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#olpc-meeting, 2008-12-18

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
18:00 mchua_ Sweet.
18:00 Roll call - who's here?
18:00 cjl scrunches down in seat hoping not to be noticed
18:01 joef me - just listening...
18:02 mchua_ (It's the holidays, so I figured it might be a little quiet in here tonight.)
18:02 So the meeting might be superfast this time. ;)
18:02 marcopg: ^^ :P
18:02 anyway, http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]etings/2008-12-18 == agenda
18:02    * 1 Previous meeting's action items
18:02    * 2 Friends in Testing / 8.2.1
18:02    * 3 Activity testing
18:02    * 4 Action items
18:02 additions/comments?
18:03 notes that agenda item #1 is done, since there are none outstanding from last time
18:03 hey fhop!
18:03 fhop i'm here, the party can now start
18:03 mchua_ starts the party
18:03 fhop hi guys!
18:03 mchua_ all righty, let's get started
18:04 no action items from last week, so #2, Friends in Testing / 8.2.1
18:04 basically, everyone needs to give bpepple a giant round of applause
18:04 as he's going to be stepping up as our [[Friends in Testing]] lead for 8.2.1
18:04 cjb hurrah!
18:04 bpepple: thanks very much!
18:05 mchua_ what that means is that as the 8.2.1 releases go out, edmcnierney (our release manager this round) is going to holler every so often when builds get "interesting" enough to test
18:05 fhop bpepple: word!
18:05 mchua_ (i.e. "we committed a patch that added a comma to this sentence in the GUI" == boring, "NANDblaster now works!" == interesting)
18:06 cjl hangs some festive lettering up MERRY    CHRISTMAS
18:06 mchua_ and bpepple will lead us through the testing for those builds, and life will be spifftastic
18:07 bpepple, Gregorio, and I just finished a great convo on that in here right before this meeting started, so you'll all get details in your inboxes in a moment
18:07 any questions on 8.2.1 testing?
18:07 or friends in testing?
18:07 (or testing?)
18:07 (or life?)
18:07 marcopg_ hello! (/me is never on time :/)
18:07 mchua_ the current 8.2.1 test plan is still http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_cases_8.2.1 and is becoming less of a horrible stub over time
18:08 Connectivity testing should get a huge boost on Tuesday - Kim is giving a "Connectivity/RF Testing 101" braindump that afternoon, in case anyone is in the area/interested
18:08 will take notes
18:08 m_stone mchua_: hello.
18:08 mchua_ m_stone: hey!
18:09 m_stone bpepple: greetings; sorry I was unavailable an hour ago. (I was introducing the mongolian tech lead, Dulu, to the FSF)
18:09 mchua_ marcopg_: this meeting looks to be a fast one ;)
18:09 anyway, that's the state of build testing right now... any questions/notes on that?
18:09 marcopg_ mchua_: you have not won yet, we will find something to make it longer ;)
18:10 mchua_ I'll take that as a "actually, Mel, 8.2.1 testing makes *complete* sense!" silence and move on :)
18:10 # 3 Activity testing
18:10 hey garycmartin!
18:10 marcopg_ hello garycmartin
18:10 mchua_ and tabitha!
18:10 tabitha Hello
18:10 garycmartin mchua_: (sorry! my goat falling asleep...)
18:11 marcopg_ mchua_: see everyone is late and we are not going to make it in 1 h :P
18:11 tabitha Sorry I am late
18:11 garycmartin (my go)
18:11 mchua_ garycmartin and tabitha, we just ran through 8.2.1 testing real quick
18:11 tabitha, garycmartin, no problem
18:11 marcopg_ mchua_: you need to restart from beginning :)
18:11 mchua_ garycmartin, tabitha, marcopg_: http://meeting.laptop.org/olpc[…]0081218_1800.html
18:12 just in time for the Activity testing agenda item though ;)
18:12 who's running a test sprint this weekend?
18:12 tabitha, I know you are...
18:12 garycmartin mchua_: have to read that later (on XO)
18:12 mchua_ tabitha: and I sent an email to Pia, Donna, and Joel after seeing http://www.olpcfriends.org/200[…]c-friends-events/
18:13 (and will catch everyone else who might be running a test sprint but isn't in this meeting on email, again)
18:13 garycmartin: np, the supershort version is that bpepple is awesome and running http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Friends_in_testing for 8.2.1 so we're in good shape for that
18:13 the big thing for Activity testing right now is making sure the sprints have what they need...
18:14 so tabitha, what can we do to help you out?
18:14 marcopg_ mchua_: are friends in testing and 8.2.1 sprints separate efforts?
18:14 mchua_: will they use the same test cases?
18:15 garycmartin I thought 8.2.1 would have custom test cases for the new bugs fixed?
18:15 mchua_ marcopg_: it looks like they will use the same test cases
18:15 tabitha mchua - Alastair just joined us
18:15 mchua_ aly: hey!
18:15 andresambrois: and welcome!
18:15 tabitha are we all going to use the spreadsheet form now ? all test groups?
18:15 mchua_ marcopg_: it's bpepple's call whether to use the same test cases, but it looks like that will happen right now
18:16 tabitha: yes, everyone is using the spreadsheet for Activity smoke testing
18:16 tabitha cool
18:16 andresambrois mchua_: hola!
18:16 marcopg_ mchua_: OK sounds good. Is there a complete testcase in the page you posted? was trying to get an idea of what it will look like when done
18:16 (sorry to get back to previous topic)
18:16 garycmartin mchua_: the google form's been offline each time I've tried to use it so far (but can see the sheet)
18:16 mchua_ marcopg_: (mind tackling this right after we go through Activity testing real quick?)
18:17 marcopg_ mchua_: nope that's cool!
18:17 mchua_ garycmartin: yeah, and only a few people had access to put it up
18:17 garycmartin: but Carl, in his awesomeness, has removed that bottleneck
18:17 garycmartin: now we have an olpc.testing google account (I need to post public "how to request access" instructions) that can edit/admin the spreadsheet
18:17 and everyone here should be able to get access very quickly
18:18 tabitha seems that only wlg testers using that form so far
18:18 garycmartin mchua_: ok, will keep an eye out for that
18:18 tabitha http://spreadsheets.google.com[…]HBpwk1EFNcQ&hl=en
18:18 mchua_ tabitha: Yeah, I think it's because the other groups haven't yet run their test sprints
18:18 tabitha: aside from "more people running test sprints like ours," what can we do to help you out?
