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#sugar-meeting, 2008-11-26

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Time Nick Message
10:19 eben #topic highlights from previous roadmap discussion
10:19 As I understand it, those who were around for the SugarCamp discussion on Saturday laid down a basic roadmap.
10:20 tomeu that I was supposed to transcribe from the photos to the wiki
10:20 eben I wasn't able to make that discussion, so in the interest of preventing redundant work, it would be great for someone to summarize that effort (perhaps it's already documented somewhere).
10:20 dogi hi all :)
10:21 tomeu I can write here what we wrote in the whiteboard
10:21 hi dogi
10:21 dogi :)
10:21 tomeu ok to start with that?
10:21 eben tomeu: Sounds good, you've got the floor. :)
10:22 tomeu 1. Legacy -> marcopg, (_bernie)
10:22 2. Accessibility -> utoronto
10:22 3. Stability
10:22 4. Performance -> marcopg
10:23 5. Portfolio/Journal -> scott, tomeu
10:23 6. Bulletin board
10:23 7. View source -> walter, tomeu
10:23 8. Grab key
10:23 marcopg I'm unlikely to be able to do 1 and 4
10:23 tomeu 9. i18n
10:24 marcopg unless olpc let me work on it
10:24 tomeu 10. Collaborate -> scott, marcopg
10:24 11. Push to talk
10:24 erikos what is 1?
10:24 tomeu 12. Base system
10:25 13. Shared pointer session (VNC)
10:25 14. File sharing via journal -> tomeu
10:25 15. New collaboration features
10:25 16. Work with distributors
10:25 16. Work with distributors -> marcopg
10:26 17. File passing fallback -> tomeu
10:26 18. Overlay chat
10:26 19. New activities
10:26 20. Sugar apps in standard (legacy?) environments
10:27 ok, so we do that, call it 0.84 and we can go home
10:27 eben heh, excellent.
10:28 morgs has to go, will be back later and read the log, especially interested in collaboration, distributors, overlay chat, file sharing, activities
10:28 tomeu what doesn't have an owner is because the little green men will take care of that
10:28 marcopg erikos: 1 is standard desktop applications
10:29 tomeu 17 is a very clever hack that someone thought of and that don't know why we didn't thought of before
10:29 eben OK, so as this is a design meeting, I'm particularly interested in items which have implications in UI, and directly affect user experience.  That reduces the scope, but only a little.
10:29 erikos marcopg: ok
10:29 eben So let's move through the list and discuss briefly each item which fits that description.  Sound reasonable?
10:29 tomeu 17 means that if an activity doesn't support collaboration, we could transfer the journal entry first, then launch that activitiy on the other laptop
10:30 erikos what is about the mesh view?
10:30 walter Can I add a 21 which is a bit different in nature?
10:30 21 Making UI adjustments for non-XO machnes
10:30 erikos the UI to support the views that were added to telepathy?
10:31 eben walter: interesting
10:31 Does everyone agree with moving through the list?  If so, I'll set the topic to each feature, and we can either toss it or discuss it briefly, and then move on.
10:32 Unless, instead, owners of various topics have specific questions and would rather base the discussion around those instead...
10:33 erikos eben: please go ahead
10:34 eben #topic legacy
10:34 It's not immediately clear how this affects UI, and that depends in part on how we go about it.
10:34 tomeu I can take 21
10:34 eben marcopg: any comments on this?
10:35 marcopg mmm
10:35 I don't think it would affect UI
10:35 other than the fact that it will be possible to have less integrated applications
10:36 eben ok, I presume the primary goal here is running legacy apps in Sugar, right?
10:36 We had some discussion already about how to handle non-sugar icons in our launcher, etc, but beyond that, we can breeze past this for now, I guess.
10:36 marcopg yeah
10:37 eben #topic accessibility
10:37 marcopg running a parallel desktop is not a Sugar goal
10:37 (but an olpc one)
10:37 eben We don't have utoronto here at the moment
10:37 Obviously accessibility and UI go hand in hand, but I think this can be handled on a case by case basis.
