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#olpc-meeting, 2009-01-08

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
18:00 mchua sweet! Community test meeting time. Who's here?
18:00 (I know a number of people, like adricnet and lfaraone, are listening in today)
18:01 Zoysiamo_ Jeffrey Atkinson (Olin college chapter) listening in
18:01 mchua (And that it's still close to the holidays / 1cc is ridiculously busy crazy right now, so attendance is likely to be a little low tonight)
18:01 hi, Jeffrey!
18:01 cjb waves
18:01 Zoysiamo_ Hi, Mel!
18:01 adricnet "refactors" rails code on Desktop 5. This chat looks like more fun ;)
18:01 mchua *grin* hi, adricnet.
18:01 EKML Edward Murrell (Wellington NZ testing group)
18:01 jolson Hi, Mel!
18:02 mchua EKML: hello! I'll be visiting you folks in person in a few weeks :)
18:02 jolson: greetings, Jason! Glad you could pop in.
18:02 bpepple, are you around?
18:02 EKML mchua: Fantastic :)
18:02 Zoysiamo_ You're such a lucky one, mel...
18:02 jolson What else am I gonna do, *document?*
18:02 mchua jolson: also important ;)
18:02 dirakx hi all..
18:02 mchua our agenda, such as it is, is here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]etings/2009-01-08
18:02 hullo, dirakx!
18:02 jolson does anything possible to delay documentation another second.
18:03 Zoysiamo_ Hi EKML -- I love Wellington, but I haven't been there in years
18:03 bpepple mchua: yup, just got back.
18:03 mchua w00t, we have a bpepple
18:03 EKML Tabitha should be along soon I think
18:03 mchua So our agenda looks like this:
18:03 # 1 Project updates
18:03 # 2 Reorg!
18:03 where the first one is mostly "Brian talks" and the second one is "Everyone jump in and ask questions if you have any"
18:03 any additions?
18:04 (I wanted to leave a lot of time for #2, in case; I know the recent news might be of interest/concern to folks here, and want to make sure we have a chance to air things out if needed)
18:04 (with respect to how it affects QA, in any case - but you guys *are* QA, so...)
18:04 dirakx agenda looks fien with me.
18:04 mchua cool.
18:04 so, # 1 Project updates.
18:05 Activity testing wrapped up with mad mad props to all our testers from around the globe - Oceania had a great showing of test groups
18:05 there were some things that we didn't expect to get tested that were tested (NANDblaster, thanks to Joel Stanley & co.)
18:05 and some things that we still have to test more thoroughly - although these have all gotten some form of cursory testing, the following 14 activities still need a little QA love:
18:06 Help, the 4 TamTams, Pippy, Turtle Art, Calculate, Measure, Distance, Ruler, Scratch, WikiBrowse English, and Log
18:07 But overall, it was a great first round - we spent most of our time developing an infrastructure that will make it way easy to test Activities in the future
18:07 tabitha, hey! great to see you
18:07 anyway, so 8.2.1 testing... bpepple, any words/thoughts?
18:07 tabitha Hi Mel, how are you?
18:08 mchua tabitha: pretty awesome. :) frantic week of catching up from vacation and wrapping up for the New 100% QA Department phase change. ;)
18:08 right now we've got bpepple on 8.2.1 Friends in Testing - Brian?
18:08 bpepple mchua: not much to add, but I'm sending a note to our fedora testers later tonight.  I was going to send it yesterday, but then I heard about the OLPC changes, and wanted to see if it affected that at all.
18:09 mchua Friends in Testing is also one of those "Procedures in Progress," so the notion of how we do that is still under construction, so thanks for putting up with that so gamely
18:09 ah thanks, bpepple - do you want to talk about that here now, or wait 'till we get to the next thing (discussing those changes at OLPC)?
18:09 bpepple: (in case you had any other things to bring up about 8.2.1 stuff)
18:09 bpepple no worries.  Is there a preference in having the fedora folks sending the testing results to the devel or test list.
