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#sugar-meeting, 2008-11-13

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
09:45 erikos marcopg: i pretended to be a bot for a while
09:45 marcopg damn now I'm the chair!
09:46 #ACTION  tomeu to write a proposal for paris workshop people to work on further sugarizing labyrinth
09:46 dsd_ are there existing presentations i can steal from?
09:46 to give an overview of the sugar architecture?
09:46 bastien asked for that
09:46 erikos dsd_: it all looks like an omelette
09:46 so you could show a picture of that
09:46 dsd_: french people will like the cuisine approach
09:47 tomeu erikos swallowed a clown this morning, clearly
09:47 dsd_ hehe
09:47 tomeu erikos: someone posted an ascii diagram this week
09:47 erikos tomeu: oh - to sugar?
09:48 tomeu yeah, let me find it
09:49 http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/002497.html
09:49 but sugar is a black box there
09:49 dsd_ thats useful
09:50 erikos we could extend the sugar part
09:50 like a zoom in
09:50 tomeu I personally think we have a quite "crisp" architecture inside the shell
09:50 dsd_ that would be cool
09:50 since i dont really know myself
09:50 tomeu frame, desktop window, journal, model
09:51 erikos extensions
09:51 tomeu and inside the desktop window: home view, groups view and neighborhood view
09:51 oh, and control panel
09:51 we have extension points for control panel modules, keybindings and device icons in the frame
09:51 someone should do a nice diagram out of it ;)
09:52 erikos since tomeu has an action item already i will do that
09:52 marcopg: can you add it?
09:52 marcopg you can too
09:52 Gregorio two suggestions: mention the datastore/journal and give out the sugar API documentation links (if anyone has them)
09:52 marcopg think the bot listen to everyone
09:53 erikos #ACtION ascii art of sugar architecture
09:53 #ACTION erikos: ascii art of sugar architecture
09:53 tomeu heh
09:53 maybe listens only to the sofa?
09:53 I mean the chair
09:54 Gregorio: the sugar almanac is quite good
09:54 erikos hehe they eat clowns for breakfast in prague as well
09:54 tomeu misses the mediamods guys
09:54 dsd_ can someone link to the best doc for writing activities/
09:55 is that the almanac?
09:55 tomeu the almanac is more a reference
09:55 I think we have a hello world somewhere
09:56 erikos hellomesh we have
09:56 marcopg tomeu: I invited erikb to Sugarcamp, didn't hear back though
09:57 tomeu oh, a pity
09:57 dsd_ where can i find hello world?
09:57 or shall i just stick with hello mesh?
09:57 marcopg well I just sent yesterday night
09:57 there might be hope still ;)
09:58 my edit-activity is a pretty decent hello world, but it doesn't have collab
09:58 only journal and base activity stuff
09:58 (also it doesn't say hello world anywhere :P)
09:58 tomeu http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_tutorial
09:58 dsd_ what does edit-activity do?
09:58 tomeu looks quite good
09:58 dsd_: just embeds a gtk.textview
09:59 dsd_ tomeu: and that is up to date?
09:59 that MANIFEST stuff looks wrong? i dont think i've ever done that
10:00 tomeu dsd_: not sure how up to date is, but the manifest changes shouldn't have broken compatibility
10:00 dsd_ it says you have to run: find . -type f | sed 's,^./,,g' > MANIFEST
10:00 marcopg huh
10:00 dsd_ anyhow.. edit-activity .. wheres the source for that?
10:00 if it just embeds a single simple widget it sounds good
10:00 marcopg bundlebuilder generate the manifest itself now
10:01 dsd_ ok -- this is my concern, every time i find one of these "how to write an activity" thing i run into problems because the material is out of date
10:01 marcopg will put it on gitorious
10:01 minute
10:01 eben notes that (lack of) daylight savings time has made it surprisingly difficult for him to make the Sugar meetings...
10:01 tomeu dsd_: breaking things takes too much time for also updating the docs :p
10:02 eben: should I talk with obama about it?
10:02 eben tomeu:  he heh
10:02 tomeu he being a disguised european, may be willing to set your clocks to a time closer to normal
10:04 marcopg dsd_: http://gitorious.org/projects/sugar-edit-activity
10:04 Gregorio btw not sure what this meeting is but I have a write issue I'd like to mention if there is a good time to ask about it
10:05 marcopg hehe /me need better agendas ;)
10:05 tomeu Gregorio: it's the weekly sugar developers meeting, I think we have already gone through all the agenda items
10:05 marcopg Gregorio: we don't have a very clear agenda, so feel free to mention your issue :)
10:05 dsd_ thanks
10:06 can i suggest an action item for someone? go through the Activity_tutorial on 8.2
10:06 try it out
10:06 fix anything bad like the MANIFEST stuff
10:06 shouldnt take too long
10:06 then i can be like "hey this stuff is DOCUMENTED!"
10:06 erikos marcopg: we had a strong agenda!
10:07 marcopg erikos: huh hoh sorry, I missed it then :)
10:07 dsd_ also, if the interest is more in the platform than in activities, did anyone come up with good getting started bugs to work on?