10:38 Was there any discussion already about specific accessibility improvements?
10:38 keyboard accessibility is a big one; Hippo has none right now.
10:38 marcopg it seem to me that unless we have commitment to work on this, we won't be able to make it a goal
10:38 eben We should put some effort into making accelerators ubiquitous in the OS and activities...
10:39 icarito actually it would be very nice to fully keyboard navigate - i'm unable to do so, perhaps i miss some accelerators
10:39 eben I think the accelerators is the best first order goal; and that's something that we need activity developers to assist with.
10:40 icarito: Would you be willing to keep a list of instances where you find shortcuts missing?
10:40 icarito eben ok i can take that responsibility
10:40 tomeu accelerators++
10:40 icarito i'm using sugar more and more as my main desktop
10:41 eben I believe we fixed a few problems with accelerators just before the 8.2 release.
10:41 icarito i'll keep notes and share them about those
10:41 eben So a call to activity developers to embrace them would also be wise.
10:41 tomeu yup
10:41 eben I think we can move on for now.
10:41 #topic stability
10:41 This is general, skipping it...
10:42 performance is also general
10:42 marcopg there might be some automatic testing work we can do
10:42 eben #topic journal/portfolio
10:42 marcopg and work with distro testing teams on processes
10:42 but yeah very general
10:42 eben This topic is quite large.  Let's try to hit some key points without going into in depth discussion.
10:42 I can see this going two ways:
10:43 1. Scott has a fancy-pants new Journal concept.  It's a prototype at the moment, and may or may not get done.
10:43 2. Tomeu has a plugin replacement for the current backend, which improves things such as metadata support and stability.
10:44 What I think we should discuss briefly are the features which we need regardless of which of these paths we choose.
10:44 tomeu eben: I would also like to have some discussion about doable things that improve usability
10:44 eben For instance...
10:44 We don't have a way to filter to show only starred items in the list.
10:44 tomeu sounds pretty good
10:45 eben We need checkboxes to support multiple-selection and bulk operations such as deletion and tagging
10:45 tomeu eben: I should assess how much work would take to implement the action/object view
10:45 eben tomeu: That would be great.  Honestly, I think there are a lot of things we can do to improve without introducing that split yet, but having a work estimate would be excellent.
10:46 erikos eben: little things - like being able to launch an entry from the listview with any type matching activity
10:46 tomeu ok
10:46 eben Loosely related, we need to nail down what we mean by "encourage naming/tagging" and Just Do It (sorry, Nike)
10:46 Gregorio on work estimate, it would really help a lot if we can track requirements and specifications
10:46 eben erikos: Yes, that's another good one.
10:47 icarito eben: actually, the UI could invite to rename the activity
10:47 Gregorio I think all sugar roadmap items are cross referenced here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Feature_roadmap
10:47 icarito a little affordance would be welcome
10:47 erikos tomeu: and make it easy to download a file and access it from outside the journal
10:47 icarito activities too often remain "activity x" on the journal
10:47 Gregorio It doesn't matter much where you record it but please list the requirement and the design somewhere
10:47 eben icarito: right, that's exactly why we want to start prompting more heavily; we just need to spec it and do it!
10:48 walter I think the portfolio can live easily in these feature sets
10:48 eben Does anyone else have any "small but important" improvements we should definitely push into the Journal for the next release?
10:49 walter searching for starred items is key to me
10:49 eben Another really big complaint in the field is that the Journal fills up, and people just wipe it.  This is counter-productive to our educational goals.
10:49 tomeu Gregorio: agreed, please keep pinging when we forget about it
10:49 erikos eben: oh yeah this sounds bad
10:49 eben Multiple-selection improves this some (since you can delete in batch)...
10:49 But we might give some thought to a way for the Journal to /suggest/ items for deletion.
10:50 This is not to say we should delete stuff willy-nilly, but beginning to introduce the idea of "forgetting", somehow, might be feasible.
10:50 Do others think this is something worth some design cycles for this release?
