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#publiclab, 2012-11-02

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
16:09 meeting Meeting started Fri Nov  2 16:09:03 2012 UTC. The chair is dogi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:09 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
16:09 warren dogi is super
16:09 dogi test
16:09 warren thank you!!
16:09 liz_ thanks Dogi!
16:09 dogi #topic test
16:09 #endmeeting
16:09 meeting Meeting ended Fri Nov  2 16:09:39 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:09 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/p[…]-02T16:09:03.html
16:09 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/p[…]12-11-02T16:09:03
16:09 Meeting started Fri Nov  2 16:09:57 2012 UTC. The chair is warren. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:09 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
16:10 warren #topic Scheduling
16:12 cfastie <cfastie!~cfastie@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
16:14 shaief warren: hi Jeff!
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16:24 warren hi shai.
16:25 we are all proposing sessions now.
16:26 Sampling: infrared camera discussion, IR Camera conversion session, barnstars session, starting a public lab chapter...
16:26 people are giving summaries of the sessions
16:27 Gonzoearth <Gonzoearth!~Gonzoeart@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
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16:29 shaief sounds like a great meeting :)
16:30 warren was very sad hagit couldn't make it.
16:30 shaief yes, it's sad
16:30 but maybe next year
16:30 or something
16:31 warren barnraising jerusalem!!! :-)
16:31 Gonzoearth Yeah!
16:31 mtoups <mtoups!~mtoups@oort.spicenitz.org> has joined #publiclab
16:31 shaief i'll be presenting our work in a panel next week in Ein Karem
16:31 liz_ Barnstars!!!
16:32 Gonzoearth BTW I've started work on Hagit's protest maps from last summer, I should be done later in the week
16:32 shaief the title of the panel is: "The Israeli space as a platform for competitive narratives"
16:32 thanks!
16:32 liz_ wow cool @shaif
16:32 @shaief
16:33 shaief :)
16:33 i just came back from flying a tiny Chinese butterfly kite
16:33 :)
16:33 have fun all of you!
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16:48 sara hello!
16:56 mtoups infinite boats!
16:57 warren tiny chinese butterfly kite? pics?
16:59 scheduling is done, to be posted shortly, and pizza is on the way.
17:00 geography76 <geography76!~geography@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
17:00 warren we will be canoeing after lunch, until 3pm, which will be the Indoor air quality and Hydrogen sulfide detection sessions
17:01 shaief i don't have pictures now, but i'll send when i'll get them
17:01 very cute one
17:11 sent
17:11 uggly photos - cool kite
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18:01 jywarren Schedule is now fairly complete: https://docs.google.com/spread[…]UkFxdWJrWGc#gid=0
18:01 We're starting short talks by Scott Eustis, Adam Griffith, and Shannon Dosemagen now
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18:02 jywarren and pic of schedule: http://t.co/1bZP63Od
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18:07 Hudonnoodles #topic Post Lunch Talk
18:07 Community Monitoring and Mapping Presentation by Shannon
18:07 warren_ <warren_!~warren@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
18:08 liz_ @gonzoearth @jeff -- how do people upload their images into sandy.hotosm.org
18:08 warren_ * intro to bucket brigades, which started with Global Community Monitor
18:08 liz_ hey
18:09 warren_ Shannon describes the bucket air grab tool for collecting air samples with the Bucket Brigades
18:09 ...low cost monitoring, media outreach, and legal challenges
18:10 Louisiana Environmental Action Network brought lots of people out during the BP oil spill in boats and to wetlands
18:10 But it still required a lab
18:10 and at Public Lab we've really tried to make the whole process more accessible and affordable
18:10 end-to-end
18:10 soil, seafood sampling, and an Ushahidi reporting map of oil issues
18:11 talking about ways to tweet, email, upload reports, images of oil
18:11 "Civic media and civic science meet"
18:11 Shannon passes it on to Adam Griffith and Scott Eustis
18:11 Adam: what are the benefits of wetlands? one answer per person
18:11 * storm mitigation
18:11 * habitat
18:11 * absorption of stuff. Heavy metals
18:12 * what stuff? carbon sequestration?
18:12 * make nutrients usable, break them down
18:12 * storm protection
18:12 * recreation, commercial fishing (multi-billion), tourism
18:13 * something else that has to do with water?
