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#sugar-meeting, 2009-02-13

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
12:13 marcopg nice
12:13 caroline cool
12:14 marcopg yeah let me paste the agenda
12:14 * Build system setup and infrastructure.
12:14 * Release announcement and changelogs.
12:14 * Activities packaging.
12:14 * Custom repositories.
12:14 * File system layout and customization.
12:14 * Testing.
12:14 * TODO.
12:14 let's start from build system
12:14 we currently have two streams of Soas
12:14 one based on Fedora 10 (soas-1)
12:14 another based on Fedora 11 (soas-2)
12:15 we can build soas-1 on sugarlabs1 just fine I think
12:15 or are there any problems with that box, erikos?
12:15 can we build xo images on it=
12:15 ?
12:15 BigOrangeSU Why do we need to have two? Can't  we just transition to one, and continue to port it to the new versions of Fedora as they are released?
12:15 erikos marcopg: have not done any xo images
12:16 marcopg BigOrangeSU: that's a point I want to discuss actually and it's not in the agenda, let's add it just after this infra discussion
12:16 erikos: we need to make sure that we can build them I think
12:17 erikos: want to take that as an action item? ;)
12:17 erikos marcopg: actually, i think no
12:17 marcopg: i mean i don't want to take it as an action item
12:17 caroline BigOrangeSU - speaking in my customer role, what effect will it have on my timeframe of having working sticks if we moved to just Fedora 11?
12:18 marcopg erikos: fair enough, then no xo images unless someone step up to do that work
12:18 (which is pretty bad because it reduces a lot the amount of testing we get, but ok)
12:18 erikos marcopg: yup - as hard as it may sound, but i have no time for that :/
12:19 caroline why do we want XO images? in what way to they help the project?
12:19 marcopg caroline: they get us more testing
12:19 caroline An XO image is a stick that could boot an XO to sugar right?
12:19 marcopg caroline: gary for example can only test on the XO
12:19 caroline so the value is people who only have XOs can test with them.
12:19 marcopg caroline: no it's a normal XO image that you can install on the nand
12:19 cjb (hi all)
12:19 marcopg hi cjb
12:20 sdziallas__ hates being kicked out of the internet
12:20 <sdziallas_> caroline: having it really usable... would be probably possible with beta release of F11 - which is afaik somewhere in the end of March.
12:20 erikos marcopg: maybe people should invest on making F11 run on the xo?
12:20 tomeu end of march still? wow
12:20 we froze sugar too early
12:20 marcopg erikos: you mean plain F11 or soas-2?
12:20 tomeu or we put too little bugs on the new code
12:20 erikos marcopg: plain F11
12:21 caroline ok, so we need to keep going on F10 for a good while. We have people who could be using SoaS with kids before the end of March.
12:21 marcopg erikos: I guess that's a question for cjb ;)
12:21 cjb they certainly should, and in fact they are :)
12:21 sdziallas__ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki[…]eases/11/Schedule - 2009/03/24
12:21 caroline are we working with F11 too early? Shoudl we wait and focus on F10 for anotehr 4 weeks?
12:21 marcopg erikos: I don't know if/who is interested in maintaining a stream of F11 + sugar
12:21 BigOrangeSU What is the benefit/drawbacks of running SOAS on F11 vs F10?
12:21 erikos marcopg: why a stream - 0.84 is in F11
12:22 marcopg let's close the discussion about xo images
12:22 then we can move to F10 vs F11
12:22 caroline ok
12:22 marcopg erikos: you still need to maintain a ks at best
12:22 erikos: and a build system to generate images
12:22 cjb so, OLPC isn't doing software releases any more, the way it used to
12:22 caroline XO image seems like a nice to have but it needs an owner.  Is that a statement anyone agrees with?
12:23 marcopg caroline: yup, that's pretty much my opinion
12:23 sdziallas__ caroline: exactly.
12:23 erikos marcopg: ok - about the images - i mean i am happy if someone is doing it
12:23 cjb as a result, probably the best way to get Sugar actually used by people with XOs is to have F10/F11 builds with Sugar in
12:23 marcopg I *might* be able to help out maintaning it, but only in 2-3 weeks from now
12:23 cjb I don't mind what it gets called; at the moment, I'm working on an F11+Sugar build for the XO
12:23 caroline ok so why don't we post a help wanted on the list and on the SoaS wiki page and let it slide till someone steps. up.