10:50 erikos eben: and maybe several levels of 'forgetting'
10:50 tomeu yeah, well, as you said, we should start talking about doing things and Just Do It
10:51 eben: that forgetting thing looks a bit fuzzy to me
10:51 eben tomeu: how so?
10:51 tomeu s/start/stop
10:51 icarito perhaps older, unstarred items should be offered for deletion or backup?
10:51 tomeu eben: I don't see how we could get to something implementable yet
10:51 icarito: yeah, time and favoriteness are two criteria
10:51 eben icarito: Right, there are a number of heuristics we can apply, such as un-starred, frequency of use, recency of use, etc.
10:52 icarito just hates when systems think they are smart and creatively "suggest" wierd things
10:52 but i guess its a tradeoff
10:52 eben But ok.  It sounds like most agree that, if we had a design, it would be worth a first pass.
10:53 tomeu: you don't think we could reach something implementable?  Or you don't think we have a design for something implementable?
10:53 If you don't think we could find a design that is implementable, I may not give it more though; otherwise, I'd like to see how we could begin to introduce something in this area.
10:54 Let's take it offline, I guess.  I'll ponder it.  Moving on?
10:54 tomeu eben: I meant that we don't have a design
10:54 and I don't see it as an easy problem
10:55 icarito ok... recycle might be a nice metaphor btw instead of delete
10:55 tomeu but there's no problem in discussing further
10:55 erikos eben: lets see the 'able to group items' and delete them as a first start
10:55 eben tomeu: OK.  Then I'll work on one, keeping it simple ;)
10:55 tomeu nice
10:55 eben #topic bulletin board
10:55 This has been an on-and-off topic since the beginning.
10:55 I've actually thought a lot about this, and we discussed it at a previous design meeting to.
10:56 marcopg but we don't have a solid design for it yet right?
10:56 eben I'd like to table it, for now, because most recent thinking has indicated this might exist as an activity.
10:56 And I don't think it's in the 9.1 timeframe, as it depends on a seamless inter-activity launching scheme.
10:57 marcopg: I actually have fairly decent ideas around this.  I will try to solidify some designs for it, but likely near the end of this cycle, perhaps for the next release instead.
10:57 I don't think it's priority now.
10:57 #topic view source
10:58 I know Tomeu has worked some on this, and I believe a working prototype exists.
10:58 Update there?
10:58 tomeu need to address some feedback from activity authors
10:58 some activities will need updating
10:58 eben tomeu: could you outline the basic functionality?
10:59 tomeu eben: it displays the content of the bundle on a tree view on the left
10:59 and the source in the rest of the panel
10:59 eben This is in a modal dialog (akin to control panel)?
10:59 tomeu it can also show the source of a document if the activity provides it, like browse does
10:59 eben: yup
10:59 eben: you should just try it ;)
10:59 eben tomeu: indeed
11:00 erikos eben: room for design nitpicks - but a nice start ;p
11:00 eben tomeu: OK.  And right now, what's shown is chosen by the activity/system....that is, there is no option yet to the user if there are more than one possible things to show?
11:00 tomeu eben: in the browse case, there's a button for switching between the bundle view and the document source
11:01 eben: turtleart will be similar, some logo source will be displayed
11:01 eben tomeu: Ah, neat.  OK. So it sounds like I should indeed just try it, and it's mostly done apart from some design finesse.
11:01 tomeu eben: in the etoys case, they will override all this and display instead the smalltalk code browser
11:01 eben: yeah
11:02 eben An idea I wanted to toss out quickly:  The view source window /could/ also serve as a place for activity settings/prefs.
11:02 Any comments on this?
11:02 (Defining it more as a way to peek inside and/or tweak the behavior of an activity)
11:03 erikos hmmm interesting
11:03 eben Though we could also keep this wholly separate, and add a new icon to the activity toolbar (or menu) as well.
11:03 tomeu yeah, it's interesting
11:03 eben using the same icon used for the system.
