| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 18:00 | mchua_ | Sweet. |
| 18:00 | Roll call - who's here? | |
| 18:00 | cjl | scrunches down in seat hoping not to be noticed |
| 18:01 | joef | me - just listening... |
| 18:02 | mchua_ | (It's the holidays, so I figured it might be a little quiet in here tonight.) |
| 18:02 | So the meeting might be superfast this time. ;) | |
| 18:02 | marcopg: ^^ :P | |
| 18:02 | anyway, http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]etings/2008-12-18 == agenda | |
| 18:02 | * 1 Previous meeting's action items | |
| 18:02 | * 2 Friends in Testing / 8.2.1 | |
| 18:02 | * 3 Activity testing | |
| 18:02 | * 4 Action items | |
| 18:02 | additions/comments? | |
| 18:03 | notes that agenda item #1 is done, since there are none outstanding from last time | |
| 18:03 | hey fhop! | |
| 18:03 | fhop | i'm here, the party can now start |
| 18:03 | mchua_ | starts the party |
| 18:03 | fhop | hi guys! |
| 18:03 | mchua_ | all righty, let's get started |
| 18:04 | no action items from last week, so #2, Friends in Testing / 8.2.1 | |
| 18:04 | basically, everyone needs to give bpepple a giant round of applause | |
| 18:04 | as he's going to be stepping up as our [[Friends in Testing]] lead for 8.2.1 | |
| 18:04 | cjb | hurrah! |
| 18:04 | bpepple: thanks very much! | |
| 18:05 | mchua_ | what that means is that as the 8.2.1 releases go out, edmcnierney (our release manager this round) is going to holler every so often when builds get "interesting" enough to test |
| 18:05 | fhop | bpepple: word! |
| 18:05 | mchua_ | (i.e. "we committed a patch that added a comma to this sentence in the GUI" == boring, "NANDblaster now works!" == interesting) |
| 18:06 | cjl | hangs some festive lettering up MERRY CHRISTMAS |
| 18:06 | mchua_ | and bpepple will lead us through the testing for those builds, and life will be spifftastic |
| 18:07 | bpepple, Gregorio, and I just finished a great convo on that in here right before this meeting started, so you'll all get details in your inboxes in a moment | |
| 18:07 | any questions on 8.2.1 testing? | |
| 18:07 | or friends in testing? | |
| 18:07 | (or testing?) | |
| 18:07 | (or life?) | |
| 18:07 | marcopg_ | hello! (/me is never on time :/) |
| 18:07 | mchua_ | the current 8.2.1 test plan is still http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_cases_8.2.1 and is becoming less of a horrible stub over time |
| 18:08 | Connectivity testing should get a huge boost on Tuesday - Kim is giving a "Connectivity/RF Testing 101" braindump that afternoon, in case anyone is in the area/interested | |
| 18:08 | will take notes | |
| 18:08 | m_stone | mchua_: hello. |
| 18:08 | mchua_ | m_stone: hey! |
| 18:09 | m_stone | bpepple: greetings; sorry I was unavailable an hour ago. (I was introducing the mongolian tech lead, Dulu, to the FSF) |
| 18:09 | mchua_ | marcopg_: this meeting looks to be a fast one ;) |
| 18:09 | anyway, that's the state of build testing right now... any questions/notes on that? | |
| 18:09 | marcopg_ | mchua_: you have not won yet, we will find something to make it longer ;) |
| 18:10 | mchua_ | I'll take that as a "actually, Mel, 8.2.1 testing makes *complete* sense!" silence and move on :) |
| 18:10 | # 3 Activity testing | |
| 18:10 | hey garycmartin! | |
| 18:10 | marcopg_ | hello garycmartin |
| 18:10 | mchua_ | and tabitha! |
| 18:10 | tabitha | Hello |
| 18:10 | garycmartin | mchua_: (sorry! my goat falling asleep...) |
| 18:11 | marcopg_ | mchua_: see everyone is late and we are not going to make it in 1 h :P |
| 18:11 | tabitha | Sorry I am late |
| 18:11 | garycmartin | (my go) |
| 18:11 | mchua_ | garycmartin and tabitha, we just ran through 8.2.1 testing real quick |
| 18:11 | tabitha, garycmartin, no problem | |
| 18:11 | marcopg_ | mchua_: you need to restart from beginning :) |
| 18:11 | mchua_ | garycmartin, tabitha, marcopg_: http://meeting.laptop.org/olpc[…]0081218_1800.html |
| 18:12 | just in time for the Activity testing agenda item though ;) | |
| 18:12 | who's running a test sprint this weekend? | |
| 18:12 | tabitha, I know you are... | |
| 18:12 | garycmartin | mchua_: have to read that later (on XO) |
| 18:12 | mchua_ | tabitha: and I sent an email to Pia, Donna, and Joel after seeing http://www.olpcfriends.org/200[…]c-friends-events/ |
| 18:13 | (and will catch everyone else who might be running a test sprint but isn't in this meeting on email, again) | |
| 18:13 | garycmartin: np, the supershort version is that bpepple is awesome and running http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Friends_in_testing for 8.2.1 so we're in good shape for that | |