12:23 Marco, I feel like we have more pressing priorities for you.
12:24 sdziallas__ could try to help, but isn't sure
12:24 caroline I don't feel like the XO image is a great return on investment this month.
12:24 marcopg cjb: ok so I guess you are the owner we are looking for :)
12:24 caroline although its certainly something it woudl be great to have.
12:24 erikos sdziallas: we need you for the general SoaS, i presume
12:24 marcopg cjb: we could reuse the bits of soas infra and just use an olpc ks
12:24 erikos sdziallas: and the edu spin of course ;)
12:24 sdziallas__ erikos: :)
12:24 caroline ok if cjb feels passionately about it and its your top priority of how you want to contribute then go for it.
12:25 marcopg ok, let's move back to Soas
12:25 we can talk more about xo images off-meeting
12:25 so F10 vs F11
12:25 cjb marcopg: yeah, that's the sort of thing.
12:25 caroline My top priority for the next 2 months is getting somethign that we can use at conferences and we can take into classrooms for short couple hour lessons.
12:25 marcopg F11 is quite unstable these days
12:26 sdziallas__ marcopg: oh, yeah. it is really.
12:26 caroline just to make my bias completely clear
12:26 marcopg on the other hand, we can make some kind of changes only in F11
12:26 sdziallas__ caroline: two months is doable, imo.
12:26 marcopg unless we use F10
12:26 and do a lot of custom packages
12:26 caroline sdziallas, people are trying to use it today, I want to spend the next 2 months making it into a good experience.
12:26 marcopg which I doubt is sustainable right now
12:27 caroline: it's tricky because working more closely with Fedora life cycle will certainly slow down things a bit
12:27 sdziallas caroline: probably we could just continue to maintain both, and once F11 approaches a more or less stable stage, drop soas-1
12:27 marcopg caroline: but I don't feel like we have the resources to maintain our Fedora fork
12:27 caroline right, and now is when we are getting press and funders are looking.
12:27 sdziallas marcopg: which is also the reason why we're not calling it Fedora ;)
12:28 walterbender it seems that we have two bits (F10sF11) and (0.82 vs 0.84)
12:28 marcopg sdziallas yeah but maintaning two streams is sort of confusing/time consuming
12:29 walterbender: not quite
12:29 sdziallas marcopg: I'm not saying we should do this for a long time, maybe just for the next month...
12:29 marcopg walterbender: soas-1 is F10 + 0.84
12:29 sdziallas marcopg: but since we've also 0.84 in F10 with the additional repo... mh!
12:30 walterbender I was going to suggest that is the optimal quadrant to work in for the moment...
12:30 caroline What would the agile programing team do?
12:30 marcopg if we can get two maintainers for the two streams maybe it could work out fine
12:30 walterbender unless it demoralizes the F11 community
12:30 sdziallas thinks that it doesn't make sense to go with F11-only for *now*
12:30 marcopg proposes erikos maintains soas-1 and sdziallas soas-2
12:30 walterbender if they are both willing...
12:31 caroline lets discuss that vs dropping F11 for 4 weeks then pcikign it back up.
12:31 erikos marcopg: which brings us to the question what maintaining means
12:31 marcopg walterbender: I don't think it would demoralize them but... it means a lot of custom packages
12:31 walterbender: -> maint cost
12:31 sdziallas asks erikos about his opinion and nods
12:31 caroline I'm not saying that is what I think we shoudl do, I just want to hear the pluses and minues.
12:31 erikos i have been thinking about the general role for Sugar Labs regarding SoaS lately
12:31 marcopg erikos: I think it means doing what you have been doing in the last couple of weeks :)
12:31 fix distro issues
12:31 run builds
12:31 document/announce them
12:32 erikos so the thing is - is that really Sugar Labs work?