11:03 tomeu eben: was thinking of adding a menu item to the activity palette so the shortcut is more obvious
11:03 eben I don't want to dwell on it now, actually, but we can go into more detail in a future design meeting.
11:04 tomeu: Right, I would strongly suggest that as well, actually.
11:04 OK, let's move on for now.
11:04 erikos eben: i think the idea of 'pealing off layers' sounds right to me
11:04 eben #topic grab key
11:04 This is a thorn in my side.
11:04 tomeu eben: but it's only available in olpc hardware
11:04 erikos erikg has done some work on it, or?
11:04 eben We /really/ need to make this work sooner than later, or we're going to have to abandon it altogether.
11:05 tomeu eben: well, we need to think about non-olpc hw
11:05 eben tomeu: well, is that strictly true?  Another shortcut could be defined for non-olpc keyboards, right?
11:05 icarito what would be an equivalent on non-xo hardware?
11:05 tomeu icarito: there isn't a clear equivalent :/
11:05 icarito: closer would be the scrolling gesture in a multitouch touchpad
11:05 erikos tomeu: this is a general issue we have to think about - people have difficulties to find the F1-F4 keys for the zoom levels
11:05 eben tomeu: indeed....
11:06 That's exactly what we aim to mimic.
11:06 marcopg grab key is not relevant to this meeting imo
11:06 tomeu eben: well, we can add shortcuts to the zoom levels
11:06 marcopg highly olpc specific
11:06 eben erikos: That's solved by adding accelerators to those palettes
11:06 tomeu right
11:06 eben marcopg: Well, that's not entirely true.
11:07 erikos eben: ok - cool - so i think this is a very important feature then - the accelerators
11:07 eben If you claim that Sugar in general has no need for a grab key, then we should be discussing scrollbars instead.
11:07 The current scrollbars are NOT designed for heavy conventional use.
11:07 icarito perhaps we could use the windows key - affordance would be grabbing hand / greedy hand ;-)
11:07 eben If, instead, we intend to depend on scrollbars in the conventional manner, we should be adjusting their design so they can be seen and grabbed more easily.
11:08 icarito actually, I'd call scrollbars to attention as a priority if possible
11:08 marcopg eben: well, on non-olpc hardware we will have to, right?
11:08 icarito especially with current xo pointer
11:08 marcopg unless you have ideas on doing somthing similar on generic hardware
11:08 icarito scrolling is particularly bad on the xo
11:08 eben marcopg: Well, that's what we need to figure out.
11:09 Perhaps the solution in the short term, for everyone, is to increase the size of the scrollbar.  How hard is such a change, to try it out?
11:09 Is that a benzea question?
11:10 marcopg very easy I think
11:10 and yeah benzea can help
11:10 icarito eben: i'd love it
11:10 eben Or, would a shortcut such as ctrl-space (usually spacebar is used for this grabbing operation in applications) work as a system-wide scrolling modifier?
11:11 marcopg eben: I'm a little unconvinced the button is a good solution on all hardware
11:11 eben And, can we detect and/or make use of the multi-touch events for scrolling on hardware that supports it?
11:11 marcopg if nothing else it will be useful on laptops where you can click and drag
11:11 eben That would be ideal, honestly.
11:11 marcopg s/useful/useless
11:12 eben Perhaps someone in the community could look into making use of scrolling mechanisms on standard hardware...
11:12 icarito eben: i agree with marcopg, its not a very conventional gesture, its fine, but bigger scrollbars i would love too
11:12 marcopg eben: I guess I just see little interest by anyone to work on this feature :)
11:12 eben do non-Mac laptops have gesture scrolling, or no?
11:12 marcopg eben: they don't afaik
11:12 eben hmm, ok.
11:13 marcopg well mine doesn't :)
11:13 eben So I'll think about adjusting scrollbar design, and I'll whine at OLPC about the grab key.
11:13 next...
11:13 #topic i18n
11:13 Anything here for design?