| 18:13 | the big thing for Activity testing right now is making sure the sprints have what they need... | |
| 18:14 | so tabitha, what can we do to help you out? | |
| 18:14 | marcopg_ | mchua_: are friends in testing and 8.2.1 sprints separate efforts? |
| 18:14 | mchua_: will they use the same test cases? | |
| 18:15 | garycmartin | I thought 8.2.1 would have custom test cases for the new bugs fixed? |
| 18:15 | mchua_ | marcopg_: it looks like they will use the same test cases |
| 18:15 | tabitha | mchua - Alastair just joined us |
| 18:15 | mchua_ | aly: hey! |
| 18:15 | andresambrois: and welcome! | |
| 18:15 | tabitha | are we all going to use the spreadsheet form now ? all test groups? |
| 18:15 | mchua_ | marcopg_: it's bpepple's call whether to use the same test cases, but it looks like that will happen right now |
| 18:16 | tabitha: yes, everyone is using the spreadsheet for Activity smoke testing | |
| 18:16 | tabitha | cool |
| 18:16 | andresambrois | mchua_: hola! |
| 18:16 | marcopg_ | mchua_: OK sounds good. Is there a complete testcase in the page you posted? was trying to get an idea of what it will look like when done |
| 18:16 | (sorry to get back to previous topic) | |
| 18:16 | garycmartin | mchua_: the google form's been offline each time I've tried to use it so far (but can see the sheet) |
| 18:16 | mchua_ | marcopg_: (mind tackling this right after we go through Activity testing real quick?) |
| 18:17 | marcopg_ | mchua_: nope that's cool! |
| 18:17 | mchua_ | garycmartin: yeah, and only a few people had access to put it up |
| 18:17 | garycmartin: but Carl, in his awesomeness, has removed that bottleneck | |
| 18:17 | garycmartin: now we have an olpc.testing google account (I need to post public "how to request access" instructions) that can edit/admin the spreadsheet | |
| 18:17 | and everyone here should be able to get access very quickly | |
| 18:18 | tabitha | seems that only wlg testers using that form so far |
| 18:18 | garycmartin | mchua_: ok, will keep an eye out for that |
| 18:18 | tabitha | http://spreadsheets.google.com[…]HBpwk1EFNcQ&hl=en |
| 18:18 | mchua_ | tabitha: Yeah, I think it's because the other groups haven't yet run their test sprints |
| 18:18 | tabitha: aside from "more people running test sprints like ours," what can we do to help you out? | |
| 18:19 | tabitha | we need more XOs, but think that might be sorted |
| 18:19 | we might need help cleaning up the ones we have - Alastair might be able to comment more there | |
| 18:19 | oh and the time fairy to give us more hours in the day | |
| 18:20 | mchua_ | tabitha: ok, let me know if there's anything I can do to help with that (how many and how soon? I doubt I can get you XOs in 24 hours, but if you need more in the future...) |
| 18:20 | tabitha: I've filed a bug upstream with the time fairy on that one | |
| 18:20 | aly, tabitha - 'cleaning up'? | |
| 18:20 | as in clean-install reflashing, or the laptops are physically dirty, or... | |
| 18:21 | tabitha | they go slow now is what I mean |
| 18:21 | marcopg_ | ouch |
| 18:21 | tabitha | we seem to be having mesh connection issues too |
| 18:21 | but it could be overload - so many wireless networks they get confused | |
| 18:21 | cr_lf | carl is now here... |
| 18:22 | marcopg_ | tabitha: as in, activity switching is slow for example? |
| 18:22 | mchua_ | hey cr_lf! |
| 18:22 | cr_lf | hi all |
| 18:22 | mchua_ | thanks for resolving the spreadsheet issue :) |
| 18:23 | cr_lf | np... sorry for the delay. |
| 18:23 | mchua_ | tabitha: ok, so things we need to do for you folks: see if we can help get your XOs to run faster, and get you more time from the time fairy... anything else? |
| 18:24 | I'm pretty sure I have cleanup work left to do on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing tables (it gets a little better each time, I promise) | |
| 18:24 | tabitha: are the semantic mediawiki test case forms at the point where you can use them to report results? | |
| 18:25 | whoops, I should have clarified that question | |
| 18:26 | cr_lf | tabitha: they might go faster if alistair didn't mark all 63 activities as favourite!!! |
| 18:26 | mchua_ | tabitha: our current test cases for Activities are in semantic mediawiki pages, like this: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Tests/Activity/Analyze |
| 18:26 | tabitha | that activity info section with contact names for each activity is awesome - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing |
| 18:26 | mchua_ | if you click "edit with form" tab you get http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]e&action=formedit |
| 18:26 | and you can add results at the bottom of that page | |
