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#sugar-meeting, 2008-11-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
10:07 tomeu1 cool!
10:07 Gregorio2 I'm listening between e-mails, just noticed this meeting anouncement and thought I would sit in on a slow day at the office
10:07 dfarning_ #topic Introduction
10:08 #topic
10:08 hey Gregorio2
10:08 #TOPIC introductions
10:09 #TOPIC
10:10 hey, I thought the bot would respond the #topic somehow
10:11 As far as introductions, I am known most places as david or dfarning
10:11 I work mostly on operations and community stuff
10:12 anyone else?
10:13 ok, onto the next topic
10:13 #topic - wiki needs assessment
10:15 last week, gregdek pointed out a number of issues with our wiki:(
10:15 gregdek Oh, no frowny faces.  It's all good!
10:15 Everything evolves.  :)
10:16 dfarning_ Over the week end we start looking at many of those problems
10:17 the biggest issue seems to be lack of ownership and maintenance of the teams wiki space.
10:19 The lack of active maintenance reflect a lack of activity on the team.
10:19 gregdek Yep.
10:19 (Who all is around, btw?)
10:19 dfarning_ gregdek: tomeu1 and Gregorio2
10:19 small start
10:20 gregdek Mighty oaks from tiny acorns grow.  ;)
10:20 tomeu1 small seed...
10:20 right ;)
10:21 dfarning_ A question for gregdek.  How do we increase team participation?
10:21 gregdek Beg.  :)
10:21 Seriously, though: it depends.
10:22 It starts with a strong leader, and the feeling of *stability*.
10:22 People are more likely, in my experience, to come to a meeting if they know it's going to happen every week, and if they are expected to be there and accomplish something.
10:22 Gregorio2 IMHO the e-mail from Greg D on how to create a team was great!
10:22 gregdek If a team is three people but consistently operates as a strong team, their team has a good chance of growing.
10:23 dfarning_ How do we find those leaders.  All of the people raising their hands are already over booked.
10:23 gregdek Good point.
10:23 That's a tough one.
10:23 Which is why I'm currently focusing on marketing.
10:23 I think there aren't enough people who know about Sugar and are psyched about it.
10:24 And if that means that some of our teams are just put into mothballs for now for lack of resources, so be it.
10:24 dfarning_ which teams should we mothball?
10:24 gregdek I think it's crucially important to do a few things well, rather than a bunch of things poorly.
10:24 Well...
10:24 looks.
10:25 Accessibility looks completely barren.
10:25 (The URL is even misspelled.)
10:25 dfarning_ build, localization, translation are also weak
10:25 gregdek Build could be rolled into engineering, I think -- tomeu1?
10:26 tomeu1 engineering is a team?
10:26 dfarning_ If we kill the teams.  How do we express that these are areas the need help now or in the future?
10:26 gregdek Development, rather.  :)
10:26 tomeu1 hmm
10:26 gregdek dfarning_: A good question.
10:27 tomeu1 it's something between deployment and development
10:27 gregdek thinks.
10:27 dfarning_ deployment has take off since Sugar started shipping on distros:)
10:28 tomeu1 for now, given who are doing builds, maybe build can be put into development
10:28 and later spun off
10:28 gregdek Yeah.
10:28 tomeu1 if lots of distro people get into the deployment team, then we can move builds to there
10:28 gregdek My guess is that if a role continues to be obvious, it can always be spun off later.
10:29 tomeu1 making sure that sugar is well packaged in distros is a very important task for SL
10:29 gregdek So translation and localization...
10:29 tomeu1: Yes, indeed.
10:29 tomeu1 though should be the distros themselves who do that
10:29 dfarning_ development is a better fit.  Deployment is focused on the stuff local people need to set up a deployment
10:30 gregdek My only question with Deployment at this point is, who's coordinating it?
10:30 dfarning_ gregdek: walter is
10:30 gregdek Well, and what are the goals of the Deployment team itself?  To provide local deployments with whatever direction they need?