11:13 marcopg hopefully this can all be handled by olpc
11:14 since it's in the deployability list
11:14 eben ok
11:14 marcopg (with help of the community obviously...)
11:14 eben I'm going to skip collaboration since it's broad, and we also have a few points in teh list which identify specific features in that space...
11:14 #topic push to talk
11:14 marcopg only thing to say about general collab
11:14 eben Can someone give a one or two sentence description of this idea?
11:14 marcopg: sure
11:14 marcopg is that it'd better work for the next release ;)
11:14 eben marcopg: agreed!
11:15 Thanks, everyone, for this discussion; hopefully we can wrap up in another 30 minutes or so.  We're at an hour now since we began.
11:16 So, push-to-talk?  Anyone care to elaborate on the goal/plan?  Or are we skipping it?
11:16 It appears to have no owner at the moment.
11:16 tomeu no idea
11:16 it should be up for grabs
11:16 walter grab key :)
11:17 eben OK. Skipping until someone takes ownership, then.  I'm not sure exactly how it's seen that this will integrate, but that can wait until someone aspires to do the work.
11:17 #topic VNC/sared pointer
11:17 This is a very interesting space, and I have given it some thought already.
11:17 tomeu eben: you just need to invite scott for lunch
11:18 eben It has no owner, but I'm happy to relate my thoughts if people are interested.
11:18 marcopg is not particulary excited about that
11:18 eben marcopg: don't find it useful?
11:18 erikos has no clue what it means
11:18 marcopg I'd rather focus on easy, rich collaboration for activities
11:19 eben: might be useful, it just seem like a cheap solution which won't bring a lot of value though
11:19 but hey
11:19 I could be totally wrong :)
11:19 anyway scott and cjb seem on it
11:19 eben erikos: The general idea is that a) I can, for instance, select "View Simon's Screen" from the buddy menu, and then watch what you do.
11:19 walter I think it is as much a market feature--expected by teachers
11:19 but rarely used
11:19 eben And b) It would be possible to select "View activity" from a shared activity menu to view just that activity session
11:19 walter but on occasion useful
11:20 marcopg walter: sure I can see it in that sense, I'd not try to sell it as collaboration though
11:20 erikos eben: has this been requested from the field?
11:20 walter but if it were implemented on a Sugar-like basis it could be useful
11:20 eben Honestly, I think this could be a good answer in a number of situations, myself, but since a) few here are interested and b) there are interested parties who aren't here, we can skip it.
11:20 walter small groups showing each other how they did something
11:20 marcopg eben: sorry sorry
11:20 eben: I didn't mean to stop you :)
11:20 walter as opposed to the whole class following the leader
11:20 eben erikos: Not in those words.  But, for instance, teachers want to be able to guide kids through websites...
11:21 marcopg the others might be interested
11:21 just in bad mood today!
11:21 eben Or be in charge of scrolling through a book, so everyone is at the right spot.
11:21 walter In Chile, they did great work with this idea in groups fo four.
11:21 eben It would also be useful for showing other kids how to do things....tutoring...
11:21 erikos marcopg: go eat icecream then!
11:21 eben: ok i see
11:21 marcopg uff I went to Boston and didn't even eat my favorite ice cream
11:22 all tomeu fault, he only wants to go to fucking pubs
11:22 walter more of a tool for critique
11:22 eben An idea I had for extending the idea, which I briefly mentioned to Scott, was that anyone in a screen session should be able to take screenshots at any time, which get stored as a slideshow in the Journal as a record...
11:22 (Notice that I actually care less about the "shared pointer" idea....more about the ability to view someone's screen.)
11:22 Anyway...
11:22 erikos eben: i see it could be nice, but i *think* we have some areas that would need addressing first
11:22 walter here is a scenario:
11:22 caroline hi, sorry I'm late, is this the deployment meeting?
11:23 marcopg caroline: ooops
11:23 way late :)
11:23 caroline: it finished 1 h ago or so
11:23 walter teams of four work on a problem as individuals
11:23 eben walter: sure, go ahead; we'll move on after your example.