10:07 erikos marcopg: ;p
10:07 dsd_: lets see if you can find out what system the people use
10:08 dsd_: you can cc us in a discussion with lionel for example
10:08 dsd_ what do you mean by system?
10:08 erikos dsd_: xo or ubuntu/fedora
10:08 dsd_ oh, probably mandriva
10:08 erikos oh right
10:09 dsd_ i will ask bastien to make some livecds
10:09 erm
10:09 fedora install cds
10:09 erikos mandriva is fine :) but i think it would make sense to work on those issues then
10:09 dsd_ which?
10:10 erikos dsd_: do we have sugar packages for mandriva?
10:10 dsd_ no idea
10:10 you are the sugar developers :P
10:10 tomeu hmm, if there are non-coder techies there, they could work in improving the sugar experience in mandriva
10:11 dsd_: not packagers :p
10:11 marcopg don't know about mandriva packages
10:11 tomeu mandriva may be the largest distro without known packages
10:12 dsd_ ok, thats another possibility then
10:12 erikos i thought there was once an interest in sugar on mandriva
10:12 dsd_ i think some mandriva people were specifically invited
10:12 tomeu awesome
10:12 dsd_ lionel replied btw, he cant make it here
10:12 erikos dsd_: i would say to make an email thread about the camp and follow up on these questions
10:13 dsd_ because irc is blocked at his company
10:13 i will send him these logs and see if he has anything to add
10:14 erikos cc us if you want so we can react quickly
10:16 Gregorio time for a Write question?
10:16 marcopg Gregorio: sure
10:16 Gregorio thanks
10:16 marcopg (not sure we have write experts here, but we can try!)
10:16 Gregorio Paraguay reported a bug in Write with 8.2: http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8972
10:17 they are doing some final qualification testing and I think they plan to deploy 4K or so XOs after the first of the year
10:17 erikos (btw i think that's it with the agenda - thanks everyone for joining in)
10:17 Gregorio they do great test work and I would like to be responsive to their needs (especially if we can help without rolling a new version of the XO to 8.2.1)
10:18 who should i assign that bug to? can anyone help look at it for Paraguay?
10:18 tomeu Gregorio: sounds like OOM to me
10:19 Gregorio bummer...
10:19 I think rgs1 on the CC is Raul fro Ascuncion
10:19 tomeu Gregorio: abiword developers martin sevior and marc maurer are sympathetic to our cause
10:19 Gregorio do you want to reply with some suggestions re: gathering logs etc
10:20 I want to show some movement and attention to their needs if we can
10:20 tomeu Gregorio: we could verify it's oom by asking them to monitor memory usage before they expect to crash
10:20 Gregorio maybe we can't fix it but hopefully we can teach them how to help file bugs, diagnose things and in general build a better relationship
10:20 if you can comment on the bug that would be great
10:21 tomeu Gregorio: sounds good, I guess kim's team is working with htem?
10:21 Gregorio do you mind if I keep it assigned to you?
10:21 good question
10:21 yes Reuben si on it
10:21 tomeu Gregorio: would be good if the support team was able to ask for this info
10:21 and process it to some extent
10:21 Gregorio let me send one e-mail confirming that Kim wants to work this via trac
10:22 I'll make it more general, but I could use an engineer as the point person
10:22 tomeu I think it would be better for the longer term if I talk with reuben about it and he handles the issue
10:22 Gregorio my default as the easiest guy to work with is Tomeu :-)
10:22 but let me know if should be someone else
10:22 tomeu needs to learn to hide better
10:22 Gregorio its Tomeu now that Dan is out of shouting distance from my desk :-)
10:22 dsd_ sorry tomeu :P
10:23 tomeu heh, I'm doomed
10:23 Gregorio seriously, is their a write maintainer?
10:23 there
10:23 marcopg Gregorio: not exactly
10:23 dsd_ sort of
10:23 tomeu Gregorio: OLPC used to contract Marc
10:23 erikos dsd_: oh who?
10:23 marcopg many activities doesn't have active maintainers
10:23 tomeu but then the contract ended
10:23 dsd_ marc..
10:23 he did a bit of work on it in the run up to 8.2
10:23 erikos well....
10:24 Gregorio is there a victim (oops I mean volunteer) who can help with this one?
10:24 marcopg Gregorio: probably only the abiword people
10:24 no one else have a lot of experience with abiword
10:24 tomeu Gregorio: olpc should be able to interact with the upstream projects in order to get their help
10:24 Gregorio I can work with Martin S. myself but I would feel better if I had a guide in our own engineering group....
10:25 we are OLPC, right?