10:31 dfarning_ gregdek: yes, I believe so.
10:31 gregdek The mission of the Deployment Team is to voice the needs of Sugar deployments to the Sugar community, to find ways to support those needs, and to organize forums for the exchange of experiences between Sugar users and Sugar developers.
10:31 OK.  Pretty strong.
10:32 I think the Deployment pages could be better organized, but I'll leave that to Walter.
10:33 Do you think he'd have any objection if I edited the DeploymentTeam page to note that Walter is the coordinator?
10:33 dfarning_ the transition should go from development to deployment to schools.sugarlabs.org
10:34 gregdek: yes, him and some help from some good people on a colombia deployment
10:34 tomeu1 dirakx, I think
10:35 gregdek nods.
10:35 dfarning_ I think we can list walter as coordinator
10:35 gregdek Walter can delegate however he sees fit, but I think it's important to have one person accountable.
10:36 dfarning_ ok
10:36 dirakx dfarning_: tomeu1 yes .i think walter can be coordinator and delegate some task to me or others.
10:36 gregdek And if Walter chooses to hand that job to some other sucker, that's fine too.  :)
10:37 dfarning_ gregdek: what about education?
10:37 gregdek Perhaps dirakx may be the right coordinator at some point, since Walter has so many other duties...
10:37 goes to Education.
10:37 dfarning_ It is almost impossible to get that going.
10:38 dirakx gregdek: yes i'm up to that job. ;)
10:38 gregdek dirakx: Perhaps we should ask Walter to allow you to lead that team, then.  :)
10:38 dfarning_ Every time we find someone the -ism folks chase them off
10:38 gregdek takes a deep breath.
10:38 So.
10:39 dirakx gregdek: yep, np
10:39 dfarning_ dirakx: sounds good
10:39 gregdek If you can't state the mission of your team in two concise, *actionable* sentences, then you're not much good as a team.  My take.
10:39 dirakx dfarning_: ok
10:39 gregdek What's the goal of the Education team?
10:40 dfarning_ I don't know, My background in education is very weak
10:41 I am looking at it as the place to engage teachers in using the platform effectively.
10:41 gregdek :)
10:41 See, that makes sense to me.
10:42 dirakx me too i think it's a place to discuss with teachers-
10:42 gregdek How do we drive that?
10:42 dirakx i tried to engage professors at uruguay to complement it..but no luck yet.
10:43 gregdek So what are we asking teachers to do?
10:43 Let's say we set up the Education team.
10:43 tomeu1 has been asked by a teacher in uruguay for help in maintaining a min-mapping activity
10:43 gregdek And we advertise the hell out of it, and a hundred teachers show up.
10:43 What are we asking them to do?
10:43 dfarning_ teams for swartmore, uw madison are going to start working on the s.s.o moodle
10:43 walter hello all...
10:43 gregdek Oooh, that's good.
10:43 Hey walter.  :)
10:44 dfarning_ walter: hello
10:44 dirakx tomeu1: thx for sugarizing labyrinth btw.;)
10:44 dfarning_ we are just talking about how to bring the education team to life
10:44 dirakx walter: hello
10:44 walter it is an education project, after all...
10:44 dfarning_ specifically how to engage teachers and what we want they to do
10:44 gregdek Building and maintaining a killer moodle instance is a good, actionable goal.
10:45 walter We need to get the OLPC-Sur folks involved beyond their mailing list...
10:45 gregdek walter: Do you have a url for their list archive?
10:45 walter They are mostly educators and are really beginning to show leadership.
10:45 dfarning_ nice
10:45 tomeu1 dirakx: just a start, let's see if Paola takes it further
10:45 walter http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-sur/
10:46 gregdek Ah si.
10:47 dirakx olpc-sur ++
10:47 gregdek Great list.  Great activity.
10:47 So what would the Education team do that, say, the Deployment team does not do?
