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#sugar-meeting, 2009-02-27

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
12:00 wadeb|w Hey all.  Welcome to ActivityTeam meeting #2.  Anyone who wasn't here last time, feel free to introduce yourself.
12:01 alsroot so we are starting, hi all
12:01 FGrose Hi, Listening in.
12:01 valhalla hi everybody, i'm new
12:01 garycmartin Hi folks!
12:02 wadeb|w Ok, got lots of progress to quickly go over since the last meeting.  Feel free to add in anything I forget to mention.
12:03 First of all, thanks alsroot for fixing & packaging like every damn activity for SoaS.
12:03 Also, thanks dfarning, tomeu, mick, et al for getting addons.sl.o up and running.
12:04 garycmartin ( alsroot: thanks for the moon patch! )
12:04 alsroot garycmartin: np :)
12:05 wadeb|w We've also made progress on at least half of our high profile tasks from http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/TODO.
12:05 dfarning wadeb|w; you are welcome.  keep the bug reports coming.... and with jasons help wit should look and work pretty weel soon:)
12:05 wadeb|w Speak collab is done (thanks alsroot!)
12:05 ImageQuiz is in progress by tonya - need to get an update from him
12:06 alsroot wadeb|w: "from him" or her ?
12:06 wadeb|w TamTam modifications (and activity modification in general) has been quite well documented - http://sugarlabs.org/go/Modify[…]#Modifying_TamTam
12:06 alsroot: tony anderson I think :)
12:07 walterbender are the csound issues reolved?
12:07 wadeb|w walterbender: in speak collab or in tamtam?
12:07 walterbender in general, I guess
12:07 I wonder if I should try moving Turtle Art to csound
12:07 alsroot walterbender: in TamTam (at least it works - in somehow)
12:10 wadeb|w Anyone have any additional progress to report from the last month?
12:10 I've been hacking on Typnig Turtle mostly.  Nepal plans to ship it in their deployment and I've been dealing with the insane complexity of their character set.
12:11 cjl wakes up, waves
12:11 alsroot wadeb|w: in act TT looks great
12:11 s/act/fact
12:11 wadeb|w I also snuck in a Log.activity update - ported from gnomevfs -> gio and added a draggable splitter.
12:11 walterbender amharic makes devanigari look simple :)
12:11 wadeb|w walterbender: yikes :)
12:11 walterbender silbe helped clean up some bugs in TurtleArt, although there are lots more remaining...
12:12 wadeb|w it's good, I could have started with a simple Spanish deployment, but this helps me work out the issues beforehand.
12:12 walterbender I have a request: a simple guide to gitorious
12:12 wadeb|w noted.. we've had a lot of developers complain about having a hard time w/it.
12:12 cjl walterbender: more challenging still when we don't get much in the way of L10n, but my understanding is that they do most education in English in Ethiopia
12:12 wadeb|w #ACTION write a simple guide to gitorious
12:13 #ACTION I'd also like to propose some additional activity guides:
12:13 walterbender wadeb|w:lots of people--including me--have gotten confused about things link merging...
12:13 wadeb|w #ACTION Localization (how to use Python's features, how to set up translation infrastructure like pootle, how to localize things like images, etc)
12:13 walterbender I've been keeping notes on my User page, but it is pretty scatter-brained
12:14 wadeb|w #ACTION Resolution independence.  Things like using sugar.graphics.style.GRID_CELL_SIZE and not hardcoding font sizes, as well as using Box sizers appropriately.
12:14 walterbender alsroot fixed a bug in genpot which will help a lot with Localization
12:14 wadeb|w walterbender: yeah, notes how to accept and perform merges would be good too.
12:14 and yeah, I ran into that bug as well, that's great to have fixed,.
12:14 cjl wadeb|w: Yes, on L10n, it would be very helpful if a clearer flow from new lang-en activity to fully checked int oPootle.
12:15 wadeb|w #ACTION Posting.  How to release newly developed activities.  Our importing frmo d.l.o guide is pretty complete, but we could use something for new activities coming from outside.
12:15 Anyone else got any guides they they think would benefit a lot of authors?
12:17 walterbender we should come up with some documentation guidelines
12:17 and perhaps instructions on how to create a FLOSS manual about your activity
12:17 wadeb|w Yes, good idea.
12:18 alsroot in case of docs -- I've mentioned (wile packaging var. activities) there is lack on internal docs
12:18 I mean gui docs
12:18 wadeb|w What do people think about that?
12:18 How should we be including documentation in our activities?
12:19 walterbender We have the almanac, but it is a bit disorganized and incomplete
12:19 pgf ideally the activity could display the doc via Browse.  ;-)
12:19 cafl We should have help as has been proposed
12:19 garycmartin wadeb|w: I still see the need to doc as a fail in design, but I know I'm out numbered :-)
12:19 walterbender how do we currently feel about .xol bundles?
12:19 cjl wadeb|w: I had sketched out some notes on a classigication rubric for the activity surevey  http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Sandbox  Might be some ideas for you on actvity develeopment guidelines.
12:20 walterbender because packaging for the browser can be complicated
12:20 if you have images, etc.
12:20 I did some rude embedded image hacks in TurtleArt as an end-run
12:20 wadeb|w Ok, pretty good survey.  garycmartin - heh, I agree in principal but some activities are just too shall we say "feature rich" :)
12:21 Finance has some cheezy help built into each screen.  the MaMaMedia apps have some lesson plans built in too.
12:21 cjl Calculate has some function help strings
12:21 pgf walterbender: my comment was tongue-in-cheek, because it's impossible for an activity to launch browse at the moment, no matter how complex or simple the content.
12:21 garycmartin walterbender: .xol bundles, until we have a lightweight browse like widget, .xol won't go away. It might also become a place for docs auto installed by activities.
12:21 wadeb|w but it would be nice to have some unified help system
12:21 pgf wadeb|w: +1
12:21 wadeb|w cjl: I like it! http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Sandbox
12:21 walterbender and a help system that the end user can add to
12:22 wadeb|w I guess one question is - should help be in the activity, or part of the system?
12:22 ie, should there be a help button in the standard toolbar?
12:22 and should it launch browse or just drop down a journal like widget?
12:22 cjl wadeb|w: Thanks, I was trying to capture some things that seemed to get spotty attention by activity devels.  Please take and modify that as needed.
12:23 garycmartin wadeb|w: Most kids won't read docs, so we are just writing for the adults, right? Unless you want to make pictorials (comics) or video of features...
12:23 walterbender cjl: I wish you could use a C (collaboration) and V (view source) and maybe a J (journal) or R (reflection)
12:23 Maybe CoVeR IMAGE
12:23 wadeb|w pgf: I think you can create a journal entry with a file:// url, and then show the journal programatically
12:23 hehe
12:23 cjl walterbender: I ran out of cute acronym energy :-)
12:23 wadeb|w cjl, walterbender yeah, we should finish that up and post it, it's great.
12:23 pgf wadeb|w: i'd like a pointer to a HOWTO for that, if so.
12:24 wadeb|w pgf: someone sent me a tiny cmdline script once, can't remember who :)  might violate rainbow tho
12:24 pgf wadeb|w: aye, there's the rub.
12:25 cjl wadeb|w: walterbender Please do take that forward out of the Sandbox, I'm more interested in contribution than attribution
12:25 wadeb|w cjl: gotcha
12:26 ok, I posted these guides to the ATeam TODO list.
12:26 feel free to get them started, anyone.
12:27 walterbender cjl: Ill write up something for CVR
12:27 wadeb|w (they are under Community Tasks)
12:27 garycmartin cjl: re calculate, I was planning to add the strings as secondary menu items. Think it would work much better as a generl light weight help (hint) solution for many.
12:27 wadeb|w what namespace should we use?  ActivityTeam/LocalizationGuide?  ActivityTeam/Guides/Localization?
12:27 alsroot +1 for ActivityTeam/Guides/
12:27 wadeb|w garycmartin: and yeah, I think adults are the primary audience for help
12:28 cjl ActivityTeam/Guides
12:28 wadeb|w garycmartin: kids tend to figure things out by playing more often
12:28 cjl That can branch and get busahier as needed later
12:28 cafl But if kids ask adults, adults read manuals.
12:29 wadeb|w right.. it's important to have the help available in there somewhere
12:29 cjl wadeb|w: even a link to a stable wiki page is a start
12:30 realizes stable and wiki page represents an oxymoron.
12:30 wadeb|w cjl: yeah, I'm wondering what to do about that - so far we have identified the SL.o Activities/XXXX pages as "for devs" to avoid the w.l.o mess
12:30 cjl: also it would be best to ship any docs we produce with the activities in case the users don't have internet, right?
12:30 cjl yes
12:30 wadeb|w cjl: and there has to be some mechanism for translators to translate the documentation
12:31 garycmartin wadeb|w: The addons site is only for weak level of documentation, not full guide material.
12:31 wadeb|w garycmartin: yeah, for sure.  ...so I'm thinking it should go in .xo bundle?
12:31 cjl I'm jsut suggesting that nay publically accessible page is a start, not an end- goal
12:31 wadeb|w maybe a Foo.activity/doc/en_US/index.html like system?
12:31 where index.html can be translated using Pootle somehow?
12:31 maybe HTML is the wrong format, maybe it should be markdown or something that normal people can write.
12:32 garycmartin wadeb|w: Well get bad activity bloat I'm sure if docs go in....
12:32 wadeb|w cjl: yeah, I agree that we need to start somewhere
12:32 cjl Well ideall FLOSS manulas for something bigger
12:33 garycmartin For those that need it, go fo a separate 'book' download, ideally an activity based one so it's a 1st class component.
12:34 cafl There was a cool, almost finished javascript activity that made it easy to create comic strips.  It made it easy to put bubbles of speech over images.  Kids like comics and would read help in that form I think.  If it was easier to create, maybe a good kind of help (and the bubbles text would be translatable.)
12:34 cjl Ther eshould be something of a gradient, a wiki page during creation, a FLOSS manual for a relatively stablew widely sued activity,
12:34 garycmartin (back to a lightweight html widget for a template viewer activity)
12:34 cjl thinks it should have good spell checking too :-)
12:35 wadeb|w so do people generally prefer that documentation be separate from the activity itself?  that potentially simplifies things.
12:35 (in comic book, html, FLOSS manual, etc form)
12:35 alsroot wadeb|w: guess we could use some links to docs in activity's code
12:36 cafl I think people like to see the help with the thing they want help with. not flipping back and forth.
12:36 cjl wadeb|w: If in FLOSS manual, process for refreshing HelpActivity to get it local could be worked out.
12:36 garycmartin cafl: I like the comic idea :-) Artists seem hard to find though.
12:36 cafl It is possible to use screen shots, templates with kids talking, for that perhaps.
12:37 wadeb|w yeah, I'm not seeing a clear consensus.  I guess it's that there seem to be multiple "levels" of help - go and read about the activity vs what does this button do
12:37 is there another need in between "what do I do on this screen?" and "activity X for dummies"?
12:37 garycmartin wadeb|w: I'm happy with lightweight help in activity, like your finance inline help works well, or by adding to the 2ndary menus. Big help/tutorials should be separate, lots of translation issues and effort there.
12:38 cafl I like little "show me" movies as well.  Wouldn't need to be very hi res and could use speex sound?
12:38 dfarning FWIW, I will be with the FLOSS manuals team next.  So ping me with suggestions on how we can work together.
12:38 wadeb|w cafl: yeah, movies would be nice.. someday when we have 100 activities all working great on XO and SoaS we need to spend a weekend and make youtube videos of each one.
12:39 sdziallas wadeb|w: oh yeah... videos :)
12:39 wadeb|w garycmartin: ok, here's where I'm at now.  We should request a lightweight help feature from the Sugar Toolkit folks, so it can be standardized.  Help text must be small enoguh to be contained in the source code as translatable strings, so we're not talking anything crazy extensive here.
12:39 garycmartin wadeb|w: Yes, good plan.
12:40 wadeb|w: (youtube vid weekend)
12:40 alsroot wadeb|w: +1
12:40 wadeb|w garycmartin: regarding "book" level help for activities, we need to a) talk with the FLOSS manuals team and b) get the .xol situation sorted out
12:40 cjl dfarning: If the FLOSS folks have methods/plans for simplified MediaWiki > FLOSS migration, that would help bride the gap in tool usage skills.  You could start a chapter on the wiki and someone else could pull it into a FLOSS page.
12:40 wadeb|w dfarning: so, maybe we can pick a couple activities for the FLOSS folks to try writing quick (1-2 page) guides?
12:41 walterbender cjl: 1st pass at http://sugarlabs.org/go/User_t[…]ndbox#COVER_IMAGE
12:41 wadeb|w loser: hey, glad you could make it!  we're talking about activity help.
12:41 garycmartin wadeb|w: I think the inline stuff is alredy doable, no new code needed from core team. Just use the 2ndary palettes, you can  get a scentence or so in each (already tried with calulate). Looks nice and is 'right there'
12:41 loser hey wade. i almost missed it.
12:42 wadeb|w garycmartin: ok, we should add it to the "guide" then.  would it be appropriate for what I'm doing in Finance as well?
12:42 dfarning cjl, wadeb|w I have added those dicsussions to my tolist
12:42 walterbender garycmartin: maybe for 0.87 we can let those secondary menus be modified locally and shared
12:43 wadeb|w walterbender: has anyone considered writing a Translate activity?
12:43 walterbender: ie something to locally pick up .po files from activities and allow the user to update strings?
12:44 cjl wadeb|w: That could be done by sugarizing Virtaal
12:44 garycmartin walterbender: yes, locally edits could be nice; or convice folks to edit source... (perhaps the view source could allow strings to be edited?)
12:44 cjl http://translate.sourceforge.n[…]iki/virtaal/index
12:44 walterbender wade|b: cscott had an inline translation widget he'd be experimenting with
12:44 cjl or poedit, but Virtall has a nice GUI
12:45 cafl I was intrigued by the email thread on (who knows what) list regarding the grab key.  Is there some clever way to use a similar technique to enable a more interactive help?
12:45 walterbender but I had something a little different in mind, although it could use the same interface.
12:45 garycmartin wadeb|w: Finance, I'll read through your strings again and have a think. I'd do calculate as a working example and see what folks think.
12:45 walterbender I'd like the kids to be able to write their own documentation and share it in the neighborhood
12:46 wadeb|w cafl: what kind of a help UI are you thinking?
12:46 cafl: like, press this key and whatever the mouse is over describes "what it does"?
12:46 cafl (or interactive translation)...make a show code key be show translation.  Why are we fixated on making the world's children little programmers?  maybe they should be little explainers?
12:46 wadeb|w cafl: heh, good sentiment.. so a key that would bring up the current activity's .po file in an overlay window?
12:47 cafl Yes wadeb|w I'm thinking of a way to "click" on a text and then translate.  Didn't Chris Ball or Scott show a demo of something like that for automatic translation?
12:48 (In the xo camp or whatever led to all the youtube videos).
12:48 bemasc cafl: cscott prototyped exactly that
12:48 walterbender cafl: CScoot demoed it
12:48 cafl Thanks, I get mixed up on who is who since never see anyone in person.
12:49 wadeb|w yeah, we should see where that work ended up - I missed the demo so I'm not sure how it was implemented
12:49 cafl I will attempt to find the video and send a link later.
12:50 wadeb|w ok, time is running short, let's discuss addons
12:50 cjl semi-related thread http://lists.laptop.org/piperm[…]tober/020417.html
12:51 wadeb|w So, has everyone had a chance to try out activities.sugarlabs.org?
12:51 We still don't have a lot of bundles up there yet - in fact there are more in Honey thanks to alsroot :)
12:52 Just wondering if people are having trouble posting, or if it's that we haven't gotten enough of the old authors involved.
12:52 (my own activities are taking time because I'm slow ;))
12:52 although I did finally post Finance yesterday
12:52 loser wadeb|w: sweet
12:52 cjl wadeb|w: I would make a renewed call to close out OLPC Trac tickets so it is a migration and not a fork.
12:53 wadeb|w cjl: yeah, I have bugs open on SL for closing those, I will try to get to it soon
12:53 garycmartin activities.sl.org is still broke right? addons.sl.org is the only way I can get there.
12:53 wadeb|w garycmartin: yeah, you're right, my bad
12:53 alsroot wadeb|w: how could we post activities that are unmaintened by original devs but patched in some way and packaged in honey (for example) ?
12:53 cjl wadeb|w:  Not picking on anyone in particular, would just like to see it considered normative behavior
12:53 wadeb|w garycmartin: we are moving -> activities.sl.o though
12:54 cafl a.sl.o needs a "reading" or "literacy" or "words" category.
12:54 wadeb|w alsroot: I guess, we should just take them over
12:54 alsroot: and invite the original authors to get back involved when they have time
12:55 alsroot wadeb|w: in that case we should mark activity poster like "not orig. dev" or current-maint
12:55 dfarning cafl; please file a bug in dev.sugarlabs.org so we dont lose the idea
12:55 cafl ok
12:56 wadeb|w cafl: yeah, great idea
12:56 #ACTION <cafl> a.sl.o needs a "reading" or "literacy" or "words" category.