18:19 tabitha we need more XOs, but think that might be sorted
18:19 we might need help cleaning up the ones we have - Alastair might be able to comment more there
18:19 oh and the time fairy to give us more hours in the day
18:20 mchua_ tabitha: ok, let me know if there's anything I can do to help with that (how many and how soon? I doubt I can get you XOs in 24 hours, but if you need more in the future...)
18:20 tabitha: I've filed a bug upstream with the time fairy on that one
18:20 aly, tabitha - 'cleaning up'?
18:20 as in clean-install reflashing, or the laptops are physically dirty, or...
18:21 tabitha they go slow now is what I mean
18:21 marcopg_ ouch
18:21 tabitha we seem to be having mesh connection issues too
18:21 but it could be overload - so many wireless networks they get confused
18:21 cr_lf carl is now here...
18:22 marcopg_ tabitha: as in, activity switching is slow for example?
18:22 mchua_ hey cr_lf!
18:22 cr_lf hi all
18:22 mchua_ thanks for resolving the spreadsheet issue :)
18:23 cr_lf np... sorry for the delay.
18:23 mchua_ tabitha: ok, so things we need to do for you folks: see if we can help get your XOs to run faster, and get you more time from the time fairy... anything else?
18:24 I'm pretty sure I have cleanup work left to do on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing tables (it gets a little better each time, I promise)
18:24 tabitha: are the semantic mediawiki test case forms at the point where you can use them to report results?
18:25 whoops, I should have clarified that question
18:26 cr_lf tabitha: they might go faster if alistair didn't mark all 63 activities as favourite!!!
18:26 mchua_ tabitha: our current test cases for Activities are in semantic mediawiki pages, like this: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Tests/Activity/Analyze
18:26 tabitha that activity info section with contact names for each activity is awesome - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing
18:26 mchua_ if you click "edit with form" tab you get http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]e&action=formedit
18:26 and you can add results at the bottom of that page
18:26 tabitha oh those, we dont use them
18:26 mchua_ tabitha: skierpage. is magic.
18:27 tabitha: yeah, I know they can be sometimes pretty awkward to use
18:27 tabitha: how can we figure out a way to get your test results into some sort of standard system, though, so it'll be easier to look up whether an activity's been tested or not and what the results are and such?
18:27 gregdek bpepple, mchua_: Sorry I had to run off...
18:27 mchua_ gregdek: np. we're in the test community meeting right now. ;)
18:28 gregdek W00t.  :)
18:28 tabitha good question mchua good question
18:28 cr_lf mchua_: that was kind of where I was heading with the google form... we really need to settle on one collection methodolgy... the wiki does it by activity but the google form might be easier to use...
18:29 mchua_ cr_lf, tabitha: Absolutely. It doesn't matter *what* the collection methodology is, just that there is one and everyone uses the same one for this round.
18:29 tabitha because we were acting on our own, we took the full list of G1G1 activities and assumed we would aim to test them all. so we have a list of all activities and we just mark them off each week.
18:30 mchua_ tabitha: ooh, ok, so maybe what the rest of us who aren't test-sprinting can try to do to help, then, is to take your results (I have them all in my inbox, they're great) and put them into that test case format
18:30 tabitha: so you can keep on doing exactly what you're doing
18:30 tabitha the g1g1 activity info section with names against each team may be the key there, so no duplication is going on
18:31 mchua_ nods
18:31 cr_lf mchua_: what format do the OLPC dev teams prefer to read off?
18:31 mchua_ fhop, garycmartin, joef, marcopg_, m_stone - what format do you prefer to read off?
18:32 cr_lf if they prefer wiki then we should use that...
18:32 mchua_ cr_lf: My guess would be "well-written bugs in Trac, assigned to their component."
18:32 cr_lf the google docs spreadsheet can be a pain to read...
18:32 garycmartin mchua_: wiki for me is easier.
18:32 joef wiki is fine
18:33 mchua_ garycmartin, joef: the wiki test results reporting system, or plaintext on a wikipage somewhere?
18:33 marcopg_ reads back
18:33 tabitha I really think it is good when we get feedback and asked for more information. We have had requests for logs (provided them) and what area to test more thoroughly. This is great - we know what to do. These come from bugtracker email and are great.
18:33 mchua_ stands corrected. wiki it is.
18:33 cr_lf so split out into individual activities to align with the assigned developers sound like the preferred option.
18:34 mchua_ tabitha: would you like help getting your test results out to developers?
18:34 marcopg_ mchua_: I'm a bit confused about what's the plan to get the feedback from the form to the devs :)
18:34 garycmartin mchua_: can you just confirm what information. test cases? (i.e journal resume works, activity launches kinda stuff)
18:34 cr_lf which means that unless we can work out a way to get the google form to upload into the correct wiki segment then it should probably be killed off...
18:34 joef mchua: if test cases are in "our formal test system", then test results should also be there. Otherwise, it doesn'matter
18:34 tabitha so if some guru can make the google docs spreadsheet and form into a wiki form and link it to all the right places in the wiki we are sorted - who can do that
18:34 mchua_ aa: were you trying to get an Activity testing sprint going this week sometime? (my memory is leaky at the moment.)
18:35 cr_lf tabitha: I'll have a look at it as a learning exercise...
18:35 tabitha if we are sure that there is a bug we put it in trac
18:35 m_stone tabitha: please do.
18:35 tabitha: trac bugs when you know that it's a bug, and emails when you've got questions are easiest for us to deal with.
18:36 joef tabitha: simplicity is the "key" word here
18:36 aa mchua_: its going to be impossible, I had an exam yesterday, I have another one Tuesday, and then christmas
18:36 tabitha yes, simplicity rules
18:36 m_stone tabitha: we don't receive any helpful notifications when the wiki changes so that makes it largely useless for bidirectional communication.
18:36 mchua_ marcopg_: I think the first thing we should do is take the results the welly testers have already gotten, put them into the test reporting system as joef suggested, then start contacting maintainers by email
18:36 aa mchua_: its very difficult to get people this time of year
18:36 mchua_ marcopg_: "hey maintainer of awesomeness, here is some feedback on your activity"
18:36 aa: totally understood
18:36 marcopg_ mchua_: test reporting system = ? (sorry for the ignorance :/)
18:37 garycmartin marcopg_: there are a couple of use cases for results. 1) so mgt can be happy some shipping activity is good enough; 2) so folks report to activity developers about bugs/issues
18:37 m_stone tabitha: does that help?  (also, for future reference, this stuff is written up at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Reporting_bugs)
18:37 joef mchua: only if test cases are also there!