18:13 * mathew: water purification
18:13 * uptake of upstream nitrates
18:13 Adam: what are threats to wetlands? 5 in particular
18:13 40% of wetlands in US are in Louisiana
18:13 * channelizing the missisippi
18:14 * MRGO - Missisippi River Gulf Outlet - a big channel from New Orleans directly to the ocean
18:14 * sediment goes out to sea, not into the wetlands
18:14 * salt water intrusion due to sealevel rise
18:14 * canal building
18:15 SLR = Sea Level Rise (2.7mm per year, 2007)
18:15 around here, 1cm per year
18:16 due to subsidence (as well as more water)
18:16 10.24 mm/year SLR for Grand Isle, LA
18:17 Hudonnoodles 2.7mm per year (2007 study) is the Global Average for SLR
18:17 warren_ SLR is due to extraction -- among other things, oil
18:17 * agricultural runoff
18:17 Adam: dams!
18:17 watch your language adam
18:17 sediment is trapped behind dams
18:17 Hudonnoodles Dam Count: 3
18:18 warren_ Scott Eustis: separate out long-term and short-term problems
18:18 becuase restoration solutions fit in those 2 categories
18:18 Patcoyle <Patcoyle!~Patcoyle@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
18:18 warren_ out wetlands are deteriorating. 4000 yrs ago, this delta was only water --
18:19 dams and levying of river screw up sediment depositing in the long term
18:19 short term: development by industrial and residential, esp. deep water shipping canals
18:19 in cocodrie, the Houma navigation canal
18:20 Bayou Bienvenue triangle in New Orleans
18:20 by the 9th ward
18:20 used to be a cypress swamp, but is now gone
18:20 salt water came up the canal and killed off the plants, and then the land collapses
18:21 Scott: oil and gas. (showing pictures)
18:21 "keyhole canals"
18:21 submersible drilling barges were floated in on a dredged channel
18:21 once oil/gas is extracted, the wetlands sink
18:21 "hotspot loss"
18:22 marsh is still there -- it hasn't eroded away, it's just sunk under the water
18:23 Solution is twofold: 1) put river back to work
18:23 let it flood areas
18:23 Army Corps of Engineers has built the levy system to protect human settlement areas
18:23 allowing sediment to be flooded into an area can create new land
18:24 gates in the river levy
18:25 can only put gates in relatively non-populated areas
18:26 another technique: pumping and dredging from the river, pumping into a containment cell to create land, plants are planted or colonize on their own
18:28 Scott E: we're using balloon/kite mapping to monitor replanting, regrowth
18:29 one benefit of wetlands is carbon sequestration, so carbon credit money could be used to fund restoration
18:29 Wetlands are particularly good at sequestering carbon
18:30 we're not going to be get back to what we had in, say, 1980
18:31 the map in this room is deceptive -- lots of the Louisiana coastline is now gone
18:32 industrial uses are historically more responsible for wetlands loss
18:33 more recently, hurricanes
18:33 but that difference could be due to mapping improvements since 2005
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18:36 warren_ discussion about mangroves, oyster overindulgence, other issues
18:38 we are now going CANOEING
18:38 #topic canoeing
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19:00 Jean-Christophe <Jean-Christophe!~Jean-Chri@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
19:00 Jean-Christophe Hi all
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20:37 warren <warren!~warren@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
20:39 mathew mapping curriculum"
20:39 http://publiclaboratory.org/wi[…]apping-curriculum
20:39 warren http://publiclaboratory.org/wi[…]ometry-activities
20:39 #topic K-12 education (adam & eric)
20:41 research note draft here: http://pad.publiclaboratory.org/p/barnraising
20:42 bolster scientific understanding within the population at large
20:42 (broader picture reasons for interest in education for Public Lab)
20:42 (Adam speaking)
20:43 Hudonnoodles <Hudonnoodles!~Hudonnood@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
20:43 warren talking general accessibility
20:43 want to assemble an Education working group
20:43 want to write some curricular materials to push this
20:44 Eric discusses his background in education
20:44 community gardens, inner city kids culture... my note taking not so great here
20:44 spatial awareness
20:44 donblair <donblair!~donblair@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
20:45 warren jump in on taking notes here if you want
20:45 doesn't make sense if it doesn't relate to you personally
20:45 Hudonnoodles continue discussion on spatial awareness with children - i.e.: children on a soccer field
20:45 warren avoid hypotheticals
20:45 ball
20:45 gonzoearth <gonzoearth!~gonzoeart@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
20:46 Hudonnoodles a great way to start is a map of a child's school yard
20:46 warren map of kids schoolyard is great place to start
20:46 aha!
