |
| 14:37 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: that is an option, but that's one big package :) |
| 14:37 |
cjb |
walterbender: is the a SL equivalent to the G1G1 set? (Is that "honey"?) |
| 14:37 |
|
s/the/there/ |
| 14:37 |
wadeb|w |
cjb: yeah, it's honey but it doesn't include all the G1G1 activities yet |
| 14:37 |
walterbender |
cjb: yes... essentially honey (plus fructose) |
| 14:38 |
|
but everything in Honey will be known to work on F11 |
| 14:38 |
cjb |
in any case, I'm fine with saying that G1G1 is over and there's no good reason for OLPC to be telling everyone what activities to use anymore |
| 14:38 |
wadeb|w |
cjb: yeah, I would personally prefer people just go to a.s.o to get activities past the true basics |
| 14:38 |
walterbender |
cjb: but we cannot abandon them entirely... |
| 14:38 |
|
G1G1 users have the update panel that still points them to G1G1 |
| 14:39 |
cjb |
ok |
| 14:39 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: good point |
| 14:39 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: +1 |
| 14:39 |
walterbender |
so we should try to keep that list reasonably up to date... |
| 14:39 |
cjb |
so maybe what we need is to redirect that page over to the page describing the SL set that is most similar to that original set? |
| 14:39 |
walterbender |
but we need to worry about the fact that many G1G1 people are probably running pre0.82 |
| 14:39 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: we need to get aslo providing the hooks for the updater to work with it. |
| 14:40 |
cjb |
good point |
| 14:40 |
walterbender |
hariy problem :( |
| 14:40 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: true.. for awhile we were safe since Sugar didn't include the updater :) |
| 14:40 |
cjb |
so maybe our path here is: |
| 14:40 |
|
* get a.sl.o speaking to the updater |
| 14:40 |
|
* tell it that G1G1 laptops are running whatever version of sugar was in 767 or so, serve up appropriate versions |
| 14:41 |
|
* redirect wiki.l.o/Activities/G1G1 requests to a.sl.o |
| 14:41 |
|
does that sounds plausible? this does sound hairy, so there's no reason to suspect we've figured it all out yet |
| 14:41 |
|
but we could start a mailing list thread with that kind of rough goal |
| 14:42 |
garycmartin |
cjb: hairy, yes, but a good path I think. |
| 14:42 |
walterbender |
cjb: hearing that 801 is going to be F11 makes my day... it means that t least those who keeping their builds up to date will be able to use all the new activities :) |
| 14:42 |
cjb |
hm, 801 is (still) F9 |
| 14:42 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: 801 is F9 |
| 14:43 |
walterbender |
cjb: but the release will be F11? |
| 14:43 |
wadeb|w |
cjb: but there are plans to release something that is based on Rawhide? |
| 14:43 |
cjb |
sorry if that wasn't clear. but the part that cheered you up was that we're skipping F10, and will be going straight to F11, and already have daily builds with F11 that run Sugar and GNOME |
| 14:43 |
|
walterbender: not the 8.2.1 release, but what we're working on after that, yeah |
| 14:43 |
|
wadeb|w: I think Fedora will be releasing it, not us |
| 14:43 |
walterbender |
cjb: well, I am still encouraged by the direction the vector is pointing :) |
| 14:43 |
cjb |
so it's more like, we're putting energy into making what will be released as F11 run really well on the XO |
| 14:43 |
|
walterbender: yeah :) |
| 14:43 |
wadeb|w |
cjb: ok, will it be signed though? |
| 14:44 |
cjb |
wadeb|w: no, but that's because we're trying to turn off the signing machine |
| 14:44 |
|
(and build new laptops with security turned off) |
| 14:44 |
|
(unless they're for Uruguay, who really like security) |
| 14:44 |
wadeb|w |
cjb: oh, nice one |
| 14:44 |
cjb |
we've actually already made that change |
| 14:45 |
|
so the default state of a new laptop going through Quanta is security-off; there are still a few SKUs who want it on, but it's limited to them. |
| 14:45 |
wadeb|w |
so here's my question, is there any reason to change the Activities/G1G1 page for 801? |