18:37 mchua_ aa: I told you my memory was bad :)
18:37 tabitha oh, so we need to email as well as put in test cases as well as put in bugs in trac as well as updating activity pages as well as.... as well as... as well as... oh dear
18:37 mchua_ marcopg_: test reporting system, like http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]e&action=formedit
18:37 bpepple gets back.
18:37 garycmartin still is still reading a page or two back
18:38 aa mchua_: no worries ;), I will love to do it sometime, but I dont think I will be able until after XOCamp
18:38 tabitha make the test case reflect the stuff we put in the google docs form and we will be happy - lots of specific questions - does this work yes/no/partly/not applicable
18:38 mchua_ garycmartin: sorry! missed your question back there... test cases have set information for smoke testing ("launches, you can close it, screen rotation works," etc) and then the rest is currently freeform, for Activity testing, more exploratory
18:38 garycmartin: I am not sure if that answered your question, though
18:39 tabitha: nonono, you need to tell *us* what we need to do for you - especially for this weekend's sprint, since it's so soon
18:39 marcopg_ mchua_: ok, so developers will get feedback through wiki pages, and not through the usual trac means
18:39 joef guys, don't try to do it fancy way - simplify!!!
18:39 cr_lf tabitha: I think that unless we can get some automated magic out of the google form then we should kill it as a collection method... go back to ensuring there is a wiki result collection page for each activity and assigne a person for the test session as "update and control" person...
18:39 marcopg_ mchua_: (that was a question)
18:40 mchua_ marcopg_, tabitha: so for instance, tabitha saying "we make our test results in this format right now," and we have a test case reporting system on the wiki, and marcopg_ (for example) wants to get his bug notifications in trac
18:40 m_stone cr_lf, tabitha: you obviously put a lot of time into your testing. but that testing is only helpful insofar as the results are communicated to people with the power to act on them.
18:40 tabitha I recommend an update to what ever drives the test case pages - e.g. http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]e&action=formedit - so all activity tests have the right questions - that is making it easier for volunteers
18:40 mchua_ then tabitha would say "we are giving you test results in this format" and marcopg_ would say "I want my results in this format" and it'd be up to the test community (the rest of us) to make sure tabitha's results get stored and translated and put into where marcopg_ wants them
18:41 m_stone those people basically include other testers, hackers, and deployers.
18:41 tabitha I am very happy to drop google form and use wiki form if we can make it work,
18:41 cr_lf tabitha: ok... in the absence of an assigned wiki twiddler I can look at that...
18:41 tabitha yeah for Carl
18:41 cjb (sorry this is going back and forth) -- does Marco want test results, or just bugs?
18:41 and if he wants test results, is it as a curious sugar developer, or an activity developer?
18:42 marcopg_ cjb: my feeling is that bugs would be much better received by developers
18:42 cjb right
18:42 marcopg_ obviously the translations is going to take quite a bit of overhead
18:42 m_stone tabitha: the point being that, if you believe my analysis, then a good method is one which leaves you certain that the people who needed to hear your message received _and_ understood it.
18:42 mchua_ ok, let me try to get a handle on this here:
18:42 marcopg_ but well, properly tracking progress on the problems would be impossible in a wiki
18:42 tabitha Does OLPC head office know what outcomes they want from volunteer test groups?
18:43 cjb listens
18:43 tabitha yes m_stone - I agree
18:43 mchua_ our current test reporting system, as outlined on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing, has two ways of reporting two types of Activity tests
18:43 smoke tests, using cr_lf 's google spreadsheet, and everything-else (mostly exploratory tests like the ones tabitha and aly  and cr_lf et al have been doing) on the wiki test forms
18:43 that's just for collecting data, just for this (very short term - 1 week left) found.
18:44 and *then* since we know our data is in those two places, those two forms for this round,
18:44 and there isn't *too* much of it, because there are <30 Activities,
18:44 m_stone raises a hand to ask a question
18:44 mchua_ we can ping developers individually and say "Hey, the results for the Activity that you maintain are here. Do you want these things in Trac?" (or put them in Trac, then ask...)
18:44 m_stone: go for it!
18:45 m_stone mchua_: I don't see any results on that page yet, so it's hard for me to offer an opinion about whether it would work well for me. however, I see some obvious causes for concern already.
18:45 mchua_ notes that just because it's written on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing doesn't mean it's good, and really likes tabitha and cr_lf 's thoughts on linking or moving the smoke test spreadsheet to the wiki.
18:45 m_stone: what are they?
18:46 marcopg_ mchua_: hm it sounds like the data provided that way might still be useful, even if no immediately converted into tickets
18:46 mchua_ m_stone: (and is it important that they be resolved in the next 16 hours before the welly testers start? I'm cognizant and willing to put in overhead translating things into the "correct" form for this round.)
18:46 marcopg_ mchua_: (the most obvious problems will likely be reported by several testers)
18:46 tabitha http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing - can I also ask about this page - can you make it simple and remove the discussion parts of this page? Can they be in the discussion area and this page be the bible? SIMPLE makes this work, half the text would be better
18:47 m_stone mchua_: the biggest issue is that I don't see how the communication is going to work here.
18:47 mchua_: what would cause me to read this page?
18:47 (what stimulus, that is)
18:47 marcopg_ mchua_: the risk is that the overhead might be too high to ever convert them in tickets though, or at least it seems so to me
18:47 garycmartin m_stone: I could send you the link (once it was full of good stuff) and shout Oi! ;-)
18:48 tabitha we post a copy of everything to testing mail distrib so as long as developers are subscribed they get a copy of what we do and can read our headliners of what activities we tested - does this help
18:48 mchua_ tabitha: moved stuff to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk[…]_Activity_testing - is the main page better now?
18:48 marcopg_ m_stone: interest to see what problems people running your activity run into?
18:48 m_stone tabitha: okay. are developer's subscribed?
18:48 (I happen to be, but I'm unusual in that I'm subscribed to most everything)
18:48 mchua_ m_stone: not many are yet, is my impression - which is I think where garycmartin's suggestion of folks from the test community pinging developers comes from.
18:48 marcopg_ m_stone: developers could be contacted directly, I guess
18:49 tabitha The page is getting better for that quick move thanks Mel
18:49 marcopg_ most activity developers does not seem to be reading the lists at all
18:49 m_stone tabitha: [putting it differently -- if you want developers to see your results, you should probably go where the developers are; just as if I want testers to know something, I come to their meeting. :)]
18:49 mchua_ m_stone, marcopg_ If you look at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1[…]ng#Progress_table, you'll see the last item is "developer response," and that http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1[…]elopers_responded says "contact the listed maintainer"
18:49 m_stone duluu: hi!