10:48 dirakx i wish we had other lists of that kind
10:48 gregdek dirakx: Perhaps we could.  :)
10:48 dfarning_ Education works on creating the leasson plans and teacher education materials?
10:48 walter not sure they shouldn't be joined at the hip, but the education team, IMHO, would be more focused on theory and the deployment team on practice
10:48 the education team would be advocating why Sugar and the deployment team how Sugar
10:49 dfarning_ walter: that make sense
10:49 dirakx gregdek: yep..i think with time..
10:49 marcopg "why Sugar" seems to overlap with marketing?
10:49 walter the education team would make sure that the deployments didn't stray too far from the learning mission
10:49 dirakx walter: agree
10:49 gregdek And what does the education team do in that regard?
10:49 walter The Venn diagram is quite complex...
10:50 gregdek Here's my point:
10:50 walter I think that Bill Kerr is a good one to keep a good dialog going re the Why
10:50 gregdek It's much simpler to recruit volunteers to do simple, comprehensible things.
10:50 walter and an education team can serve as a resource to marketing and deployment
10:51 we need to develop a clear set of why Sugar resources--is that not a comprehensible thing?
10:51 gregdek Yes.
10:51 That makes sense.
10:51 walter (just like we need to beef up the how Sugar resources as well)
10:52 gregdek So the Education team is responsible for developing collateral to sell the benefits of Sugar.  Yes?
10:52 Who can lead that team?
10:52 walter I am sorry I came late, but it seems to me that the wiki needs to be able to answer both questions to a variety of audiences
10:52 ministers and administrators, teachers and parents, kids and hackers
10:53 I nominate Bill (as I did in the DML proposal)... he has a good network of educators to tap as well.
10:53 dfarning_ walter would you mind shifting your efforts to the education team and dirakx can step up with the deployment team
10:53 walter I could do that...
10:53 gregdek Would Bill welcome your nomination?  :)
10:54 walter I can ask...
10:54 dirakx compromises to lead deployment then if walter agrees.
10:54 walter There are other people who would be great to bring on board: Juliano, for example.
10:55 And to get some of the education folks from the deployments more involved, like Maria in Peru, would help.
10:55 dfarning_ There is a lot of latent interest on the education side, no one seems able to grab a hold a get started
10:55 walter I had the same problem at OLPC.
10:56 We need someone who is a good communicator, which is one of Bill Kerr's strengths...
10:56 marcopg Caroline could also help with it?
10:56 walter Yes, Carolyn too.
10:56 dfarning_ once we have a framework caroline will be great
10:57 walter Maybe it really is time to make a 3-circle Venn diagram for Sugar Labs.
10:57 marcopg I guess the action item is to check with Bill if he wants to do it, then
10:57 there are several good people he can involved
10:57 walter Education, Technology, and Outreach being the main circles?
10:57 marcopg but having someone lead the effort will help bringing things forward
10:58 walter and in the seams, deployment, marketing, release?
10:58 gregdek I don't know so much about Venn diagrams.  I know about actionable goals and leaders.  :)
10:58 walter Or is deployment in the overlap of all three...
10:58 I agree, but having a structure helps people define clear goals that are more focused
10:59 gregdek Sure.
10:59 dfarning_ yes, It also fit the mission, vision, values theme
10:59 walter I think the fact that we don't know the difference between education and deployment suggests we don't have the level of clarity of goal yet to go forward.
11:00 gregdek Then having defined teams for Education and Deployment was probably a bit hasty.  :)
11:00 Or, alternately:
11:00 walter One of Greg's action item is for each team  is a mission statement.
11:01 Let's pull all these mission statements together on one page so we can see how it all fits together
11:01 gregdek Yep.
11:01 But here's the catch-22, and why I went from the leadership end first:
11:01 Who articulates these mission statements?
11:02 If it's us, then I guess we put together some straw men and get busy.  :)
11:02 marcopg it would be great to have the leaders articulate them
11:02 walter Yes, we need to prime the pump, but we already have a first pass: http://www.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs outlines the three circles...
