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#sugar-meeting, 2009-03-05

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
11:06 homunq ooOOoo
11:06 erikos roll call - who is here
11:06 homunq stands up and gestures welcomingly to the chair
11:06 FGrose listening in
11:06 tomeu here!
11:06 walterbender says hi
11:07 erikos hi walterbender, tomeu FGrose and homunq
11:07 thanks for making it
11:07 AGENDA:
11:07 a) 0.84.1 - We want to do a 0.84 coordinated bugfix release. Let's find
11:07 a date for that (we welcome packagers input here to sync as most as
11:07 possible with the distributions shipping dates). And any other item we
11:07 need to discuss about that.
11:07 b) Kickstart 0.86 - the mouth is still sticky from 0.84 development and
11:07 this is the best moment to talk about what is next. Branching was one
11:07 part (see Branching email) getting feedback on specific features is
11:07 another one. Lets discuss what else needs to happen.
11:08 other last minute additions?
11:08 walterbender erikos: dare we discuss release notes here?
11:08 erikos walterbender: ok - point taken
11:09 c) 0.84 release notes
11:09 .
11:09 let's start with point a
11:09 checks the date for F11
11:09 sdziallas is here, too
11:11 tomeu https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyReleaseSchedule
11:11 erikos https://fedoraproject.org/wiki[…]eases/11/Schedule
11:11 hi sdziallas
11:11 2009-03-03 Feature Freeze--Planning & Development Ends
11:12 tomeu http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/20[…]nt_planning:_2009.1_planning_and_delivery
11:12 erikos sdziallas: what do you think - is 2009-04-14 Final Development Freeze our final date?
11:13 sdziallas erikos: final development freeze means the date when rawhide gets frozen again and no new packages are allowed without approval from rel-eng
11:14 erikos: so, if we wanted to get it directly into F11, yes (we could push it after F11 release as an update, but doing it beforehead seems to be better, imo)
11:14 erikos sdziallas: ok - so we should have our 0.84.1 in by then
11:14 sdziallas erikos: yeah... :)
11:15 erikos sdziallas: good - i mean looks doable - one month left to go
11:15 tomeu: ok lets see what ubuntu has to tell
11:17 morgs: ^^^
11:17 tomeu ok, then I guess that if we don't get enough testing until 14/04, then we would need to do a 0.84.2 to get into updates?
11:17 maybe April 9th is ubuntu's freeze?
11:17 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FinalFreeze
11:18 erikos tomeu: yeah looks a bit like
11:18 tomeu anyone knows if sugar is in universe/multiverse?
11:18 erikos tomeu: but morgan was so busy last weeks - so i wonder a bit
11:18 tomeu: if it was not before
11:19 unmadindu hello (sorry I'm late)
11:19 tomeu erikos: before?
11:19 erikos hi unmadindu
11:19 tomeu oh, before was feature freeze
11:20 which means no new packages and only bug fixes
11:20 erikos ok
11:20 hopes we get read in fedora :(
11:20 tomeu fedora had it on 3/3
11:21 erikos really hopes
11:21 sdziallas erikos: we're waiting for the cvs stuff, right?
11:21 erikos sdziallas: yes
11:22 sdziallas crosses fingers, too
11:22 erikos ok can check that later
11:23 tomeu: so yeah 16. in ubuntu land looks like the date
11:23 tomeu erikos: final freeze?
11:23 erikos tomeu: yes
11:24 tomeu: oh 9th
11:24 mandriva is not as verbose though
11:24 tomeu apr 9th, yeah
11:24 erikos but if we are ok for ubutu and fedora - i would say - we are fine
11:25 tomeu yeah, they are still working out their relationship with the community
11:26 erikos lets say our stuff should be packaged by the 3rd
11:27 tomeu sounds good
11:27 erikos which means we should calculate one week for the time it takes to build the packages from the tarballs
11:27 i mean in fedora i can do it in a few hours but i have no idea how long it takes in ubuntu
11:28 so last tarball release is the 27th?
11:28 of march
11:28 tomeu in debian/ubuntu land everything seems to take aaaaaages
11:28 erikos: will have gotten enough testing by then?
11:29 erikos tomeu: do we count on testing from the distributions?
11:30 tomeu: or more done with Soas?