11:23 walter they then share their results among each other
11:23 marcopg caroline: this meeting is interesting too though, design/roadmap :)
11:23 walter they decide on one screen to share with the class.
11:23 tomeu there's the desktop recording activity as well
11:23 caroline ok thanks
11:23 walter the teacher then chooses from the groups which screens to discuss with the whole class
11:24 this is essentially the Chile model.
11:24 eben Good use case.  Another is the "watch a game" case...
11:24 This comes for free if you can watch /any/ activity...
11:24 walter it gets small discussions/debates going and then the teacher uses it to make a larger debate
11:24 That is much different from all eyes forward or I am going to look over your shoulder
11:25 eben shall we move on for now?
11:25 tomeu move++
11:25 walter forward 100
11:25 right 90
11:25 eben #topic journal sharing
11:26 This is something Scott has prototyped rather effectively, I think.
11:26 tomeu: I see your name here, though.
11:26 What's the plan here?
11:26 tomeu eben: scott is doing pull, I'm doing push
11:26 eben tomeu: I see, so this is push listed here.
11:26 tomeu I guess
11:26 eben I would prefer to call this "object transfer" then....
11:27 tomeu scott was there, so don't know why he didn't clarified
11:27 eben It's not really sharing the Journal...it's a per-object way to send things to others.
11:27 Oh oh...
11:27 You do call it "file sharing"
11:27 My mistake.
11:27 OK, we already have designs for this posted on the wiki (currently laptop.org wiki, but that's another topic)
11:28 So I think we can move right past this, unless you have any questions, tomeu.
11:29 gregoriov sorry to interrupt, I got cut off but I'm back briefly with a question
11:29 I think I saw someone working on NM interface
11:29 eben erikos was, I think.
11:29 marcopg gregoriov: yeah
11:29 gregoriov thanks
11:29 erikos gregoriov: yup i do
11:29 tomeu eben: no questions for now
11:30 eben #topic new collaboration features
11:30 Anyone know what this means?
11:30 It's unowned and, again, general
11:30 walter we had a long list of new features for individual activities that suggested a few generalized featrues
11:30 chat overlay, for example
11:31 eben Chat overlay is also listed here as an OS feature.
11:31 walter @tomeu: did that list get transcribed?
11:31 eben We can skip over activity-specific features for the purpose of this discussion.
11:31 But it would be good to see/publish that list.
11:32 tomeu walter: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Sugarc[…]oadmap_brainstorm
11:32 walter: oh, sorry
11:32 walter I think we had consensus that a per activity chat overlay is important
11:32 tomeu still need to transcribe it
11:32 walter is that in the UI spec?
11:32 tomeu not sure we can do most of what was in that list, though
11:32 eben walter: overlay chat?  We've done some preliminary designs.  But let's get to that when we hit it in the list, in a moment.
11:33 walter I think we want to publize the list to the community...
11:33 eben #topic file passing fallback
11:33 What does this mean?
11:34 tomeu walter: agreed
11:34 eben: I talked about
11:34 eben: if an activity has no support for collaboration, fallback to transferring the journal entry and autolaunch the activity on the other machine
11:34 eben tomeu: in what circumstance would that happen?
11:35 tomeu eben: if I share one activity that has no sharing support, it would get advertised anyway
11:35 eben tomeu: Oh....hmmm, I'm not sure that's a wise idea, actually.
11:36 tomeu eben: when other user clicks on the icon, the entry would be transferred and resumed
11:36 marcopg mmm
11:36 eben That conflates two separate ideas with the same interaction...it won't be clear what to expect.
11:36 Especialy since we plan on adding object transfer support this release.
11:37 What I could see, however, is a separate "send to" button/menu item, which does as you describe...
11:37 marcopg yeah not convinced about it either
11:37 tomeu eben: what you say is not entirely stupid
11:37 eben basically, a way to initiate an object transfer from the activity.
11:37 marcopg haha
11:37 tomeu oh, sounds good
11:37 eben Also, what you're really getting at is a way to "share objects" in the neighborhood....