11:02 gregdek This is perhaps an ideal session for next week.
11:02 _bernie crap, I _really_ missed the meeting :-(
11:02 dfarning_ ok, I'll make a page under community to collect the various team missions and how they fit into the overall mission
11:02 _bernie that was unintentional
11:02 walter and we have a first pass at missions for some of the teams already
11:03 dirakx _bernie: you have to get up earlier. ;).
11:03 marcopg we should send out email remainders just before starting the meetings
11:03 walter a bit of wiki include magic could make a quick strawman that could be used for the next discussion
11:03 marcopg and perhaps pinging #sugar too
11:03 tomeu1 loved how xobot announced the meetings
11:03 gregdek Do we have an uberbot that can handle logging/reminders/agendas/etc.?
11:04 marcopg our bot handles logging
11:04 can also log actions and similar stuff
11:05 don't think he can send out reminders though
11:05 dfarning_ with regard to to clearly communicating mission... that would be Walter:)
11:05 marcopg http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
11:07 dfarning_ so for next week should each leam leader start draft a team mission statement
11:07 _bernie dirakx: I'm a geek, Jim, not a white collar, damn it!
11:07 dfarning_ which we can discuss in boston?
11:08 marcopg dfarning_: we need to find those leaders though :)
11:08 some of the teams are not really owner
11:08 dirakx _bernie: haha..
11:08 walter I think to Greg's point, if a team is leaderless, it is useless...
11:08 marcopg I agree
11:08 let's delete the teams without a leader ;)
11:09 dfarning_ accessibility -> prune
11:09 walter So we need to find leadership or not expect to accomplish those tasks.
11:09 marcopg we would better find one for Education, but I think we agreed to ask Bill?
11:09 walter +1
11:09 marcopg dfarning_: Build too
11:09 dfarning_ build -> prune
11:09 deployment -> dirakx
11:10 gregdek translation = wiki translation, right?
11:10 dirakx dfarning_: ok  :)
11:10 gregdek and localization = Sugar localization, right?
11:10 dfarning_ what about design? is eben up for it?
11:10 marcopg yup
11:11 gregdek Yay Eben!
11:11 marcopg gregdek: think so, but it's just a symlink to olpc right now :)
11:11 dfarning_ localization -> prune
11:11 gregdek So that brings up another question.
11:11 dfarning_ let oplc handle it for now
11:11 gregdek If we're symlinking an entire *team* to elsewhere, do we need a team at all?
11:12 worries about politics in cases like this...
11:12 marcopg imo, nope
11:12 localization -> prune
11:12 _bernie mchua: ciao!
11:12 marcopg hi mchua
11:12 dfarning_ hi mchua
11:12 dirakx mchua: greetings.
11:12 gregdek I get the feeling that there are some things we'd *like* for Sugar to "own", but we don't yet have the resources to make that feasible.
11:12 marcopg yeah localization is one of these
11:12 _bernie gregdek: right
11:13 gregdek: but I'm fine in taking one baby step at a time
11:13 gregdek Brilliant.
11:13 Then let's cut to the bone.
11:13 marcopg what about Documentation?
11:13 mchua hey folks! Just read the backlog; sorry I'm late. (This conversation sounds *great*, btw.)
11:13 _bernie marcopg: developer or end user?
11:14 I think we have good end-user documentation that needs more translations
11:14 marcopg oh and I want to merge Development and Release
11:14 _bernie but developer documentation is lacking.
11:14 gregdek mchua: Does activity testing belong under Sugar Labs or OLPC?  <evil grin>
11:14 marcopg _bernie: end user I think
11:14 Sugar labs!
11:14 _bernie dfarning_: are you still maintaining api.sugarlabs.org?
11:14 gregdek So let's back up...
11:14 ...who *owns* documentation?
11:14 _bernie Sometimes I feel we don't advertise these services enough on our wiki
11:15 dfarning_ I can restart it.