18:10 mchua: we can talk about that later.
18:11 mchua bpepple: generally speaking, test results should go to both devel and testing, but everything else QA-related should go to testing
18:11 (i.e. devel should only get our "here, test results for you!" stuff, or - hopefully more rarely - our "we can't test X until you do Y, please unblock us" emails.)
18:11 hullo, aly! welcome
18:11 tabitha NZ is here in force again ;-)
18:11 mchua indeed.
18:12 bpepple, does that sound ok to you?
18:12 bpepple sounds good to me.
18:12 aly hi
18:12 mchua bpepple: anything else on 8.2.1 stuff, or do you want to move on to discussion of The Changes?
18:13 bpepple do you know if they  are planning another stage build?  It looks like in the prior testing they ran new builds each week.
18:14 cjb bpepple: yup, think so
18:14 bpepple cjb: cool, was just wondering.
18:14 tabitha It would be good to know changes that impact us
18:14 cjb referring to the 8.2.1 builders in the plural sense is a little optimistic, but Mel will get to that in a sec :)
18:14 bpepple mchua: that all I had.  You can probably move on to The Changes.
18:15 mchua Yeah, all this build stuff might change moving forward, but for now...
18:15 w00t, thanks bpepple
18:15 okay, so... The Changes
18:15 I'm not sure how much people here have heard about them
18:15 (incidentally, cjb, I'm glad you're here for this bit)
18:15 cjl http://wiki.laptop.org/go/The_OLPC_Wiki
18:15 mchua http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]Wiki&oldid=190351 is probably the best place to start for background
18:15 cjb beat me to it
18:16 #LINK http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]Wiki&oldid=190351
18:16 (for posterity)
18:16 cjb actually cjl beat you to it :)
18:16 mchua b == l :P
18:16 Has anyone not gotten a chance to read the stuff therein yet?
18:16 waits
18:17 bpepple read it yesterday.
18:17 mchua I figured :)
18:17 If this is new to anyone and we need to pause to fill in backstory, please holler - though I really can't say I know much more than most of the people here
18:18 The long and short of it is that there was a massive staff cut, and as one consequence of this we won't have QA staff after tomorrow
18:18 cjb (as another consequence, we won't really have any developers either)
18:19 mchua (or non-large-country-deployments support, for that matter)
18:19 EKML how much development is at OLPC vs the Community these days?
18:19 mchua I'm one of those who'll be rejoining the community tomorrow, but I do plan on staying involved as a volunteer, especially with QA. ;)
18:19 cjb I'm still here, but that's about it for people who were working on the OS.  We don't know what'll happen with e.g. the 9.1 release; perhaps it'll change such that we help aggregate work from deployments into a single build for everyone to use
18:19 mchua cjb, want to field that one?
18:20 dirakx so how is going to manage support for example for uruguay ?
18:20 cjb EKML: in terms of writing code that closes OLPC bugs, almost entirely OLPC
18:20 EKML oh
18:20 cjb dirakx: from the wiki page:
18:20 With regard to deployments:
18:20
18:20       1. Latin America will be spun off into a separate support unit
18:20 this means, I think, separate from OLPC
18:21 jolson oh
18:21 cjb so, OLPC won't be managing support for Uruguay any more, although that's a transition that will take time
18:21 jolson I thought that meant, like, OLPC South
18:21 mchua but Uruguay will have support
18:21 cjb (I might be misunderstanding that part.)
18:21 mchua: right, from someone else.. it's all plans to be determined, I guess
18:21 mchua nods
18:22 dirakx cjb: yep but not sure what that means...it's like Uruguay have to support itself...or hire someone to do that yes ?
18:22 ok cool..
18:22 cjb something like that
18:22 it is unclear
18:22 mchua dirakx, it sounds like the arrangements are still being worked out (or at least not worked out to the point where they've been publicly announced yet)
18:22 a lot of very, very rapid changes are happening this week
18:23 other questions, concerns, thoughts on how this is going to affect our QA community?