| 18:26 | tabitha | oh those, we dont use them |
| 18:26 | mchua_ | tabitha: skierpage. is magic. |
| 18:27 | tabitha: yeah, I know they can be sometimes pretty awkward to use | |
| 18:27 | tabitha: how can we figure out a way to get your test results into some sort of standard system, though, so it'll be easier to look up whether an activity's been tested or not and what the results are and such? | |
| 18:27 | gregdek | bpepple, mchua_: Sorry I had to run off... |
| 18:27 | mchua_ | gregdek: np. we're in the test community meeting right now. ;) |
| 18:28 | gregdek | W00t. :) |
| 18:28 | tabitha | good question mchua good question |
| 18:28 | cr_lf | mchua_: that was kind of where I was heading with the google form... we really need to settle on one collection methodolgy... the wiki does it by activity but the google form might be easier to use... |
| 18:29 | mchua_ | cr_lf, tabitha: Absolutely. It doesn't matter *what* the collection methodology is, just that there is one and everyone uses the same one for this round. |
| 18:29 | tabitha | because we were acting on our own, we took the full list of G1G1 activities and assumed we would aim to test them all. so we have a list of all activities and we just mark them off each week. |
| 18:30 | mchua_ | tabitha: ooh, ok, so maybe what the rest of us who aren't test-sprinting can try to do to help, then, is to take your results (I have them all in my inbox, they're great) and put them into that test case format |
| 18:30 | tabitha: so you can keep on doing exactly what you're doing | |
| 18:30 | tabitha | the g1g1 activity info section with names against each team may be the key there, so no duplication is going on |
| 18:31 | mchua_ | nods |
| 18:31 | cr_lf | mchua_: what format do the OLPC dev teams prefer to read off? |
| 18:31 | mchua_ | fhop, garycmartin, joef, marcopg_, m_stone - what format do you prefer to read off? |
| 18:32 | cr_lf | if they prefer wiki then we should use that... |
| 18:32 | mchua_ | cr_lf: My guess would be "well-written bugs in Trac, assigned to their component." |
| 18:32 | cr_lf | the google docs spreadsheet can be a pain to read... |
| 18:32 | garycmartin | mchua_: wiki for me is easier. |
| 18:32 | joef | wiki is fine |
| 18:33 | mchua_ | garycmartin, joef: the wiki test results reporting system, or plaintext on a wikipage somewhere? |
| 18:33 | marcopg_ | reads back |
| 18:33 | tabitha | I really think it is good when we get feedback and asked for more information. We have had requests for logs (provided them) and what area to test more thoroughly. This is great - we know what to do. These come from bugtracker email and are great. |
| 18:33 | mchua_ | stands corrected. wiki it is. |
| 18:33 | cr_lf | so split out into individual activities to align with the assigned developers sound like the preferred option. |
| 18:34 | mchua_ | tabitha: would you like help getting your test results out to developers? |
| 18:34 | marcopg_ | mchua_: I'm a bit confused about what's the plan to get the feedback from the form to the devs :) |
| 18:34 | garycmartin | mchua_: can you just confirm what information. test cases? (i.e journal resume works, activity launches kinda stuff) |
| 18:34 | cr_lf | which means that unless we can work out a way to get the google form to upload into the correct wiki segment then it should probably be killed off... |
| 18:34 | joef | mchua: if test cases are in "our formal test system", then test results should also be there. Otherwise, it doesn'matter |
| 18:34 | tabitha | so if some guru can make the google docs spreadsheet and form into a wiki form and link it to all the right places in the wiki we are sorted - who can do that |
| 18:34 | mchua_ | aa: were you trying to get an Activity testing sprint going this week sometime? (my memory is leaky at the moment.) |
| 18:35 | cr_lf | tabitha: I'll have a look at it as a learning exercise... |
| 18:35 | tabitha | if we are sure that there is a bug we put it in trac |
| 18:35 | m_stone | tabitha: please do. |
| 18:35 | tabitha: trac bugs when you know that it's a bug, and emails when you've got questions are easiest for us to deal with. | |
| 18:36 | joef | tabitha: simplicity is the "key" word here |
| 18:36 | aa | mchua_: its going to be impossible, I had an exam yesterday, I have another one Tuesday, and then christmas |
| 18:36 | tabitha | yes, simplicity rules |
| 18:36 | m_stone | tabitha: we don't receive any helpful notifications when the wiki changes so that makes it largely useless for bidirectional communication. |