11:15 _bernie for example, few people know about planet.sugarlabs.org
11:15 marcopg Dave seem the one that did more work on it so far, but he owns something else right?
11:15 walter I've started a new page: http://www.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/Teams
11:15 _bernie dfarning_: I guess it can live on develer's machine for now
11:15 marcopg _bernie: felt the same about planet yesterday
11:16 gregdek waits for an answer to the ownership question.  :)
11:16 marcopg so no owner for Documentation?
11:16 _bernie marcopg: how about a prominent link to "User resources" and "Developer Resources" in our main page?
11:17 pushes dfarning forward
11:17 marcopg _bernie: sounds like one click too far, planet should be one of the few links on the first page imo
11:17 _bernie: I'd like to have a much simpler first page :/
11:17 _bernie marcopg: yes, but our main page is _way_ too crowded already
11:17 dirakx in favor of discussion could be one person lead two teams?
11:17 _bernie we need to reorg it for simplicity
11:17 marcopg _bernie: yeah, we need to redesign it
11:17 dirakx s/could/can
11:18 mchua gregdek: XO-specific testing belongs under OLPC. Activity testing in general belongs in SL.
11:18 _bernie let's make it essential, web2.0-style
11:18 dfarning_ ok, I'll take documentation too
11:18 mchua gregdek: My great hope is to migrate this. ;) So if you have your Fedora testers rarin' to go on Activities...
11:18 marcopg yay!
11:18 dirakx :)
11:18 gregdek mchua: We'll get there.  :)
11:18 _bernie I would drop the translation box, or make it shrink, or move it to the bottom
11:18 mchua would love to help lead one of these teams, but is pretty hosed atm.
11:19 gregdek WHO OWNS DOCUMENTATION?  (Did I miss it?)
11:19 mchua dfarning_!
11:19 marcopg mchua: you could peer testing :)
11:19 gregdek: yeah you did
11:19 gregdek Oh.
11:19 _bernie pushes dfarning again
11:19 dfarning_ dirakx: yes, we are currently a bit short of people crazy enough to make the commitment
11:19 gregdek I did miss it!  LOL.
11:19 _bernie kicks dfarning
11:19 dirakx dfarning_: ok ;)
11:19 dfarning_ yes, I will, thanks _bernie
11:20 _bernie ;-)
11:20 tomeu1 heh
11:20 gregdek Oh, and by the way...
11:20 ...which actual meeting are we in?
11:20 I just wandered in at 10:05 and discovered a meeting happening.  Is that bad?  :)
11:20 mchua too
11:20 marcopg who owns testing?
11:20 dfarning_ gregdek: wikiteam
11:20 gregdek mchua.
11:20 marcopg heheh
11:20 gregdek: wiki meeting
11:21 gregdek OK.  Seems to have become a governance meeting.  :)
11:21 dfarning_ does simon have time for testing with mel, and caroline
11:21 marcopg dfarning_: yeah wonder if Simon would lead the team
11:21 mchua +1 to simon owning the SL testing team
11:21 marcopg he is not here, I can ask
11:21 gregdek So testing is... Sugar itself?
11:21 _bernie gregdek: this is what happens if we keep scheduling our meetings at geek-unfriendly times
11:22 gregdek _bernie: waah.  ;)
11:22 marcopg gregdek: sugar and activities
11:22 mchua I'm doing OLPC community test, and would rather have a separate SL team leader to work with, so as to do the upstream-downstream separating thing
11:22 Ooh, I could do Activity test, if Simon can do Sugar test.
11:22 gregdek _bernie: If you were a *real* geek, you wouldn't even have gone to sleep yet!
11:22 _bernie mchua: makes sense
11:22 mchua Arguably the two should be separate as well.
11:22 gregdek Yep.
11:22 marcopg erikos is coming
11:22 dfarning_ At least they are all at the same time
11:22 _bernie mchua: plus, I guess sugar QA testing should happen ~1 month before the olpc one.