18:49 mchua_ m_stone: so that's already part of the process - we just haven't done it yet.
18:49 duluu hi all
18:49 m_stone mchua_: what do I click to write there?
18:49 mchua_ hello, duluu!
18:49 m_stone: where?
18:49 m_stone mchua_: how do I edit it?
18:50 tabitha so who fills in what on that table?
18:50 m_stone tabitha: exactly.
18:50 garycmartin m_stone:  mchua_  re emailing developers, most of my contacting are off list and hidden to you folks. I try to work with activity developers first to fix things.
18:50 m_stone garycmartin: interesting.
18:50 marcopg_ mchua_: once the developer tells you that he is interested to get tickets about the problems that was found, how do we get these filed?
18:51 mchua_: is it responsibility of the people which run the sprints?
18:51 tabitha I am not sure why there is a testing email list if we are not testing for the benefit of the developers/authors who plan to make improvements
18:51 marcopg_ otherwise it seems very difficult to scale up
18:51 mchua_ marcopg_: not the responsibility of the people who run the sprints (unless they want it)
18:51 m_stone tabitha: (there's probably a testing email list because it seemed like a good idea at the time to someone.)
18:51 cjb do people think we need to keep talking about a best possible way for this before the weekend, or would it be satisfactory that someone would volunteer (will someone?) to turn the test reports into actionable bug reports while we think about this some more?
18:51 tabitha ok cool
18:51 list is great
18:51 marcopg_ mchua_: ok then my fear is that there will be more people interested in running sprints, than in doing the boring sprint -> tickets conversion
18:52 m_stone (probably to someone who was overwhemled by the traffic on the devel lists)
18:52 tabitha list needs to have right people reading it
18:52 mchua_ tabitha: it's so that we can talk about how to set up and run tests and such, and then we report results to the developers (on the devel list, I would say)
18:52 cr_lf m_stone: it's all a bit circular at the moment... what I was originally after were the design docs for the activities... from there you can work out what the thing should be doing... the results then get posted back and either the bug gets fixed or the design is changed to make it a feature...
18:52 m_stone cr_lf: oh, that's really interesting.
18:52 cr_lf: I don't know any activities that have design docs.
18:52 cr_lf: did someone lead you to believe that they exist?
18:52 cr_lf :-)
18:52 mchua_ tabitha: for instance, "I'm trying to come up with a way to automate memory leak testing" or "I'm running a test sprint on Tuesday" == testing list, "I ran these tests and here are the results" == we should probably start putting those on the devel list
18:52 m_stone: they are listed as needing to be created.
18:53 m_stone mchua_: well, do they actually need to be created? I mean, if we've got a 100 activities and no docs....
18:53 (I appreciate that testers find them helpful, but I wonder whether we can solve that problem by other means...)
18:53 mchua_ m_stone: I'd be happy to explain the current infrastructure (and the current infrastructure plan) at any length anybody here wishes outside the meeting, on the mailing list perhaps.
18:53 I'd like to re-raise cjb's question: do people think we need to keep talking about a best possible way for this before the weekend, or would it be satisfactory that someone would volunteer (will someone?) to turn the test reports into actionable bug reports while we think about this some more?
18:54 If nothing else, I'd volunteer to do that, because I want to free people up to *try testing things* in whatever way is most comfortable to them *right now* - and we'll worry about formatting later.
18:54 marcopg_ to me it seem that even just getting the feedback to devels, even if not in bug reports form, would be a good start
18:54 tabitha I have to go now, but really looking forward to some clarity and direction from someone more important than me, if you have worked it all out, please let us know what we should do, we will be testing tomorrow for the last time this year, and back again 11 January with a kick start to the year being provided by Ian Thomson on Oceania deployments, talk later
18:54 cr_lf m_stone: my mind says yes...my experience says no... the concern is that we have a 'satndard' test but if 'standard test item 2' doesn't apply to an activity then why report it as a bug... but if we don't *know* that it wasn't part of the design then what do we do?
18:54 m_stone mchua_: it would be satisfactory to do as you suggest, but I know I'd like to continue talking about how to do this well while tabitha and cr_lf are available.
18:54 mchua_ And finishing this first round of tests will help us determine what formatting/feedback cycle we need.
18:54 marcopg_ so imo we don't block on it
18:55 m_stone cr_lf: I usually send an email to devel@.
18:55 cr_lf: it says "I was surprised to discover that Browse blows up when viewing foobar.com. Is it supposed to do this?"
18:55 mchua_ tabitha: in terms of Activity testing, you and the welly testers *are* more important than me. but I'll make sure that email is sent.
18:55 cjb mchua_: I guess the fact that people are still arguing suggests that they want to keep going ;-)  But I think you're right that often stuff like this falls into place, and if it's hard it might be because we don't have enough exposure to how it might work to know how it should work.
18:55 tabitha standard test item - works yes / works no / works not expected / works kind of - categories could resolve that
18:55 marcopg_ cjb: +1
18:55 mchua_ cjb + 1
18:55 m_stone cr_lf: either that, or I judge that it's obviously a bug, in which case I record it in trac. Maybe I'm wrong, but so what? If I am, then someone will close the bug....
18:55 cr_lf yup... but again why should the devs have a zillion emails from people about the same feature that may not be needed...
18:56 tabitha bye
18:56 mchua_ I'd be super happy to stick around here and talk about the test case system with people if you think it'd help
18:56 m_stone cr_lf: two reasons: first, because it helps motivate them to know that people are excited by their software (and are using it)
18:57 and second, because it's a bad idea to record information that you don't intend to maintain.
18:57 mchua_ I'd like to make sure we don't have any last-minute general test community business before we do that
18:58 m_stone, cjb, marcopg_, cr_lf: would you mind restarting this discussion in a few minutes (so we can focus just on the test results reporting, and I'm not worrying about whether there's any community test business left to do?)
18:58 m_stone mchua_: sure.
18:58 marcopg_ mchua_: make sense, sure
18:58 mchua_ that way folks who are all set for the week can head home and all that.
18:58 thanks.
18:58 so does anyone else have anything we need to talk about with the whole group before we start that convo?