12:56 alsroot dfarning: could we mark person who post activity to aslo as "not orig. dev" ?
12:57 wadeb|w alsroot: yeah, it's a good idea to differentiate
12:57 dfarning alsroot; me looks
12:57 pgf wadeb|w: is there a guide to migrating activities?  and, more importantly, is it a goal that all activities be migrated?
12:57 wadeb|w alsroot: it coudl be mentioned in the "support" area of the a.sl.o tag
12:57 pgf: there is a guide: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Activi[…]migrate_from_OLPC
12:58 garycmartin FWIW: There's a design team meeting tomorrow that will likely also be hittin on some a.sl.o topics.
12:58 wadeb|w pgf: and yeah, we are politely asking people to consider migrating - along with making sure the activities run on SoaS etc
12:58 pgf: migration status is maintained at ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus
12:59 FGrose Design team moved to Sunday 1 March
12:59 garycmartin FGrose: Thanks, must get through the rest of my email...
12:59 pgf wadeb|w: thanks.  i'll see if i can move RoadMap over one of these days.  is there special wiki markup for "legacy, not very sugary" activities?
13:00 wadeb|w pgf: heh, you can add a tag if you want :)
13:00 pgf: would be great to have RoadMap migrated!
13:00 cjl Aspartame
13:00 pgf wadeb|w: okay.  "sour"
13:00 wadeb|w lol
13:01 Ok all, I'm out - catching a flight in a couple hours and have to go home and get ready.
13:01 garycmartin wadeb|w: thanks for you time!
13:01 wadeb|w Thanks for coming and we'll try for a shorter gap between this meeting and the next one.  I'm thinking 2 weeks.
13:01 dfarning alsroot; that information might best be located in the developer comments portion of the description
13:01 cjl thanks wadeb|w I'm glad I stumbled in.  Tghis was a good convo.
13:02 wadeb|w I've added what tasks I noticed to the ActivityTeam/TODO and ActivityTeam/ProjectIdeas pages but feel free to go check it out and and add anything I missed.
13:02 alsroot dfarning: should we create aslo user "Activity Team" w/ common email and so to cover all activities w/o orig. devs. ?
13:03 wadeb|w cjl: definitely a good meeting, thanks for stopping by.
13:03 Oh, and before I forget...
13:03 alsroot I mean I dont like my name in "submitted by.." for not my own activity
13:03 wadeb|w Reminder: Go to http://sugarlabs.org/go/Activi[…]m/GettingInvolved and perform the "Join the Activity Team" steps!
13:03 alsroot dfarning: ^
13:03 wadeb|w heh, sorry alsroot
13:04 dfarning wadeb|w; I'll start sending out another round of migration email reminders over the next couple weeks
13:04 wadeb|w And don't forget to "Watch" the ActivityTeam page for news updates.
13:04 dfarning: thanks, those have been great in getting people reinvolved
13:04 dfarning I sent some last week an got rather overwhelmed
13:04 wadeb|w ok, I'm out.. later all!
13:06 dfarning alsroot; will do.
13:07 FGrose #endmeeting
13:27 cjl dfarning: Um, wade left without ending the meeting bot logging I think.
13:28 switches back to inside voice
08:02 erikos is there a design meeting now?
08:04 tomeu design meeting, cool!
08:04 garycmartin erikos: I hope so, I woke up extra early (for me) ;-)
08:04 erikos garycmartin: :)
08:06 walterbender I believe so too.
08:07 tomeu maybe some timezone confusion?
08:08 garycmartin erikos: is there a quick terminal command to find out the sugar version, the CP in cjb's F11 build jush has 0.83.x ;-)
08:08 walterbender I'll send Christian an email ping
08:09 erikos garycmartin: rpm -q sugar
08:10 garycmartin: and then the (version -1)
08:10 garycmartin: i have fixed it in the latest packages i made
08:10 garycmartin: they contain 0.83.6 or whatever it is at the moment
08:13 garycmartin erikos: Cool, it's telling me 0.83.8-1
08:15 erikos garycmartin: sorry it is actually -2
08:15 garycmartin erikos: :-)
08:15 erikos garycmartin: so you are running 0.83.6
08:15 garycmartin: but you can only rely on that calculation now - not in general
08:17 garycmartin erikos: oh my, I'll wait for you fine CP addition then in future (still rpm -q is a nice hint to check a package version if I need to dig, thanks) :-)
08:18 erikos garycmartin: yes absolutely it is fine for checking rpm versions
08:18 garycmartin: see the issue is:
08:18 garycmartin: the sugar package is 0.83.8
08:18 garycmartin: sugar toolkit is 0.83.7
08:18 garycmartin: and sugar-artwork 0.83.4
08:19 garycmartin: but the version of Sucrose is 0.83.6
08:19 garycmartin: (hope this explains it)
08:20 garycmartin erikos: Thanks, yes.
08:27 walterbender maybe we can have a bit of a design discussion while we wait for Christian?
08:28 I think there are three major topics, but Christian may have more
08:28 garycmartin Sure, I'm just drinking tea and getting used to daylight here.
08:28 walterbender (1) 0.86 planning
08:28 (2) Overall branding for the various s.o sites
08:28 (3) The static landing page
08:29 Of course, suddenly #3 has had a lot of attention.
08:29 sdziallas should catch a coffee, though ;)
08:29 walterbender enjoying his first cup of themorning
08:29 garycmartin walterbender: Yea the SOM lit up about it this week.
08:30 walterbender Maybe we can talk about #3 for a few minutes?
08:31 I felt like there were two different conversations going on...
08:31 checking the SOM to see if it confirms my feeling
08:32 (a) there is the question of the design itself and (b) the question of the message we need to convey
08:32 a & b were often confused in the discussion
08:32 and I think it was my fault for not playing a better role in moderating the discussion.
08:33 Personally, I think the design is very strong and the content very weak
08:33 But I think the weak content caused a lot of confusion about the design
08:33 and exposed some design flaws as well.
08:34 Sean made an important point: the audience for the static site is not Sugar users or Sugar developers.
08:35 The latter will be happy in the wiki; the former at add-ons (for the time beign)
08:35 But parents and teachers are turned off by the wiki.
08:35 And they come to the site with a different set of questions.
08:35 We tried to address their needs...
08:36 It would be great if we had more pictures, but we got (almost) no response from the field over the course of two  months of weekly pleas
08:36 Not sure why.
08:37 And we could use hep wordsmithing
08:37 garycmartin The landing page needs to be very clear and friendly, the current design is strong, but that doesn't make it good or right for SL.
08:37 walterbender garycmartin: have you seen the weekend sketches?
08:38 garycmartin walterbender: I don't think so, where should I go look?
08:38 walterbender looking for URL
08:39 http://www.christianmarcschmid[…]abs/betasite_alt/
08:39 garycmartin walterbender: (just realised, I've never clicked on the 2 images, kids/sharks to the right of the landing page, likely due to all the text distracting/confusing me)
08:40 erikos garycmartin: yeah - there is quite a bit of text :/
08:40 sdziallas walterbender: imo (just my opinion), this page looks even better than the one before did. it seems to be less confusing (at least to me).
08:40 walterbender I think we need more and better videos, more and better images,...
08:40 and the could still be tighten up...
08:41 but I think the design itself is quite solid and useble
08:41 and it has a quality to it that says, this is a professional effort.
08:41 garycmartin walterbender: the sketch is looking better.
08:41 erikos walterbender: oh - that looks better now - with the explanatory text
08:43 walterbender I think the text is still too wordy and I need to tighten up the interior text too...
08:43 Any concrete feedback about the design itself?
08:44 erikos walterbender: almost one million children in over 40 countries.
08:44 walterbender: this sounds a bit much to me
08:44 walterbender I think that is accurate
08:44 > 750000 rounds to almost 1 million
08:45 and I am sure there is Sugar in 40+ countries...
08:45 erikos yeah - but 40 countries?
08:45 maybe with all the pilots, hmmm
08:45 walterbender I'll double-check on that number, but I am pretty confident in it...
08:45 garycmartin walterbender: the unexpected scrolling, pulsing document effect has been removed now right?
08:46 erikos shrugs and get better back to code if we have so many users
08:46 walterbender garycmartin: I don't know if I ever experienced that effect
08:46 garycmartin: what browser do you use?
08:46 garycmartin Safari, but FF as well when testing.
08:47 erikos walterbender: maybe with the 'free' - we could add open source
08:47 garycmartin walterbender: It was  the effect when clicking ...the...elipsis...texts...
08:47 walterbender erikos: maybe "it is free software'?
08:48 garycmartin: I never saw any pulsing... hmm
08:48 erikos walterbender: yeah - i am not sure yet if we should mention free as in beer
08:48 walterbender: i mean it is actually
08:48 walterbender But I only checked the site with FF and Opera
08:48 erikos walterbender: and this matter to many people i guess
08:49 walterbender: the problem is - when you read today 'something is free' in most cases it is not
08:49 walterbender erikos: then, free and open-source software...
08:49 erikos walterbender: yeah - having both makes it maybe clearer
08:49 walterbender erikos: in this case, the software is free in both senses of the word
08:49 erikos walterbender: and the word 'free' not as strong
08:49 garycmartin walterbender: is it possible to use an inline effect to play the sugar UI video on the page?
08:49 erikos walterbender: right
08:50 walterbender erikos: but most people don't know what free and open-source means...
08:50 erikos walterbender: yeah, i know - we need another comic for that
08:50 walterbender which is why we try to explain it on the site...
08:50 erikos walterbender: (which might actually be a good idea)
08:50 walterbender erikos: +1
08:50 erikos walterbender: awesome :)
08:50 walterbender erikos: more narratives
08:51 tomeu need to go cook some food, but the vision of a comic book by several artists explaining the concepts around sugar came to my head the other day after seeing the one in the beta site
08:51 I think it's an effective way to work on a complex matter
08:51 walterbender just heard from Christian: he thinks the meeting is at 10am
08:52 erikos tomeu: absolutely - and it is strong laison - to have word and text together telling a story
08:52 walterbender tomeu: we need to recruit more artists
08:52 tomeu I really loved the one we have now, though I could understand other people don't like it so much
08:54 garycmartin walterbender: 2nd page, black inverted highlights, get in the way of reading.
08:55 walterbender: (like page has correction fluid fixing mistakes)
08:55 walterbender garycmartin: I am not sure it is a show-stopper.
08:56 garycmartin walterbender: same with the 3rd page. This one needs plenty of tightening up layout wise.
08:56 walterbender garycmartin: it is used infrequently and it is an effective way of drawing attention.
08:57 garycmartin walterbender: all the //// make it look like some kind of source code comments
08:57 walterbender garycmartin: to a software engineer, perhaps
08:58 garycmartin walterbender: The empty, blank white area to the page right, that's going to have thumb image content in?
08:58 walterbender: (like page1 does)
08:59 walterbender garycmartin: yes... but we need content--ideally things kids make...
08:59 garycmartin walterbender: good, that will help lots.
09:00 walterbender garycmartin: yes. that was part of the original design... but I haven't had much luck getting images from the field
09:01 garycmartin: maybe in the short term, we should just use images we make ourselves... less authentic though
09:03 garycmartin walterbender: I'm happy to see the menu is now static on the page (not a floater). The menu content seems a little confusing for navigating (the nesting is the issue)
09:06 walterbender: The 'about' sub section vs. top level items. I think it's that menu don't work this way. No pop-up menu I've ever seen had a container that's also an item.
09:07 walterbender garycmartin: interesting point... I wonder why not?
09:09 garycmartin walterbender: aha so clicking a top level container just defaults to the first item in the container.
09:11 walterbender: I guess if the menu at least showed breadcrumbs, that would allow you to see where you really were.
09:12 walterbender garycmartin: good suggestion
09:12 garycmartin walterbender: So (after selection) it would show "about -> overview", "about -> features", or "contributors -> teams".
09:14 BTW: it's a little of a fiddle to get to items in the contributor sub menu if you not careful with mousing (the menu auto hides)
09:16 Menu might just need a short delay timer before hiding, so careless mousing outside the box is less painful.
09:16 walterbender garycmartin: another good idea
09:20 garycmartin walterbender: regarding image content, screenshots of Sugar's UI 'doing things' will help even if it's not all kids works just now. Seeing Sugar screenshots will help explain what Sugar is about.
09:21 walterbender garycmartin: I think we all agree about that
09:22 garycmartin walterbender: It's a pitty, I could have sent some Paint work my nieces and nephew did, but they just got into the habit of painting out their work to start again (couldn't find the Stop button)
09:26 walterbender: have you trawled flicker for possible sugar image content?
09:28 walterbender garycmartin: not exhaustively...
09:28 garycmartin http://flickr.com/groups/colombiaolpc
09:30 walterbender garycmartin: the problem is most photos are kids with computers, not kids learning with computers...
09:30 garycmartin walterbender: true, I  could see Maze collaboration going on at least.
09:32 walterbender garycmartin: I'll take a closer look
09:33 tomeu walterbender: do you know if there's anything that could be done about the video?
09:34 it's a bit sad that just because NN didn't liked circles circumscribed inside squares, we fail to project the image that someone will see when launching sugar for the first time
09:36 walterbender tomeu: Eben produced it... it was a lot of work...
09:37 tomeu ok, I guess I can ask him later during the meeting
09:40 garycmartin walterbender: http://www.flickr.com/photos/l[…]greco/2957778110/
09:40 walterbender: not sure who was behind that one.
09:41 walterbender: (there are stills of what look like kids hands drawing the green car in Scratch)
09:44 walterbender garycmartin: nice video, but Sugar plays a pretty minor role...
09:45 garycmartin http://flickr.com/photos/rober[…]in/pool-onelaptop another Scratch (not from a kid I think, but could be)
09:50 walterbender: I see what you mean  about not 'kids with computers' there are heaps of those....
09:52 walterbender: just saw a realy old shot of abiwrite... ug how did it get so complicate now with all the tabs :-(
09:53 walterbender garycmartin: alas, that is the way of all software :(
09:53 garycmartin: I am as guilty as the rest:  turtleart is bloated now too :(
09:55 garycmartin walterbender: bloat (feature) are fine, the trick is making the set pf main ones visible, keeping the rest for advanced diggers.
09:55 (... the set of main ones...)
09:56 walterbender garycmartin: yeah. I just pushed a new version of TA where I reorganized the palettes to try to accomplish exactly that...
09:56 garycmartin thinks we don't hide some of this stuff in sub palettes enough
09:57 walterbender garycmartin: I think that a lot has to do with how useful the default toolbar is...
09:57 garycmartin walterbender: :-)
09:57 walterbender garycmartin: often you need not leave the default toolbar
09:59 garycmartin walterbender: Rescuing much of the space from the 'share with' will help significantly.
09:59 walterbender garycmartin: yes, but many activities don't default to the Activity toolbar
10:00 garycmartin walterbender: (smaller share icon with palette)
10:01 walterbender: you mean like TA's on canvas 'palettes' and things like Scratch?
10:02 eben Hello everyone.
10:02 garycmartin eben: Hi
10:03 walterbender garycmartin: I mean that by default, TA starts on the Project toolbar, where mostly you stay...
10:04 garycmartin: Browse starts on the Browse toolbar...
10:04 tomeu eben: hi!
10:04 and hi, FGrose
10:04 walterbender eben: good morning
10:04 FGrose Hi
10:04 garycmartin walterbender: understood.
10:04 walterbender leaving in 10 minutes to pick my daughter up at the airport :) :(
10:04 eben So, I'm a little confused.  EST is UTC-5, right?
10:05 walterbender eben: yes... we thought the meeting started at 8am EST
10:05 eben But Christian sent mail saying that the design meeting was at 8am then....
10:05 tomeu garycmartin: what do you think about the new toolbar proposal from eben?
10:05 walterbender eben: we've been hanging out, talking.
10:05 eben I think he meant it to be 10, as that was the time he last discussed with me.
10:05 tomeu eben: we have solved all the design issues in your absence :p
10:05 eben And he also informed me a little bit ago that he'd be about 10 minutes late.
10:05 walterbender eben: yes. I confirmed that with him this morning.
10:06 eben tomeu: fantastic!
10:06 tomeu that means killing X and using ncurses
10:06 eben I'll just go make brunch then. :-P
10:06 walterbender eben: we had mostly been talking about the website... saving the 0.86 discussion for the group.
10:06 eben walterbender: OK.
10:06 garycmartin tomeu: I like it, lot's of atrwork challenges, but it's better that utility than we have now. ... But needs the Stop button all the time at top ;-)
10:08 tomeu garycmartin: one way to subvert eben's decisions is to make a mistake and let a "bug" slip into the implementation
10:08 garycmartin tomeu: ncurses, cool a decent UI at last ;-b
10:08 eben tomeu: :-P
10:08 tomeu garycmartin: if he really cares, he'll fix it himself, but that doesn't happen 100% of the cases :p
10:09 garycmartin tomeu: I like the way you think :-)
10:09 tomeu sneaky, yeah
10:12 eben So, hopefully Christian will be here shortly and we can discuss some designs.  We both wanted to get re-aquainted with the state of things, and work out a preliminary roadmap for the next release.
10:12 tomeu ok
10:13 walterbender eben: I think the 0.84 changes are great!!! a huge boost to usability
10:14 especially the resume functionality !!