11:23 mchua _bernie: YES
11:23 gregdek So... I guess that someone is updating the wiki with all these newfound leaders?
11:23 Are we actually creating new teams as well?
11:23 mchua hey erikos!
11:23 erikos hello
11:23 gregdek doesn't want to lose track of which teams we have.
11:23 _bernie integration test is usually done after each component passed qa individually... otherwise it's very painful.
11:23 opensource should be no exception
11:23 marcopg gregdek: where does the leaders go?
11:23 on the wiki that is
11:24 gregdek Undefined yet.  For me:
11:24 mchua dfarning_: ^^
11:24 gregdek Right on the first page.
11:24 http://sugarlabs.org/go/MarketingTeam
11:24 dfarning_ hey erikos how would you like to take charge of the sl testing team
11:24 gregdek Mission, Coordinator, Goals.
11:24 marcopg erikos: so people are fanboying you as Testing lead
11:24 gregdek: +1
11:24 gregdek Yay erikos!  Hurrah, erikos!  GO, TestingTeam, GO!
11:25 mchua erikos: I'd happily volunteer as your Activity Testing lieutenant.
11:25 marcopg should we turn that into a template or some wiki magic dfarning_?
11:25 erikos sure sounds fine with me
11:25 gregdek wanders afk briefly...
11:25 dfarning_ gregdek: the meetbot is logging.... so we won't lose anyones commitment
11:26 erikos hoped he would have advanced more until today on it already, but...:/
11:26 marcopg erikos: well we was blocked on infra
11:26 now we are no more ;
11:26 dfarning_ marcopg: I'll work on a template
11:26 marcopg awesome
11:26 and then we can extract leads from this log
11:27 erikos marcopg: sure that was some of my point ;p
11:27 mchua dfarning_: wiki documentation sprint when you come this weekend? I'd love to block out time to help with that, but don't have bandwidth right now
11:27 dfarning_ and, as we all know, IRC logs are binding
11:27 mchua: yes, sounds good
11:28 marcopg should we wrap up?
11:28 we are already 22 minutes late...
11:28 dfarning_ it looks like we have leaders for all of he teams we want to keep
11:28 _bernie dfarning_: the meeting bot should have some #action command too
11:28 marcopg dfarning_: you taking action to destroy the others?
11:28 _bernie dogi: we need you
11:28 marcopg dfarning_: I'll do the Release/Dev merge
11:29 _bernie: it does
11:29 #ACTION dfarning to kill teams we don't want to keep
11:29 _bernie marcopg: then please add action items for the things we said
11:29 marcopg (not sure if that's the right syntax :P)
11:29 _bernie marcopg: uh I guess dfarning needs to do it, he's the chair of this meeting
11:30 dfarning_ I won't destroy them,  Instead, I remove unneeded links and tag them as inactive]
11:30 marcopg let dfarning_ create actions
11:30 _bernie seems fair
11:30 dfarning_ in case some one wants to pick them up later
11:30 marcopg you just need to use #action
11:30 yeah
11:30 dfarning_ #action kill unneeded teams
11:31 marcopg action for mchua to publish her notes about running meetings :)
11:31 dfarning_ is there anything else to talk about
11:31 mchua marcopg: feel free to foward my email to you - I've got it on my todo list to finish the long spiel, and then shorten it. ;)
11:32 marcopg mchua: ok to forward to iaep?
11:32 cjb hola amigos
11:32 dirakx ck
11:32 Gregorio2 dirakx just checking in after being out for a while and noticed your comment: "we need more lists like sur" not sure what you are looking for but I can give you the background on how that was created and make some suggestions on how to do it again if you are interested
11:32 dirakx cjb: hola
11:32 cjb would love to see an English summary of sur each week
11:33 just "So-and-so discussed Foo and came to the conclusion that Bar" would be great
11:33 dfarning_ #endmeeting

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