12:32 marcopg no Soas is *not* SL work
12:32 I think we should aim to make it a completely independent project
12:32 erikos right - but it looks like to most of the people
12:33 marcopg I know
12:33 it's tricky
12:33 because it's our only product
12:33 erikos yes - starting from getting an own tracker for example
12:33 marcopg: yes i know :)
12:33 marcopg curious about caroline opinion about that (and walterbender)
12:33 caroline I was hoping that we wuld get to teh point where most of the bugs people expeience using SoaS will be bugs in applications.
12:34 erikos marcopg: for example branding usb sticks with SoaS and promoting it as Sugar Labs work is dangerous
12:34 walterbender I see it as much the same as working with a distro in terms of bug-tracking...
12:34 caroline erikos..say more about that
12:34 marcopg walterbender: caroline I guess my main question is... is SoaS a SL product?
12:35 cjb caroline: sure; the bias is fine.  someone else needs to work on a way to get XOs running 0.84, though :)
12:35 erikos caroline: well it is a marketing issue
12:35 walterbender I don't think SL has products other than Sugar itself...
12:35 erikos caroline: and a support one
12:35 cjb I guess we run into this tension a lot
12:35 walterbender we work up and downstream to help people package it
12:35 cjb do we exist to write software in a vacuum, or to get it deployed too?
12:36 BigOrangeSU Doesn't sugar labs also have a live cd? as a product?
12:36 marcopg walterbender: with Sugar not being a real product
12:36 walterbender into their products
12:36 erikos cjb: yeah it is hard :/
12:36 cjb I guess GNOME has worked it out, so there's hope
12:36 marcopg BigOrangeSU: none of these are supposed to be SL products atm I think
12:36 walterbender I think that part of our SL responsibility is to work with the people who make products
12:36 erikos cjb: i think you can only work it out with clear separation
12:36 walterbender so I think of SoaS as a product... actually, there will be many such products...
12:37 erikos walterbender: absolutely
12:37 cjb erikos: that sounds right
12:37 marcopg there seem to be agreement on the fact that SoaS should be quite independent from SL
12:37 caroline as of right now I have no budget for SoaS or the Gardner deployment.
12:37 walterbender at least a Fedora and Ubuntu version in the short term
12:37 tomeu sugar is a product consumed by deployers, distros, etc
12:37 those people do products consumed by users
12:37 erikos caroline: i think we can work out independence without a budget
12:37 marcopg tomeu: yeah I'm using product only in the user sense, to avoid confusion
12:38 tomeu so I guess we don't have a product in that sense, yeah
12:38 erikos caroline: the important part is that we are clear about it - how we announce and promote it
12:38 marcopg I think the SoaS deployment team should be in charge of doing SoaS
12:38 walterbender Maybe SL should help ensure that team exists...
12:38 marcopg but we need people like me and erikos if nothing else to boostrap things
12:39 erikos marcopg: yes
12:39 see it like that - we have been looking for opertunities for devs to get paid as well - soas could be one
12:39 as it works out well to provide services etc
12:39 tomeu they day that everything that is being bootstrapped gets finally bootstrapped, SLs is going to fly
12:39 marcopg yeah all the user facing products are opportunities to get funds
12:40 caroline: does setting up SoaS as something quite independent from SL make sense to you?
12:40 caroline no not really
12:40 tomeu well, even if SLs decide to not do any user products, we still need to agree that if sugar doesn't get actually used, we don't have a reason to exist
12:40 erikos i would argue - that it will even speed up things - making it independant
12:41 caroline: happy to hear your thoughts :)
12:41 marcopg caroline: why not? (I have doubts myself, just trying to understand)
12:41 caroline I'm not really understanding your concerns and why you want the separation.
12:41 For marketing, it seems to be the best thing that has happened to Sugar marketing.
12:41 marcopg caroline: one of the points for the separation is that there are many sugar distributions
12:42 walterbender In some sense, since it is currently all the same people, it almost makes no difference in terms of work load... but what will attract more help and resources? and help the exsiting people sustain themselves?
12:42 caroline For branding it seems totally confusing to try to present everythign as separate.
12:42 marcopg caroline: if one of them is closely related to SL, the others will feel as second citizens
12:42 caroline In terms of getting a real pilot done, without SL support there is no pilot.