20:46 Hudonnoodles potential collaboration with Groundwork
20:46 warren points of interest
20:46 personally
20:46 map literacy
20:47 grassroots mapping hits different learning styles?
20:47 Hudonnoodles learning style, maps are a good visual way to understand something. visual learning
20:47 warren learn about space by walking around it
20:47 donblair role of play in learning
20:47 Hudonnoodles Shannon - I like the idea of play. Cindy has other "play" to learn tools
20:47 donblair cindy: "touch play learn" program
20:47 Hudonnoodles Cindy talks about Touch Play Learn Community Center
20:48 warren conductive and insulating play-doh
20:48 arduino with clay circuitry
20:49 play gave them ownership over what they were doing,
20:49 peer teaching
20:49 Hudonnoodles other kids teaching other kids
20:50 Pat Coyle: mentions the illustrated guide to balloon mapping
20:50 warren illustrated guides
20:50 gonzoearth Simplicity of the GRM illustrated guide
20:50 warren how vs why - are we good at explaining why?
20:50 Hudonnoodles Liz: We can talk about how, but can we talk about "why"
20:51 Shannon: especially with advocacy and mission
20:51 warren what kind of political/advocacy message are we getting into with younger contributors?
20:53 Hudonnoodles Oscar: use examples that are normal for a child. Where do they go? What do they already know?
20:53 Don: organize curriculum material by "place" and "issues."
20:54 curriculum materials based on specific places
20:54 Cat: How do you balance children that are coming from different neighborhoods to the same school?
20:55 warren social agency lab did a project at the Pruett Igoe
20:55 with 8th graders, "past present and future"
20:55 Hudonnoodles Jeff G: worked with 8 graders. Past/Present and Future
20:56 warren situate it in a timeline
20:56 inherent politics
20:56 Hudonnoodles Helping people to map a historical map onto a present map
20:56 Liz: I like it because its not political, but provides a framework for design and change
20:57 Jeff W: Crisis Mapping Wiki - 4-6 grade curriculum developed in Peru (in Spanish), created a whole series of activities based on what communities used to be like, what they're like now and what they hope for in the future
20:57 urban planning projects for 8 year old
20:57 donblair "urban planning for 8 year olds"
20:58 drawing different scales: your home, your street, your neighborhood
20:59 PLOTS maps are temporally situated
21:00 google earth "time" slider -- show how maps have changed over time
21:00 liz curriculum idea -- print out alll the historical GE maps
21:00 before going out to map
21:01 warren documenting things you are doing to *change* the landscape
21:01 like the oyster reef building
21:01 helen wood park
21:01 pat describes such a case when a school was being built
21:02 gonzoearth has quit IRC
21:02 Hudonnoodles Liz: 3 main reasons 1) documenting change you're going to make, 2) documenting pollution/problem, 3) investigation
21:02 warren investigation
21:02 Hudonnoodles (if you're not just doing it for fun)
21:03 liz investigation -- revelation
21:04 Hudonnoodles Do you need a reason for K-12?
21:04 warren for the kids, you learn best if there's a reason
21:04 Hudonnoodles You need a context. Kids learn best by playing and investigation.
21:04 warren that relates new info (maps) to your own life
21:04 Hudonnoodles But if you ask them, "do you get it?" Children can't always take it and bring it back home.
21:05 worried about using children to getting to parents for a specific purpose
21:05 *to get to parents
21:06 liz should not be disingenuous to use children to get to parents
21:06 Hudonnoodles ensure that there isn't a hidden agenda
21:07 If you enable access to tools to understand their own issues in their community (what they have/what they don't have), if you let that drive the next steps that's fine. IT's when you have an agenda that it becomes an issue.
21:08 education and engagement with children is a slipper slope
21:09 Edible Schoolyard mentioned
21:09 warren if youre serious about education, the goal is education itself, not the other agenda...