18:59 ...I guess not. Maybe it's just me then. :)
18:59 okay, then I'll pop off this meeting and we can start a new one, to keep the logs separate/ontopic
18:59 one sec
18:59 #endmeeting
18:59 thar she goes.
19:00 cjb Okay, roll ca.. fine, just kidding.
19:00 mchua_ cjb, m_stone, cr_lf, marcopg_, garycmartin, etc. - please continue. :)
19:00 pops afk for a moment
19:01 marcopg_ where we was? /me sort of lost track
19:01 cjb must not have been important :)
19:01 cjl m_stone: was being overly argumentative about methodology.
19:01 marcopg_ haha
19:01 cr_lf the idea was that from the design docs we get an idea of what was valid in any given test... a test plan for the activity is then developed and posted and any deviation (bug) was then noted and loaded into trac.
19:02 marcopg_ cr_lf: I'm very skeptic about being able to get design docs for many activities :/
19:03 cr_lf understood... the closest I can see if the activity description page..
19:03 marcopg_ getting the code and releases is already a lot these days
19:03 m_stone cjl: oh?
19:03 marcopg_ cr_lf: yeah some bits of that are in the activity page, but I guess far from detailed enough
19:03 m_stone "overly argumentative"?
19:03 :)
19:03 marcopg_ m_stone is overly argumentantive by default :P
19:04 cjb you mean we can change the default?
19:04 ducks
19:04 marcopg_ cjb: maybe, if we try hard enough ;)
19:04 m_stone was being rather restrained...
19:04 cjl m_stone: Yes, I think so
19:04 joef marcopg_: no, he just knows what he's talking about!
19:04 marcopg_ he must have a switch somewhere
19:04 cr_lf the test collection page then become part of the regression test capability... if a bug is fixed we still need to go back and test all other functionality...
19:04 marcopg_ joef: I never said he doesn't :)
19:04 m_stone cjl: do you want to say more?
19:05 joef marcopg_: right!
19:05 cjl I think that in the desire to see all bugs written up in Trac (ideally with patches appended), you are missing the point tha what the community testers are working top do is multifold
19:05 cjb cjl: go on?
19:05 cr_lf but we still need to have a central point where the test results are stored... otherwise we can spend a day troubleshooting a bug that has already been identified and loaded...
19:05 cjl One is to build a community tha is easily exported/replicated
19:05 m_stone (please go on. I don't think I've advocated any system at all in this meeting)
19:06 cjl This drives the desrire for writtemn test cases as teh starter kit for a testing sprint.
19:06 m_stone (so far, I've only suggested a criterion for judging their appropriateness)
19:07 cjb cjl: (let us know when you're done)
19:07 I mean, please keep talking, and we'll be quiet until you say you're finished, and so on
19:07 cjl The drive towards google docs or wiki pages is in part about having a larger picture framework drawn up, so progress within it can be made measurably.
19:08 sotrry, boss dropped by.
19:08 cjb np
19:08 cjl These are also tools that are more familiar to the "newbie surrogate" testing scenario.
19:09 m_stone cjl: do you have some idea in mind of what constitutes progress?
19:09 (or do you think other people share such an idea?)
19:09 cr_lf m_stone: the concern is that if we have a hundred groups doing testing and they all discover the same issue (or even different issues) is it really an issue or is it a user error...
19:09 cjl m_stone: Did you look at the Googledoc tha tabitha and welly were using?
19:09 cr_lf do the devs want to spend their time developing or answering the same email all the time...
19:09 cjb cr_lf: what would be wrong with finding out after bugs are filed?
19:09 m_stone cjl: I only saw the data-entry form.
19:10 cr_lf: we spend most of our time answering email.
19:10 marcopg_ cr_lf: even the fact that so many people run into it, is going to be interesting to developers
19:10 cjl data-entry form where? On googledocs or wiki?
19:10 m_stone (at least, I find that I do)
19:10 marcopg_ cr_lf: I mean, it might be by design, but it's most likely a design bug
19:10 cr_lf if we can collect and do first line analysis at the test group level then the data that gets back to the devs will be of a higher quality...
19:10 in theory...
19:11 marcopg_ cr_lf: agreed on first line analysis, but I tend to think it should be responsibility of the test group
19:11 cjb ok.  so we are proposing a model.. well, two models.. one of which is:
19:11 marcopg_ cr_lf: it's both difficult and very time consuming for someone else to take care of it
19:11 cjb * testers do freehand report submission
19:12 cr_lf marcopg_: sorry that's what I meant... I *am* in a first line test group...
19:12 cjb * test group meets, looks it over, does triage and works out what's a legitimate bug
19:12 * test group files bugs?
19:12 cr_lf can't code for toffee...
19:12 cjb .. and then, the other model is:
19:12 * testers do freehand submission
19:13 * the test group doesn't scale well enough, so the testers themselves should decide whether or not their reports constitute bugs
19:13 cr_lf cjb: correct... but without the design doc how does the first line test group know what is legitimate or not... what we work off at the moment is the activity wiki user guide...
19:13 cjb * they (or the test group?) files their resulting bugs
19:13 let's call those A and B for now.  are there others being proposed?
19:14 m_stone cr_lf: by spending lots of time with the software and developing taste and judgement and intimate knowledge of what it's supposed to do? :)
19:14 cjb cr_lf: I'm pretty sure *this* group has a good enough idea what legitimate bugs are
19:14 to the extent that I'm not going to be frustrated if they file a bug and it turns out it isn't a bug
19:14 that's fine.  it's not a big deal.
19:14 we can deal with having bugs that we close.
19:14 m_stone (we're happy that you took the time to pursue the issue and to learn more about our work)
19:14 cr_lf cjb and by *this* group you are referring to?
19:15 cjb cr_lf: the people in this channel, who are.. the community test team thing
19:15 m_stone (moreover, in short order, we know that you'll be able to help close not-bugs that other people fiel)
19:15 (if you felt so inclined)
19:15 cjb ("test group" is being overloaded here)
19:15 all of what m_stone said.
19:15 cr_lf ahh... is that community test on the dev side or community test on the tester side?
19:15 cjb cr_lf: it doesn't matter
19:16 m_stone cr_lf: I don't really understand the question.
19:16 cjb if they're oart of the community testers, they're interested in the same work
19:16 s/oart/part/
19:17 m_stone cjl, cr_lf: so anyway, returning to technology for a minute: I can absolutely see how the wiki stuff or the google spreadsheet would be great for running test parties and for getting people moving in the same direction.