10:14 eben walterbender: Excellent. I only have cursory knowledge of them. :)
10:14 walterbender: I'm glad people are finding that a good change.  I'm still a little worried that people won't find how to start new activities, though.  How do you find it to be?
10:14 walterbender eben: they eliminate about 5 steps and eliminate most of the Journal spam...
10:15 the Journal is much more useful now.
10:15 eben walterbender: awesome
10:15 garycmartin walterbender: I just have cjb's latest F11 build on my XO, so I've just caught up with the Sugar changes over the last ~3 weeks. Looking great.
10:16 cms good morning--sorry i'm late
10:16 garycmartin I love that the palettes now show the 'Start' (New in next cycle) item as a white outline activity icon.
10:16 tomeu walterbender: we didn't got to label the palette item "Start new" instead of "Start" because of the string freeze, but if you think it's very important, we can ask unmadindu if he thinks we can get a string freeze
10:17 ooops, that was for eben
10:17 hi cms!
10:17 cms hi tomeu
10:17 what are we discussing?
10:17 eben tomeu: Oh, do we have menu sections!?
10:18 (labels for them, that is)
10:18 garycmartin cms: hi
10:18 tomeu eben: do we?
10:18 cms hi gary
10:18 tomeu cms: starting new activity instances from the palette in the home view
10:19 eben tomeu: I don't know.  I'm asking, since that's where the "resume recent" and "start new" were supposed to be.
10:19 cms tomeu: ah, i saw most of that was already implemented, correct?
10:20 tomeu eben, cms: we don't have labelled sections in palettes yet :/
10:20 so it's not 100% as the design says
10:20 eben cms: UTC 15:00 = EST 10:00 ;)
10:20 tomeu: Oh, so where's the labels? We don't have any?
10:20 cms heh
10:21 can we actually back up for a second and talk about the development schedule?
10:21 is there a date set for the new release?
10:21 tomeu eben: no section labels, no
10:21 eben: but we do have separators, at leasr
10:22 t5
10:22 argh
10:22 cms: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]m/Release/Roadmap
10:22 eben tomeu: sure, but that doesn't make the reason for the separation clear.  But OK. :)  We need to make those then.
10:22 tomeu eben: sure, I agree those labels are important
10:23 cms tomeu: thanks!
10:23 eben tomeu: I think we're more interested in the 0.86 roadmap.
10:23 cms eben: yes, that would be helpfu
10:23 tomeu oooh
10:24 no roadmap yet
10:24 eben To get an idea of the timeline we want to plan on coming up.
10:24 cms since we are days away from 0.84
10:24 tomeu but we would like to release again in 6 months, aprox
10:24 eben OK, well, what's the approx. number of months between releases, usually?
10:24 cms that's good to know
10:24 eben 6, OK, great.
10:25 cms eben, should we recap all of the main features we want to address in that timeframe?
10:25 tomeu nice
10:25 cms some of these may already have been implemented
10:25 eben cms: I think we should, yeah.  We should also refine those added in 0.84.
10:25 tomeu what I have started to do regarding 0.86 is try to get contacts that can proxy feedback from places where sugar is being used
10:25 eben tomeu: excellent/
10:25 tomeu I haven't had much success yet, but want to scale up this efforts in th enext days
10:26 cms tomeu: that's great, that feedback will be invaluable
10:26 when are kids given the opportunity to give feedback?
10:26 tomeu cms: they can always enter a ticket or send email ;)
10:26 cms great
10:27 eben OK, so should we just list the items we think are important (without any discussion, just so we get a full list) and then go from there?
10:27 tomeu cms: I guess we need to set up some kind of process so direct contributions get translated, summarized and categorized
10:27 cms eben: yes, let's do that
10:27 eben tomeu: yeah, that would be great.
10:27 cms so, one of the most important features was mesh chat
10:27 tomeu so teachers and parents would ask kids, and someone would summarize that
10:27 something like that
10:27 cms tomeu: yes it makes sense that it be facilitated
10:28 eben " Make Groups view work properly (more like the neighborhood)
10:28 " Add list (or list-like) views to all zoom levels, for scalability & keyboard navigability
10:29 " Sweet new toolbars
10:30 " something controversial: remove ring view/favorites; use grid and/or freeform view
10:31 tomeu * labelled palette sections
10:32 cms let's figure out which of these features we can address, and if we can't do all of them, we probably need to prioritize...
10:32 eben I'm sure there are many smaller ones, but I think these are the biggest on my mind.
10:32 cms most important in my opinion are mesh chat, groups view, home view
10:32 eben cms: You think we have a pretty comprehensive list of the big ones here?
10:32 garycmartin - Jouranal grid view?
10:32 cms eben: yes, that sums it up i believe
10:33 eben garycmartin: Right....the "new Journal" is another really big change.
10:33 cms garycmartin: good call
10:33 tomeu what about the action/object separation in the journal?
10:33 eben I might actually recommend pushing that off one more release so we can get the rest of the UI (zoom levels) working perfectly first.
10:33 (Not that I don't *really* want to make that change...)
10:33 cms tomeu: the new journal is an important area to focus on, but i agree with eben that we should try to resolve the other areas first
10:34 eben We might talk about some pieces of the Journal that could be improved though...
10:34 tomeu what means "remove ring view/favorites; use grid and/or freeform view"?
10:34 cms the journal works well enough in its current state for another release, but the other areas are more pressing
10:34 eben We could still use the sort-bar, and mutliple selection, etc.
10:34 These can happen without a transplant.
10:34 tomeu I'm ready to work on the weekends on the action/object separation :p
10:35 eben OK, well, cms, maybe we should start with Home?
10:35 cms tomeu: the action/object separation is ultimately an important change...
10:35 eben: ok
10:35 eben cms: I think that might be the hardest to get consensus around.
10:35 So, Christian and I have been doing a lot of thinking...
10:36 tomeu cms: apart from other obvious benefits, if we have an object view in the journal, probably with hierarchy, means we can interface with the filesystem as some people want
10:36 cms now that we have had some time to experience the new home view, there are some modifications we think would make it more usable
10:36 the first observation is that people don't use the favorites
10:36 eben And we've both independently come to the conclusion that the ring doesn't really serve the purpose we had intended
10:36 Mostly because people either don't know about, or don't make use of favorites to an advantage.
10:37 cms this comes as a bit of a surprise, but it was an interesting finding
10:37 tomeu that means that people don't use the ring, or don't use the starring thing?
10:37 eben And we think that this distinction is likely more confusing in the end than a view which plainly and simply shows all installed activities.
10:37 cms because people aren't using favorites, they tend to show *everything* in the main, ring view
10:37 eben tomeu: It means that the ring doesn't really "work", since it's really only designed to hold 10-20 activities.
10:37 tomeu ok
10:37 cms in other words, they aren't *de-starring* items to free up the ring
10:37 eben The ring isn't serving their use cases well.
10:38 tomeu I see
10:38 cms has anyone else observed this?
10:38 eben So, I think cms and I have slightly different interpretations of what this means, but it involves some combination of freeform, grid, and list views.
10:38 garycmartin cms: not here. Ring view is certainly my fav layout.
10:38 tomeu I have seen how some sugar on a stick images shipped with lots of activities as favorite, and that made the ring hard to use
10:39 but if there aren't many activities, the ring works quite well
10:39 eben With the ultimate goal to be to have 2 views (just like all zoom levels will have!), where both views show *all*activities, and one of those views includes text up front.
10:39 tomeu text up front?
10:40 cms garycmartin: yes, to tomeu's point--the ring looks great when there are a ltd number of activities represented
10:40 eben tomeu: Sure, but a) we don't think that's common, and b) we think that favorites are more trouble than they're worth to people.  Added complexity.
10:40 cms but when you exceed a certain number, it tends to become unmanageable
10:40 tomeu looks great, and is also easy to click on the wanted activity
10:40 eben text up front: show text without need for a palette
10:40 tomeu eben: may be, yeah
10:41 garycmartin eben: so how will a teacher/parent customise the view - just start deleting stuff??
10:41 cms the proposal is to essentially remove the favorites altogether--
10:41 tomeu eben, cms: btw, which observations have you made?
10:41 cms --and have a single view for all activities
10:41 eben garycmartin: or organizing stuff. ;)
10:42 cms garycmartin: the model could be much simpler than it currently is
10:42 meaning a single view for all activities
10:42 now, maybe we need to think more about what that single view could look like,
10:42 garycmartin eben: Do what Apple did with their stacks. Nice ring view if under N items, then auto switch to a grid (please not raandom) once exceeded.
10:42 cms but we think that the freeform view satisfies the need for organizing activities in a single space
10:43 eben garycmartin: That type of solution honestly doesn't seem valid to me. (even in Apple's case)
10:43 tomeu my personal, user experience is that freeform views don't work well
10:43 cms tomeu: i'm not sure--
10:44 tomeu maybe I should post a screenshot of my desktop for you to see
10:44 eben I feel like the stack was just eye-candy, and it didn't scale, so they resorted to a grid view for large quantities.
10:44 cms i was reading an article recently on interaction design
10:44 (eben, i think you had bookmarked it)
10:44 on essentially "unnecessary" affordances
10:44 tomeu maybe we are facing two very different user groups? maybe we need to support two very different interaction models?
10:45 cms the freeform view gives you the ability to organize activities spatially, which may not have a clear and immediate purpose (other than making small clusters/groupings),
10:45 but the sheer ability to move objects around the space and personalize it in that way is satisfying on its own
10:46 eben cms: Also, we want search in Home to work well....right now its disabled.
10:46 tomeu I don't know why, but I feel very annoying having to move the icons around in my dekstop
10:46 so much that I don't do it
10:46 eben A funny thing about it before was that not all of the activities were in the view...
10:46 so, do you pull them into the view?  or not search on them?
10:46 cms mean to say, there are interactions that functionally may not be necessary, but are satisfying to people
10:46 garycmartin cms: so can we at least keep a 'snap to ring' 'snap to spiral' if we want?
10:46 cms tomeu: *some* people ;)
10:46 eben Now, everything will be available.
10:46 tomeu perhaps if we had a good search facility in home, we would be already supporting an interaction mode closer to me
10:47 eben garycmartin: I think "snap to grid" should be a default, personally.  cms disagrees. :)
10:47 tomeu cms: yeah, I guess that's true
10:47 eben garycmartin: But I don't see a reason that snap-to-snything couldn't continue to be a hack, as it has been...
10:47 cms garycmartin: we should think about how to best implement this--there may be a setting in the preferences that controls snap to grid
10:47 eben: i don't disagree
10:47 eben: actually, you're right i don't think it should be the default, but i *do* think there should be the option
10:48 eben I just think Sugar, up front, should be presenting an extremely simple and consistent model for Home. (and all zoom levels)
10:48 cms eben: i agree.
10:48 simplicity is really key, here
10:49 eben And, let me just put two flavors of this out there, briefly.
10:49 cms and the notion of a personal space that you can customize
10:49 eben As I mentioned, there are kind of three layout options: freeform, grid, and list.
10:49 tomeu I agree as well with that goal
10:49 eben There are a few ways to combine these.
10:49 garycmartin eben: the ring view is like neighbourhood group sharing, grid or random looses that.
10:49 eben 1) freeform (with snap-to-grid option) and list
10:50 2) freeform and grid (*instead* of list)
10:50 garycmartin eben: neighbourhood (graphic) view will have to be limited (gadget/screen space) list view would show all. So that's like home fav's just now...
10:50 cms garycmartin: that was the initial thought, yes. but freeform also has a close resemblence to neighborhood
10:50 eben 3) freeform or grid, and list
10:50 garycmartin: Kind of, that's true.
10:51 Although in Home, there's no implication that the things are just "out of sight"...they're literally sectioned off in a different space.
10:51 cms garycmartin: but ultimately this is to address function not form
10:51 caroline hi
10:51 cms hi caroline
10:51 eben I think this model works well in the other views, since we're still talking about a single plane and items within it, either in view or not.
10:52 But yes, I agree with cms....this is primarily a functional decision (everyone knows that both of us strongly preferred the ring, to begin with)
10:52 But over time, we've come to see that it's not really the best solution in terms of model and interaction.
10:53 It was a miracle, really, that we sat down over lunch not too long ago and both brought up this same point, independently.
10:53 tomeu wonder who has actually used sugar 0.82 with kids and could give feedback about it
10:54 cms eben: of the three options, i find myself leaning towards (1), for simplicity mostly
10:54 tomeu: that is a good point, actually--some feedback here would help us all make a decision
10:54 eben Right, I think I put them in order of probability, actually.
10:54 tomeu caroline: how close are you from giving this kind of feedback?
10:54 cms tomeu: the thing that cause me to begin questioning the ring was looking at people's screenshots of their home views
10:55 caroline Sorry, I'm still lost we are talking about how to display activities in the home view?
10:55 cms the home views i saw were always fully populated with activities, and the ring no longer seemed to work as intended
10:55 tomeu caroline: yup, and secondarily, the other zoom views
10:55 caroline I think we are about a month from being able to have a group of kids use Sugar and us look over thier sholder and ask questions.
10:55 eben I think one of the reasons that the "small number of favorites" failed is explicitly because the model of "activities" is working so well!  So it's a win, there. :)
10:55 cms eben: yes a nice way to view it... ;)
10:56 caroline *my* imagnation of how I would like it to work is day 1 kid gets ring with a few things picked out by the teacher.
10:56 eben They are small and self-contained, and there are lots of them, each good at its own little thing.
10:56 caroline the teacher can via the web add things to all the kids favorites
10:56 cms eben: essentially, that is what is going on. people don't want to have to choose between their favorite activities, they want them all to be displayed
10:56 caroline kids talk to each other and learn how to access and add favorites and add addons.
10:56 eben I even find myself with an overstuffed ring, even though I only have a dozen apps in my OSX Dock
10:56 cms caroline: you raise an interesting point
10:57 caroline: but i wonder if that isn't something else altogether
10:57 i.e., perhaps there is a different home view that teachers can create for their students, a kind of shared collaboration space
10:57 caroline I think there is a big difference in use case between evaluating Sugar and introdcuting ti to a class. And using it a year into your schooling.
10:58 cms, we should be doing some of that in Moodle.
10:58 tomeu yeah, long term feedback would be better, but if we change the UI every release, we won't get it ever :p
10:58 cms tomeu: agreed...
10:58 eben I recently shown Sugar to some new individuals myself (not kids, unfortunately; but actually some folks with a little interaction design background) and they found the favorites idea to be a little awkward..didn't understand it without explanation.
10:58 caroline because remember the idea of "class" is not that stable. There is my reading group, my math group, my afterschool class.
10:59 garycmartin cms: eben: I'm really not feeling the love here. Give'em a grid, it's easier; and if they don't like it, make it random and leave them to spend 20min trying to drag-n-drop, dodging pop-up menus and accidental launches... Yeuch
10:59 caroline With "no ceiling" everything will not be discoverable by everyone without explaination. But our tartget is schools, with kids helpign each other.
10:59 My goal is to reinforce the notion that exploring will get you somehting interesting.
10:59 eben garycmartin: they shouldn't pop up when dragging. ;)
10:59 cms caroline: a while ago, eben and i discussed a bulletin board concept that essentially gave you the flexibility to create these shared spaces, in conjunction with groups
10:59 caroline and that watching other kids will get you something interesting.
10:59 cms, just saw that email haven't followed the link yet.
11:00 eben caroline: Sure, but I don't think it's good to let that be an excuse for having a confusing interface. ;)
11:00 caroline eben agreed
11:00 eben caroline: I agree, though, but I think there are other, better things we can let them explore and learn.
11:00 garycmartin Currentyl in Sugar it's so nice not to have to constantly clean up the desktop like I have to else where.
11:00 eben One of them, hopefully, will be the addition of proper "groups"
11:01 caroline we have a tension between initial very simple views controled by the teacher, and complex rich student controled views of experienced older kids.
11:01 cms garycmartin: well, i think it's still a different model from your typical desktop, due to activities always remaining in view. there's no need to clean up, but it's nice to be able to reposition if you like
11:01 caroline I'm thinking of the 3 year olds I saw not even struggle with windows they just gave up till an adult came over.
11:01 that is exactly what I don't want.
11:01 cms garycmartin: it's more like taking the ring, and spreading it out over the entire screen
11:02 caroline what is the topic on the email with the link to the bulletin boards?
11:02 cms caroline: actually, this was discussed many months ago
11:02 caroline you guys need to change subjects more in these long threads!
11:02 cms i can try to find it--eben, do you know when it was discussed?
11:02 eben I'm not sure bulletin-boards relate to the current discussion, though.
11:03 cms they do
11:03 eben how?
11:03 tomeu long threads are really evil, yeah
11:03 cms in terms of what caroline was mentioning--teacher-created collaboration spaces
11:03 eben Oh oh....sure.  Well, definitely, that's exactly what they are. :)
11:03 tomeu bulletin boards are the solution to all the problems we avoid ;)
11:03 cms it would be good to have the long-term vision in the back of our minds as we set out to redesign home
11:03 eben But they're just not a part of Home :)  But we should find that for her.