| 18:36 | mchua_ | marcopg_: I think the first thing we should do is take the results the welly testers have already gotten, put them into the test reporting system as joef suggested, then start contacting maintainers by email |
| 18:36 | aa | mchua_: its very difficult to get people this time of year |
| 18:36 | mchua_ | marcopg_: "hey maintainer of awesomeness, here is some feedback on your activity" |
| 18:36 | aa: totally understood | |
| 18:36 | marcopg_ | mchua_: test reporting system = ? (sorry for the ignorance :/) |
| 18:37 | garycmartin | marcopg_: there are a couple of use cases for results. 1) so mgt can be happy some shipping activity is good enough; 2) so folks report to activity developers about bugs/issues |
| 18:37 | m_stone | tabitha: does that help? (also, for future reference, this stuff is written up at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Reporting_bugs) |
| 18:37 | joef | mchua: only if test cases are also there! |
| 18:37 | mchua_ | aa: I told you my memory was bad :) |
| 18:37 | tabitha | oh, so we need to email as well as put in test cases as well as put in bugs in trac as well as updating activity pages as well as.... as well as... as well as... oh dear |
| 18:37 | mchua_ | marcopg_: test reporting system, like http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]e&action=formedit |
| 18:37 | bpepple | gets back. |
| 18:37 | garycmartin | still is still reading a page or two back |
| 18:38 | aa | mchua_: no worries ;), I will love to do it sometime, but I dont think I will be able until after XOCamp |
| 18:38 | tabitha | make the test case reflect the stuff we put in the google docs form and we will be happy - lots of specific questions - does this work yes/no/partly/not applicable |
| 18:38 | mchua_ | garycmartin: sorry! missed your question back there... test cases have set information for smoke testing ("launches, you can close it, screen rotation works," etc) and then the rest is currently freeform, for Activity testing, more exploratory |
| 18:38 | garycmartin: I am not sure if that answered your question, though | |
| 18:39 | tabitha: nonono, you need to tell *us* what we need to do for you - especially for this weekend's sprint, since it's so soon | |
| 18:39 | marcopg_ | mchua_: ok, so developers will get feedback through wiki pages, and not through the usual trac means |
| 18:39 | joef | guys, don't try to do it fancy way - simplify!!! |
| 18:39 | cr_lf | tabitha: I think that unless we can get some automated magic out of the google form then we should kill it as a collection method... go back to ensuring there is a wiki result collection page for each activity and assigne a person for the test session as "update and control" person... |
| 18:39 | marcopg_ | mchua_: (that was a question) |
| 18:40 | mchua_ | marcopg_, tabitha: so for instance, tabitha saying "we make our test results in this format right now," and we have a test case reporting system on the wiki, and marcopg_ (for example) wants to get his bug notifications in trac |
| 18:40 | m_stone | cr_lf, tabitha: you obviously put a lot of time into your testing. but that testing is only helpful insofar as the results are communicated to people with the power to act on them. |
| 18:40 | tabitha | I recommend an update to what ever drives the test case pages - e.g. http://wiki.laptop.org/index.p[…]e&action=formedit - so all activity tests have the right questions - that is making it easier for volunteers |
| 18:40 | mchua_ | then tabitha would say "we are giving you test results in this format" and marcopg_ would say "I want my results in this format" and it'd be up to the test community (the rest of us) to make sure tabitha's results get stored and translated and put into where marcopg_ wants them |
| 18:41 | m_stone | those people basically include other testers, hackers, and deployers. |
| 18:41 | tabitha | I am very happy to drop google form and use wiki form if we can make it work, |
| 18:41 | cr_lf | tabitha: ok... in the absence of an assigned wiki twiddler I can look at that... |
| 18:41 | tabitha | yeah for Carl |
| 18:41 | cjb | (sorry this is going back and forth) -- does Marco want test results, or just bugs? |
| 18:41 | and if he wants test results, is it as a curious sugar developer, or an activity developer? | |
| 18:42 | marcopg_ | cjb: my feeling is that bugs would be much better received by developers |
| 18:42 | cjb | right |
| 18:42 | marcopg_ | obviously the translations is going to take quite a bit of overhead |
| 18:42 | m_stone | tabitha: the point being that, if you believe my analysis, then a good method is one which leaves you certain that the people who needed to hear your message received _and_ understood it. |
| 18:42 | mchua_ | ok, let me try to get a handle on this here: |