19:17 cr_lf ok... as I said, I can't code for toffee, but I can read code enough to work out what should be happening so I consider myself on the community test tester side...
19:17 cjl m_stone: It has mostly to with lowering the floor for entry and allowing it to be franchised more easily.
19:17 m_stone it meets an obvious need that testers have to see what people are interested in, what people have already done, etc. and to allocate effort accordingly.
19:18 cjl: yes, that too, by all means.
19:18 cjl: I'm just trying to convince you that it solves only 1/4 of the problem.
19:18 cr_lf other testers may not have even that level of skill but stil want to participate... so we identify what they can do, how they should do it and provide a means to easily collect that info...
19:18 cjl m_stone, the problem is that know one said it did
19:19 You assumed tha, but people were working on getting A in place and you wer asking about Z
19:19 Yes, in the end of the day, a Trac bug must exist.
19:19 m_stone cjl: the other 3/4 include: communicating the results to deployers, e.g. through release notes, communicating them to hackers, e.g. by irc, mail, and tickets, and following through on the rest of the development life-cycle in order to get them fixed.
19:19 (or worked-around, etc.)
19:20 cjl m_stone: Did any one argue tha wasn't the case?
19:20 m_stone cjl: by omission.
19:20 cjl m_stone: That is why I felt you wer overly argumentative.
19:21 You wer not allowing the space in which an effort (only just starting) could feel it's way along a step at a time.
19:21 cr_lf right... I think we are all heading in the same direction but just from different start points...
19:21 cjl Obviously a GoogleDoc does not scale across the scope of the project (vertically), but it could scale across multiple testing parties (horizontally).
19:22 Much of this started by the solo efforts of the welly testers and there is a sincere desire t ounderstand what they are doing and how it might be franchised.
19:22 cr_lf correct, and if we can get that info out in a reasonable fashion to the assigned dev then that might work nicely.
19:23 m_stone is going to keep listening until cjl decides that he's ready to solve problems again, since he agrees with cjl that he's argumentative.
19:24 cr_lf: (incidentally, we don't really have "assigned devs"...)
19:24 cjl m_stone: At the moment the problem I am trying to solve is that your argumentative nature (in this case) interferred with some of the progress I would liked to have seen on exploring the middle ground between testers and devs.
19:25 cr_lf m_stone: ok... but we will be aligning against an activity rather than a person so that's not really a problem
19:26 anyway... well past lunchtime here so I have to scoot... might go and buy a book in wikis...
19:26 m_stone cjl: that could be a good thing to work on. would you like to start with a description of said argumentative nature? or with a suggestion about how to achieve the same goals to which it was directed by different means?
19:26 cjl: or with a claim that those goals need not be pursued?
19:27 cjb it does seem like a less constructive thing to work on than what we're going to tell tabitha.
19:27 m_stone :)
19:28 cjl M-stone, perhaps by looking at "what does this solve" as opposed to "what does this NOT solve" you might have seen more merit in the discussion of the spreadsheet and the wiki.
19:28 mchua_ is back
19:28 boggles at backlog
19:28 starts to read
19:28 m_stone cjl: sure. that's could be a good thing to open our email to tabitha with.
19:29 mchua_ is done reading. wow, this was a great discussion.
19:29 m_stone mchua_: ...
19:29 cjl I beleive teh point was teh the spreadsheet emerged spontaneously from the welly effort, it clearly solved "an issue" from their point of view.
19:30 m_stone mchua_: actually, I find it contains rather more circumlocution than I prefer, but that's just personal preference, I guess...
19:30 mchua_ I'm serious; I for one hadn't considered m_stone's point of view before, and that says to me that we (the test community, but it's my responsibility to make sure this happens) hasn't communicated well about what we're trying to do.
19:30 And that we recognize that there is much we need to be doing that we are not yet doing.
19:30 m_stone: aye, but it did end up with a better understanding at the end, it seems.
19:30 m_stone mchua_: I admire your generous and positive view. :)
19:30 cjb it would be pretty sweet to have a section in the release notes called "What The Testers Found"
19:31 garycmartin Idealy the testing list would be used more as a first stop when a tester hits something odd, other testers could then re-test or help out a novice, and perhaps raise the issue to trac themselves if needed.  That would only solve the tec side of trying to get bugs to people who can fix. The pressure seems to be that getting formal numbers so mgt can sign off easily is currently the higher goal.
19:31 cjb with a description of which groups tested which parts of the release, and what they thought and stuff
19:31 that would be pretty grassroots, right there
19:31 mchua_ And for the record, cjb's "A" option is what I've been envisioning for the test community, at least. We're translators and advocators - making sure testers can get in "on the ground floor" easily, but that their work is transformed into a format and place that's easiest and most useful to developers.
19:31 m_stone cjb: that would definitely be good. I said I'd help with some of that publishing for 8.2.0 and I dropped it on the floor. :(
19:32 mchua_ "What the Testers Found" ++ !
19:32 m_stone cjl: so do we agree that there ought to be an email that starts off with a paragraph explaining why the Welly spreadsheets and the wiki stuff are helpful?
19:33 cjb should we start up gobby?
19:33 mchua_ And garycmartin, I really like that idea about discussion on the testing list... I've been feeling kind of lonely speaking to an empty room there, lately. What can we do to get that kind of discussion/exchange going?
19:33 cjb for our e-mail description of this stuff?
19:33 m_stone cjb: good idea
19:33 cjb (which could maybe also function as minutes)
19:33 cjl m_stone: sure
19:33 m_stone cjl: great.
19:33 cjb ok, gobby on pullcord
19:33 (.laptop.org)
19:34 m_stone (does anyone want assistance using gobby?)
19:34 cjb document is "testgroup1"
19:34 garycmartin mchua_: make sure willing testers get signed up to that list, make them welcome there, and start posting.
19:34 cjl m_stone: In a full enough plan, it should also include why it is critical to get a bug filed (in the right tracker).
19:34 m_stone cjl: that sounds promising.
19:34 cjl: I'd also like to see us mention other important artifacts like release notes. :)
19:35 garycmartin mchua_: right now test email reports/feedback go all over the place list wise.
19:35 mchua_ fires up gobby
19:35 cjl m_stone: I think we are agreed tha closing hte loop on testing means getting it back out to the user again (the tester acting as a surrogate for the user in the first place).
19:35 m_stone that's a nice way of putting it!