11:04 cms yes, i'll see if i can dig it up again
11:04 caroline http://sugarlabs.org/go/Design[…]e/Bulletin_Boards this?
11:04 cms caroline: i think that will address what you were referring to
11:04 eben caroline: Kind of...that's a really old mockup/form
11:05 caroline anyway, we are gettig off topic I think, eben can you restate what you are looking for?
11:05 eben caroline: A way to think about the current bulletin board idea is that it's an activity (which can be shared), which serves like a shared desktop for activities, objects, notes, etc.
11:05 cms eben: thanks, that sums it up nicely
11:06 eben caroline: They can be created around specific topics and serve as a literal "bulletin-board", or more like a project starter kit for a given asignment, etc.
11:06 caroline cool
11:06 eben caroline: We should talk more about that sometime, and get your feedback.  I think you'll like the thoughts, so far.
11:07 caroline ok I don;t want to get you off topic
11:07 eben So, how can we sum up Home, for now?
11:07 Should we give this a week to settle and discuss again next week?
11:08 cms yes, let's have the thought settle for a while, then pick it up again and see how it resonates
11:08 eben Sounds good.
11:08 tomeu eben: I think we should work hard in involving more people in this discussions
11:08 cms tomeu: what is the best way to do that?
11:08 garycmartin tomeu: yes, I noticed no one started the meeting bot to capture all this...
11:08 eben garycmartin: Oh, that's my fault.
11:09 is sorry.
11:09 tomeu cms: that's what I'm trying to discover by appointing contact points in each geog. area where sugar is used
11:09 cms: will keep working on that, then we'll have some people to ask for feedback
11:09 eben tomeu: Yeah, good point.  Having a few people here with outside insight would be useful; they don't have to be directly interested in the design itself.
11:09 tomeu 0.82 is not widely used, though
11:10 eben tomeu: also a good point. :)
11:10 caroline eben you are local to me right? I hope to shortly have a computer lab somewhere and a supply of kids, think about what you'd like to observe.
11:10 cms should we move on to mesh chat? i think that is one of the most compelling new features
11:10 eben OK.  Well, it's been an hour.  Do folks want to wrap up now, then; or take on a few other zoom-level issues?
11:10 caroline: Yeah...I'm in Providence these days.
11:10 tomeu eben: as we don't have nobody paying developers, maybe we need to find a way so that developers that contribute their own time feel that the stuff they do is in connection with the needs of actual users
11:11 I'm happy to move to other issues
11:12 cms tomeu: yes, before we make any major changes we should make sure that we have some validation
11:12 eben The remaining issues in the zoom levels are 1) groups is "broken" 2) list views at all levels 3) neighborhood search with gadget 4) chat
11:12 tomeu btw, not sure I have pasted this link before: http://sugarlabs.org/go/DeploymentTeam/Places
11:12 garycmartin Happy to move on (still reeling from home change suggestion)
11:12 tomeu I think caroline had some ideas about the groups view
11:13 eben Then there are also 5) activity search in Home (related to previous discussion) and 6) addition of groups (finally!)
11:13 tomeu activity groups or contact groups?
11:14 erikos sad to have missed the meeting
11:14 caroline yeah groups is broken
11:14 eben tomeu: groups, as in collections of people (for the purpose of sharing, etc.)
11:14 tomeu erikos: we're just starting :p
11:14 ok
11:14 caroline what is groups supposed to do? Show friends? Show classmates?
11:14 erikos tomeu: ohh
11:14 eben But, we can "fix" the groups view without adding proper groups support.
11:15 Sure, let me try to clarify the goal.
11:15 tomeu erikos: we have been talking one hour, but there's lot of ground to cover
11:15 eben Right now, we have the notion of friends.
11:15 erikos tomeu: absolutely - there is a lot to do for 0.86
11:15 eben We want to add to this the notion of groups....sets of individuals who all agree to join a group...which can then serve as sharing scope.
11:16 (eg. "share this with my [third grade class] group, or my [chess club] group")
11:16 tomeu caroline: were you in the presentation that cms and eben did in the sugarcamp?
11:16 eben The Groups view is supposed to be the space between Home and Neighborhood, where you interact with these people you're closer to....friends...and other group members.
11:17 caroline ok, so once we have integration between Moodle and eJabber we could start to do some more interesting things.
11:17 eben The view itself should work almost identically to the neighborhood view...in fact...it's basically the same, except we "zoom in" a little bit to show people we know, instead of everyone.
11:17 The same rules for showing people clustered around activities, etc. all apply there (should, anyway).
11:18 caroline So once we are connected to Moodle we now know who is online and shares a group with you.
11:18 eben caroline: Yes, there has been some discussion around the idea of linking Sugar groups with Moodle.
11:18 caroline My Moodle classes could include, My class, my grade, my afterschool program, plus I have maybe Sugar frineds who might be in other grades including older and younger sybling.
11:18 eben I'd like them to be possible without Moodle, but maybe that's too hard a challenge.  Not sure yet.
11:19 caroline: Because I'd really like them to be created ad-hoc.  "You four, form a group for the rest of class and work on X"
11:19 caroline I optomistically see that info being available to Sugar in the next few months. Seems quite possible to trasmit.
11:19 yeah, that is a harder problem.
11:19 eben Anyway, at least the notion of what groups should *do* is pretty clear.
11:19 caroline but if we solve the general problem of group view conveys info about groups from Moodle it becomes Moodles problem.
11:20 tomeu the biggest problem with groups is how to make sure that in all laptops in a class, the class group contain the same people
11:20 eben The two big advantages are 1) there will be a filter on the Groups view, so you can look at a particular group at any given moment.
11:20 and 2) You can also share with a group, instead of just the neighborhood
11:21 tomeu: Well, the trick is really in namespace collisions....
11:21 I think group membership isn't very hard....though like anything, it could take time to propagate the membership changes.
11:21 I don't think that's a problem though.
11:22 tomeu well, if a group composition changes without intervention from the user, maybe that user will make an operation on a set of people that aren't what he thinks?
11:22 garycmartin eben: isn't 'group' better as local thing? I make a 'group' object and add 5 of my friends to it. I can now share to that group.
11:23 eben The only other point to make about Groups view, in how it differs from Neighborhood, is non-friends/non-group members who are shown there because they're in an activity which does contain a friend/group member are rendered as outlines.
11:23 garycmartin eben: the group isn't 'publised' for others to auto join (unless I share the 'group' object)
11:24 eben garycmartin: No, we explicitly want this to be a shared notion.  A collaboration.
11:24 garycmartin eben: it is, you create a group, and then if you want share it.
11:25 eben garycmartin: Well, you share activities *with* a group
11:25 cms hi everyone--i'm going to have to leave, but looking forward to continuing this next week
11:25 garycmartin eben: the 'group' object could come from moodle, someone sharing, or yourself.
11:25 eben But what does that mean to share it?
11:25 tomeu cms: ok, we can move some of this discussion to the mailing list
11:25 caroline I agree at least some of the time the group can be a Moodle Group
11:25 garycmartin cms: thanks for you time.
11:26 eben A group is shared, implicitly, with its members.
11:26 caroline I think you share with a Group, you don't share a Group.
11:26 eben caroline: right, that's the idea.
11:26 cms thanks--see you later
11:26 eben A group isn't an "object"....it's a collection of individuals who agree to share things amongst themselves.
11:26 garycmartin eben: if a group is shared implicitley, then there's a whole bunch of network chatter and sync going on, invites appearing and other such distractions.
11:27 eben garycmartin: nah, not really.
11:27 I mean, it would work something like this...
11:27 caroline so the conclusion I am coming to is Group view is broken cause the connection to Moodle is fundmentally still broken.
11:27 eben I cdecide to make a group, and pick the people I want to join.  Yes, there is some chatter, as each would get an invite to join the group, and either accept or decline.
11:28 tomeu caroline: but don't we want groups to work even without moodle?
11:28 eben But that chatter is limited to the members, and once and done.
11:28 caroline tomeu, for me. No not really.
11:28 eben Then, anytime someone in the group shares an activity with the group, each group member gets an invitation to join.
11:28 caroline but I know that I am more into the server then average person.
11:28 eben But again, only group members get that, so it's not lots of broadcast.
11:28 tomeu oh, ok
11:29 eben tomeu: yes, it's a goal of mine to have this work without a server....but that's a technical discussion to be had.  Maybe we should start with server, and then later grow the offline support?
11:30 caroline I need to go eat sme breakfast back in a bit.
11:30 eben I need to go, myself, actually.
11:30 tomeu eben: yeah, that's a possibility
11:31 eben: ok, how we move forward with 0.86? perhaps you can email a link to the log with some minutes to the ml?
11:31 eben Perhaps we should come back to this anyway, since adding "groups" is not for next release....but making "Groups view" work naturally, so it's ready for future "groups" support is.
11:31 tomeu that may get more people interested
11:31 eben tomeu: You mean copy/paste the log somewhere?
11:33 Next time I'll remember to use the bot...
11:33 garycmartin eben: Currently Sugar can share with 1 buddy, or share with all buddy, the bit it's really missing is, share with bob & sue (or N other named buddies). Share with N users seems the feture to fill (if you give N a name it's a nice group).
11:33 tomeu eben: to the wiki, yeah, like we do in the dev team meeting: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Meetings#Meetings
11:33 eben garycmartin: right!  But the idea here is that all groups are named, and that Bob and Sue would need to agree to be members of that group.
11:34 tomeu: But you usually link to the logs which are kept by the bot.
11:34 I guess copy/paste directly into the wiki could also work...
11:34 A little ugly, probably.
11:34 tomeu eben: before we had the bot, we pasted to the wiki or linked to a file somewhere else
11:34 eben ok
11:34 tomeu a bit ugly, but well
11:35 garycmartin tomeu: a bit ugly, sounds like the new perposed home view ;-b
11:36 eben garycmartin: I'll make sure you get a grid! ;)
11:36 (I don't like freeform much myself...)
11:36 garycmartin eben: thanks eben, and a ring shaped grid please...
11:37 eben garycmartin: I'll leave that to the hackers. :)
11:37 What I'll try to do is make the layout system easily hackable...
11:37 garycmartin eben: with the identity icon centre.
11:37 eben garycmartin: yes
11:37 That will stay as is.
11:38 garycmartin eben: Curious to see how a snap grid layout will work around a centre icon like that.
11:39 tomeu wonder who will actually implement all this ;)
11:39 eben garycmartin: I expect it to work fine, if the XO takes up a multiple of the grid cell size.
11:39 garycmartin tomeu: I have a few bugs I'd like you to help me add if this ever makes it 'in' ;-)
11:40 tomeu garycmartin: sure, I love adding bugs!
11:41 garycmartin eben: how would the grid fill, left to right, right down, etc, etc. larger icons when you only have 10-20 or so activities, smaller when you have more??
11:42 eben garycmartin: Not yet determined.  We we're thinking that it might be an extension of freeform, where placement is random but constrained to the grid.
11:43 scanline order is also a possibility, but not particularly exciting....a square spiral would also work....
11:43 Logs: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Design[…]Meetings/09.03.01
11:43 Oh dear.  Yes, that is ugly.
11:44 garycmartin eben: hmmm, I'll wait for a mockup I think, devel in the detail and all that.
11:45 eben OK, later all!  Thanks for entertaining our ideas.  We'll talk more next week, and try to get some plans in place.
11:45 In the meantime, good luck finishing up 0.84!
11:46 garycmartin eben: thanks eben, interesting chat.
11:47 thinks it's still early but needs a large drink...
11:48 tomeu I was thinking about that, but think I'm going to fix some bugs first
11:48 garycmartin tomeu: good point. I should hit some Labyrinth todos also.
11:48 tomeu garycmartin: when you come for the 0.84 release party, will be happy to show you the best beer in prague ;)
11:49 garycmartin tomeu: :-D
11:49 tomeu: will be a happy day :-)
11:49 tomeu: catch you later...
15:33 mtd sdziallas: ping
15:33 sdziallas mtd: pong!
15:33 mtd sdziallas: hi!  which would you rather people play with: soas-2 or fedora-xo?  They still seem different enough to me...
15:34 sdziallas mtd: hey :) well... really depends. if you'd ask cjb, he'd probably refer you to fedora-xo. concerning soas-2, I can tell you that we'll be publishing a new snapshot, if not even a release quite soonish, since 0.84 is pretty close now.
15:35 mtd is building both from your ks files
15:36 so I won't worry about waiting for an image :)
15:36 sdziallas mtd: well, the one helps more getting Fedora to run on the XO, while the other one helps us directly to promote Sugar with SoaS.
15:36 mtd: ah okay, that's cool :)
15:36 mtd is depressed that building an image takes about as long as downloading it :)
15:36 sdziallas: I guess I should splay with soas on my XO then
15:37 sdziallas mtd: I won't prevent you from doing so, yeah...
15:37 mtd prefers to promote Sugar on his XO so he can use it to program activities, hack sugar, and ssh to his mail server.
15:37 sdziallas: heh
15:37 sdziallas mtd: I figured that having a cache around with the latest packages increases the image creation speed a bit, but still, you're right...
15:37 mtd sdziallas: s/increases/decreases/?
15:38 sdziallas: ah sorry
15:38 sdziallas: yeah I find that as well :)
15:38 sdziallas mtd: :)
15:38 mtd sdziallas: takes about 15 minutes to build an image and about the same to download 500MB
15:38 sdziallas: is the sl.org git repo for soas up-to-date?
15:38 sdziallas mtd: heh, for me it takes partly hours to get stuff...
15:39 mtd sdziallas: ouch!
15:39 sdziallas mtd: mostly, yeah.
15:39 (I don't have any significant missing changes in mind, right now)
15:39 mtd sdziallas: cool, thx
15:39 sdziallas :)
15:42 mtd sdziallas: is there a reason besides startup speed/memory that you have disabled sshd on boot?
15:42 cjb mtd: the standard Fedora install does that, doesn't it?
15:42 sdziallas mtd: this has been done in one of the earliest builds, but I don't recall any other reason
15:42 m_stone mtd, sdziallas: (heya!)
15:43 sdziallas waves to m_stone & cjb ;)
15:43 mtd m_stone: hi hi
15:43 sdziallas cjb, mtd: yep, it does: http://git.fedoraproject.org/g[…]dora-live-base.ks
15:43 mtd cjb: dunno, sorry, didn't realize it was standard
15:43 sdziallas: ah, thanks
15:43 finds that odd
15:43 sdziallas mtd: well, I don't see any other reason for that, either. sooo...
15:44 mh!
15:44 mtd sdziallas:  was just asking.  I'll futz with enabling it in my .ks build once I get something that boots in less than a few minutes :)
15:45 sdziallas mtd: okay, sounds like a good plan! ;)
15:58 mtd realises what channel this is, grumbles at himself.
11:01 SeanDaly Hi, Sean here, anybody yet?
11:01 caroline I am
11:02 SeanDaly Hi Caroline!
11:02 dfarning is this marketing?
11:02 caroline hi DAve, are you paying $5 a hour?
11:02 SeanDaly dfarning: Sure is but haven't started yet, about to
11:02 dfarning sounds good
11:03 SeanDaly Hi jt4sugar!
11:03 jt4sugar hI sEAN
11:04 dfarning No, but the food is free.
11:04 SeanDaly Shall I start?
11:04 dfarning ahh.  No, we have the free logon
11:04 tomeu hi all!
11:04 SeanDaly Hi Tomeu!
11:04 #start-meeting
11:05 Lots of topics today but don't let me do all the talking :D
11:06 Why don't we start with the phone number problem
11:06 Reminder, the idea is for Sugar Labs to have a journalist-facing phone number
11:06 dfarning Is astrick a possiable solution?
11:06 SeanDaly useful for those times (like hopefully next week) when there is "news"
11:07 tomeu geeks love to propose asterisk, but I don't see that working very often
11:07 SeanDaly I had pinged Bernie about the asterix possibility but no reply :-(
11:07 caroline asterix seems like a very big hammer for this job
11:08 we have used it for a client project and it took quite a bit of work to set up by an expert
11:08 SeanDaly So I found this: #LINK: http://www.efls.com/voicemail.html
11:08 Greetings mchua & homunq
11:08 mchua Hey, sorry I'm late.
11:09 SeanDaly They propose a voicemail box with local Boston number and e-mail forwarding of voicemail for 10 USD per month
11:09 homunq doesn't know what meeting this is...?
11:09 :/
11:09 SeanDaly homunq: "Marketing"
11:09 homunq ok
11:09 dfarning That looks reasonable.
11:10 caroline Sean what does it give us for $10 that GrandCentral doesn't give us for free?
11:10 SeanDaly They offer other US cities local numbers
11:10 tomeu maybe the people that are going to answer the phone get to decide by themselves?
11:10 SeanDaly Caroline: GrandCentral piggybacks on an existing phone number
11:10 caroline does it ring your number?
11:11 hmm, I didn't think so I thought it gave me a new number, and a 617 number.
11:11 SeanDaly caroline: no, "Follow Me" is more like $49 per month + charges
11:11 is 617 Boston I guess?
11:11 caroline yes
11:11 will this one ring your phone in Europe?
11:11 SeanDaly No, $10/month is a voicemal box only
11:12 dfarning I have a cell phone which I only use for SL,  we can send calls to it for now.