18:23 tabitha so for testers - we still submit bug reports and still send in info to testing@lists.laptop.org - but maybe no one will fix stuff?
18:23 mchua I spoke with Ed, he's happy to have testing managed by community members (in the past, we've only had testing managed by internal people... but then again, we've only had testing managed for one release so far)
18:24 tabitha: I think it is more like "the people fixing stuff are now all volunteers instead of sometimes being employees"
18:24 so our strategies for bug advocacy may have to shift a bit
18:24 cjl tabitha, Activities (that you are testing) wer enever "supported" by OLPC anyway.
18:25 tabitha so hopefully minimal impact on testers
18:25 but big impact on core
18:25 mchua cjl is right - we'd have to ping volunteer maintainers for Activity testing either way ;)
18:25 cjl testing is done on behalf of activity authors and potential users, those both exist, as does teh infrastructure to report it.
18:25 mchua tabitha: yes, Activity testing should not be affected in the least - but testing on core OS builds may be, for a couple reasons
18:26 Zoysiamo_ who will be "in charge" of community qa?
18:26 mchua * no QA staff - nobody is full-time on testing anymore (I wasn't full-time on QA in the first place)
18:26 cjl Zoysiamo_: the community.
18:26 mchua * I am not sure if volunteers have access to large enough testbeds to do, say, 50 XOs + XS testing
18:26 cjb Zoysiamo_: would you like to be?  :)
18:26 mchua cjl + 1
18:26 Zoysiamo_ having experienced fedora-on-xo, I'm very concerned about organization
18:26 uhhhh...
18:26 not right now
18:27 cjb well, the good news is that we have significantly less organization now
18:27 Zoysiamo_ college is blocking me, unless someone removes that ;)
18:27 cjb which will decrease the rate of writing buggy code
18:27 mchua Zoysiamo_ brings up a good point, though; as a very young testing community, we're still figuring out how we operate.
18:27 cjb sounds like a testing win to me :)
18:27 bpepple cjb: ;)
18:27 mchua I've actually been pretty concerned that I've been too heavy in steering this group, and would *gladly* step down from running meetings and the like if someone would enjoy stepping up to do it
18:27 (but am also happy to continue ;)
18:28 oooo, cjb, I like. ;)
18:28 dirakx mchua: we have to think how to move some of this bug fillings to sugar labs,,,to find more people to solve them. at least the ones that are not related to the XO.
18:28 mchua yes.
18:29 One thing that I've seen tossed around is that we should be moving Activity testing upstream to Sugar Labs.
18:29 cjl http://sugarlabs.org/go/BugSquad
18:29 Zoysiamo_ +1 to mchua
18:29 adricnet A careful and exceedingly polite reaiming of all of our ordinance to Sugarlabs seems in order, in this channel and others...
18:29 mchua Now, in practice, I'm not sure how much this actually gains us; the group of people interested in testing seems to be interested in OS testing, and Activity testing, and etc. all together.
18:30 (In other words, no matter who's doing it, there is a list of things - Activities, firmware, the OS, Sugar, etc - that need testing to be done for the current Activities on Sugar on the Fedora-based OS on the XO big whonking stack to work.)
18:30 Zoysiamo_ mchua: it's good to have testers and developers for the same thing under one umbrella, no?
18:30 mchua (or to be verified working, rather.)
18:31 Zoysiamo_, sure, but you're assuming that the development is nicely split between upstream/downstream already. ;)
18:31 adricnet: one of the things you'll notice in the BugSquad link that cjl posted is that BugSquad != QA.
18:31 They triage.
18:31 That is all.
18:32 They triage and they help move things between upstream and downstream. Possibly chip in with a bit of bug advocacy as part of that, as needed.