19:35 garycmartin mchua_: hey if the test list had interesting stuff I could even add it to my SOM generation so we'd have a weekly map of hot topics :-)
19:36 cjl brb
19:36 mchua_ garycmartin: Yeah... and just because we have "procedures" doesn't mean everyone knows about them or wants to follow them.
19:36 garycmartin: ...ooh, that would be awesome.
19:37 garycmartin: Can you do it now, even before the list gets interesting, so we can watch its interestingness-increasing process? ;)
19:37 marcopg +1 about SOM!
19:37 garycmartin: it's really great to watch iaep on it
19:37 garycmartin mchua_: a (hopefully) focused list like testing should give some good mappings.
19:37 cjb cjl, garycmartin, marcopg: are you guys conversant with gobby?
19:37 (don't want to leave anyone out unless they want to be)
19:37 marcopg mchua_: is the list completely open now? it didn't use to
19:37 m_stone mchua_: ^^
19:38 marcopg cjb: I'm not sure I can get gobby to work on this connection :/
19:38 cjb ok
19:38 would it help if I put the doc in a web location and clicked save every now and then, or would you rather leave us to it?
19:38 garycmartin cjb: gobby, that's the chat + shared note taker? I think??
19:38 cjb garycmartin: that's right
19:39 mchua_ marcopg: The archives are open to the public, and anyone can subscribe to it, if that's what you mean.
19:39 garycmartin cjb: I'm on an XO here...
19:39 marcopg mchua_: yup, cool
19:39 m_stone garycmartin: it works fine on XOs (though the screen is a bit small)
19:39 cjb: and why aren't we doing this on a shared Write again? :)
19:40 marcopg: ^^
19:40 garycmartin m_stone: hey cool, didn't know
19:40 marcopg m_stone: heh :/
19:40 m_stone garycmartin: yum install gobby
19:40 (or apt-get, perhaps)
19:40 cjb: well, a google doc would be the other obvious choice....
19:40 garycmartin m_stone: Trying yum (I might run out of NAND...)
19:41 m_stone garycmartin: cool.
19:42 cjl all, I'm afraid I need to run.  m_stone mchua_ I will try t omake some notes and send them in an e-mail later.
19:42 mchua_ thanks. cjl.
19:43 cjb garycmartin: you could yum install gobby, but maybe a google doc is more sensible
19:43 m_stone cjl: thanks.
19:44 marcopg whats the hostname?
19:44 m_stone mchua_: thoughts on the gobby notes so far?
19:44 marcopg: pullcord.laptop.org
19:44 port 6522
19:44 mchua_ m_stone: reading...
19:45 garycmartin m_stone: 20M says yum, installing....
19:45 m_stone argh. erikg, duluu, and I need to eat.
19:45 cjb looks like mstone has to dash
19:45 m_stone fortunately, though, I think I already said everything I wanted to say. :)
19:46 marcopg weee seem to work even on this crappy connection
19:46 cjb holy crap mchua is a fast typer
19:46 m_stone I look forward to seeing your email!
19:46 cjb you don't realize it until you see lines of text race across the screen in real-time
19:46 garycmartin cjb: tell me about it!!
19:46 marcopg go go mchua_! :)
19:46 garycmartin cjb: I have to spend most of irc reading back logs!
19:50 mchua_ seriously, guys, I'm neck-and-neck with bjordan and dsd
19:50 when we were doing typeracer
19:50 and erikg
19:50 people in this office type scary fast
19:50 cjb I think you let them win
19:50 m_stone and then there's sj...
19:51 mchua_ more like I usually stink at accuracy but typeracer doesn't let you do that
19:54 garycmartin hey I'm just getting to test the "your journal is full, please delete the rest of your life" dialogue :-)
19:55 marcopg garycmartin: you use your xo quite a bit!
19:56 garycmartin marcopg: dogfooding ;-)
19:59 marcopg can't quite get used to this gobby thing
19:59 fears to edit ;)
20:02 cjb be bold!
20:05 hm, need a 5m break, will come back
20:11 m_stone mchua_: it's surprisingly coherent.
20:11 marcopg_ silly connection :(
20:11 m_stone mmm. :(
20:12 I think what's missing is more discussion about how these practices help encourage and enable people to give /more/
20:12 mchua_: ^^
20:13 both newbies and experienced wranglers
20:16 wonders where the document went...
20:16 (but has to leave to eat)
20:17 garycmartin m_stone: Arrrrrghhh.... was that me? There's no undo!!!!!
20:17 m_stone garycmartin: there may be an undo.
20:17 marcopg_ garycmartin: you deleted all of it?? ;)
20:17 m_stone of a very hacky sort.
20:18 cjb oh dear
20:18 I took a copy
20:18 m_stone thinks of gdb
20:18 garycmartin ctrl-a while typing all, left looking at an l :-(
20:18 marcopg_ hehehe
20:18 m_stone but can't remember how to use it.
20:19 garycmartin Blame the small XO keyboard :-O
20:19 marcopg_ garycmartin: yeah it's all the hardware fault
20:19 garycmartin: that's also why sugar is so buggy
20:19 garycmartin I have the doc open still if someone knows the key or menu...
20:19 cjb that's a save from before I left..
20:19 garycmartin marcopg_: ;-)
20:19 cjb (new doc)
20:20 michael's working on a full recovery
20:21 mchua_ m_stone: uh... I'll... wait until the doc gets recovered. (Just read this.)
20:21 cjb it didn't work
20:21 (sorry)
20:21 so we have what's in the new gobby document
20:21 testgroup1 (2)
20:21 garycmartin nuts, sorry folks :-(
20:21 cjb I think it's maybe five mins old
20:22 so shouldn't be too bad.. mchua, want to try and recreate what's obviously missing?
20:22 (since michael left)
20:22 mchua_ garycmartin: I did that once while coding with my computer architecture class team... I lost *all* our verilog for a lab, a good 2-hours of work.
20:22 They nearly killed me.
20:22 cjb erk
20:22 garycmartin That's a good reason to keep me out of git reps!
20:22 marcopg_ garycmartin: you are lucky that we are good people and we don't kill ;)
20:23 mchua_ garycmartin: but the thing is that afterwards we looked at it and went "hey, actually, writing it a second time made it wayyy better."
20:23 cjb garycmartin: actually, a git repo wouldn't have this problem, that's the point of them :)
20:23 marcopg_ garycmartin: hehe git has history!
20:23 garycmartin I found the undo, and it's disabled...
20:23 marcopg_: not if you delet the rep.
20:23 mchua_ garycmartin: so it ended up being a good thing.