12:42 tomeu caroline: I'm concerned if we try a working model of which we don't have successful examples from which to learn
12:42 marcopg tomeu: I suspect there is no successful model for what we are trying to do
12:42 tomeu see GNOME Mobile, it's a product from the GNOME foundation, but GNOME itself doesn't do images or anything installable
12:43 walterbender I think that SL is committed to SoaS, just as we are committed to Sugar on Fedora
12:43 tomeu marcopg: there are soas equivalents in the gnome mobile world
12:43 intel does their own, canonical theirs, etc
12:43 caroline: those gnome mobile-based products still use the gnome brand
12:43 marcopg tomeu: GNOME does not have deployments, I think that makes a big difference. We are working on software which is targeted to a niche of users, not to a bunch of developers
12:43 hpachas-PE walterbender, pero la intensión de colocar sugar en los mobiless aun sigue en pie?
12:43 tomeu marcopg: gnome has deployments
12:44 marcopg: it's used in schools, in gov. departments, companies, etc
12:44 marcopg tomeu: yeah but they are a very small part of their user base
12:44 caroline I gues I also don't see why we want to separate SL from the deployments in general.
12:44 marcopg for Sugar deployments are the *only* user base
12:44 tomeu marcopg: don't see how that makes a difference
12:44 walterbender hpachas-PE: si, but someone(s) need to take on the project
12:45 tomeu we need to take care of deployments needs, just like gnome or kde need to take care of their users
12:45 walterbender maybe USMP?
12:45 caroline I feel like there is already too much separate and confusing, we should all be trying to come together not separate more.
12:45 hpachas-PE walterbender, si,suena un buen proyecto
12:45 walterbender caroline: I don't see this as separation...
12:45 hpachas-PE walterbender, que elementos son necesarios para ejecutarlo?
12:45 caroline ok, I am actually really confused as to what is being proposed here.
12:46 tomeu caroline: I actually see that if we follow a well known model, we are going to remove confusion
12:46 caroline tomeu not well known to anyone in education and they are the ones making the adopt Sugar or Adopt something else decision.
12:47 marcopg yeah that's a fair point
12:47 erikos caroline: is Sugar on Ubuntu a product of SL? I think that SoaS is something similar
12:47 caroline: that is the argument i guess
12:47 caroline what does it mean to be a "product of SL"
12:47 tomeu I'm quite a bit worried about how people expect SLs to do everything that OLPC tried and failed
12:47 marcopg erikos: Sugar on ubuntu has probably no users :)
12:47 erikos caroline: support
12:47 tomeu I see how people would want that, but I don't see how we are going to succeed
12:47 caroline why does it mean that?
12:48 marcopg actually I would argue that Sugar on Ubuntu is not a product
12:48 walterbender marcopg: give it time...
12:48 marcopg same as Sugar on Fedora (not a distro war :P)
12:48 caroline I think we need to create an open space for for profit red hat model companies to provide paid support. But we can't expect that without a user base that has money.
12:49 tomeu caroline: if SLs take care of some deployments, other partners with their own deployments might not feel they are giving equal opportunities inside SL
12:49 walterbender some of the netbook vendors are more likely to adopt Sugar on Ubuntu...
12:49 caroline if we go around making proclimations about how this or that is NOT a product of SL that is not gong to help adoption.
12:49 marcopg walterbender: maybe... I tend to think efforts like Soas will get us more users than traditional distros
12:49 walterbender because they already have Ubuntu support...
12:49 caroline we could state that SL does not provide official support.
12:49 tomeu right now, fedora is better supported because SLs devs are working directly on that
12:49 walterbender Same with Mandriva...
12:49 Caixa Magica
12:49 But as Tomeu suggests, Fedora support is more mature
12:49 hpachas-PE walterbender, he escuchado que sobre ubuntu no esta funcionando bien
12:50 marcopg tomeu: I'm not talking about the specific distro
12:50 the big difference
12:50 hpachas-PE walterbender, no lo he probado,
12:50 tomeu hpachas-PE: si, la proxima version tendra mucho mejor soporte
12:50 walterbender and the 3rd parties would have to contribute in kind support the way Fedora/RH has...