11:30 tomeu erikos: right now, I would say on soas
11:31 though all testing is good
11:31 and the more diverse, the better
11:31 erikos beta releases are coming out the 24th and the 26th
11:34 tomeu: lets aim for the 27th
11:34 tomeu: we can still do releases of single components after that date
11:34 tomeu erikos: sure, and apply patches as well
11:34 erikos tomeu: i really fear the time it takes for the packaging
11:35 tomeu erikos: but it's only ubuntu that takes time, right?
11:35 erikos tomeu: yeah
11:35 tomeu alsroot and you are quite quick getting packages in your distros
11:36 and ubuntu doesn't have more time?
11:37 erikos i can offer the 3rd
11:37 tomeu :p
11:37 erikos ok lets take this then
11:38 and another coordinated release the 20th?
11:38 as a beta?
11:39 or weekly releases?
11:40 tomeu: ?
11:40 tomeu not sure, it's a bit trying to read the future :/
11:40 erikos ok beta freeze on fedora is the 10th
11:40 tomeu erikos: we are doing this for packagers
11:41 erikos and beta freeze on ubuntu the 19th
11:41 tomeu: i mean generating tarballs is not much overhead
11:41 tomeu true
11:42 erikos tomeu: where we have no changes - we just don't do it
11:42 tomeu: or we can even say - glucose weekly
11:42 tomeu sure, sure
11:42 I agree
11:42 erikos tomeu: all sucrose the 20th and the 3rd
11:43 ok, nice done with this
11:43 i will update the schedule and post it
11:43 after the meeting of course
11:44 if anyone has worries - please speak up now, or...
11:44 5
11:44 4
11:44 3
11:44 2
11:44 1
11:44 0.5
11:44 next item
11:44 b)
11:44 Kickstart 0.86 - the mouth is still sticky from 0.84 development and
11:44 this is the best moment to talk about what is next. Branching was one
11:44 part (see Branching email) getting feedback on specific features is
11:44 another one. Lets discuss what else needs to happen.
11:44 .
11:45 any questions regarding branching?
11:45 ok
11:46 now i hope to wake a few people up
11:46 tomeu heh
11:46 erikos 0.84 Features
11:46 tomeu 84 or 86?
11:46 erikos it worked!
11:46 0.86 Features
11:46 hmmmmm this magical word *Features*
11:46 sdziallas has got to run...
11:47 I'll be back in two hours or so ;)
11:47 erikos sdziallas: run quick before the Features get you!
11:47 sdziallas upcoming SoaS-2 release soonish :)
11:47 tomeu so well, we need to try to get people to tell what they need
11:47 erikos what is the plan to determine what we will work on?
11:47 sdziallas: nice!
11:47 tomeu if not, we just code on what we like and that's all
11:48 sdziallas ttyl. :)
11:49 erikos tomeu: ok, so this means a feedback loop
11:49 tomeu: something, i am just wondering is - can we get feedback from the olpc deployments?
11:49 tomeu: will they use 0.84?
11:49 tomeu well, in real life I don't think so
11:50 at least at time for 0.86
11:50 but that's not strictly needed
11:50 erikos tomeu: but maybe they would have ideas as well - that are not 'move this button'
11:50 tomeu: more deeper ideas
11:50 tomeu that's what I expect
11:51 erikos ok
11:51 tomeu I don't think they are completely happy with whatever version of sugar they use now, and I don't think we can fixed it in the newer versions
11:51 erikos so - how would a feedback loop look like in congrete
11:52 tomeu: you mean it is a fundamental problem?
11:52 tomeu: they will never like it?
11:52 tomeu hmm, no
11:53 I mean that they have interesting things to tell regardless of what version they are using
11:53 I guess that sentence was quite crappy ;)
11:53 we are not asking them to test 0.84, but to tell us what they need so we can try to cater better for their needs in 0.86
11:53 erikos ok - agreed then
11:53 right
11:54 tomeu so well, I guess we need to keep insisting
11:55 erikos do we have means to gather that information?
11:55 i mean trac and email are maybe not the right tool for it
11:55 tomeu erikos: I'm trying to gather people who want to relay that feedback: http://sugarlabs.org/go/DeploymentTeam/Places
11:55 erikos oh true - forgot about that
11:56 FGrose support-gang/Adam are starting to get more involved with contributors program and OLPCorps
11:56 walterbender tomeu: I wonder if we could get a survey done for the meeting in Uruguay?
11:56 tomeu the ones with a ? are just tentative, need to be confirmed by then
11:56 walterbender: now that's an idea!