18:32 cjl I would point out that it makes very little difference what one calls the group finding the bugs, the important thing is that bugs get filed where developers will see them, some at dev.sl some at dev.l.o
18:32 mchua cjl + 1
18:32 adricnet nods.
18:32 mchua In other words, Somebody That Isn't The SugarLabs Bug Squad still needs to do the testing.
18:32 adricnet mchua: +1
18:32 mchua (in other words, "yep, that's still us.")
18:33 I guess my question is "Can anybody see any reason why continuing what we are doing now isn't going to work for this?"
18:33 Because I have been trying to deliberately do things so that the community test group was *not* dependent on 1cc, as much as possible
18:33 adricnet Will mchua have more time for QA/bugsquish now?
18:34 Zoysiamo_ mchua: as long as the Community continues with its efforts
18:34 tabitha we will keep testing
18:34 mchua and aside from the "how do we get access to a 50 XO testbed?" question, which right now the answer is "people in Boston can come visit and use the 1cc testbed, and we'll work with edmcnierney to find a longer-term solution," I don't see any reason why not
18:34 tabitha, rockin'.
18:34 cjb concurs
18:34 mchua Zoysiamo_: aye, and that's only a question we can answer - we *are* the community.
18:34 cjb I'll do what I can to help, too
18:34 adricnet If there's more mchua available, this could be a positive thing here ;)
18:35 tabitha lets all have a piece of mchua
18:35 mchua we *are* QA. It is nobody's paid job to make sure QA gets done; now the responsibility rests on us, if we think it is important enough to take.
18:35 Zoysiamo_ adricnet: you're banking on a lot ;)
18:35 mchua tabitha, aly, EKML, you'll get a Mel in person soon :)
18:35 EKML woo!
18:35 She can see how easy it is to have a test group. ;)
18:35 tabitha very excited about getting a Mel in person
18:36 mchua adricnet, it's pretty probable that my sole main focus is going to be the test community after tomorrow :)
18:36 adricnet is jealous, generally.
18:36 mchua: Heh, sounds good when you put it that way :D
18:36 aly yay that should be fun
18:36 cjl mchua, acquiring the means of supporting your QA habit is worth spending some time on.
18:36 mchua in fact, one thing I've been thinking of is going around to visit test groups (starting with oceania, since I'll be there anyway) since I will suddenly have Free Time
18:36 so if anyone here wants to fire one up or get their fledgling one together and wouldn't mind a visit, lemme know
18:36 cjl, noted
18:37 dirakx we have to continue but we have to begin separating stuff..upstream/downstream, activities, hardware and the like,,and people should be aware of the separation, between sl and OLPC.
18:37 tabitha just need money mchua, just need money
18:38 cjl tabitha: and bandwidth, money does mchua no good without a fat pipe :-)
18:38 mchua dirakx: yes. any thoughts on how we can move that separation upstream/downstream forward?
18:38 dirakx i mean just to have the right places where the bugs could have more eyes to be solved..
18:38 mchua: that has to be discussed with all the people..marco simon, cjb etc etc..
18:39 cjl It is worth looking over teh git.sl.o to see what projects have migrated so far.
18:39 dirakx cjl: that's a start.
18:39 tabitha met Ian Thomson earlier this week - he wants volunteers for 8 deployments across Pacific - I am trained educator but I dont have the $$$$ to take month off - can probably do it if someone pays my airfares and accommodation, but who will do that... not enough money around these days.
18:39 mchua lives cheaply, sleeps on couches... anything's possible.
18:40 adricnet Okay I gotta get in traffic. Ganbatte, minnasan! Cheers.
18:40 mchua see you, adricnet !
18:40 dirakx adricnet: bye. ;)
18:40 mchua tabitha, I've found that if you have an open timeline and a really good proposal, and talk with a lot of people, things start happening... if you're keen on this, I'd love to help you out.
18:40 tabitha awesome
18:41 cjl testers should always familiarize themselves with the habits of developers, that elusive species that leaves behinds bugs (the preferred food of the QA junkie).