12:50 tomeu ubuntu intrepid salio con bastante mal sugar
12:50 marcopg is that Fedora or Ubuntu gets a *bunch* of users by just uploading a live image on the net
12:50 erikos see support question by hpachas-PE :)))
12:50 marcopg because it's targeted to developers
12:50 caroline being clear on maturity, expectations about support etc. makes sense, disowning things seems damaging to our branding and marketing.
12:50 marcopg in the Sugar case we need to go through some kind of deployed product
12:50 like it can be Soas
12:51 hpachas-PE fedora esta trabajndo mucho para F11 enbebido con sugar
12:51 marcopg or Caixa Magica
12:51 or...
12:51 we won't get users from the developers and linux enthusiast community
12:51 because they are not our main target
12:51 walterbender I think we need to be saying, if you want SoaS, the Fedora version is most mature... but try the Ubuntu if you want...
12:51 marcopg (and anyway *very* resistent to move away from a traditional desktop)
12:51 hpachas-PE o cualquier otra distribución..
12:52 caroline I dont; think SL should be promising anyone support.
12:52 hpachas-PE quizas por que no hacer que sugar pueda instalarse en cualquier distro.
12:52 marcopg walterbender: I actually find it very confusing that there is a Fedora soas and a Ubuntu one
12:52 caroline but that Sugar on all platforms and Sugar everywhere is part of what SL is.
12:52 hpachas-PE que sea una opción de escritorio.. asi como kde- gnome- sugar
12:53 marcopg caroline: right, but does that imply that SL should be developing Soas?
12:53 sdziallas has to run in 5 minutes :/
12:53 caroline anything else seems very confusing to me.
12:53 marcopg sdziallas: I guess we can have a more technical meeting later :/
12:53 sdziallas: or I'll send mail
12:53 erikos sdziallas: oh - now as it gets interesting ;p
12:53 caroline are we going to go make another agreement with SFC?
12:53 sdziallas has been following this discussion and is really unsure
12:53 erikos: ;)
12:54 marcopg caroline: but SL should then develop SoaS and a distro for say, the eepc etc?
12:54 walterbender marcogp: we cannot (should not) prevent other distros from making SoaS...
12:54 caroline yes, if we have volunteers who want to do it.
12:54 marcopg walterbender: I just think it's confusing to have them share the same product
12:54 sdziallas I think the will be always a connection between SL and SoaS. Sure thing. But it depends on what you really want to have. You can either make SoaS (Fedora-based) *the* official thing.
12:54 marcopg walterbender: it seem to me it should be branded differently
12:54 caroline if we had a group of peopel who want to work on eepc then they should under SL.
12:54 sdziallas Or you can seperate it and encourage others more and more to create things like SoaS.
12:55 walterbender SoaS is a lousy name to begin with...
12:55 sdziallas But imo, we're in a somewhat early stage, so I'm really... not sure
12:55 walterbender: lollipop :)
12:55 marcopg: okay... I'll just try to catch everybody later on IRC
12:55 erikos sdziallas: encourage others is an important part i think
12:56 marcopg caroline: hm, some of these distributions will be developed by entities which doesn't have interest to be under the SL umbrella
12:56 walterbender I think the different distros underneath will be branded differently...
12:56 marcopg or better under the SL brand
12:56 walterbender just as Sugar on the OLPC hardware is branded as OLPC, not Sugar
12:56 sdziallas erikos: probably, yeah, if you want to spread it more and more, yes.
12:57 caroline marco, its freedom, they can work together or separately. But I think the more we are together the better.
12:57 tomeu if there's a team in SLs maintaining sugar, and another team in SLs maintaining sugar on eeepc, does that create the right environment to encourage an external group to maintain sugar on gdium?
12:57 sdziallas erikos: btw, I commited newer ks files to the soas-1 branch, but left the other ones there, so that you can have a look at 'em...
12:57 erikos walterbender: only when it comes to bashing it is called Sugar :)
12:57 sdziallas: cool - thanks
12:57 tomeu heh
12:57 sdziallas is out, so see you folks ;) ttfn.
12:57 marcopg caroline: yeah trying to understand if branding one or more of these products as SL will make it more difficult to work with entities which doesn't want their product branded
12:58 maybe this whole discussion is more appropriate for a marketing team or slobs meeting
12:58 caroline hmm I dont really see why. I think we want to encourage people to work as close to SL as they can, but accept that some won't.