11:12 caroline huh, seems like GC gives us voicemail +email for free
11:12 SeanDaly GC USA only :-(
11:13 dfarning: do you mean we could put that number on press releases?
11:13 caroline only people from teh US can call into a GC nuber?
11:13 really?
11:13 SeanDaly caroline: any number can call the US number linked to GC, but GC will only forward to a US number
11:13 caroline want to try to call mine? I'm pretty sure I've had calls from teh UK and France
11:14 dfarning SeanDaly, Yes, we can start with that number and move it to other service as we grow.
11:14 caroline but if the $10 a month one won't forward to a non US phone then how is it better?
11:14 SeanDaly caroline: better than nothing :-)
11:15 caroline can't we get teh same thing by getting a free GC number and having it not forward?
11:15 SeanDaly Remember, a phone number on a press release may be noted by a journalist and called back months later...
11:15 caroline hmm am I the only one confused, cause if everyone else gets it i'll shut up :)
11:15 SeanDaly Perhaps I don't understand completely how GC works, my understanding is that you come to it with a number already
11:15 caroline no you don't
11:16 it will give you a number
11:16 seems to be out of 617 numbers right now though. but how important is that?
11:16 http://www.grandcentral.com/home/reserve
11:16 SeanDaly caroline: I'm sure though that it won't forward outside the US, they list that as part of their "expansion plans"
11:17 caroline yes they don't forward outside the US
11:17 SeanDaly caroline: that link bounces me to a "you are not in USA, you don't exist" page
11:17 caroline and if we can pay $10 a month to forward outside the US thats great
11:17 mchua notes that it's almost 1/3 of the way into meeting time
11:17 caroline opps :)
11:17 ok lets me and Sean take tis offline
11:17 walterbender +1
11:17 SeanDaly Well, this is hot & we need a solution
11:18 OK for offline
11:18 caroline Sean maybe you can call my GC number after and we'll work it out.
11:18 SeanDaly Next: marketing talikg points
11:18 talikg -> talking
11:18 So... start with... what are the "three" key great new things about Sugar?
11:18 jt4sugar SeanDaly:  check these out later-http://www.voicestick.com/  http://www.uwtcallback.com/call_my_us_number.html
11:19 SeanDaly jt4sugar: thanks will do
11:19 walterbender SeanDaly: 3 new things baout 0.84?
11:19 dfarning action# caroline and SeanDaly resolve phone issue by next meeting
11:20 tomeu maybe the biggest is that Sugar runs in lots more places than before?
11:20 mchua dfarning: SeanDaly has to say the #action for meetbot to pick it up
11:20 SeanDaly dfarning: sooner than that I hope... by 0.84 media blitz date
11:20 tomeu: good suggestion!
11:20 mchua tomeu, you and the other developers would know better than most of us, I think (too bad erikos isn't around)
11:21 Is there a list of shiny new features somewhere around the development section of the wiki?
11:21 SeanDaly #action resolve phone issue with Caroline & Walter
11:21 walterbender and the Journal interface is much simpler, cleaner
11:21 mchua or major closed bugs in trac?
11:21 dfarning Are we ready to promote activities?  It will be running in a few days
11:21 tomeu well, the points we choose depend on the audience
11:21 so it's not a matter of just developers
11:21 walterbender and lots of new activity features
11:21 erikos hello
11:21 tomeu maybe TAP?
11:21 walterbender erikos: too bad you are not around :)
11:21 mchua erikos! hey. SeanDaly was just asking what the 3 biggest new features in 0.84 are that we should be announcing.
11:21 SeanDaly mchua: closing bugs, while laudable, is I'm afraid rarely if ever a marketing priority :-)
11:22 walterbender universal view source?
11:22 SeanDaly because the idea is, bugs are "supposed" to be fixed
11:22 erikos walterbender, hehe
11:22 mchua, walterbender view source is one
11:22 SeanDaly I like improved Journal + universal view source, because these are strong points exclusive to Sugar
11:22 erikos resume by default another one
11:23 walterbender the resume by default doesn't sound sexy, but it is a major usability enhancement
11:23 erikos and journal yes!
11:23 SeanDaly erikos: Yes that's a good one
11:23 dfarning runs on more platforms, runs more activities easer to use
11:23 tomeu the journal and resume by default could be conflated in one?
11:23 walterbender we could add the portfolio to the mix as well
11:23 mchua SeanDaly: aye, but some bugs (or enhancements) are major user-facing features, so that's another place to find 'em.
11:23 erikos tomeu, yup - good point
11:23 mchua (though this seems to be way more efficient.:)
11:24 SeanDaly Resume by default is a big one, because many Mac users reboot once a month and suspend/resume the rest of the time while on Windows it's iffy
11:24 walterbender maybe highlight things like infoslicer as a tool for teachers and content creators?
11:24 tomeu mchua: but perhaps saying we fixed major deficiencies is like saying "we suck less", which may be less important for marketing purposes
11:24 mchua SeanDaly, I think he meant Activities resume by default, not suspend/resume
11:24 SeanDaly (referring to typical teacher & parent experience of resume)
11:24 mchua tomeu: point taken... yeah.
11:24 SeanDaly mchua: Ahhh yes without cluttering up the Journal oops
11:24 tomeu SeanDaly: oh, it's not resuming the machine
11:25 right ;)
11:25 erikos yup - i was not really clear :/
11:25 walterbender nor I
11:25 mchua SeanDaly, got enough stuff for your list? ;)
11:25 walterbender addons is a big deal too
11:25 SeanDaly erikos: Well, that's we're here for - to make a clear case for trying "new improved" Sugar ;-)
11:25 erikos SeanDaly, i can update you with a url that should have all the new features listed soon
11:25 SeanDaly erikos: Many thanks
11:25 mchua oh sweet, release notes!
11:25 caroline should addons be a separate press release?
11:26 erikos mchua, yeah
11:26 mchua +1 addsons as separate
11:26 cjb mchua: fun photo of you on the olpcnews front page :)
11:26 SeanDaly caroline: when I say "press release" I mean the "main" press + educators release... not very technical
11:26 jt4sugar Activities-List a few- Infoslicer-teachers, etoys-kids, Portfolio/Journal-helps teachers and students and parents
11:27 caroline Sean, agreed but do we want to have more of them or less of them?
11:27 we certainly coudl do 2
11:27 SeanDaly jt4sugar: Yes - I want to do star marketing on Activities
11:27 caroline: more of what?
11:27 erikos the development release notes do contain good information as well already http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]/Roadmap#Schedule
11:27 each has a link in the schedule
11:28 SeanDaly Now, I'm sorry I'm not up to speed but what is Portfolio?
11:28 walterbender addons is not very well populated yet... we should hold off on that press release until we migrate more activities into it.
11:28 portfolio is a way to make portfolio presentations from Journal entries... an assessment ool
11:28 ^ool^tool
11:29 tomeu also, activities.sl.o may need a new look before advertising widely
11:29 caroline Portfolio is goign to be the most interesting of the 3 things to eductors
11:29 SeanDaly walterbender: interesting, amplifies the usefulness of the Journal
11:29 caroline yeah, I agree activities.so isn't ready to publicize yet.
11:30 SeanDaly The static site will I think do an excellent job of introducing Sugar
11:30 jt4sugar If we can make release Kid/Teacher Centric I think it will be big Win!
11:30 SeanDaly jt4sugar: that's why I compiled the 75+ education press/portal/journals links ;-)
11:31 erikos tomeu, we had a designer for this if i remember correctly
11:31 SeanDaly OK i propose to start a marketing list thread so we can hit-parade the marketing taliking points in the next day or so, OK?
11:32 tomeu erikos: yeah, but takes time to make stuff actually happen
11:32 erikos tomeu, sure
11:32 SeanDaly #action: marketing list thread to hit-parade marketing talking points for press release
11:32 erikos SeanDaly, sounds good
11:33 SeanDaly I'd like to jump to item 4 in the agenda #link: http://sugarlabs.org/go/MarketingTeam/Meetings
11:33 Is it possible today to pick a day for the media launch? Or, alternatively how can we pick that day/time?
11:33 walterbender Ides of March?
11:34 we can hold a toga party for the release party :)
11:34 SeanDaly walterbender: "beware the Ides of March"...
11:35 Seriously, March 15th? will give us loads of time I thought would be sooner
11:35 walterbender we could do sooner... what day of the week is most likely to get us coverage... a slow news day
11:35 SeanDaly By tradition, slow news day is Monday morning
11:36 walterbender so next MOnday morning?
11:36 SeanDaly But, our news is a tad less high-priority for journalists than the economy, the US president, etc so any day but Friday would be all right I think
11:37 mchua +1 ides of march, actually - that's around the time we'll be deploying Sugar here in Boston, and coinciding press releases might be handy.
11:37 SeanDaly Monday morning the 16th?
11:37 walterbender education should be at the heart of every solution to every pre...oblem we fac
11:38 I think we should issue a challenge to educate in our press release...
11:38 SeanDaly mchua: do these deployments involve being in school?
11:38 walterbender we are the solution...
11:38 jt4sugar Everyone will forget us the next day on St Pattys. might wait till they all sober up
11:38 mchua SeanDaly: yeah, but it's a small first-world (Boston) deployment, so it might not matter as much. and i don't have an absolute "Sugar will be here on X date" date for that.
11:39 SeanDaly walterbender: actually I really like talking about "passionate Sugar volunteers on a mission to educate"
11:39 walterbender SeanDaly: yes.
11:39 SeanDaly jt4sugar: I'll bring me bit o' the ol' irish luck in ;-)
11:40 Are we OK for March 16th?
11:40 walterbender sounds like a plab
11:40 tomeu ok
11:40 walterbender ^plab^plan
11:40 SeanDaly I like that date because we will have time to translate the PR too
11:40 mchua walterbender, that reminds me - that would be a good date to coincide the "1-year vision roadmap for SL" post with.
11:41 SeanDaly #action: press release date March 16th
11:41 tomeu for March 16th, I hope we have a good soas for people to try
11:41 walterbender mchua, almost wrote it for this week, but decided the release too precedence.
11:42 mchua yay!
11:42 SeanDaly OK, now... what time on the 16th? I propose the morning EST, say 9:00 AM?
11:42 walterbender gives you Europeans a chance to sleep in :)
11:43 SeanDaly Of course, it's possible no journalists will care or telephone, but I'd rather we (mostly) be all awake
11:43 OK let's discuss the PR draft process
11:44 i take exception to drafting it online in a web-facing list... any alert journalist will just pick up a draft and link to it & blog it.
11:44 walterbender google docs?
11:44 SeanDaly I mean, it would be great to have the exposure, but it's better if we can plan for it.
11:45 walterbender: +1
11:45 caroline +1
11:45 walterbender or Write in Sugar?
11:45 SeanDaly I guess we can darft a shared document in the start.sugarlabs.org?
11:46 walterbender: wow... if we manage to dogfood it we will have to brag about that ;-)
11:46 walterbender SeanDaly: maybe the two of us can get started that way atleast...
11:47 SeanDaly walterbender: Google Docs, or Write?
11:47 walterbender Write...
11:47 then we can legitimately say we aate the dogfood!!
11:47 tomeu ok, don't forget to enter tickets when you find bugs ;)
11:48 SeanDaly OK only thing is I only have XO connectivity at home with ethernet adapter
11:48 tomeu SeanDaly: cannot use soas is any other computer?
11:49 SeanDaly tomeu: have downloaded ISO a couple of times, but have not succeeded yet in flashing USB stick :-(
11:49 tomeu SeanDaly: that's a big problem
11:49 SeanDaly: we need to understand why people are having problems with that
11:49 SeanDaly: maybe we can talk in #sugar?
11:50 SeanDaly tomeu: because house full of aging Macs none of which can run SoaS... I have a fairly recent PC I built a couple of years ago with a wrecked Win install on it, might install a new hard drive & work with a GNU/Linux distrib
11:50 tomeu ok
11:50 SeanDaly tomeu: I'll mail you offline & "expose" my problem
11:51 tomeu hopefully not a lot of people will be like you ;)
11:51 SeanDaly tomeu: I'm afraid it might be worse: I know the command line & have worked with computers for 20 years :-(
11:51 caroline we should find a way to create sticks on the mac
11:52 SeanDaly caroline: in fact it's easier on recent (Intel) Macs, but I don't have one & no plans
11:52 I have an EeePC though
11:52 tomeu sebastian is our man here, he's in contact with the people that try to solve the same issue for plain fedora
11:52 SeanDaly: soas runs well on an eeepc here
11:52 SeanDaly And was thinking of obtaining a classmate or small Dell or HP
11:53 mchua notes we have 5 minutes left in scheduled meeting time
11:53 tomeu but as mchua would say, we are losing focus
11:53 damn, she beat me
11:53 SeanDaly tomeu: offlist you'll tell me how to use EeePC
11:53 tomeu ok
11:53 mchua grins
11:53 SeanDaly OK on the brochure: I'll wait until static site is up
11:54 I want to take this opportunity to thank Christian and everyone who worked on the site I really like it now
11:54 walterbender thins about how to get Sean an OLPC XO
11:54 tomeu yeah, I'm quite happy as well
11:54 SeanDaly Let's talk SoaS in the last few minutes OK?
11:54 walterbender: I have two XOs ;-)
11:55 G1G1x2
11:55 SoaS: I haven't ordered them yet
11:55 It seems most of them are made in Taiwan & Shenzen
11:56 I found a company that can do nice 1 Gb sticks with logo... from Hong Kong including shipping to US, but *not* customs
11:56 At $6.40 per stick
11:56 caroline good price
11:57 tomeu cool
11:57 caroline how is the brochure for me to go begging wtih going?
11:57 tomeu I have 20
11:57 I want 20
11:57 walterbender SeanDaly: I wonder if someone at OLPC could handle the customs business for us?
11:57 SeanDaly i also found a supplier who does plastic USB sticks as red candy wrappers!
11:57 mchua looks skeptical about banking on OLPC for customs
11:57 SeanDaly walterbender: could we investigate?
11:58 tomeu would be bad if happened the same as with pizzas in the sugarcamp
11:58 SeanDaly caroline: re PDF brochure, I want to do that once the static site is up (next couple of days)
11:58 walterbender seandaly: I will ask them
11:59 SeanDaly Where will the sticks be shipped to?
11:59 caroline great thanks!
11:59 me?
11:59 walterbender tomeu; mchua: I'll ask Robert Fadel, a singularity of effiiency
12:00 SeanDaly caroline: OK.. I know I can count on you to not fling them into the crowd (since they are not cheap)
12:00 tomeu yeah, robert has always delivered
12:00 mchua oh my. yes, robert is amazing.
12:00 caroline yup
12:00 SeanDaly walterbender: please ask them if promotional materials have an exception... I think they do if you list the time & place of a "trade fair"
12:01 Re SoaS preloading: most suppliers claim to do it
12:01 sdziallas is late for the meeting, sorry
12:02 caroline can we yum update?
12:02 SeanDaly But most of them can't preload a bootable GNU/Linux image since they use Windows-specific software
12:02 walterbender SeanDaly: can you email a summary of your questions?
12:02 SeanDaly #action SD will email Walter list of importing questions for SoaS USB sticks
12:03 caroline: ??
12:03 caroline yes?
12:03 SeanDaly what is a yum update?
12:03 caroline its a one step update of the whole system
12:03 sdziallas caroline: yum update on soas?
12:03 caroline is that the right terminonogy?
12:04 basically if we preload it woudl be good  to be able to update if we need to.
12:04 SeanDaly i'm afraid I have no advice to offer about the best way to individually flash sticks
12:04 tomeu caroline: yum update would update a running system to newer versions of packages
12:05 I guess flashing is their business, but it's true that not too many people might be asking for bootable linux images
12:05 mchua notes that we're 6 minutes over meeting time ;)
12:05 SeanDaly I have researched a shell-script solution using dd which would allow my PPC Macs to write the ISO out to a USB stick
12:05 caroline I think the first batch we'll have to get volunteers to help.
12:05 SeanDaly OK one more item agenda: Sugar STories!
12:05 mchua wonders whether she could replace herself with a meetbot code addition that periodically called out how much time we had left.
12:05 caroline Mel wanted free admission to the FLOSS conference ;)
12:06 mchua Stories! SeanDaly, I can get you a profile on the CFS deployment folks by press release date for sure.
12:06 (with some "and a bunch of high schoolers from IL came to help us out" thrown in on the side because the IMSA kids are awesome.)
12:06 SeanDaly mchua: sounds great!
12:07 erikos FLOSS - reminds /me of FLOSS Manuals (i guess we need to coordinate an update here as well)
12:07 SeanDaly mchua: remind me what CFS is...?
12:07 mchua SeanDaly: the grassroots deployment in boston, cambridge friends school
12:07 SeanDaly mchua: gotcha
12:07 mchua another profile might be the SoaS team - caroline, sdziallas, etc
12:07 SeanDaly mchua: good ide, because our next "big" press release will be SoaS I guess
12:08 s/ide/idea
12:08 mchua oh, okay. I'll wait for that, then.