11:56 walterbender something simple, on line
11:56 tomeu maybe we can ask fernando?
11:57 erikos walterbender: which meeting in uruguay?
11:57 walterbender tomeu: will you ask him? and we can work together on the questions
11:58 tomeu walterbender: there's some workshops for teachers that are going to happen soon
11:58 oops
11:58 walterbender looks for the URL
11:58 tomeu erikos: ^
11:58 walterbender: sure
11:59 http://translate.google.com/tr[…]ic%2F&sl=es&tl=en
11:59 walterbender http://www.fedaro.info/jornadas/ver_todo_ape.php is the attendee list
12:00 tomeu: do you know what build they will be using at the workshop?
12:01 tomeu walterbender: I guess what they have on the teachers' xos, that's 656 AFAIK
12:01 erikos thanks for the links
12:01 walterbender tomeu: :(
12:02 tomeu: could we get someone there to demo 0.84?
12:02 homunq that is very strange - when I *paste* the link in my browser, it appears without the google translate stuff
12:02 tomeu walterbender: we can ask
12:02 homunq magic, because that's what I wanted it to do
12:02 tomeu homunq: I guess it's because you have your browser in es?
12:02 as an accepted language?
12:03 walterbender tomeu: we should think about concrete questions for the survey
12:03 tomeu walterbender: yeah, in the mailing list? wiki?
12:03 erikos tomeu: all those teachers work with the XO in their daily lives, right?
12:04 walterbender si
12:04 homunq I think it is konversation which somehow knows I speak Spanish...
12:04 anyway
12:04 tomeu erikos: yup
12:04 walterbender tomeu: in the lists pointing to a wiki page
12:04 tomeu ok, let's do it
12:04 homunq I think we should give the relatively-known wishlist, translated into human language...
12:05 tomeu I will write to fernando proposing him this idea
12:05 homunq I mean, things like versioning file system...
12:05 tomeu homunq: actually, not sure people will directly ask for that
12:05 homunq yeah
12:05 walterbender homunq: google translate uses cookie, I think, and remembers the last combintion you may have used... if it was en->es, then es would be the result
12:06 tomeu but may complain about stuff that can be fixed by a versioned DS
12:06 homunq that's why we have to put a list of "things we are thinking about"
12:07 and ask people which sound best
12:08 because when it comes to new features, as opposed to fixing old ones
12:08 people may not have a good idea what is possible (or impossible)
12:09 tomeu walterbender: we don't have much time, let's see if they can organize something like that during those days
12:09 homunq: that's a good point
12:10 homunq Anyway. We [may] also need some engineering-driven priorities
12:10 walterbender tomeu: I am having the first education meeting tomorrow. maaybe this can be the topic, if anyone shows up.
12:10 homunq such as automated testing
12:10 erikos walterbender: oh an education meeting, nice
12:10 tomeu homunq: and design driven, eben and cms want to change a lot of stuff
12:11 walterbender: sounds good as well
12:11 homunq so. feature, engineering, and design
12:11 we bubble 2 ideas from each to the top
12:11 then put them in the ring an release the lions
12:12 ?
12:12 I mean, I think that a 2-stage process is appropriate.
12:12 for setting priorities.
12:13 What we can do now is start the ball rolling on stage 1 in each domain
12:13 and set a date for the big stage 2 debate?
12:13 or am I insane?
12:14 Or have people just left the meeting?
12:14 walterbender homunq: sounds sane enough. I just wonder if we could ask people to be concrete about the why and how of their proposals, not just the what.
12:16 tomeu homunq: sorry, 2 ideas of each? those will have to be quite high level, right?
12:16 perhaps more like goals?
12:16 homunq yeah
12:16 high level ideas
12:16 tomeu walterbender: do you have any idea about how to host the survey online?
12:18 homunq and the end result will not be "we are doing A B C and not D E F" but more a priority ordering.
12:18 because in the end you do what you can.
12:18 and what people are motivated for.
12:18 walterbender tomeu: there are websites that do it... I'll investigate.
12:19 tomeu well, sometimes we have had to do what we couldn't, as well
12:19 walterbender: cool, writing to fernando now
12:24 homunq OK. So, ask deployments for feature-driven (with some list of engineering possibilities and also open-ended); for design-driven, ask eben and cms to set prioties; then, for engineering-driven ... ???
12:26 And say "We are setting our priorities list on April 0X"?
12:26 I guess mailing list thread is cheap.