18:41 mchua In general, if anyone wants to do anything testing-related and thinks "man, but I need resource X to do this," Ping The Mailing List, and we can start calling down heaven and earth to make it happen.
18:41 tabitha lots of us have good employers willing to give us time off (some even might get vaguely paid time off) so we are part way there
18:41 mchua bugs, nom nom.
18:42 dirakx: i'm not sure more discussions will help much (diminishing returns) - I think what we need to do is to just start acting as if the structure we wanted is the one that exists, after a certain point.
18:42 (though we should certainly keep talking with all the people you've mentioned!)
18:42 so, I... have a thought on how we might be able to pull this off along slightly more organized lines, though I will disclaim that it is rather incoherent since I just came up with it
18:43 we've started to have a lot of community members informally taking responsibility for various bits of the stack, QA-wise
18:43 what if we just made that formal for a period of time?
18:44 tabitha is listening
18:44 bpepple sounds like a good idea.
18:44 mchua for instance, Activities (the stack's top level) - tabitha, aly, EKML, you folks have virtually been driving Activity testing ever since... heck, before we started these meetings.
18:44 EKML points at Tabitha as the driver.
18:44 (I just show up)
18:45 tabitha points back at EKML and cracks whip
18:45 EKML ow!
18:45 tabitha I am happy to keep being involved and no amount of restructuring will stop me from believing OLPC has a good vision
18:45 mchua what if you and the welly testers were The Activity Testing People, and took on the responsibility - maybe with... I dunno, overlapping 6 month or so terms - of Making Activity Testing Happen?
18:45 and so on down the stack.
18:46 Zoysiamo_ * is glad to pass of organization to the experienced bunch
18:46 oops
18:47 EKML er
18:47 mchua Zoysiamo_: you assume that we are more experienced than you. ;)
18:47 tabitha would like to talk more with mchua offline to be sure she understands exactly what is being asked
18:47 mchua tabitha, noted - maybe this is something we can work out in person while I'm with you folks at LCA/in welly, too?
18:47 EKML yah
18:47 cjl tabitha: I think she is basically asking you to keep on doing what you have been doing.
18:48 mchua tabitha: basically what cjl said, only just formally taking on the role. ;)
18:48 we can work it out over the next few weeks too.
18:48 EKML at the risk of really my mis-understanding; I'm inclined to say that if you start asking Tabitha to organize people outside of Welly, it's not going to happen
18:49 revealing* my mis-understanding
18:49 cjl EKML she cracked that whip and I jumped .. .
18:49 EKML Since from what I've heard/observed, people outside of the local contactability can float away easily
18:50 mchua nods
18:50 So, taking on the responsibility to get testing of $foo_component can mean several things, right?
18:50 1. you test it yourself
18:51 2. you get people around you to come and test under your supervision
18:51 3. you get people to test it
18:51 (I'm trying to draw these widening circles here)
18:51 EKML yah
18:51 mchua for instance, OLPC-the-organization could have done QA by going "OK! We have some staff! They're going to do ALL our testing in the office! That is all!"
18:51 and that's... most of what we did for 8.2.0
18:52 EKML Did it work?
18:52 mchua no, way too few people :)
18:52 EKML figured :p
18:52 mchua too few people-hours to run all of the tests well and report them *and* bug devs about them, imho
18:52 so then we went "Oh. Okay, that's not possible. Volunteers!"
18:53 (Well, the actual story is more complicated, but that's a good enough approximation for the purposes of this discussion.)
18:53 EKML yeah
18:53 I think I'm familiar with the problem.
18:53 tabitha well we have group that can do big-ish tests and with potential of another ten XOs coming (fingers crossed this is still happening) we can do tests with 20 XOs
18:53 Zoysiamo_ is out. Let me know what I should be doing, I'd be glad to help.