12:58 walterbender all that said, I would love to see a group put a real effort behind a single distro, since solid release of SoaS that SL can use as a reference...
12:59 marcopg I suggest that we backup and go back to technical planning for a bit :)
12:59 walterbender +1
12:59 caroline certainly my goal is to create a $ source that could sustain a SoaS deployment company. But it could well be 1.5 years till that is feasible.
13:00 marcopg erikos: what's your opinion about F11 vs F10?
13:00 I see caroline point
13:00 but I'm really scared to have to rebuild stuff like libabiword
13:00 or evince
13:00 it will be a lot of duplicated work
13:00 caroline for the next few months a really good experience available via a USB stick is a very good move for Sugar LAbs long term interests.
13:01 erikos walterbender: i know that we need a reference
13:01 marcopg and we currently don't have a lot of resources to devote to distro work
13:01 tomeu caroline++
13:01 erikos marcopg: hmm, i am a bit biased - does f11 on a stick boot?
13:01 marcopg erikos: yeah, at least the last time I tried
13:01 but on my thinkpad
13:02 exp with other hardware might be worst
13:02 cjb erikos: if it doesn't work with Sugar and you ignore it, though, it means you're not going to get an F11 Sugar
13:02 caroline fwiw, I am working on a business plan and will look for investment. But we need to plan for a complete bootstrap given the economic climate etc.
13:02 erikos cjb: you mean we should better now put all the energy in f11, right?
13:02 tomeu I guess we all agree on bootstrapping whatever it takes to get there, regardless of our opinions on longer term strategy
13:03 marcopg tomeu: yeah
13:03 cjb erikos: not necessarily all, but at least some
13:03 erikos cjb: yeah
13:03 marcopg: how about the following
13:03 tomeu I'm testing on 4 distros, coding php, etc because of that
13:03 would prefer to just code sugar, though
13:03 erikos marcopg: soas1 - will live until Sugar 0.84 is out - after that - we only work on soas-2
13:04 marcopg tomeu: we need to figure out how to let a couple of people just code sugar :(
13:04 tomeu yeah
13:04 erikos marcopg: heh that is currently the main problem to me
13:04 marcopg erikos: are we going to do the libabiword/libevince work on soas-1?
13:04 walterbender to get there, other people have to do the upstream work...
13:04 marcopg that's my main question I guess
13:04 erikos marcopg: if sugar sucks we don't evenneed to talk about soas
13:04 marcopg for caroline too
13:04 tomeu and we need also to have time to think about managing the coding work
13:04 walterbender to get them to do it, they have to be excited and see the possibilities...
13:04 cjb it seems like we already have a pretty good separation
13:05 walterbender so we have to go where they are
13:05 erikos marcopg: yeah, nasty question
13:05 cjb for example, Sebastian/Peter/I are working on integrating Sugar with F11
13:05 walterbender which means php, yuck
13:05 cjb we're not working on Sugar code itself
13:05 marcopg caroline: how soon do you need a working soas? :) with many activities etc
13:05 caroline We needed it for last week when teh PR came out :)
13:06 erikos marcopg: maybe we should just ditch soas-1
13:06 caroline people are looking and judging Sugar on it now.
13:06 walterbender marcopg: without abiword and evince, it is not very useful in the classroom...
13:06 marcopg walterbender: right, so we either do the forks on F10 or we just drop soas-1
13:07 caroline I'm tempted to fork and make the bet that by puttng out a better product sooner we can attact developers/ and/or money.
13:07 marcopg so fedora final is 2009-05-26
13:07 caroline if we lose that bet I'm ot sure we can make the deadline for the fall pilot anyhow.
13:08 marcopg caroline: that means that SL needs to invest a bunch of time into SoaS though
13:08 caroline right, so its clearly not only my decision.
13:08 marcopg i.e. a good fraction of erikos and my time will have to go into distro work
13:08 instead of sugar coding
13:08 caroline but the bet I am talking about is about betting on getting resources for Sugar in general.