12:08 SeanDaly mchua; no, don't wait - we are mentioning SoaS already, as "under active development"
12:08 walterbender maybe dsd? insight into the Paraguay deployment?
12:09 tomeu hmm, I saw the stories thing as something more individual, so that current lurkers could get an idea of the process through which proven contributors found their way
12:09 SeanDaly walterbender: nice idea since brings in the intternational aspect
12:09 walterbender maybe Christian and Eben for a designer's perspective?
12:09 caroline I like the team story idea
12:09 mchua is there an educator we can profile?
12:09 SeanDaly walterbender: +1
12:09 mchua Ok, what I'll do is start a queue of interviews on the wiki, shout it out to the marketing list, and people can push stuff onto the queue
12:09 tomeu well, christian and eben got involved into sugar in a way that casual contributors won't get
12:10 SeanDaly mchua, it would be great if you could work on Sugar Stories
12:10 mchua I'll work through the queue as far as I can before press release date, and other people can also help work through the queue
12:10 walterbender Bill Kerr would be great or Tony Forster?
12:10 tomeu not saying it's not interesting, just that it won't probably inspire more people to actually do stuff
12:10 jt4sugar mchua: you should interview Evangeline
12:10 SeanDaly Sugar Stories will help us attract new volunteers
12:10 walterbender How about Dongyun Lee?
12:10 and Mike Lee?
12:10 SeanDaly tomeu: you don't think so?
12:11 tomeu SeanDaly: what I mean is that there are several dozens of people that are already interested in sugar, they lurk in #sugar and the mailing lists, but they haven't found yet the way to contribute
12:11 SeanDaly: a very small part of these people managed at some point to overcome that barrier and became successful contributors
12:11 jt4sugar Should ask community members how and why they got involved-the answers will speak for themselves
12:11 tomeu my original idea was to replicate that movement from lurker to doer
12:11 SeanDaly jt4sugar is right
12:12 tomeu it may be two very different things: individual interviews to "proven contributors" and success stories
12:12 SeanDaly tomeu: and I was in that category too... an IAEP list subscriber woondering how to contribute
12:12 jt4sugar And the answers should include who helped them along
12:12 tomeu SeanDaly: right, you are a good candidate to be interviewed in that way
12:12 SeanDaly tomeu: tee hee I'll interview meself
12:13 tomeu I also don't know how caroline and dfarning decided one day to actually do stuff
12:13 but they have done really good stuff
12:13 SeanDaly It's true that the mystique & jargon around coding can be daunting
12:13 tomeu if we can explain how this varied array of people found their way to contribute, we increase the chances that this process happens inside more people
12:14 walterbender there are lots of folks out there among the developer ranks as well...
12:14 and in deployment circles...
12:14 SeanDaly there is a common thread... we want kids to have a better education
12:14 tomeu in #sugar there's typically 80 people, but nobody there explains how they decided to submit their first patch
12:14 SeanDaly back to my agenda idea, perhaps each of us can write up a few phrases: "Why I contribute"?
12:15 jt4sugar For each team we should have a "why I got involved page" "What led me here"
12:15 mchua add more suggestions for interviews to the queue at http://sugarlabs.org/go/Market[…]eam/Sugar_stories, but note that I *can't* get to all these groups in <2wks
12:15 tomeu I was thinking rather about "how did I got started into doing stuff"
12:15 SeanDaly tomeu: well, it's true that it's a personal choice
12:16 mchua: 3 to 5 stories would be grand enough
12:16 tomeu but that's because I'm thinking about how to further involve people that are already in the sugarlabs community, but still as observers
12:16 mchua I might struggle to hit that number, but it's a good ambitious target. I'll see what I can do.
12:16 tomeu it's true that growing the community is also important
12:16 mchua Can I suggest a community growth focus for the-release-after-this-next-one? (0.88?)
12:17 caroline afk
12:17 SeanDaly tomeu has a point... it's probably tha case that most active contributors started out as lurkers
12:17 tomeu that's one year ;)
12:17 mchua tomeu: 6 months.
12:17 we need more things for new people to do, more mentors to help them, and so on, before we go "floodgates! open!"
12:17 tomeu mchua: true, we'll start working on 0.88 in 6 months
12:18 mchua my focus for the 0.86 release is to help teams build community participation infrastructures, now that we have some good solid teams
12:18 SeanDaly mchua: actually what I'd like to see is teacher particpants sharing how they use Sugar in the classroom... cf the feedback topic of 2 wks ago
12:18 mchua SeanDaly, if someone can get me in touch with teacher participants willing to talk for an hour or two, I'll gladly interview 'em and write up nice profiles.
12:18 SeanDaly we need volunteers to manage volunteers
12:19 mchua: that's where local Labs can come in
12:19 But this week I wanted to talk priority about the PR which is why I left that off ;-)
12:19 tomeu mchua: do we already know that a mentor plus a given project is the best way for people to get started? I think it's not the case that sustained contributors had those conditions before starting to contribute
12:19 mchua nope, but that's a good thing to find out.
12:20 walterbender mchua: there is a teacher from Uruguay who has been active lately:
12:20 jt4sugar mchua: best shot is to talk to SJ and have him put you in touch with Birmingham deployment
12:20 mchua walterbender: awesome! can you pop them on the http://sugarlabs.org/go/Market[…]eam/Sugar_stories list?
12:20 SeanDaly i think part of what motivates people to contribute is the feeling that their contribution will be valuable, will "make a difference"
12:20 walterbender mchua: Oneyda Ortega is starting to get his students to document their work
12:20 tomeu mchua: that's why I would like to read about how people got to do sugar stuff
12:20 mchua: normally it was by taking an area of responsibility
12:20 walterbender mchua: maybe a good interview subject... in Spanish.
12:21 tomeu a mentor might take a bit of responsibility out from the new volunteer
12:21 thus making the commitment less strong and lasting
12:22 mchua walterbender: send me his contact info offlist and I'll try to find someone who speaks Spanish to do the interview - my es is terrible.
12:22 okeydokey. SeanDaly, anything else?
12:22 SeanDaly I think we've hit the high notes for this time?
12:23 going once, going twice...
12:23 #end-meeting
12:23 mchua SeanDaly: no hyphen
12:23 SeanDaly zut! #endmeeting
12:24 mchua SeanDaly: no zut! ;)
12:24 SeanDaly #endmeeting
12:25 mchua scratches head
12:25 #startmeeting
12:25 hm.
12:25 SeanDaly oh no did I mess up?
12:26 mchua Don't worry about it, just ask someone to copy-paste their logs to the wiki.
12:26 Meetbot seems to be a bit awry.
12:26 (Nothing you did, Sean - looks like a bot problem.)
12:26 dogi, ^^^ - meetbot doesn't seem to be pushing logs to http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/ right now
12:27 SeanDaly actually I think i did hashstart-meeting with a hyphen :-(
12:27 mchua Don't worry about it - now we know for next time. :)
12:27 SeanDaly i tried to log locally but messed that up tpp :-(
12:28 tpp -> too
12:28 mchua caroline or someone with logs, can you post to wiki (or forward to me and I'll do it)?
12:28 and thanks for driving this forward, SeanDaly! You've got a tough job especially because most of us are new to this marketing thing.
12:28 so it's great to be able to watch and listen to you and learn.
12:28 SeanDaly I do my best but the real test will be if we manage to get any atttention at all on the 16th ;-)
12:28 mchua (my marketing education prior to this consisted of reading one chapter in "the 10 day mba" for a required class.)
12:29 I'm bracing myself for the flood of press. :) It's going to be fantastic.
12:29 SeanDaly there might not be a flood... or even a trickle... it can happen that we work hard and nothing happens
12:30 Press coverage is extremely random as any marketing/PR person can tell you
12:31 mchua Even if it's a trickle, it gives us a good base of materials to work with for ongoing marketing/outreach.
12:32 SeanDaly one of the "secrets" to getting press coverage is if an influential journalist covers the subject... there is a "lemming effect"
12:33 the Holy Grail is a wire service: the slightest mention in AP, Reuters, Bloomberg, AFP, even specialized like IDG means dozens of articles
12:34 OK mchua signing off now many many thanks
12:36 tomeu mchua: still looking for the logs?
12:36 mchua tomeu: yes, please!
12:39 tomeu: got it, thanks!
12:39 tomeu welcome!
06:30 field_marshal is the meeting for discussing gsoc  on??
06:34 tomeu field_marshal: hi, nope
06:35 field_marshal tomeu: when would it start?
06:37 tomeu field_marshal: 17:00 UTC
06:42 field_marshal tomeu i have an idea for gsoc. Where can i submit it?
06:43 i would like to work on it if given an opportunity this GSOC.
06:43 tomeu field_marshal: here: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Team/ProjectIdeas
06:50 field_marshal tomeu if i paste my idea there isnt it possible that someone could copy my idea?
06:51 tomeu field_marshal: well, what is evaluated aren't the ideas, but the quality of the proposal
06:51 having good ideas isn't what usually makes for a good gsoc
06:51 field_marshal tomeu ok
06:51 :)
08:16 annette hello
09:39 walterbender annette: are you looking for a meeting?
10:21 mchua dirakx: argh! I'm sorry, Rafael - I put down the wrong time for deployment team meeting today. are there logs? I can send notes to the list instead...
10:22 tomeu mchua: didn't saw a meeting yet
10:22 today, I mean
10:23 mchua tomeu: it turns out it was supposed to be 1.5 hours ago instead of 30 min from now
10:24 tomeu actually, rita joined half an hour ago, so might have thought there was a deployment meeting going on
10:48 dirakx mchua: you can send the logs to the list ..
10:49 tomeu is very confused
10:49 dirakx mchua: but there hasn't been any meeting :(
10:49 mchua dirakx: aww!
10:49 dirakx tomeu: hi :)
10:50 walterbender thought there was a deployment meeting scheduled for 14UTC and a GSoC meeting scheduled for 17 UTC
10:51 mchua there's a GSoC meeting in 10min, walterbender? that's a new one for me, I must have missed the list announcement... in any case I'm here though. :)
10:51 org apps open next monday, so it's good timing
10:52 tomeu yeah, it's much less stressing to be hear all day long instead of trying to track the meeting times :p
10:52 s/hear/here
10:52 walterbender mchua: I think the GSoC meeting is in 70 minutes
10:52 mchua walterbender, dirakx, I was talking with Mike Lee yesterday, they're working on Sugar stuff in Washington DC... we came up with a barrage of questions about various SL group options, let me type them in from my notebook and shoot them here
10:52 walterbender tomeu: +1
10:52 mchua goes to find notebook...somewhere in house...
10:53 dirakx mchua: please do.
10:53 walterbender mchua: I tried to find Mike at MIT all day... :(
11:00 tomeu homunq: you said in that email that the meeting would be in 2 hours
11:01 homunq oops
11:01 1 hour, right?
11:01 tomeu not sure, have heard lots of different times :p
11:01 the first one asked 5 hours ago
11:02 homunq yeah, 1 hour
11:02 1700 utc
11:05 dirakx yes 1 hour.
11:08 mchua walterbender: he thought you were stuck home with the snow!
11:08 found notebook
11:10 walterbender was stuck in the snow on Monday...
11:11 homunq mchua, you are coming to GSoC meeting in 50 minutes, right?
11:11 mchua homunq: Yep, I'll be here.
11:11 homunq (and walterbender...)
11:11 tomeu everybody is here!
11:11 mchua homunq, thanks for calling it - I probably missed the meeting announcement somewhere.
11:11 walterbender homunq: yes.
11:12 dirakx i'll be there also..;)
11:12 mchua homunq, do you want to drive the meeting? I don't have a cohesive agenda since I just found out about this a few minutes ago. ;) (I could invent one, and will swing around and update the SL wiki page, but it sounds like you have more well-formed thoughts in this department at the moment.)
11:12 shenki: ping, GSoC mtg in 45min here
11:13 dirakx wants to see SL suceed  on gsoc. :)
11:13 homunq I can't say I have an extremely cohesive plan, but sure, I can drive.
11:13 dirakx: can you mentor??? :)
11:13 mchua sweet.
11:14 dirakx homunq: thinking on it..
11:14 field_marshal is the discussion for gsoc goin on?
11:14 homunq time is short
11:14 field_marshal: in 45 minutes
11:14 dirakx homunq: truth,
11:14 mchua homunq, we need to clarify the commitment for gsoc mentors for SL so people can know what they're getting into
11:14 homunq though we are chatting
11:14 mchua: hold that thought :)
11:15 mchua walterbender, dirakx, I've got those questions about local labs and groups typed up, want to discuss that here before gsoc?
11:15 dirakx sure..
11:15 mchua clings to thought for dear life!
11:15 walterbender ok
11:16 nteon_ i volunteered myself as a mentor on the SL wiki, mchua/homunq I would certainly like to clarify my commitment when the meeting comes around :)
11:16 mchua walterbender, dirakx, I put the questions we had on http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Sandbox temporarily, when we get answers worked out I'll find a better place to migrate them
11:16 the first is "what's a local lab?"
11:17 what is its purpose, what services does SL provide for local labs, who can/should start one, how do you start one?
11:17 that kind of thing... we realized we were both fuzzy on that, if it was an interest group or a legal entity or whatnot.
11:17 nteon_: Awesome, looking forward to having you!
11:18 nteon_ mchua: thanks, let me know what i can do to help
11:18 dirakx mchua: a local lab is an idependent org or company that agrees with SugarLabs mission and wants to extend it and apply it on an specific region.
11:20 mchua: i think anyone can start one, and for many porpuses it should have a legal background.
11:20 it can start as an interest group like ubuntu's LoCo teams..
11:21 SL ca provide services like wiki, maillists and  mail accounts.
11:22 can.
11:22 all the services that google apps is offering.
11:23 mchua dirakx: ok, so a legal entity is a requirement for a local lab, but it can be an existing org or company? (like if Bob's Computers, Inc. decided they wanted to do a Sugar deployment in Cuba, they'd become a Local Lab, kind of like an "approved corporate partner" of SL?)
11:24 dirakx yes..that's my understanding on it.
11:24 isn't walterbender ?
11:25 mchua trying to put this in the context of groups and companies that already exist... would groups like OLE Nepal, Solutiongrove, and OLPCfriends be good candidates for LLs?
11:25 walterbender yes
11:25 dirakx mchua: yes
11:25 indeed.
11:25 for the initial interaction SL and LL have a MOU.
11:25 mchua okay, but groups like "I'm a professor and my class is working on Sugar Activities this semester" would not be a LL.
11:26 Ahh, okay, I vaguely remember the MOU being discussed... where can I find it?
11:26 walterbender I'll find the wiki link..
11:27 dirakx http://sugarlabs.org/go/Deploy[…]eam/Local_Lab_MOU
11:27 walterbender dirakx: too quick for me
11:27 mchua thanks, dirakx! today appears to be my day to ask many stupid questions about SL groups. ;)
11:28 so if an org wants to become a LL, is there a list of requirements somewhere, a list of benefits, a list of existing LLs (if we have any), a "here's a step-by-step process of what you'll have to do and how long it takes and what things you might need to have" thing?
11:28 dirakx walterbender: ;).
11:28 mchua (I'll move on from LL in a sec, since the other kinds of groups are more interesting to me right now)
11:29 dirakx mchua: we still like documentation in that sense.
11:29 walterbender mchua:  there will be when you write it up :)
11:29 dirakx s/like/lack
11:29 is thinking that is a must to have a deployment meeting next week.
11:30 mchua *grin* I'm glad to write it up, but I don't think I'm the one that should be making up the answers.
11:30 walterbender mchua: tke a first pass
11:30 mchua but I'll settle for one - if I'm an org that is interested in becoming a LL, what do I do to find out more / get started?
11:31 an actual, formal, "I'm interested in possibly signing legal pieces of paper; you already know me and I already think SL is awesome."
11:31 walterbender start with the link on the sidebar of the wiki
11:31 dirakx wiki is a good start..
11:31 walterbender we need a "madlib" version of the MOU for people to fill in...
11:31 dirakx and also mailist if thre are further questions.
11:32 IAEP.
11:32 mchua why is it required to be a legal entity? (I may have missed this discussion)
11:33 walterbender mchua: not sure it is
11:33 required
11:33 but an MOU between SL and whom? what?
11:33 there has to be an entity of some sort
11:34 and that entity should have a governance model
11:34 but I don't think it need to be incorporated in any formal sense
11:35 dirakx i think that if this entity, manages services or contracts has to be legally conformed.
11:36 walterbender dirakx: yes, but that is the other end of the relationshp.
11:36 dirakx right.
11:36 walterbender SL <--> LL can be with an informal group
11:36 dirakx sure.
11:36 mchua so for instance, the Olin College chapter, they've been around for a while, they're a club at the college, they're working on Sugar and a deployment, but they're not incorporated
11:36 walterbender LL <--> services to the public may need be formalized
11:36 mchua they could be a LL, just not sign a MOU
11:37 though if you can be a LL without incorporation and signing an MOU, why would you want to sign an MOU?
11:37 walterbender mchua: I think it would be best to sign an MOU
11:37 mchua for all LLs, incorporated or not?
11:37 walterbender yes
11:38 an MOU, not the MOU
11:38 mchua something different than the existing MOU, which is for legal entities?