21:10 Hudonnoodles We have a responsibility to figure out how to bring in modes of stronger civic engagement
21:10 Question what's going on in your environment
21:10 liz without dictating what to think -- more like it's possible to think
21:11 Hudonnoodles Classrooms in UMASS, assign students to edit wikipedia
21:11 warren write wikipedia articles as assignments in school
21:11 if youre work is appreciated as a contribution, its motivating
21:11 Hudonnoodles there are a lot of maps that are not actually maps, we can teach children how to actually make maps
21:12 liz scale as a concept -- even to understand the space they occupy and traverse
21:12 Hudonnoodles start basic, and not have to do everything at once
21:12 donblair has quit IRC
21:12 Hudonnoodles basic questions: where are you now? where are you going?
21:12 the rest of the questions can be driven by the youth
21:13 we all come from different communities and different school systems and different local knowledge
21:13 digital divide
21:13 leaving it in a simple place, does not have to go to a very high level and the higher concepts
21:14 warren hyperlocal focus
21:16 Hudonnoodles print publications / neighborhood newsletter feel
21:16 the fact that someone else wants to see your map, is significant
21:18 Created a Zine at Parts and Crafts - mapping Somerville, MA
21:18 poster session group, produced a map guide of a neighborhood, and a clown friend pretended to be an alien visitor
21:18 gonzoearth <gonzoearth!~gonzoeart@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
21:19 Hudonnoodles writing a wikipedia article is different than writing a paper just for your teacher to read
21:19 826 in San Francisco
21:20 sara has quit IRC
21:20 Hudonnoodles What is 826? Nonprofit encourages kid at risk to write and have access to tools.
21:20 warren investigation/education geared towards a presentation -- gallery of maps, drawings, writings
21:21 claudia: photography with pinhole cameras
21:22 kids become educators
21:22 Hudonnoodles keep curriculum simple, make science fun
21:22 have one of the first goals to be obtainable
21:23 warren shannon: start with a simple mapmaking in an easy site
21:23 Hudonnoodles highlight what's most important to the child
21:23 warren For teens, school can be a place that adults run, where adults tell you what to do
21:24 (sez Cindy)
21:25 Hudonnoodles Mathew: you can pull out very academic skills from hands on activities like this, almost effortlessly
21:26 i.e.: I still remember geometry from woodworking not from geometry class
21:26 warren making a big public school curriculum may be a huge amount of work
21:26 every day will relate to every state-wide learning standard...
21:27 maybe approach through an after school club?
21:27 otherwise must be tailored to state, calendar
21:27 Hudonnoodles +1 to after school club/program
21:28 warren Scott: educate the teachers session
21:29 liz we should do wrap up questions for what the Working group really needs to figure out
21:29 1) what governmental hurdles need to be figured out
21:30 2) what curriculum do we need to teach teachers
21:30 3) what curriculum do we need to teach students
21:30 4) how can out technology be used (issues with minors - how does wikipedia deal with it?)
21:31 hypothesis testing
21:31 understanding what data is
21:34 Hudonnoodles http://www.corestandards.org/in-the-states
21:34 Maybe?
21:35 Online Forum to continue Curriculum discussion
21:36 Post-Barnraising, how can we continue this discussion and archive it publicly?
21:36 Wiki Page
21:36 Potential Solutions: PLOTS Education Mailing List, create a wikipage with email notifications, create an open google document, or research note and tage
21:36 *Tag
21:37 The bigger picture of how to organize all of the ideas - how to make it public, how to get others involved, etc.
21:37 OR write an article for the journal
21:38 warren Subscribe to #education on Public Lab: http://publiclaboratory.org/no[…]ation=node%2F4239
21:38 gonzoearth has quit IRC
21:38 Hudonnoodles I dont have access?