10:25 tomeu Gregorio: sure, but I mean the whole org
10:25 erikos Gregorio: so i think - we do not have a maintainer for it - a volunteer that sometimes might fix something yes
10:25 tomeu Gregorio: not only the developers
10:25 Gregorio just kidding, get that clown guy back on the chat
10:25 tomeu Gregorio: the upstream projects have also QA teams, translators, etc
10:25 Gregorio last try, I'm asking for help solving this real deployment problem
10:26 I can hunt down Martin S ask Reuben to tell them how to capture logs, etc
10:26 tomeu Gregorio: if only olpc devs interact with upstream devs, we lose most of the game there
10:26 Gregorio if anyone else with technical chops and experience in this area can help that would be great
10:26 tomeu Gregorio: the QA team knows how to see if it's a memory problem, they should check that first of all
10:27 dsd_ Gregorio: you may be able to find someone else to do the preliminary work. find someone to reproduce it, and confirm that it is reproducible. attach an affected file to that bug. try with 8.1, etc
10:27 tomeu Gregorio: if they see that it's Write growing out of proportion, then we have something concrete we can show to the abiword developers
10:27 Gregorio: abiword has a bugzilla instance, we should create a bug there
10:27 Gregorio OK, thanks for your time, I'll leave Tomeu on the CC if that's OK and you can comment when you like (or not)
10:27 tomeu Gregorio: then we can ask personally to martin and marc if any of them could look at it
10:28 Gregorio: ok, will write there what I said
10:28 Gregorio lots of suggestions but no volunteers to help get it done... :-( I'll open a thread with Kim and Reuben to see what we can do, thanks
10:29 dsd_ Gregorio: many people are capable of doing the simple things i listed
10:29 marcopg Gregorio: my understanding is that Tomeu is volountering
10:29 dsd_ is frances still in contract? she might be interested
10:29 Gregorio: you could even do it yourself ;)
10:29 Gregorio I knew he was too nice to say no :-) I'm on it and I'll keep Tomeu in the loop, thanks!
10:29 tomeu Gregorio: put me in CC and I'll give instructions to the support team
10:30 Gregorio: just wanted to raise the point that if OLPC has a support team and wants to ship FOSS software without paying checks monthly to upstream developers, then OLPC needs to, as an organization, institutionalize ways to successfully interact with those projects
10:30 just taking the first developer that happens to be there won't scale
10:30 someone at 1cc should give to it a bit of thought
10:31 Gregorio that's good, I didn't mean to get testy. I met Raul and he's sharp and on the ground at a real deployment so I hope we can help make him successful. It will pay off big with more engineers and feedback from South America by early next year!
10:31 tomeu Gregorio: well, deployments should also learn to deal with upstream projects :p
10:31 marcopg tomeu: that's probably a long term hope ;)
10:32 tomeu sure, but we should start one day ;)
10:32 Gregorio I'll try to teach him as best I can, I've exchanged e-mails with Marc and Martin S, hopefully we can figure it out. No definite action items for anyone here but me. Advice still welcome.
10:32 dsd_ heh, we need to send tomeu to a deployment ;)
10:33 Gregorio I'm backing slowly out of the room now. I have to create a presentation for support gang
10:33 ttyl
10:33 tomeu dsd_: no need, I can just write blurbs in trac ;)
10:34 marcopg Gregorio: this is something we should discuss at Sugarcamp btw
10:34 i.e. how to properly escalate problems to upstream processes, ensure they stay involved as much as we can etc
10:35 tomeu oops
10:35 reuben already reassigned the ticket to me 2 days ago
10:35 heh
10:36 Gregorio: we can talk about bossed whenever you want
10:36 Gregorio he asked me first and I suggested you, but I'll figure out how to get it to Marc or Martin S. if that's what we need
10:37 that's why I'm hear to check and I think I have my answer
10:37 marcopg I think it's good that an OLPC employee owns the ticket actually
10:37 community developers can't be hold accountable for our deployment problems
10:38 tomeu Gregorio: first step is to see if there' memory pressure and which process is causing it, then we'll better know who should own it
10:39 marcopg (but whoever owns the ticket should work with upstream obviously...)
10:39 tomeu I think that support should be able to do some of these tests to better triage
10:39 Gregorio I think I got it, I'll keep Tomeu in the loop, run it by Reuben and Kim, ask for more info from the customer, then get it to AbiWord if we have a real and reproducible problem
10:40 marcopg Gregorio: sounds like a good plan!
10:40 Gregorio shouldn't be more than 15 e-mails and three phone call, no problem :-)
10:40 just kidding, I'm on it, thanks for your help
10:40 marcopg heh hopefully it will require less once we start working like that for more tickets ;)
10:50 tomeu erikos: some examples for the diagram:
10:50 http://linuxdevices.com/files/[…]mae-arch-diag.gif
10:50 http://arstechnica.com/news.me[…]limo_platform.png
10:50 http://www.access-company.com/[…]chitecture_en.gif
10:50 http://inkscape.org/doc/architecture.png
10:50 http://weblog.infoworld.com/te[…]chitecture_Sm.gif
10:51 erikos: just make sure it looks as much as possible to a fried egg
10:51 erikos tomeu: :)
10:51 tomeu that's our architectural goal
10:53 marcopg is the meeting done?
10:54 erikos yes
10:54 marcopg #stopmeeting
10:56 ooops
10:56 #endmeeting

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