11:38 walterbender so we have some understanding of expectations...
11:39 what we have is a draft and it is targeting legal entities...
11:39 dirakx mchua: the MOU is just a beginning.
11:39 mchua ok, I've been looking at what other projects do for non-legal-entity interest groups, and I can draft one up for SL
11:39 walterbender maybe we need another document too
11:39 mchua Okay. So what is the difference between the legal-entity-MOU and the interest-group-MOU?
11:39 walterbender but having some level of understanding between the groups is important...
11:40 dirakx walterbender: agree with that.
11:40 mchua does SL actually deal with legal entities differently? what can they do for SL that non-incorporated groups can't?
11:40 walterbender mchua: you tell me...
11:40 dirakx is beneficial for both.
11:40 mchua nods - understanding between groups is a good thing to establish
11:40 walterbender as long as we agree on the principles, e.g., freedom, then we are cool.
11:40 mchua walterbender, well, that's why I'm wondering why we want multiple MOUs at all. I can't see why an incorporated group would be any more useful to SL or any better at doing SL stuff than a non-incorporated group would.
11:40 walterbender then the MOU can be quite simple
11:41 mchua so it doesn't make sense to have two identical but separate interfaces for them, but I don't know a heck of a lot about legal stuff so I may be missing something.
11:41 walterbender mchua: you may be correct... but SL needs to be sure that it is not liable for what the LLs do
11:41 mchua ok, but why would that differ in the case of an incorporated or nonincorporated LL?
11:41 either way, you want to be non-liable.
11:42 dirakx the MOU is an statement of good faith between the parts.
11:42 mchua (like I said, I'm asking a lot of stupid questions today. ;) I'm trying to get to the point where I don't have any more questions on this.
11:42 dirakx np
11:42 mchua does the MOU give SL the "we're not liable" coverage?
11:42 walterbender mchua: yes. which is another reason we want an MOU, but as to why it needs to be different for differet types of groups, maybe it doesn't.
11:43 mchua walterbender: who would know or be able to find out?
11:43 walterbender mchua: you'd have to ask the lawyers...
11:43 sfc
11:43 they know
11:43 mchua okeydokey. I'll shoot an email asking SLOBs (ccing iaep) to ask the sfc, then.
11:44 walterbender any other LL questions? we have 16 minutes before the GSoC meeting
11:44 mchua in the meantime - Mike Lee's group down in DC is wondering what kind of group they should call themselves / what kinds of interfaces for groups SL has.
11:45 oh, plenty, http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Sandbox
11:45 dirakx mchua: ok, that is the way to go to answer your questions more specifically.
11:45 walterbender is not as good of a timekeeper as Mel
11:45 mchua dirakx: they have pretty much all of the things listed on #4 for http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Sandbox, or a bunch of people that could easily become one
11:48 dirakx mchua: it's worth to ask what pursuits does the different gruops have in relation to Sugar and Sugarlabs,
11:48 what are it's expectations and so on.
11:49 mchua I'm not sure I understand the question
11:50 They're already meeting and doing things and planning Sugar-related projects, playing with SoaS, really excited about the possibility of Sugar deployments with netbooks
11:51 they have no expectations of resources from SL, but wanted to know what resources were available, what sort of groups SL was looking for
11:51 dirakx mchua: hmm ok.
11:51 mchua (I think it's usually the organization that says "hey, you can have these kinds of interest groups, here's how!" rather than interest groups forming and going "so, you should make us official!")
11:52 walterbender we do have some  resources we could offer...
11:52 mchua (OLPC and SL are just weird in that we have no interfaces for groups to participate yet groups have sprung up anyway.)
11:52 walterbender mchua: irc is a participatory resource
11:52 so is the wiki
11:52 and are the mailing lists
11:53 and Sugar itself...
11:53 mchua yep, they're using all those already.
11:53 walterbender obviously you had something very different in mind
11:53 mchua do they have to do anything more to "become a real group in the eyes of SL?"
11:53 sign an MOU?
11:53 list themselves somewhere?
11:54 walterbender I think they should have a mission statement and a rep to SL
11:54 mchua I'll note that these questions come from a centralized mindset, so if these are silly questions to ask we should be making it clear to people that that's not how SL operates, since I think most people still assume central planning by default. ;)
11:55 walterbender we can offer xyz.sugarlabs.org
11:55 mchua: some things are centralized, but as few as possible
11:55 dirakx mchua: i think that the status of real to the eyes of SL is given by meritocracy..
11:56 walterbender we have consensus around using #sugar-meeting, for example, but a lcal group need not...
11:56 dirakx the group has to have somthings clear for starters, like a mission and so on.
11:56 mchua walterbender, dirakx: thanks - I think I have enough to take a first plunge through the wiki pages now.
11:57 Making up stuff happily as I go along. ;)
11:57 dirakx and then a MOU would be in order.
11:57 walterbender mchua: that is the nice thing about a wiki... easy to edit
11:57 mchua I think by tomorrow I should have a "here's what I did! please edit/throw tomatoes!" email out to iaep.
11:57 dirakx mchua: thanks for your questions, we are trying to do things the more distributed as possible.
11:57 mchua wiki w00t!
11:58 dirakx: I'm trying a hypothesis that centralized communication helps to decentralize action, in this case. ;)
11:58 anyway, i'ts about time for homunq's gsoc meeting
11:58 homunq OK... mchua, do you know how to run the bot?
11:59 #startmeeting
11:59 well um
11:59 #endmeeting
11:59 mchua homunq, just go ahead, I'll check what's up with the bot
11:59 if it doesn't work, I'll post my logs
11:59 walterbender mchua: if every LL used #sugar-meeting, for example, then  it would be much easier to cross-pollinate ideas... but on to the next topic :)
11:59 dantrix buenas dias
11:59 walterbender ciao
11:59 dantrix no me dijieron que era en ingles oopss
12:00 homunq OK, this is the meeting for internal organization of Sugarlabs' GSoC application/process
12:00 mchua homunq, it's spewing logs into http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]0090227_1200.html. wade didn't turn off the bot. but we can carry on.
12:00 dantrix se va a traer el diccionarario de ingles
12:00 walterbender isn't there a translation robot for en<==>es?
12:01 homunq no sabe si hay un bot
12:01 walterbender I'll go ask Hernan...
12:01 homunq usa en2es@bot.talk.google.com o algo así.
12:01 pero solo en google... en IRC ha de haber uno
12:01 OK sorry
12:01 mchua https://fedorahosted.org/lingobot/ == bot, if someone wants to set it up quickly in the background, but yeah we should carry on.
12:02 dantrix thanks
12:02 mchua listens to homunq!
12:02 homunq First item of business, mentors
12:02 we need more, and we need to be clearer about what it involves
12:02 have some way of evaluating if people are capable.
12:03 The relevant page right now is http://sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/Mentors
12:03 walterbender from Hernan: walterbender, alguien en #olpc lo hizo y automaticamente se traducia en #olpc-es
12:04 homunq My original proposal was 2 mentors per task
12:04 I now think that is a bad idea
12:04 but I do think that each person should be assigned a fallback mentor
12:05 If for whatever reason a mentor disappears, the fallback mentor steps in
12:05 mchua and we should have a "mentor pool" of "students, if you have questions and these people aren't around, look for these nicks on IRC, they've specifically said they want to help with gsoc project questions.
12:05 homunq and if that means that they are spread too thin, they ask for help
12:05 nteon_ mchua: that sounds like a good idea
12:05 walterbender homunq: given that there are only five people signed up, don't we have bigger issues?
12:05 homunq yes
12:05 mchua also keep in mind that we're likely to get 1-2 funding slots via google this year.
12:06 homunq I have posted a few calls for mentors
12:06 mchua so it seems like we can pretty easily find 2 mentors.
12:06 homunq mchua: where do you base that guess?
12:06 I would have guessed 3-4
12:06 if we can swing a good application and mentor pool
12:07 based on us "inheriting" a majority of OLPC's slots, as we've inherited most of their code
12:07 yamaplos Remember the Canvas guy we saw in Contributors'? that sounded like an interesting project for GSoC
12:07 homunq and a decent growth; last years' 4 slots, AFAIK, was limited by poor showing the previous year
12:08 but this is all speculation
12:08 dantrix byes
12:08 mchua I think that there was an announcement sent out saying that because of the economy or somesuch, they were cutting back on slots this year... trying to dig it up
12:08 yamaplos How could I help?  I don't feel quite qualified as a mentor for /code/, unless it's a project that has usability as a main criterion
12:08 homunq yamaplos: are you signed up as a mentor?
12:09 mchua and that new organizations usually started out with 2 slots
12:09 yamaplos not yet
12:09 walterbender if we identify interesting projects and interesting mentors, whether or not we get funding almost doesn't matter
12:09 yamaplos I guess I should...
12:09 tomeu mchua: cannot piggy back on OLPC past record as was suggested by SJ?
12:09 homunq yeah, they had I think 1250 last year and 1000 this year or so
12:09 mchua yamaplos, I'd hang out and listen to the rest of this meeting first
12:09 yamaplos, we're working out what people can do to help right now
12:10 tomeu: for various reasons, I think that would be a bad idea
12:10 homunq OK. So your expectations as a mentor:
12:10 yamaplos sure!  thanks - that was my intention, for once, to listen :-)
12:10 homunq 4 hours a week
12:10 mchua tomeu: happy to discuss more on pm if you want, so we don't sidetrack this convo ;)
12:10 tomeu nm, happy to leave this in more capable hands ;)
12:10 homunq try your best to have a 24-hour turnaround or better.
12:10 tomeu debugging AMO now
12:11 homunq have "office hours" of at least 2 hours/week on IRC
12:11 (that is part of your 4/week)
12:12 walterbender homunq: I think we can offer almost instant turn-around in #sugar in addition to "office hours"
12:12 homunq if you are a "backup" mentor, you should at least read the conversation for the project you're backing up for.
12:13 walterbender there is a "third mentor", the community, as backup
12:13 homunq walterbender: good point.
12:13 Should
12:14 "sugarlabs-gsoc" sign up as a contributor's program? Give xo's to all our students, permanently?
12:14 (oops, off agenda)
12:15 walterbender homunq: SoaS to all our students permnently !!
12:15 mchua that's an interesting idea, and we can talk about it at the end, I think ;)
12:15 walterbender has a sticky a key
12:15 homunq Do we need to have an advanced policy of when to reject a mentor? I don't have real reservations about anybody signed up so far, nor do I think nooBs are likely to sign up.
12:16 mchua mentors should generally have been active members of the SL dev community for... eh, a month or two? (rough guideline, not a requirement.) committed patches and such, been around IRC, on mailing lists.
12:16 homunq OK, that's good enough.
12:16 walterbender I think that rather than rejecting mentors, we should provide backup of know quantities as you suggested earlier.
12:16 mchua Well, I don't think we need explicit guidelines, but some sort of "in general, we think these things make for a good mentor" guidelines like ^^
12:16 so we can calibrate expectations
12:17 yamaplos rather than reject, others welcomed to apply as backup mentors....
12:17 homunq I'd say, more than a month or two. Three months?
12:17 (as a suggestion)
12:17 walterbender I think we just need to pair newbie mentors with people with roots in the community...
12:17 yamaplos +1
12:17 homunq OK.
12:17 mchua the more common case than "inexperienced person applying to mentor," I think, would be "experienced person who would make a great mentor thinking they're not good enough because they've only been around 3 months and maintain 2 Activities..."
12:17 walterbender it is another way to open the door to more people
12:18 homunq Who here will take the task of updating the wiki page with the results from here?
12:18 mchua homunq: Yep. Whatever the suggestions end up being, there'll be suggestions.
12:18 raises hand
12:18 homunq OK, so be it
12:18 mchua
12:18 Next item of business?
12:18 mchua I'm going to disappear after this meeting to do all my updates from the last 3 conversations. :)
12:19 Projects?
12:19 homunq yeah
12:19 mchua I think that's the *biggest* shortage we have, actually.
12:19 homunq the ? was "are we done", projects comes next for sure
12:19 mchua ah, okay. I'm ready to move on to projects.
12:20 walterbender homunq: can we suggest projects or do they come from the interns?
12:20 homunq: there is plenty of interesting work to be done
12:20 homunq walterbender: generally an org suggests a list of projects
12:20 but then interns choose or invent their own
12:20 the list is to give an idea
12:21 walterbender have we compiled a list specifically for GSoC?
12:21 homunq: there are lists all over the wiki
12:22 homunq the gsoc page references http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Team/ProjectIdeas and http://sugarlabs.org/go/Market[…]oadmap_brainstorm
12:22 walterbender and tomeu, erikos, et al. could make many additional lists
12:22 mchua we have a bunch of project ideas, but many of them are not very well explained (even if they're good ideas)
12:22 homunq There are two things we need, separately
12:22 long list of brainstorm
12:23 mchua just like the "here's stuff that usually makes for a good mentor," we need a "here's stuff that usually makes for a good project proposal"
12:23 homunq and more focused list of well-explained projects
12:23 mchua and also "here are the areas we're most interested in seeing people work on" - which is actually a known and answered question
12:23 (sort of)
12:23 homunq well, I would not say known, but certainly not unexplored
12:23 mchua when gregdek and I were talking about gsoc way, way back in... december or so, we put forth the idea of collaboration as a theme/focal point for this year's gsoc
12:24 to force us to build up our collaboration infrastructure
12:24 so it would be easy/possible for students to do meaningful work on it
12:24 homunq OK, so, without doing people's work for them, we can:
12:24 point to the GSoC application pages in OLPC for last year
12:24 mchua (similar to how the first OLPC Game Jam in June 2007 forced the Sugar Activity framework to accelerate development)
12:25 I already ported the SL-relevant project ideas from the OLPC wiki to http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Team/ProjectIdeas
12:25 homunq make a list of what we want most, why we want it, what overall skills and design choices we think are involved
12:25 mchua (I'd actually like to not point to OLPC stuff as much as possible, at least this year for gsoc.)
12:25 (but that's a Mel thing, and you can feel free to ignore it.)
12:26 (In general, I'm a fan of both projects, and a fan of both organizations being distinct and as separate as possible.)
12:26 homunq I think that we could ask last years' applicants specifically
12:26 that is kosher
12:27 if they say yes, we could actually copy the application to SL wiki.
12:27 cjb ello
12:27 (did you guys know that OLPC is doing gsoc again this year?)
12:27 homunq (that is also a way to contact them, they may well make good applicants this year)
12:27 cjb (talking in parentheses is fun)
12:27 walterbender cjb: I did not know one way or another...
12:27 homunq cjb: (yes but)
12:28 (we'd love to hear you tell us more about it)
12:28 walterbender cjb: what kinds of projects?
12:28 cjb: we should try to compliment the efforts
12:28 mchua hey cjb! is sj doing olpc's gsoc again this year?
12:28 cjb walterbender: you can complement them too, but I won't say no to compliments :)
12:28 cjl Those are nice efforts s/compliment/complement/
12:28 cjb mchua: yeah, that's right
12:28 mchua realizes how many acronyms were in that sentence...
12:29 walterbender cjl: i don't no how to spel
12:30 cjb it's a shame SJ isn't around
12:30 http://lists.laptop.org/piperm[…]ruary/023158.html is one of his mails about this
12:31 walterbender cjb: for example, would OLPC be interested in focusing on the XS?
12:31 cjb walterbender: certainly -- http://lists.laptop.org/piperm[…]ruary/023167.html
12:32 walterbender cjb: that would be a great boost to everyone!
12:33 cjb so there's definitely some interest in having gsoc interns work on the XS.  I can't give a good answer about what else SJ has planned, though -- I'll try and catch him in the office and ask him to communicate that.
12:33 homunq cjb: if someone came to OLPC with an application that was clearly sugar, with nothing XO-specific, would you send them to us?
12:33 cjb of course!
12:34 mchua I think the difficulty is in figuring out what projects are sl and which ones are olpc, but we should work that out on an app-by-app basis as we get them.
12:34 cjb no worries there.  I don't want to take Sugar interns at OLPC, it's not the right place for them.
12:35 mchua: yeah, I think so.  we should also coordinate the project ideas pages, though, since it's no good to have SL and OLPC ideas pages that both say the same thing
12:35 homunq cjb: would there be many hard feelings if there were more slots for SL than OLPC this year?
12:36 mchua Aye... I'll draft a "you might want to do a SL project if... you might want to do an OLPC project if..." thing, and then maybe we should send you and sj a list of sl's project apps once a good bunch have come in and ask "do you think any of these would be better off with olpc?"
12:36 cjb homunq: absolutely not
12:36 mchua er, cjb: ^^
12:36 cjb SL has, bluntly, more mentoring capacity than OLPC in my opinion
12:36 homunq OK, cool
12:36 walterbender mchua: we can ask Potter Stewart do tell us when a project is Sugar :)
12:36 cjb mchua: yup, or even meet up in person after the app deadline and wade through both sets together
12:37 mchua cjb: yay! that would be great, actually.
12:37 homunq Should we be telling Google that we plan to do this in our respective applications?
12:38 cjb we should send this log to SJ to make sure he's in the loop, too, since I don't think I'm going to be playing a big part in gsoc this year
12:38 homunq I think it could only help us both, actually
12:39 cjb homunq: sure.