11:38 tomeu also solves the issue of unexpectedly autolaunching the activity when the transfer ends
11:38 marcopg tomeu: just completely on crack, as usual
11:38 tomeu marcopg: right :p
11:38 eben This is something Christian and I both want to consider, but we think it has to be done carefully so that the distinction between shared activities and shared objects is clear.
11:38 Let's not confuse the two yet.
11:38 marcopg man these meetings are long
11:38 we need mel to make us respect time ;)
11:38 eben marcopg: sorry!  almost done.
11:39 marcopg eben: go go ;)
11:39 eben OK, tomeu, you and I can discuss further later.
11:39 #topic overlay chat.
11:39 marcopg I would quite like that
11:39 eben I agree that this is a highly requested, and highly valuable feature.
11:39 Everyone wants it.
11:39 marcopg esp since it's supposed to be easy
11:39 also
11:39 it was my idea :P
11:39 eben I'll work through my preliminary designs for this soon, and add it to the adenga for our next design meeting (12/4)
11:39 erikos didn't mister 'go' worked on it?
11:39 eben sound good?
11:39 marcopg (back in the days when eben didn't know about sugar)
11:40 erikos eben: yes sounds good to me
11:40 eben great
11:40 if anyone wants to ping me in person with thoughts on this, feel free.
11:40 tomeu eben: the proposal is to do something very simple, similar to the view source dialog
11:40 eben Otherwise, we'll discuss on 12/4
11:40 tomeu eben: and have chat embedded there
11:40 eben tomeu: OK.
11:41 I can come up with parallel "ideal" and "short term proposal" sketches.
11:41 tomeu not what was planned, but may be enough to get going
11:41 eben sure
11:41 #topic new activities.
11:41 marcopg eben: don't even bother with the ideal :P
11:41 eben I don't think we need to discuss this here.
11:41 But if anyone has ideas for, or is working on, new activities and wants design input, ping me.
11:42 OK.  Sugar apps in legacy environments we can skip.
11:42 marcopg thought we already discussed that
11:42 eben #topic UI adjustments for non XO hardware
11:42 marcopg ok
11:42 walter: what are you thinking about there?
11:42 eben marcopg: no, we discussed legacy apps in sugar environment....this is the other way around.
11:42 anyway.
11:42 marcopg clearly screen size
11:42 tomeu eben: I got an eeepc I can use to work on that
11:43 marcopg but also real UI changes?
11:43 eben Yes, that's a big one....fixing the behavior of widgets etc. on larger screens would be good.
11:43 tomeu eben: hope not so big
11:43 icarito also i want to pitch an idea here
11:43 eben Perhaps some conditional use of accelerators (F1-F4, for instance)
11:43 tomeu marcopg: maybe some stuff in device icons and control panel?
11:43 icarito i would very much like if it was possible to set a personalized background image and switch colors on non XO hardware
11:44 eben The requested "logout" option might only apply to non XOs as well.
11:44 tomeu yeah
11:44 icarito perhaps contrast and brightness could be adjusted
11:44 tomeu icarito: only on non-xo?
11:44 icarito so as to not really interfere with usability
11:44 erikos marcopg: we have to fix the font size as well
11:44 marcopg tomeu: yeah
11:44 icarito tomeu: on xo it makes sense because of the reflective screen
11:44 marcopg just wondering if walter has something in mind other than the reported bugs
11:44 but looks like he went back coding :)
11:45 eben icarito: At the moment, I think I'm leaving the background request up to a hacker somewhere; though we'll consider personalization ideas moving forward with designs.
11:45 icarito eben: i might work on this a little bit
11:45 tomeu icarito: agreed
11:46 icarito but cant promise anything
11:46 i would love to offer a pretty sugar for computer labs
11:46 eyecandy goes a long way
11:46 eben icarito: You claim our Sugar isn't pretty as is? :(
11:46 walter sorry I had to step away for a minute...
11:47 icarito eben: its gorgeous - only a bit plain on regular monitors
11:47 eben icarito: heh.