| 18:42 | marcopg_ | but well, properly tracking progress on the problems would be impossible in a wiki |
| 18:42 | tabitha | Does OLPC head office know what outcomes they want from volunteer test groups? |
| 18:43 | cjb | listens |
| 18:43 | tabitha | yes m_stone - I agree |
| 18:43 | mchua_ | our current test reporting system, as outlined on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing, has two ways of reporting two types of Activity tests |
| 18:43 | smoke tests, using cr_lf 's google spreadsheet, and everything-else (mostly exploratory tests like the ones tabitha and aly and cr_lf et al have been doing) on the wiki test forms | |
| 18:43 | that's just for collecting data, just for this (very short term - 1 week left) found. | |
| 18:44 | and *then* since we know our data is in those two places, those two forms for this round, | |
| 18:44 | and there isn't *too* much of it, because there are <30 Activities, | |
| 18:44 | m_stone | raises a hand to ask a question |
| 18:44 | mchua_ | we can ping developers individually and say "Hey, the results for the Activity that you maintain are here. Do you want these things in Trac?" (or put them in Trac, then ask...) |
| 18:44 | m_stone: go for it! | |
| 18:45 | m_stone | mchua_: I don't see any results on that page yet, so it's hard for me to offer an opinion about whether it would work well for me. however, I see some obvious causes for concern already. |
| 18:45 | mchua_ | notes that just because it's written on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing doesn't mean it's good, and really likes tabitha and cr_lf 's thoughts on linking or moving the smoke test spreadsheet to the wiki. |
| 18:45 | m_stone: what are they? | |
| 18:46 | marcopg_ | mchua_: hm it sounds like the data provided that way might still be useful, even if no immediately converted into tickets |
| 18:46 | mchua_ | m_stone: (and is it important that they be resolved in the next 16 hours before the welly testers start? I'm cognizant and willing to put in overhead translating things into the "correct" form for this round.) |
| 18:46 | marcopg_ | mchua_: (the most obvious problems will likely be reported by several testers) |
| 18:46 | tabitha | http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing - can I also ask about this page - can you make it simple and remove the discussion parts of this page? Can they be in the discussion area and this page be the bible? SIMPLE makes this work, half the text would be better |
| 18:47 | m_stone | mchua_: the biggest issue is that I don't see how the communication is going to work here. |
| 18:47 | mchua_: what would cause me to read this page? | |
| 18:47 | (what stimulus, that is) | |
| 18:47 | marcopg_ | mchua_: the risk is that the overhead might be too high to ever convert them in tickets though, or at least it seems so to me |
| 18:47 | garycmartin | m_stone: I could send you the link (once it was full of good stuff) and shout Oi! ;-) |
| 18:48 | tabitha | we post a copy of everything to testing mail distrib so as long as developers are subscribed they get a copy of what we do and can read our headliners of what activities we tested - does this help |
| 18:48 | mchua_ | tabitha: moved stuff to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk[…]_Activity_testing - is the main page better now? |
| 18:48 | marcopg_ | m_stone: interest to see what problems people running your activity run into? |
| 18:48 | m_stone | tabitha: okay. are developer's subscribed? |
| 18:48 | (I happen to be, but I'm unusual in that I'm subscribed to most everything) | |
| 18:48 | mchua_ | m_stone: not many are yet, is my impression - which is I think where garycmartin's suggestion of folks from the test community pinging developers comes from. |
| 18:48 | marcopg_ | m_stone: developers could be contacted directly, I guess |
| 18:49 | tabitha | The page is getting better for that quick move thanks Mel |
| 18:49 | marcopg_ | most activity developers does not seem to be reading the lists at all |
| 18:49 | m_stone | tabitha: [putting it differently -- if you want developers to see your results, you should probably go where the developers are; just as if I want testers to know something, I come to their meeting. :)] |
| 18:49 | mchua_ | m_stone, marcopg_ If you look at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1[…]ng#Progress_table, you'll see the last item is "developer response," and that http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1[…]elopers_responded says "contact the listed maintainer" |
| 18:49 | m_stone | duluu: hi! |
| 18:49 | mchua_ | m_stone: so that's already part of the process - we just haven't done it yet. |