12:27 to answer my first question at x:24 above.
12:29 erikos ok, do we have everything to get the ball moving here?
12:29 tomeu sent mail
12:29 we use trac to track concrete tasks
12:30 tomeu homunq: sounds good, would you like to start this process?
12:30 erikos: yeah, it's a pity we don't have better integration between trac and wiki
12:31 erikos tomeu: i wonder as well - how we see quickly in trac what is a feature - and what is a bug
12:31 tomeu: i mean we have 'task'
12:31 tomeu well, enhancement, really
12:31 erikos oh right
12:32 tomeu: ok, how about we add info how a feature ticket should look like?
12:32 tomeu erikos: sounds good
12:32 erikos tomeu: so we can keep the database a bit clean
12:33 tomeu erikos: or maybe the trac ticket is minimal and there's a wiki page with more details?
12:33 erikos #action add info: how to create a feature ticket
12:33 tomeu: i somehow like using the wiki as well for that :/
12:34 tomeu: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki[…]tures/Firefox_3.1
12:36 tomeu: just as an example
12:37 tomeu erikos: yeah, I like it as well
12:38 erikos tomeu: and then you get such mails (sample sent)
12:43 homunq will attempt an initial mail
12:43 to get the thread spinning
12:43 tomeu erikos: oh, I get those as well
12:43 erikos ok, looks like we are a bit dead here
12:43 at least
12:43 homunq OK, thanks
12:43 bye
12:44 walterbender erikos: thanks
12:45 tomeu ok, so I have sent email to fernando and pablo about feedback from .uy
12:45 erikos tomeu: nice - thanks
12:45 tomeu hmm, no hernan here
12:46 erikos walterbender: so quickly - regarding your question about c
12:47 walterbender about C?
12:47 erikos point c
12:47 the release notes
12:47 walterbender erikos: I was thinking the language...
12:48 erikos walterbender: yeah - me was ambigious as always
12:48 walterbender erikos: keeps me on my toes...
12:49 erikos walterbender: i lost time with thinking about the layout of the notes
12:49 walterbender erikos: I think the 1st thing is a simple list... then we can get the design team engaged...
12:49 erikos walterbender: maybe i should collect it on the wiki first
12:50 walterbender erkos: +1
12:50 erikos walterbender: yup
12:50 tomeu what about translation, btw?
12:50 dirakx walterbender: i think cjb had the translation bot...
12:50 iirc
12:50 erikos tomeu: what do you mean - statistics?
12:50 tomeu erikos: translating the release notes
12:50 dirakx or who else has it?.
12:51 walterbender tomeu: we need to write them before we translate them :)
12:51 tomeu heh, sure
12:51 walterbender tomeu: there is a professional translator at the MEC in Peru who is willing to help with the Spanish
12:52 erikos one worries about translation the other one about design.... pfff
12:52 tomeu I always try to overlook the hard part ;)
12:52 walterbender I am just worried about getting the content
12:52 tomeu walterbender: excellent, my written spanish has degraded a lot, now that I write occasional emails in spanish
12:52 dirakx if help is needed i could help also.
12:52 tomeu well, erikos has written awesome release notes to date ;)
12:53 walterbender tomeu: bu the needs input from the activity team
12:53 if we can come up with a template, we can ask them to fill it out
12:53 tomeu oooh, true
12:53 walterbender I took a stab for TA...
12:53 tomeu so honey as well?
12:53 walterbender if possible, yes
12:53 but fructose for sure
12:53 erikos walterbender: you have a template already?
12:54 walterbender erikos: no more so than my email to you:
12:54 erikos walterbender: ok
12:54 walterbender (a) simple explanation of what changed
12:54 erikos yup - all good
12:54 ok - i am in your word to follow up on this
12:55 walterbender (b) bulleted list with references to tickets where appropriate
12:55 (c) known bugs with tickets
12:55 cjb dirakx: was aa, not me
12:55 walterbender and maybe (d) a representative screen shot
12:56 dirakx cjb: hmm ok.
12:56 erikos walterbender: ok - sounds all good to me
12:56 walterbender KISS
12:57 erikos let's close the meeting here and get things done
12:57 5
12:57 4
12:57 3
12:57 3
12:57 3
12:57 damn sticky key
12:57 2
12:57 1
12:57 thanks everyone!
12:58 homunq: can you close the bot please?
12:58 walterbender erikos: thanks
12:58 homunq #endmeeting

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