11:47 walter I think there are some usability issues with the lack of a journal key and a frame key on non-XO systems
11:47 icarito candy is made out of sugar
11:47 walter CTRL-F is not very convenient
11:47 eben walter: true
11:47 do you have better sugestions?
11:47 walter And I do not know the shortcut for the Journal
11:47 marcopg eben: find solutions!
11:48 eben Should we use more function keys?  F12?
11:48 (map it, positionally, to the XO keyboard)
11:48 It's not any more discoverable, of course...
11:48 walter I end up alt-tabbing to get to the Journal...
11:48 I wish it were available in the cirlce
11:48 the Frame--I use the corner a lot more.
11:49 But there are some bugs that make it annoying.
11:49 eben walter: You never use the Frame to reach the Journal?
11:49 (I'm not sure why having it in Home would help, actually)
11:49 walter Rarely--yet another step.
11:49 marcopg walter: bugs? what is that? ;)
11:49 eben Not "yet another"....just "a different" step.
11:49 walter Lot of times I get a stack of hover menus when I call up the frame
11:50 Eben: I disagree.
11:50 marcopg walter: ticket please :) if you have a way to repro would be great
11:50 erikos walter: we fixed this i think
11:50 eben walter: how so?
11:50 walter alt-tab is available on the keyboard.
11:50 erikos walter: do you use latest sugar?
11:50 eben Sure, so is the frame.
11:50 walter the frame is too, but then I need to mouse over to the Journal
11:50 marcopg eben: well the frame are two steps
11:50 walter I am a bit behind in my jhbuild.
11:50 marcopg 1 go to corner 2 go to journal 3 click on it
11:51 they are 3 actually
11:51 eben Sure, short of a shortcut for the Journal itself, it's always at least 2 steps.
11:51 That I can agree with.
11:51 walter IMousing is harder for me than typing
11:51 icarito +1 especiallly on xo hardware
11:51 walter repeating the same step over and over is easy
11:51 erikos walter: the bug i mean - is that palettes stay up in the left corner for some time and get stuck
11:51 eben So perhaps we need to give more thought to accelerators, both on XO and on other hardware.
11:51 walter erikos: yes
11:51 marcopg yeah crappy touchpad doesn't help
11:52 walter touchpad == crappy in my experience (on all hardware)
11:52 eben Anything apart from efficiency of access to these common spaces?
11:52 marcopg I'm happy with my thinkpad one but I'm sure it's very subjective
11:52 walter No, but that is a big one.
11:52 erikos walter: http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=su[…]00316f83c0374a085
11:52 marcopg the xo one is unsubjectively bad though ;)
11:52 erikos walter: that was the fix for that
11:52 walter (I disabled mine n the thinkpad--just used the stick)
11:53 erikos: I will try it.
11:53 eben OK, it looks like we can wrap up, then.
11:53 erikos walter: great - otherwise please file at d.s.o :)
11:53 eben Any closing comments?
11:53 marcopg nice meeting!
11:53 thanks!
11:53 walter Sugar rocks!!
11:53 erikos eben: i have a few design issues in my NM work
11:53 tomeu party!
11:53 erikos eben: but those we can discus offline
11:53 eben Thanks everyone for participating!
11:53 marcopg Sugar people rocks!!
11:54 eben erikos: ok, we can chat after the meeting.
11:54 erikos eben: yup yup
11:54 eben We'll have our next meting right here on December 4th.
11:54 erikos eben: where was christian?
11:54 marcopg eben: you need to stop the bot btw
11:54 bad christian yeah
11:54 and no t-shirts yet!
11:54 eben erikos: He thought it was tomorrow.
11:54 marcopg eeek
11:54 eben I'll point him to logs...
11:54 incidentally, where are the logs found?
11:55 erikos the bot does tell you
11:55 marcopg meeting.sugarlabs.org
11:55 despite what the bot tells you
11:55 erikos the bot does tell you!
11:55 eben #endmeeting

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