| 18:49 | duluu | hi all |
| 18:49 | m_stone | mchua_: what do I click to write there? |
| 18:49 | mchua_ | hello, duluu! |
| 18:49 | m_stone: where? | |
| 18:49 | m_stone | mchua_: how do I edit it? |
| 18:50 | tabitha | so who fills in what on that table? |
| 18:50 | m_stone | tabitha: exactly. |
| 18:50 | garycmartin | m_stone: mchua_ re emailing developers, most of my contacting are off list and hidden to you folks. I try to work with activity developers first to fix things. |
| 18:50 | m_stone | garycmartin: interesting. |
| 18:50 | marcopg_ | mchua_: once the developer tells you that he is interested to get tickets about the problems that was found, how do we get these filed? |
| 18:51 | mchua_: is it responsibility of the people which run the sprints? | |
| 18:51 | tabitha | I am not sure why there is a testing email list if we are not testing for the benefit of the developers/authors who plan to make improvements |
| 18:51 | marcopg_ | otherwise it seems very difficult to scale up |
| 18:51 | mchua_ | marcopg_: not the responsibility of the people who run the sprints (unless they want it) |
| 18:51 | m_stone | tabitha: (there's probably a testing email list because it seemed like a good idea at the time to someone.) |
| 18:51 | cjb | do people think we need to keep talking about a best possible way for this before the weekend, or would it be satisfactory that someone would volunteer (will someone?) to turn the test reports into actionable bug reports while we think about this some more? |
| 18:51 | tabitha | ok cool |
| 18:51 | list is great | |
| 18:51 | marcopg_ | mchua_: ok then my fear is that there will be more people interested in running sprints, than in doing the boring sprint -> tickets conversion |
| 18:52 | m_stone | (probably to someone who was overwhemled by the traffic on the devel lists) |
| 18:52 | tabitha | list needs to have right people reading it |
| 18:52 | mchua_ | tabitha: it's so that we can talk about how to set up and run tests and such, and then we report results to the developers (on the devel list, I would say) |
| 18:52 | cr_lf | m_stone: it's all a bit circular at the moment... what I was originally after were the design docs for the activities... from there you can work out what the thing should be doing... the results then get posted back and either the bug gets fixed or the design is changed to make it a feature... |
| 18:52 | m_stone | cr_lf: oh, that's really interesting. |
| 18:52 | cr_lf: I don't know any activities that have design docs. | |
| 18:52 | cr_lf: did someone lead you to believe that they exist? | |
| 18:52 | cr_lf | :-) |
| 18:52 | mchua_ | tabitha: for instance, "I'm trying to come up with a way to automate memory leak testing" or "I'm running a test sprint on Tuesday" == testing list, "I ran these tests and here are the results" == we should probably start putting those on the devel list |
| 18:52 | m_stone: they are listed as needing to be created. | |
| 18:53 | m_stone | mchua_: well, do they actually need to be created? I mean, if we've got a 100 activities and no docs.... |
| 18:53 | (I appreciate that testers find them helpful, but I wonder whether we can solve that problem by other means...) | |
| 18:53 | mchua_ | m_stone: I'd be happy to explain the current infrastructure (and the current infrastructure plan) at any length anybody here wishes outside the meeting, on the mailing list perhaps. |
| 18:53 | I'd like to re-raise cjb's question: do people think we need to keep talking about a best possible way for this before the weekend, or would it be satisfactory that someone would volunteer (will someone?) to turn the test reports into actionable bug reports while we think about this some more? | |
| 18:54 | If nothing else, I'd volunteer to do that, because I want to free people up to *try testing things* in whatever way is most comfortable to them *right now* - and we'll worry about formatting later. | |
| 18:54 | marcopg_ | to me it seem that even just getting the feedback to devels, even if not in bug reports form, would be a good start |
| 18:54 | tabitha | I have to go now, but really looking forward to some clarity and direction from someone more important than me, if you have worked it all out, please let us know what we should do, we will be testing tomorrow for the last time this year, and back again 11 January with a kick start to the year being provided by Ian Thomson on Oceania deployments, talk later |
| 18:54 | cr_lf | m_stone: my mind says yes...my experience says no... the concern is that we have a 'satndard' test but if 'standard test item 2' doesn't apply to an activity then why report it as a bug... but if we don't *know* that it wasn't part of the design then what do we do? |