12:39 homunq OK, cjb, you don't have the authority to answer that. So I will take the task of following up that question with SJ, but I personally think it's a good idea.
12:39 cjb great.
12:39 homunq back to projects
12:39 mchua homunq, google already knows; I've talked with leslie (who runs gsoc) about it.
12:40 short version of response: "ok, cool, just make sure you guys get all your paperwork in on time."
12:40 cjb :)
12:40 walterbender mchua: and the deadline is?
12:40 homunq mchua: so have I, about the general situation. I was talking specifically about the fact that we'll be coordinating specifically
12:41 which, AFAIK, was first raised just now.
12:41 walterbender: mar 9-13 for initial organization applications
12:42 walterbender homunq: anything you need from SL to get that application in?
12:42 homunq Um, that is item 3 in agenda
12:42 walterbender homunq: I assume we are applying as SFC?
12:42 homunq let's finish 2 first
12:42 back to projects
12:42 mchua walterbender: organization apps open this coming Monday. They're not due for some time after that, though due dates have not yet been announced.
12:42 walterbender will be more patient
12:43 mchua oh! due 13. okay then, yay homunq!
12:43 er, yes. projects!
12:43 homunq I think that everyone here can clean up one project on http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Team/ProjectIdeas
12:43 mchua I'll write up "this makes a good project description" suggestions
12:44 homunq say: what it involves (design outline/choices, skills) and why it is important to SL
12:44 dirakx just proposed a project ;)..for anyone that can take it.
12:44 mchua and since this falls within the 0.86 release cycle, maybe we should be asking our wonderful release manager what the priorities for that are
12:44 homunq 2-4 shortish paragraphs each, I think.
12:44 mchua: sure
12:45 About the idea of contacting last years' applicants...
12:45 I can go through the list on w.l.o and assign 2-3 to everyone here
12:46 that would be mchua, walterbender, dirakx, yamaplos, ...?
12:46 cjb homunq: have a chat with SJ about that
12:46 mchua homunq: release manager == erikos
12:46 homunq OK, I will ping sj first
12:46 CanoeBerry Just added above link to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Cont[…]utors_program#FAQ
12:46 walterbender homunq: maybe contact the original posters (although we are personally responsible for many of the entries)
12:46 mchua homunq: wait, contacting last year's applicants about what?
12:47 homunq about whether we can use their applications as examples for this year in sl
12:47 erikos mchua: ? priorities for 0.86?
12:47 yamaplos I'm cool
12:47 erikos mchua: those need still to be defined
12:47 homunq (and as an excuse to remind them that it's happening again, in case they want to apply)
12:48 erikos: process/timeline for definition?
12:48 erikos homunq: normally ~6 months from now
12:49 homunq 6 months until we have priorities?
12:49 erikos homunq: we talk about it in the dev meeting tomorrow
12:49 homunq: nah until the next release
12:49 homunq OK. If you can start talking priorities soon, we'd be happy
12:50 I'll try to attend tomorrow.
12:50 erikos ok
12:50 homunq Next agenda: application
12:50 erikos well tomorrow we will more decide on the process and what needs to happen
12:50 homunq um.
12:50 erikos but good to attend
12:50 homunq erikos: OK
12:51 Application is the big one.
12:51 I do not want to carry this alone, but we really have to start working now.
12:51 Can someone propose a division of labor? or some plan?
12:52 hunts some links
12:52 http://code.google.com/opensou[…]8250740394219425_
12:53 walterbender homunq: I can help with this
12:53 homunq First question, who will be our primary/backup program admins officially?
12:53 walterbender that is question #10 :)
12:54 homunq I could do it, but I think walterbender / mchua would maybe be better
12:54 mchua I'm currently the name on the list by default, and I'm happy to shoulder the admin burden. However, I'm equally happy to give it up to someone who would do a better job.
12:54 homunq walterbender: your opinion?
12:54 walterbender I raised the subject with Adam Hyde et al.
12:55 dirakx wishes to help, but he preffers to do a project.
12:55 or mentor one
12:55 walterbender typed into the wrong window
12:55 mchua homunq: if anyone needs to give permission, it's the development team, as gsoc is a project under its umbrella.
12:55 walterbender if mchua is willing...
12:55 mchua (so, marco. but he's already said, months ago, that I should do whatever I want with this, and I'm glad to pass that blessing on to everyone else.)
12:56 homunq seconds mchua nom
12:56 tomeu is happy when mchua does whatever she wants
12:56 homunq I could be backup
12:56 mchua homunq: I was about to propose the reverse arrangement, actually. :)
12:57 homunq mchua: are you planning to mentor?
12:57 mchua I'm unqualified to mentor code projects for SL, so not for gsoc.
12:58 homunq I think the main admin should ideally not be a mentor, though that is not definite
12:58 but that is why I prefer you as main admin.
12:58 mchua homunq: oh - you want to be a code mentor?
12:58 homunq not that I want to duck the tasks
12:58 yes
12:58 mchua ah, okay. then sure, I'll take it on.
12:59 homunq espera ser mentor en español...
12:59 mchua thanks for driving the bus today, homunq.
12:59 ah, si, que es importante tambien.
12:59 homunq, having you as backup will also help me a lot.
12:59 homunq so walterbender implicitly suggested taking Google's questions in order
13:00 mchua It's a good suggestion.
13:00 homunq 1 is pretty easy, get a blurb from marketingteam
13:00 mchua (btw, gregdek and karsten from fedora both suggested a weekly gsoc meeting from now 'till the end of the project, which I think is a good idea.)
13:00 homunq 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, all kinda easy.
13:00 mchua has to leave soon
13:01 homunq 9, application template?
13:01 walterbender homunq: why don't I tackle all of them as a draft this afternoon and then you can take a stab at fixing my errors
13:01 homunq great
13:01 mchua yay walterbender!
13:01 homunq that sounds perfect
13:01 cheers
13:01 walterbender I'll post it to the wiki...
13:01 homunq ... and email with the link :)
13:02 mchua sugar-devel and iaep, I'd say
13:02 well, actually, no, just sugar-devel
13:02 iaep announcement when we want a rush of mentors and projects and students
13:02 later
13:02 homunq OK. So, let's continue to drum up mentors.
13:03 And I think that's it?
13:03 meeting: #endmeeting
13:03 sorry, jumped the gun
13:03 walterbender just created http://sugarlabs.org/go/Summer[…]de/SL_application
13:04 homunq anyone else have anything to say before we wrap up?
13:05 mchua Yes.
13:05 I want to set up a weekly meeting for gsoc as per gregdek's suggestion
13:05 so I'll be putting up a meeting time poll to the mailing lists today as well.
13:05 dirakx good idea
13:05 mchua that's all.
13:05 homunq homework is me: ping sj about coordination and poaching last year's applicants; mchua: fix up mentor page; walterbener:application; everyone: flesh out project ideas page and be ready to help poach.
13:06 mchua sounds awesome.
13:06 thank you so much, homunq!
13:06 homunq mchua: also talk about applying to contributor's program?
13:06 mchua (want me to post logs?)
13:06 homunq mchua: yes please
13:07 mchua homunq: ok, will do. if the meeting's over now, we can talk about applying to contrib program really quickly now, or in 40min when I'm at 1cc sitting next to adam holt (and don't have to immediately run anywhere)
13:07 homunq dirakx: algo que deberíamos hacer con respeto a español?
13:07 mchua: ok later
13:07 dirakx homunq: hacer ping en las listas para buscar posibles interesados en projectos
13:07 mchua homunq: ok. off to the train now, I'll be back and ping you when I'm at 1cc soon.
13:07 dirakx y mentoring
13:08 homunq dirakx: hoy hice un pingitito con respeto a mentoring
13:08 dirakx hmm es cierto
13:09 homunq y era contestando uno con respeto a proyectos
13:09 dirakx hay varios interesados en uruguay por ejemplo
13:09 homunq entonces por el momento estamos bien. Volverlo a hacer en una semana.
13:09 dirakx bien
13:09 homunq dirakx: qué bueno.
13:09 OK, ya, done.
13:10 I gotta go too.
13:12 oh, walterbender, one thing...
13:12 walterbender si
13:12 homunq $
13:13 it is $4500 for each student, and $500 to the org for the mentoring.
13:13 walterbender what about $s?
13:13 to the org or to the menotrs?
13:13 homunq that decision is up to the org
13:14 cjb walterbender: it's to the org; the mentors are (must be?) unpaid
13:14 I've never heard of an org paying its mentors
13:14 homunq well, since some are direct employees, that is not quite true...
13:14 walterbender ok... SL could use the money to sponsor travel between the mentor and mentee?
13:15 the money should be dedicated to the needs of the mentor/mentee relationship in any case
13:15 cjb walterbender: the money won't arrive until after the program has ended
13:15 (a few months after, in fact)
13:15 homunq Personally, I'd be happy to mentor for free. But, even happier if I got half that money.
13:15 cjb so it cannot be used up front to fund activities during the program
13:16 homunq: I'm still very dubious about this paid mentor idea; I've done GSOC as mentor and mentee several times, and this has never been the norm
13:16 homunq I don't want to cause problems, just to raise the issue.
13:16 walterbender then we should bank it to use next year in support of the glue around the program and find existing funds to do the same for this year...
13:18 homunq OK, I'll drop it. Anyway, I think that walterbender is the one to think about how to use that money.
13:18 cjb (certainly.)
13:19 (well, we tend to vote on things like that, but yeah)
13:19 homunq I'm kinda dubious about travel - from my perspective, the world is pretty big for $250
13:19 walterbender cjb: a good topic fro Friday's SLOBs meeting
13:19 cjb walterbender: yup
13:19 tomeu someone could see what other projects do?
13:19 homunq sure, vote, but think about the options
13:20 cjb tomeu: no project I've been a part of (GNOME, OLPC) has ever paid mentors
13:20 homunq sorry $500
13:20 tomeu we could spend the money in soas sticks for a school local to the student :p
13:20 walterbender and a lousy t-shirt :)
13:20 tomeu or to the mentor, fwiw
13:20 homunq GSoC already gives t-shirts
13:20 :)
13:21 walterbender so we could encourage the mentors to sell the t-shirts to SL for $500 :)
13:21 homunq umm... great idea?
13:22 For $300 and 100 SOAS sticks.
13:24 OK. Peace out.
13:24 tomeu $200, 100 soas sticks and a wonderful, branded umbrella
13:24 cjb I guess one of the reasons here is that the student only gets paid if the mentor says they're doing well at each interval
13:24 homunq aaah
13:24 cjb and introducing money for the mentor creates a conflict of interest there
13:24 homunq yeah
13:24 definitely
13:25 cjb we can still ask Leslie about it
13:25 homunq Well, I personally am totally incorruptible. But yeah, for anyone else...
13:25 :)
13:25 user34u890 hi guys. how's it going? ;)
13:26 homunq wonders if that's a real person...
13:27 user34u890 user34u890 wonders if homunq is a real person
13:27 tomeu that passes the turing test?
13:28 homunq sure
13:28 user34u890 @tomeu does it?
13:28 tomeu I asked first ;)
13:28 user34u890 @tomeu so what do you think about that?
13:28 walterbender user34u890 AKA Eliza
13:29 user34u890 @Eliza you know i love of thee
13:29 walterbender thinks that if user34u890 were a real person, she'd use /me
13:29 tomeu xobot: tell user34u890 hi
13:29 xobot tomeu: okay
13:29 user34u890 @walterbender *facepalms*
13:29 xobot user34u890: by the way, tomeu told me to tell you 'hi' 10 seconds ago (on Wed Mar  4 20:28:52 2009)
13:30 me o hai!
13:31 cjl wonders when Endless September will end. . .
13:34 Guest80908 @cjl what is: yawgan?
13:34 cjl Guest80908: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
13:34 Guest80908 @cjl not cool :-/ ?
13:35 tomeu wonders if Guest80908 is written in turtleart
13:35 Guest80908 hang on, friendly friends in da haws yo ;) brb
13:37 cjl tomeu: Unlikely, the XO can't hold that many bits of randomness in only 1GB of NAND
13:38 Guest80908 @cjl agrees.
13:38 tomeu yeah, we really had a lack of entropy in the xo :p
13:38 Guest80908 so has anyone been able to figure out a truly random number generator or a quantum computer?
13:40 cjl tomeu The idea of grabbing entropy from hard-drive spin variations never got much of anywhere on the XO :-)
13:41 Guest80908 what is: spintronics?
14:28 mchua homunq, still around? sorry about that; snow tends to throw my transit time out of whack.
14:28 homunq sure
14:30 mchua
14:30 mchua homunq, you wanted to talk about giving gsoc students something as a "thank you" present, maybe XOs (and then walter mentioned SoaS as another option)?
14:30 homunq yeah
14:31 I think if we go through the contributors program, getting 1-6 xo's is probably pretty much a slam dunk.
14:31 mchua aye. do we want to try for XOs, though, or something less OLPC-associated?
14:31 homunq Then we could use a tiny bit of the $500 to sugarlabs to cover shipping
14:31 mchua (also, gsoc students get paid reasonably well)
14:32 homunq I think that a few SOAS would be good, but an XO is probably the biggest-ticket item we can get without actually paying for it
14:32 mchua it might be more SL-ish if we gave them the means - supplies and support - to do a small sugar deployment near them so that they can see kids using the code they made
14:32 "I got a laptop" vs "I got a deployment"
14:32 homunq I don't think it's exclusive
14:33 mchua for <5 students, I can commit to getting small pilots up near them
14:33 SoaS pilots - send out 25 sticks, that'll be pretty cheap.
14:33 some stickers, a shirt, something like that.
14:33 less than $50 total in supplies and shipping.
14:34 homunq, you're right, it's not exclusive at all
14:34 homunq Are you actively opposed to including an XO in that box?
14:34 mchua yes.
14:34 Well, -0.
14:34 homunq Hmmm.
14:34 mchua I'm opposed to it; I think a non-XO box would be better, but if an XO goes into that box I won't fight it.
14:34 Here's my reasoning.
14:34 I love OLPC, I think the XO rocks, you know all that already.
14:35 I think that right now, one of the best things we can do for both OLPC and SL is to differentiate them.
14:35 They are two separate orgs, and it's good that they are; they focus on different things. Right now they're all mixed up together, though.
14:35 And that leads to a lot of overhead for both orgs because stuff and people and projects keep shuffling back and forth.
14:36 One way to differentiate is to have an iconic product associated with each. SL's product is Sugar; OLPC's product is the XO.
14:36 One way SL has been differentiating itself has been through making SoaS, making Sugar run on non-XO platforms.
14:37 walterbender homunq: mchua: I am almost done with a first pass at http://sugarlabs.org/go/Summer[…]de/SL_application
14:37 mchua walterbender, you are magical.
14:37 homunq OK. Compromise: let students self-organize a contrib-program app if they choose, and say Yes, We Support It if they do.
14:37 :)
14:38 mchua homunq: that sounds great to me - I'll try to put together a shiny present package that's wonderful enough that they won't feel deprived without an XO, too.
14:38 homunq I agree with your logic, but still think that it is basically all upside if they end up with XOs somehow.
14:38 mchua (if a gsoc student's project depends on them having an XO, then it's probably not a good sl gsoc project.)
14:38 homunq, how's that?
14:40 homunq unless the XO is a total broken time-sink, I think it will help motivate Sugar work. They will also feel Cool to get an actual computer out of this.
14:40 but this is silly, I think we've already agreed, so stop trying to prove points.
14:41 walterbender ===What will you do to ensure that your accepted students stick with the project after GSoC concludes?===
14:41 The best we can do is infect the students with enthusiasm for our project's goals. We also plan to enable and encourage each student to launch a small pilot in a school in their community, thus investing them further in longer-term sustainability.
14:42 mchua will keep trying to disassociate XOs and Sugar, or rather reposition XOs as "one of many platforms Sugar runs on," but homunq, I agree. I think we're set.
14:43 walterbender hey, if OLPC is willing, we are able to put to good use any hardware that comes out way
14:43 mchua walterbender: I'll go even more direct and say "we /will/ launch a small pilot near the student so they can directly see immediate results of children using their work," and I'll make sure that happens (and well within the $500/student SL will get from Google.)
14:44 no additional commitment on the student's part required, but I bet most if not all of them will take us up on the offer.
14:44 walterbender mchua: make the edits!
14:48 mchua walterbender: edited
14:49 walterbender mchua: maybe you can make the next pass through the text and then let homunq  have a go at it...
14:50 homunq will look at it tonight.
14:58 mchua looking at it now
15:01 walterbender, when was SL incorporated? (Month is fine, just trying to do a "Google, we didn't exist last summer" thing.)
15:02 walterbender, I'm putting "fall 2008" for now, but that date might be off.
15:14 cjl homunq I think you may be mistaken in thinking that Contributors Program laptops are intended to be permanent (at least under recent revisions of CP).  Note on the new form http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Cont[…]ect_proposal_form that it is described as a loan and a specific length of the loan is a required element of the application.
15:16 mchua in transit again...
15:17 walterbender mchua: 2008-06-29 The Conservancy Board has provisionally approved Sugar's application to join the Conservancy...

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