21:40 warren hmm, let me check
21:41 Subscribe to #education: http://publiclaboratory.org/no[…]/taxonomy/tid/379
21:51 mathew Curriculum session notes: http://publiclaboratory.org/no[…]g-k-12-curriculum
21:52 warren #endmeeting
21:52 meeting Meeting ended Fri Nov  2 21:52:35 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
21:52 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/p[…]-02T16:09:57.html
21:52 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/p[…]12-11-02T16:09:57
21:53 Meeting started Fri Nov  2 21:53:25 2012 UTC. The chair is warren. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:53 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
21:54 Alex_ <Alex_!~Alex@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
21:55 Alex_ Wanted to post a link to our Pruitt Igoe project, where Jeff, myself, and other members of our Social Agency Lab organization worked with kids to create a process for kids to reimagine the former housing project site:  http://www.pruittigoenow.org/third-prize/
21:58 warren #topic Difference between "civic" and "citizen" science
21:59 (Jessi Breen)
22:00 Scientists getting citizens to help them do research (commonly "citizen science")
22:00 http://pad.publiclaboratory.org/p/barnraising
22:01 Christmas day bird count
22:02 participants aren't involved in analysis, or framing questions
22:02 they are just sensors
22:02 Participatory Action Research
22:02 citizens are involved in analysis and framing, but an expert is guiding it
22:02 Muki <Muki!~Muki@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
22:03 warren Shannon offers a definition for "civic science"
22:03 Civic Science = "a science that questions the state of things rather than a science which serves the state"
22:03 (Kim & Mike Fortun)
22:03 liz HEY MUKI
22:04 warren Hi, Muki
22:04 Muki Hi there!
22:04 liz Cindy describing Extreme Citizen Science
22:04 gonzoearth <gonzoearth!~gonzoeart@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
22:04 liz level of involvement
22:05 warren Pyramid of Involvement
22:05 eric <eric!~eric@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
22:05 warren at the top is where questions are framed, analysis happens
22:05 liz scientists are facilitators of tools and information
22:05 versus using people as "meat relays"
22:06 warren bottom is the motivation is more to generate research papers, not to involve
22:06 Bloom's Taxonomy
22:06 synthesis/analysis at the top
22:06 (adam)
22:07 liz jeff sez: is there another level to add? if minimum engagement is hearing about a project in the media,
22:08 with increasing engagement as people read the website, read the listserve, begin to comment
22:08 thinking about one's own situation, learning the tools, going out and trying something
22:09 reporting back to the community how it went, what was different
22:09 Hudonnoodles question how science is conducted
22:09 liz coming up with an idea for a whole new tool, with whole new application
22:09 warren ladder of involvement
22:09 liz then coming up with an idea to run the open source community differently
22:09 warren questioning not only the data, but how science itself is conducted
22:09 for whom it is conducted
22:11 liz this is a conversation for facilitators -- to understand the difference between citizen science and civic science
22:11 jessi sez: this is also a political statement
22:11 Alex_ has quit IRC
22:11 liz Mathew sez: science is political from it's origins. beginining in natural philosophy and preset ideas
22:12 then narrowing down to a empirical, statistical, numerical definition of the world.
22:12 yet scientists themselves have been hostile to methodological discussion
22:12 warren Mathew: "the data shows..." is logical fallacy
22:12 liz there's a dialogue about the problems of inductive logic that is inherent in this conversation - do we want to go there
22:15 Cindy sez: Muki's research group currently drafting ethics of practice to be publc about where we stand
22:16 mathew Cindy: ExCiteS is working on a code of ethics, and we're going to wear that code
22:16 so people know where we stand
22:16 cfastie <cfastie!~cfastie@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
22:16 liz we are going to "wear the cloak" of citizen science, and do change from within that group
22:17 mathew cindy:trying to create citizen scientists with a strong sense of responsibility, because scientists can be so snotty, and scientists should have control over people's lives
22:17 liz Cindy sez:it's been appalling to hear scientists talk about using people
22:17 mathew we're not going to deal with the problems of the world from a lab
22:18 liz citizen science is about creating citizen scientists with a strong sense of social responsibility
22:18 Scott sez: difference in mode of publication
22:18 scientists are abour peer-reviewing journal publications
22:18 then released into official curriulum in a controlled information release to the pulic
22:19 mathew Scott: we publish in journals that are peer reviewed, but who is a peer? then that is channeled into a curriculum or popular media piece, and its a controlled channel.  Civic science seems to have more modes of communication
22:19 liz civic science seems to necessitate different modes of publication for more feedback loops
22:19 scientists question whether even writing a weblog taints their professional reputation for making statements not backed up by data
22:20 whereas alomst any scientist goes into professional science with the goal of communicating with the public
22:21 jessi sez: even when i finally delivered results on my masters thesis on campus i was somewhat terrified that any of my research subjects would be int he audience
22:21 public saying "no your research is wrong"
22:21 communication from scientists to public has become agonized
22:22 mathew traditional view of how scientists can improve credibility-- Tighter control of the Peerage: http://iai.asm.org/content/80/3/891.full
22:22 gonzoearth has quit IRC
22:22 liz make a rubric and figure out where within the rubric your data falls
22:23 ,ethew sez: "crisis of confidence" in scienct
22:23 gonzoearth <gonzoearth!~gonzoeart@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
22:23 liz to reform the methodology in immunological research and increase public confidence, this guy says we need to more closely control publishing, publish less, so that there are no results released that are not fully understood
22:24 Dan <Dan!~Dan@qwebirc.media.mit.edu> has joined #publiclab
22:24 liz "if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail." so, analagously, if you have peer review, then you need more review.