20:23 marcopg_ mchua_: hehe similar feeling when doing something stupid with code...
20:24 garycmartin: or if you forget to push ;)
20:25 cjb I think the new version of gobby has undo, but I guess I don't have it
20:25 mchua_ m_stone: ok, looking through on how these help encourage and enable both noobs and experienced folks to help more... let's see
20:25 marcopg_ garycmartin: see you can blame cjb ;)
20:26 wonder if Write has undo
20:26 I *think* it's supposed to
20:26 cjb marcopg_: it doesn't have the helpful coloring yet
20:26 marcopg_ hm, I thought they was adding it or something though
20:27 garycmartin marcopg_: Write, yea, but not sure what happens in shared session.
20:28 marcopg_ cjb: and anyway until it's so unreliable I guess coloring won't help things enough :)
20:28 garycmartin I'm going to keep out of gobby, no undo is too dangerous for me...
20:28 marcopg_ hehe
20:28 garycmartin: don't worry mchua_ will have it all redone in ten mins
20:28 garycmartin: and much better even ;)
20:29 garycmartin marcopg_: I though is was already added (colour) but we ship old libs still.
20:29 marcopg_ garycmartin: yeah something like that
20:30 garycmartin hangs head in shame, not like we have time to burn...
20:30 marcopg_ fears even more now and give up on editing completely ;)
20:31 garycmartin: we have so many things to do that wasting a little time will not make a difference ;)
20:31 cjb I guess google docs would have been the right answer
20:31 garycmartin marcopg_: I did at least read it all through before hitting ctrl-a mid typing.
20:32 marcopg_ garycmartin: if you had good memory you could just type it all then! :)
20:32 cjb I think we've got the rationale stuff down well
20:33 mchua_ agrees
20:33 garycmartin marcopg_: :-b
20:33 cjb we just need to argue why what we're proposing is, well, related to it
20:33 (or change what we're proposing)
20:34 mchua_ Actually, I wonder if the thing to do here is to take our rationale, and then say "therefore, we propose the following changes to [[Trac ticket workflow]]."
20:34 m_stone: ^?
20:37 cjb I started writing a section that has "Our" in the title and it creeps me out, so I'll paste:
20:37 Our utopia:
20:37 -----------
20:37
20:37 Testers find a process that is unburdensome and helpful.  They know that they can be as involved as they want to in the work done on their bugs.  They're asked, if they want to be, things like "Do you think this change would solve your problem?".  Their work is documented, shared, appreciated, and credited.  Someone running an OLPC/Sugar deployment can look up what tests have been performed on a component; this information should even
20:37 be part of the release notes for software. ...
20:38 I guess having a developer write down what a tester's utopia is is pretty arrogant.  ;-)
20:39 mchua_ cjb: Write down the developer's utopia, then. :)
20:40 cjb: That sounds pretty good to me for a n=1 sample size of testers, though. ;)
20:40 cjb there
20:40 mchua_ :)
20:44 cjb: how's that?
20:44 (in gobby)
20:44 cjb testers have similar utopias to developers!
20:44 looks great.
20:46 hey, what's the name for this group of people?  community test team, or something?
20:48 mchua_ cjb: Semi-formally, "Community testing."
20:48 cjb: Honestly, I strongly believe it should be "testing."
20:48 (or "QA.")
20:48 That our QA efforts should *all* be community efforts.
20:48 Much like development. You don't have "Community development." You have... "development." (Or at least the demarcation doesn't seem as strong.)
20:49 cjb is true.
20:49 mchua_ (And a lot of that is the techteam seeing it that way, and treating it that way, and it's *great.* And I want that for testing, badly.)
20:49 And the community sees it that way too, I think. For development.
20:49 It's all mutually reinforcing.
20:49 cjb (My only problem is that "testing group", and even "Testing Group", doesn't make it clear whether it's wellington or us.)
20:50 i.e. the small group of people doing testing, or the small-but-hopefully-a-bit-larger group of people who've taken responsibility to facilitate testing in general
20:52 think I'm out of energy for now -- hopefully we can mail out what's in the gobby document
20:53 mchua_ Yeah, I'm flagging as well... "local testing" vs "testing," I think is the distinction we need to make
20:53 ah. and i have manuals to write tonight. hurrah.
20:53 m_stone, are you the one pulling the send-lever on this?
20:54 cjb that could work, although "testing" might not disimply "local testing" enough there
20:54 m_stone left about a half hour ago :)
20:54 not sure if he's coming back tonight.. probably not.
20:56 mchua_ oh.
20:57 cjb, garycmartin (anybody else): would you like to send it? If not, I can do it.
20:57 garycmartin mchua_: I dare not for fear of deletion! Scared for life.
20:58 mchua_: (have just carefully removed all the gobby installs from my XO)
20:58 cjb http://pastebin.com/m75eb1c40
20:58 for a copy :)
20:58 garycmartin cjb: :-)
21:00 mchua_: so will release mgt get enough data to feel comfortable picking activities?
21:01 cjb falling asleep, off to get the T
21:01 mchua_ g'night, cjb! thanks.
21:01 garycmartin cjb: night!
21:02 mchua_ garycmartin: Well, we've only tested Activities that they've already picked, so far - the G1G1 this year.
21:02 garycmartin: I think it'll make them feel more comfortable picking Activities. Probably make potential users more comfortable buying in and using it.
21:03 garycmartin: My primary goal in starting with Activity testing was really to build a test community.
21:03 garycmartin mchua_: G1G1 so true. I guess this is a dry run for the 9.1 pass.
21:03 mchua_ garycmartin: (And yeah, it's a dry run for 9.1, too.)
21:05 garycmartin: Activity testing is an easy entry project for the community to take on; it's immediately useful (in that it raises comfort levels across the board - users, developers, management, etc. - about the decisions they *have* to be making) - but isn't a blocker.
21:05 Um...
21:05 Gosh, that was badly phrased.
21:05 Activity testing is more like greasing squeaky, stuck gears than adding a missing gear entirely.
21:05 It makes the things that were already happening, happen more smoothly, more nicely, more... comfortably.
21:05 garycmartin mchua_: I think I got the point :-)
21:06 mchua_ garycmartin: *grin* Conciseness: yet another skill I haven't learned yet.
21:12 garycmartin mchua_: need to go filter down my email before it grows too much ;-) thanks for the meeting and sorry I made you do more work (ctrl-a)
21:20 mchua_ hey, no worries. thanks for coming.
21:20 oh! nearly forgot
21:20 #endmeeting

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