13:08 cjb so maybe the answer is "we can't afford to put marco and simon on distro work full-time, but if we did have the resources, this is what we'd want to do"
13:09 (which just means we need to work to get the resources)
13:09 walterbender maybe this is an ask for some industry partner.
13:09 marcopg hm
13:09 caroline walterbender who?
13:09 marcopg aleksey expressed interest into doing that work
13:09 maybe we need to just let him maintain soas-1
13:09 alsroot_ caroline: if it makes sense I could take work of packaging activities (as much as possible) for SoaS
13:10 marcopg and fork as much as he like
13:10 alsroot_: how does that sound :)
13:10 walterbender if we are targeting Fedora, it would have to be someone who has interest in Fedora
13:10 alsroot_ marcopg: parsing deps/add spec template/put it to rpm repo
13:10 tomeu I'm pretty sure alsroot_ is capable of doing that, but he has already taken a ton of stuff ;)
13:11 walterbender if alsroot_ will do it, that would seem to solve a lot of problems
13:11 marcopg tomeu: yeah but this is very high priority as caroline point out
13:11 tomeu agreed
13:11 marcopg tomeu: so maybe it's the best use of his time
13:11 alsroot_ and moreover it could benefit another jhconvert's distoros
13:11 tomeu I expect that caixa magica thing can be left now on its own
13:11 erikos one could argue as well - if alsroot helps on soas-2 we would be quicker ;p
13:11 marcopg erikos: we actually have quite a bit of time for soas-2
13:12 erikos: we don't have to be very quick
13:12 tomeu but if rawhide is too unstable, makes it sense to start working on soas-2 now?
13:12 marcopg (i.e. there is better to go slowly and do stuff right)
13:12 tomeu: if we don't, when F11 is out it will not be good enough for us
13:12 so my proposal is:
13:12 erikos tomeu: the problem is just all those backports we need to make :/
13:12 caroline What I'd love to see is a press release every time we get a new activity out and stable on SoaS inviting people to come back and play with it. maybe get help with lesson plans and activities, youtube demos etc.
13:12 tomeu erikos: for 0.84 to run on F10?
13:13 marcopg 1 alsroot_ take over soas-1 maintenance and works with caroline on what she needs on the short time
13:13 erikos tomeu: yes
13:13 tomeu erikos: do we have many dependencies not in F10?
13:13 caroline If we put this effort in technically we need to leveage it with marketing and exposure.
13:13 marcopg 2 erikos and marco works on soas-2 trying to get it mature by the time F11 is released
13:13 how does that sound to everyone involved?
13:13 alsroot_ marcopg: makes sense
13:13 erikos is fine with me too
13:14 tomeu: evince for example
13:14 tomeu sounds good to me
13:14 erikos: damn, true
13:14 marcopg caroline what do you think?
13:14 caroline explain what it means to me as the customer please
13:15 erikos but alsroot_ might have to give up his slipstick work ;p
13:15 marcopg caroline: for the short time it means alsroot_ will take over Soas work basically
13:15 caroline: he will work on making activities work
13:15 caroline: by forking stuff from Fedora
13:16 walterbender I will also ask for more support from a few potential industry partners... cannot hurt to ask
13:16 marcopg caroline: generic stuff like customization can be worked at the same time for both streams I think, so I and Simon can still help with that even on the short time
13:16 caroline and marcopg and tomue will be focusing on work that will take how many months till a end user can see the result of?
13:16 marcopg caroline: 5 May
13:16 cjb caroline: maybe three
13:17 although I'm sure it will be bootable/usable before then
13:17 marcopg actually 26 may sorry
13:17 erikos caroline: it will actually not be so much different to what you will see on alsroot_ work
13:17 caroline: i mean sugar will only see more bug fixes now
13:18 caroline hmm, I'd be a lot happier with more work towards the short term goals.
13:18 as the BP I am writing next week maybe in front of investors in less then a month. but getitng money is a long shot so I understand your desire to invest for the future.
13:19 marcopg I'm not sure how to make decisions on this kind of stuff I guess :)
13:19 erikos caroline: how do you actually need to present?
13:19 marcopg what if let alsroot_ take over the effort
13:19 tomeu caroline: why don't we start like this, then in a week see how things are going and decide if we need to pour more resources in soas?