22:24 but what could our models of verification be so that our data has some sort of credibility
22:25 Catarina sez: similar ideas in public journalism
22:25 non-professional experts
22:25 what they have in common is an expertise that is no longer restricted to one domain
22:26 questions of accountability and of purpose -- we are all environmental activists in many ways, but it may be interesting to think of in terms of civic journalism
22:27 Don sez: seems there will always be hierarchies, or someone who knows something that someone else does not
22:27 being clear about those hierarchies can help
22:27 Catarina sez: this is the structure of egalitarian politics - based on demonstrable expertise
22:28 (cindy goes to the white board)
22:28 Eric asks: is it easier to teach a scientist to be a citizen, or easier to teach a citizen to be a scientist?
22:28 Adam - the later!
22:29 Cindy sez: there's a wonderful booklet available online called "ctizein scientist"
22:29 by Stigoe
22:29 Stilgoe
22:29 link?
22:30 mathew from urban planning, the ladder of citizen participation: http://www.cloacina.org/blog/w[…]pation-ladder.jpg
22:30 liz no longer can scientists work without a sense of civic responsibility
22:30 Muki Here http://www.demos.co.uk/files/C[…]entists_-_web.pdf
22:30 mathew Sherry Arnstein’s “A Ladder of Citizen Participation in the USA”, Journal of the American Institute of Planners, July 1969
22:30 liz thanks Muki!
22:30 Thanks Mat!
22:31 Muki And the Stilgoe booklet is building on Irwin 'Citizen Science'
22:32 I think that you'll also like the Public Value of Science booklet http://www.demos.co.uk/files/p[…]alueofscience.pdf
22:33 liz Cindy sez: power shifting throughout the duration of a civic science project
22:33 mathew where Fortun and Fortun defined Civic Science: http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/d[…]Fortun_Fortun.pdf
22:33 liz for instance, once the data goes public a new group gets involved
22:33 Jessi sez: how do we define a citizen?
22:33 Don sez: how do we define a scientist?
22:34 Stew: citizen - entire public
22:34 Mathew: what if i were doing pollution investiagtion in a community of "illegal immigrants"
22:34 jessi sezs: there is also the myth of amateurism in citizen science --
22:35 they may not be professional scientists, but they have some background
22:35 Pat: is making a living at it that standard? or is it professionalism
22:35 Don: it can't be how much you know, or how many years you went to school
22:36 mathew: i feel like being a scientist is about having a generally disagreeable attitude
22:36 Scott: within science there is a split between pure and applied science, as if applied is dirty, and pure is a gifted realm of true ideas
22:36 Oscar: related to authority
22:37 Scott: and there is an apparatus to control how people follow their curiosity
22:37 <mathew goes to white board>
22:37 Mathew: Ladder of Participation
22:38 Jeff sez: "cinncinatus"
22:38 latin for citizen soldier
22:38 Jeff Goldman*: urban planners debate continuously who the community is
22:39 does it take up all your time.
22:39 Alex: this may be a helpful observation because urban planners are literally the professionals dispatched to work with "communities"
22:39 gonzoearth has quit IRC
22:40 liz citizen science sounds like scientists that are professionals who are reaching out to the community, as well as citizens doing science
22:40 acknowledging that science has incentives NOT to talk to community
22:41 Mathew - ladder of participation --> informing is where scientists tell people info
22:42 they thought about reversing the arrow and getting information from people
22:42 but way about that is "citizen power"
22:42 there's a term being used called "co-created research" where scientists ask citizens what they want done, and then go away and do it and never talk to peopel again
22:43 Cindy: "all scientists are citizens, but not all scientists are citizen scientists"
22:43 "citizenship is defined around what people hold dear" etc
22:44 Catarina -- what about perspective, like doesn't science matter more when you are monitoring an oil spill?