| 14:45 |
cjb |
I don't feel like there is |
| 14:45 |
|
the 8.2.1 release is "new" in that we're just making it, but we're still talking about what's essentially a legacy release |
| 14:46 |
wadeb|w |
ok, so the discussion regarding migratign the updater to a.s.o is strictly for F11 |
| 14:46 |
cjb |
no-one should be spending any more time on that codebase |
| 14:46 |
|
that's my intuition, yeah. |
| 14:46 |
wadeb|w |
ok, sounds good to me then. |
| 14:46 |
|
Ok, let's try to cut this meeting off at 2 hours..... |
| 14:46 |
|
We just have one topic left to cover, GSoC 2009 |
| 14:46 |
|
SL.org is currently not planning to sponsor activity developers |
| 14:47 |
|
But this took quite a few people by surprise (myself included) |
| 14:47 |
garycmartin |
and me |
| 14:47 |
wadeb|w |
I think the decision may have been made before the ActivityTeam existed? |
| 14:47 |
walterbender |
I think that SL will sponsor the most interesting people, period. |
| 14:47 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: +1 - I don't think they should explicitly avoid activities |
| 14:47 |
walterbender |
I don't know who is suggesting otherwise... |
| 14:48 |
wadeb|w |
mel's post "In general, sugar-core and toolchain development is a higher priority than generative Activity development (Activities that lower the barrier to Activity development). It's highly unlikely that non-generative Activity development will be supported." |
| 14:48 |
walterbender |
But GSoC is a very small program. We should think about aa mentoring schema that looks beyond it. |
| 14:48 |
|
for example, the DC group is looking for mentors for student projects... |
| 14:49 |
|
they tend to be Activity-oriented |
| 14:49 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: true, although I think the fact that they pay students (and it looks great on a resume) increases the effort students put out |
| 14:49 |
walterbender |
wadeb|w: +1, but... |
| 14:49 |
|
it will always be the exception... |
| 14:49 |
|
we should build a structure for the vast majority |
| 14:50 |
wadeb|w |
agreed |
| 14:50 |
walterbender |
if even just the DC program takes off, I can imagine needing mentors for 20-30 activity developers. |
| 14:50 |
wadeb|w |
A SL mentorship program sounds like a good idea to me |
| 14:50 |
walterbender |
The two students of Jeff's right now re working on 3 activities :) |
| 14:51 |
wadeb|w |
Just have to make sure we don't stretch mentors too thin on projects that don't get finished |
| 14:51 |
garycmartin |
So who mentors the mentors? ;-) |
| 14:51 |
walterbender |
if we can work well with them, Jeff promises many more... |
| 14:51 |
|
garycmartin: good question... |
| 14:51 |
|
maybe something we can do at conferences and the like... a mentor handbook? flossmanual? |
| 14:52 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: ...a nice shiny gold sherifs badge |
| 14:53 |
walterbender |
and maybe a coupon good for one string-freeze violation :) |
| 14:53 |
garycmartin |
:-) |
| 14:53 |
wadeb|w |
Ok, so regarding GSoC - should I tell Mel that we wanna mentor some activities? |
| 14:54 |
|
And walterbender - can you put me & garycmartin in contact with Jeff so we can see what the students are working on? |
| 14:54 |
|
(I'd love to see them pushing to Gitorious) |
| 14:54 |
walterbender |
wadeb|w: I'll speak to Mel and also forward Jeff's info |
| 14:54 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: Awesome, thank you :) |
| 14:55 |
|
hey cjb, still around? |
| 14:55 |
walterbender |
wadeb|w: garycmartin should be in your inbox |
| 14:55 |
garycmartin |
Wow, made it thought that long adgenda! :-) |
| 14:56 |
wadeb|w |
got it, thanks! |
| 14:56 |
garycmartin |
(agenda) |
| 14:56 |
|
walterbender: thanks! |
| 14:56 |
wadeb|w |
Heh. That wraps up our mega-meeting. |
| 14:56 |
|
Thanks all who made it. Gary and I will spawn threads regarding the unresolved topics and the action items. See you all next time! |
| 14:58 |
garycmartin |
Thanks all! |
| 14:58 |
wadeb|w |
#endmeeting |