13:19 marcopg and judge if it's worth for us to help out
13:19 depending on how much progress he make/what we need
13:19 caroline erikos I think these people, and others who are looking at us will not wait for us to present
13:19 erikos caroline: i mean showing a class working with soas?
13:19 caroline they will goto the website and make a stick
13:19 tomeu no need to make a 5-year plan right now
13:20 marcopg tomeu: correct, I think that's the best plan
13:20 caroline erikos, I can wait in terms of going in front of kids
13:20 marcopg I think the only decision we should make now is that alsroot_ maintains soas-1
13:20 caroline but I *know* there are funders lookign now. I hear it through the grape vine.
13:20 marcopg and that we are fine with forking it a lot from Fedora
13:20 erikos caroline: maybe we should get the page nice then ;p
13:20 caroline and they will be judging by what they see up on the web.
13:20 erikos, yes good idea
13:20 marcopg how much effort we put into it is something that can be determined gradually
13:21 caroline its all volunteer so each person gets to decide.
13:21 marcopg anyone opposed to that plan? ;)
13:21 erikos Potemkinsch villages :)
13:21 tomeu marcopg++
13:21 marcopg caroline: right but we can also let people know what we think is most important for SL
13:21 alsroot_ marcopg: +1
13:21 caroline but my pitch is to make a great stick *now* and hope that turns into enough extra resoures to justifiy the refactoring that will be needed for F11
13:21 tomeu one more consideration is that by getting 0.84 well packaged in soas, we can get more testing for 0.84
13:22 erikos caroline: we should at least make sure all the activities on the stick work
13:22 walterbender caroline: a *great* stick now is not feasible
13:22 caroline yeah
13:22 walterbender but a demostration stick now is...
13:22 erikos marcopg: that we should finish i guess (taking out if neessary)
13:22 caroline erikos yes
13:22 tomeu well, I think that the refactoring is needed to put 0.84 into F10, not into F11
13:22 marcopg we need to wrap up sorry
13:22 (or at least I need to go asap :P)
13:22 walterbender it is not usable in a classroom without Write and Read
13:22 marcopg let's make some action items
13:22 walterbender but it demonstable now
13:23 erikos friday - italy cinema day
13:23 marcopg close the meeting
13:23 BigOrangeSU wonders what part of the agenda we are on
13:23 marcopg and then we can keep discussing
13:23 erikos: nah just mom calling for food ;)
13:23 BigOrangeSU: heh
13:23 erikos only erikos' stomach is calling for food here
13:23 caroline thanks everyone!
13:24 marcopg so action item 1
13:24 is alsroot_ to take over soas-1
13:24 erikos caroline: yeah - i think this discussion was needed
13:24 alsroot_ marcopg: yup
13:24 marcopg what if you get in touch with me by priv mail
13:24 caroline SoaS is doing great so far and attracting interest, its a good position to be feeling so much pressure.
13:24 marcopg and I make sure you have everything you need?
13:24 alsroot_ marcopg: ok
13:25 marcopg the other is erikos to start working on soas-2 I guess
13:25 erikos marcopg: we need to give him an account for the building servre - to sebastian as well
13:25 marcopg with me and sdziallas
13:25 erikos ok
13:25 marcopg I can send out mail to start/coordinate that work
13:25 and finally
13:25 caroline and I do totally get and respect your needs to not fork too far from Fedora releases.
13:25 marcopg I'll take care of calling another meeting at some point in the near future
13:25 to go through the points of the agenda we didn't cover
13:25 mainly releases, changelogs, testing
13:26 caroline: thanks for pushing us to look at customer needs
13:26 caroline thats my customer role job :)
13:26 marcopg so that's all what I have
13:26 thanks everyone for coming
13:26 and sorry if it was a bit of a mess
13:27 we covered a lot of ground
13:27 even if not exactly what we planned to cover :)
13:27 BigOrangeSU your welcome :)
13:27 alsroot_ caroline: do you have a short list of activities that should be runable on soas-1?
13:27 marcopg hope to see all of you to the next meeting
13:27 thanks!
13:27 erikos marcopg: thanks for hosting us!
13:27 marcopg #endmeeting

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