| 18:54 | m_stone | mchua_: it would be satisfactory to do as you suggest, but I know I'd like to continue talking about how to do this well while tabitha and cr_lf are available. |
| 18:54 | mchua_ | And finishing this first round of tests will help us determine what formatting/feedback cycle we need. |
| 18:54 | marcopg_ | so imo we don't block on it |
| 18:55 | m_stone | cr_lf: I usually send an email to devel@. |
| 18:55 | cr_lf: it says "I was surprised to discover that Browse blows up when viewing foobar.com. Is it supposed to do this?" | |
| 18:55 | mchua_ | tabitha: in terms of Activity testing, you and the welly testers *are* more important than me. but I'll make sure that email is sent. |
| 18:55 | cjb | mchua_: I guess the fact that people are still arguing suggests that they want to keep going ;-) But I think you're right that often stuff like this falls into place, and if it's hard it might be because we don't have enough exposure to how it might work to know how it should work. |
| 18:55 | tabitha | standard test item - works yes / works no / works not expected / works kind of - categories could resolve that |
| 18:55 | marcopg_ | cjb: +1 |
| 18:55 | mchua_ | cjb + 1 |
| 18:55 | m_stone | cr_lf: either that, or I judge that it's obviously a bug, in which case I record it in trac. Maybe I'm wrong, but so what? If I am, then someone will close the bug.... |
| 18:55 | cr_lf | yup... but again why should the devs have a zillion emails from people about the same feature that may not be needed... |
| 18:56 | tabitha | bye |
| 18:56 | mchua_ | I'd be super happy to stick around here and talk about the test case system with people if you think it'd help |
| 18:56 | m_stone | cr_lf: two reasons: first, because it helps motivate them to know that people are excited by their software (and are using it) |
| 18:57 | and second, because it's a bad idea to record information that you don't intend to maintain. | |
| 18:57 | mchua_ | I'd like to make sure we don't have any last-minute general test community business before we do that |
| 18:58 | m_stone, cjb, marcopg_, cr_lf: would you mind restarting this discussion in a few minutes (so we can focus just on the test results reporting, and I'm not worrying about whether there's any community test business left to do?) | |
| 18:58 | m_stone | mchua_: sure. |
| 18:58 | marcopg_ | mchua_: make sense, sure |
| 18:58 | mchua_ | that way folks who are all set for the week can head home and all that. |
| 18:58 | thanks. | |
| 18:58 | so does anyone else have anything we need to talk about with the whole group before we start that convo? | |
| 18:59 | ...I guess not. Maybe it's just me then. :) | |
| 18:59 | okay, then I'll pop off this meeting and we can start a new one, to keep the logs separate/ontopic | |
| 18:59 | one sec | |
| 18:59 | #endmeeting | |
| 18:59 | thar she goes. | |
| 19:00 | cjb | Okay, roll ca.. fine, just kidding. |
| 19:00 | mchua_ | cjb, m_stone, cr_lf, marcopg_, garycmartin, etc. - please continue. :) |
| 19:00 | pops afk for a moment | |
| 19:01 | marcopg_ | where we was? /me sort of lost track |
| 19:01 | cjb | must not have been important :) |
| 19:01 | cjl | m_stone: was being overly argumentative about methodology. |
| 19:01 | marcopg_ | haha |
| 19:01 | cr_lf | the idea was that from the design docs we get an idea of what was valid in any given test... a test plan for the activity is then developed and posted and any deviation (bug) was then noted and loaded into trac. |
| 19:02 | marcopg_ | cr_lf: I'm very skeptic about being able to get design docs for many activities :/ |
| 19:03 | cr_lf | understood... the closest I can see if the activity description page.. |
| 19:03 | marcopg_ | getting the code and releases is already a lot these days |
| 19:03 | m_stone | cjl: oh? |
| 19:03 | marcopg_ | cr_lf: yeah some bits of that are in the activity page, but I guess far from detailed enough |
| 19:03 | m_stone | "overly argumentative"? |
| 19:03 | :) | |
| 19:03 | marcopg_ | m_stone is overly argumentantive by default :P |
| 19:04 | cjb | you mean we can change the default? |
| 19:04 | ducks | |
| 19:04 | marcopg_ | cjb: maybe, if we try hard enough ;) |
| 19:04 | m_stone | was being rather restrained... |
| 19:04 | cjl | m_stone: Yes, I think so |
| 19:04 | joef | marcopg_: no, he just knows what he's talking about! |
| 19:04 | marcopg_ | he must have a switch somewhere |
| 19:04 | cr_lf | the test collection page then become part of the regression test capability... if a bug is fixed we still need to go back and test all other functionality... |