22:45 Jeff Goldman: "there will be blood" analagy
22:45 Don: a lot of physics graduate students are working on questions that will have effects they will never see
22:46 it's not for me good versus eveil, but how close to hand are the questions that affect you
22:46 sometimes monitoring happens out of necessity
22:46 Scott: ecology starting in 50s/60s started asking old questions in a new frame
22:47 mathew scott:ecology started in about 1950, asking questions about processes that started long before 1950
22:47 liz in the culture of Gulf Coast, there is a dearth of expertise among people who culd be critical of the industry
22:47 there is information that is political because of it being generated at all
22:48 Don: anecdote i heard, apparently there was a historical meeting at the Royal Society with Hobbes and Boyle that coined the term scientist to differentiet them from theologically driven natural philosophers
22:49 science as a term is really loaded
22:49 Jessi: to what extent is this a change from "regular" science
22:49 is it just the addition of conscience?
22:49 Cindy: before the professionalization of science, wans't this how science was done? outside of institutions?
22:49 1800s
22:50 eric: emperors or kings highly guarded knowledge, to make their proclamations of natural "mysteries" like astronomy more powerful
22:50 Matew - to get back to the education angle, now gov is talking STEM
22:51 now science is seen as cool new stuff that probably explodes
22:51 that's the definition we're working with
22:51 that science produces new objects
22:51 not knowlege of yourself, or the environment
22:51 so when we talk about science "changing our relationship to the environment" it is radical
22:52 our hydrogen balloons *could* explode -- that's what makes it science ;)
22:52 in 1700s you had to be a "gentlemen" to verify science -- the start of PEER review.
22:52 Pat - also sexism
22:53 Jesi: are we having the French Revolution of science? who are we telling to eat cake?
22:54 less than 1% of americans are scientists, but everyone has questions they need answered
22:54 i don't feel the need to be oppositional - i totally love particle colliders
22:54 Pat - they want to have access to be able to "make"
22:55 Matt toups -- creating a new parallel science is interesing, but i'm going to pose a question about what we did today
22:56 we started today with overview of wetlands by scott and adam that was thorough. the science of how louisiana has been known for many decades
22:56 Scott: mostly last 20 years
22:57 matt toups --- i se this as analagous to what we know about the climate - scientists have known it, but people don't know it
22:57 after katrina, maybe a little more, but that's already fading. perhaps Sandy....
22:57 so if there was to be a vote in the 50s or 60s would there have been a popular request "please research this y'all"?
22:57 are the people asking for this?
22:58 actually no -- people would not have been beheading people in order to get wetlands research done (or whatever our matephor for popular participation is)
22:58 the thought question i pose is,
22:58 mathew matt toups: the throngs wouldn't be beheading someone to get wetlands research done.
22:58 liz matt toups: "would climate research have ever been popularly requested if they have been minority positions"
22:59 mathew Lippincott: to unpack that, we're talk ing about popular participation in research, and you're bringing in voting structures which is interested
22:59 interesting.
23:00 jessi: crowdsourcing research agendas would be a scary possibility
23:00 mat toups: but letting corporations and military dictate agendas as is normative
23:01 eric: maybe it also takes a very strong citizen like rachel carson to make the case
23:01 for citizen science to operate on the scale of "American Idol" .....
23:02 Eric: citizen science is about asking the questions and seeking enough opinion to make a choice
23:02 mathew lippincott -- civic activities "signing clipboards, putting up signage" -- maybe we're looking for civic particpation to include data collection
23:03 what if the next well-meaning young canvaser asked me for a hair sample to measure toxicity on a neighborhood with cancer hotspot?
23:04 question of values
23:05 typically people make a choice between a "scientific" position and value position
23:05 Don continues: that is not a valid argument
23:05 values come into science inevitably -- what other values do you want to include?
23:05 incluide in science or in whatever society we want to create?
23:06 eric has quit IRC
23:07 mathew ok its beer o'clock! thx for tuning in, jessi will transcribe more notes!
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23:12 Dan has quit IRC
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23:46 meeting <meeting!~sugaroid@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #publiclab

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