18:54 EKML :/
18:54 tabitha I will struggle to do much outside of New Zealand as it is being in faces that makes the difference
18:54 mchua I think the important thing is not so much who has the responsibility or how it's divided, but that there /is/ some clear notion of who's responsible for what, and until what time that is effective (and if anything remains nobody's responsibility, what those things are and how they can be picked up)
18:54 EKML agrees
18:54 tabitha But I can help the "top volunteer" in each location if that helps
18:54 mchua that does
18:55 we're running short on time (though I'm happy to stay longer /come back tomorrow / go onto email if people have burning discussions they want to continue)
18:56 Our next big date to hit is Monday - this coming Monday, Jan. 12
18:56 that's when http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XOcamp_2#QA happens
18:56 "the format's a bit unusual, as this started as "Mel and Ed should have a meeting to talk about QA going forward," ran into "But there's no time, and the community should be involved anyway," and rapidly turned into "well, why don't we just invite everyone else and have it at XOCamp?""
18:56 EKML heh
18:56 mchua I'll do my best to get that filmed/transcribed/an IRC backchannel so that anyone who wants to can participate
18:57 cjl tabitha: Coordinating with people like greebo that can do their own local whip-cracking is about all anyone can be expected to do, (beyond the reach of your local whip).
18:57 tabitha happy to do that cjl
18:57 mchua what would be very helpful, before that conversation, is if people could help lengthen the list of questions there - and write up proposed answers to them, and put forth ideas
18:57 dirakx ok my proposal is to begin moving all the activity testing to Sl at least the top level sugar related part..i guess our QA people is prepared to dicern between only XO related stuff and only sugar stuff...
18:57 mchua basically, when we sit down, we want to have as many questions, concerns, ideas, etc. as possible out on the table
18:57 dirakx but ok let's save this for another time..
18:58 EKML yah
18:58 mchua dirakx: go, go, edit! http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]n=edit&section=27
18:58 what other time? ;)
18:58 dirakx ok..:)
18:58 EKML I have to go crack the whip of my psudeo-peons in a little bit
18:58 mchua I plan on sending that request out to the mailing list, and trying to ping people individually before Monday as much as I can
18:58 dirakx since everyone is going..
18:58 tabitha other time = next friday?
18:58 mchua Probably after tomorrow night because I have to wrap up the rest of my employee stuff at OLPC tomorrow
18:58 well, we have 4 days to get all of those questions and such ready before the talk with Ed
18:59 dirakx i'll edit that page..:)
18:59 mchua thanks dirakx!
18:59 I know things might seem kinda fuzzy right now, but remember, we *can* keep doing what we're doing
18:59 and still be ok - actually, still be fantastic
18:59 dirakx mchua: thanks for this..-
18:59 mchua so yeah, 8.2.1 and Activity testing will continue; we'll likely add Sugar testing to the mix at some point soon
19:00 dirakx: no, thank you all for coming tonight; it's been very helpful
19:00 I was just telling Adam that I was happy about the changes - we have been having, basically, all community testing in deed, but not in word
19:00 tabitha cool, we will start thinking about how we use sugar labs bugsquad more
19:00 mchua and now we're doing it "in word" as well, which is awesome
19:00 tabitha: fantastic
19:00 tabitha: simon is the person to talk to about that, in #sugar
19:01 tabitha thanks Mel
19:01 mchua I have a request - since I'm going to be swamped for the next 24 hours, can someone else post notes this time?
19:02 (as in, I literally do not think I will have internet access between now and 5pm EST tomorrow, that doesn't need to be spent on Things That Aren't Community Testing)
19:02 (this involves grabbing the logs from meeting.laptop.org, updating the meeting wiki page with a link to the logs + a brief summary + any action items, and then mailing the link for the wiki page out to the testing list.)
19:03 I really have to run now, but if someone could grab that while I'm away, that would be totally wonderful)
19:03 thanks, everyone  I'm going to #endmeeting and scramble out
19:03 y'all rock
19:03 #endmeeting

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