| 19:04 | marcopg_ | joef: I never said he doesn't :) |
| 19:04 | m_stone | cjl: do you want to say more? |
| 19:05 | joef | marcopg_: right! |
| 19:05 | cjl | I think that in the desire to see all bugs written up in Trac (ideally with patches appended), you are missing the point tha what the community testers are working top do is multifold |
| 19:05 | cjb | cjl: go on? |
| 19:05 | cr_lf | but we still need to have a central point where the test results are stored... otherwise we can spend a day troubleshooting a bug that has already been identified and loaded... |
| 19:05 | cjl | One is to build a community tha is easily exported/replicated |
| 19:05 | m_stone | (please go on. I don't think I've advocated any system at all in this meeting) |
| 19:06 | cjl | This drives the desrire for writtemn test cases as teh starter kit for a testing sprint. |
| 19:06 | m_stone | (so far, I've only suggested a criterion for judging their appropriateness) |
| 19:07 | cjb | cjl: (let us know when you're done) |
| 19:07 | I mean, please keep talking, and we'll be quiet until you say you're finished, and so on | |
| 19:07 | cjl | The drive towards google docs or wiki pages is in part about having a larger picture framework drawn up, so progress within it can be made measurably. |
| 19:08 | sotrry, boss dropped by. | |
| 19:08 | cjb | np |
| 19:08 | cjl | These are also tools that are more familiar to the "newbie surrogate" testing scenario. |
| 19:09 | m_stone | cjl: do you have some idea in mind of what constitutes progress? |
| 19:09 | (or do you think other people share such an idea?) | |
| 19:09 | cr_lf | m_stone: the concern is that if we have a hundred groups doing testing and they all discover the same issue (or even different issues) is it really an issue or is it a user error... |
| 19:09 | cjl | m_stone: Did you look at the Googledoc tha tabitha and welly were using? |
| 19:09 | cr_lf | do the devs want to spend their time developing or answering the same email all the time... |
| 19:09 | cjb | cr_lf: what would be wrong with finding out after bugs are filed? |
| 19:09 | m_stone | cjl: I only saw the data-entry form. |
| 19:10 | cr_lf: we spend most of our time answering email. | |
| 19:10 | marcopg_ | cr_lf: even the fact that so many people run into it, is going to be interesting to developers |
| 19:10 | cjl | data-entry form where? On googledocs or wiki? |
| 19:10 | m_stone | (at least, I find that I do) |
| 19:10 | marcopg_ | cr_lf: I mean, it might be by design, but it's most likely a design bug |
| 19:10 | cr_lf | if we can collect and do first line analysis at the test group level then the data that gets back to the devs will be of a higher quality... |
| 19:10 | in theory... | |
| 19:11 | marcopg_ | cr_lf: agreed on first line analysis, but I tend to think it should be responsibility of the test group |
| 19:11 | cjb | ok. so we are proposing a model.. well, two models.. one of which is: |
| 19:11 | marcopg_ | cr_lf: it's both difficult and very time consuming for someone else to take care of it |
| 19:11 | cjb | * testers do freehand report submission |
| 19:12 | cr_lf | marcopg_: sorry that's what I meant... I *am* in a first line test group... |
| 19:12 | cjb | * test group meets, looks it over, does triage and works out what's a legitimate bug |
| 19:12 | * test group files bugs? | |
| 19:12 | cr_lf | can't code for toffee... |
| 19:12 | cjb | .. and then, the other model is: |
| 19:12 | * testers do freehand submission | |
| 19:13 | * the test group doesn't scale well enough, so the testers themselves should decide whether or not their reports constitute bugs | |
| 19:13 | cr_lf | cjb: correct... but without the design doc how does the first line test group know what is legitimate or not... what we work off at the moment is the activity wiki user guide... |
| 19:13 | cjb | * they (or the test group?) files their resulting bugs |
| 19:13 | let's call those A and B for now. are there others being proposed? | |
| 19:14 | m_stone | cr_lf: by spending lots of time with the software and developing taste and judgement and intimate knowledge of what it's supposed to do? :) |
| 19:14 | cjb | cr_lf: I'm pretty sure *this* group has a good enough idea what legitimate bugs are |
| 19:14 | to the extent that I'm not going to be frustrated if they file a bug and it turns out it isn't a bug | |
| 19:14 | that's fine. it's not a big deal. | |
| 19:14 | we can deal with having bugs that we close. | |
| 19:14 | m_stone | (we're happy that you took the time to pursue the issue and to learn more about our work) |
| 19:14 | cr_lf | cjb and by *this* group you are referring to? |
| 19:15 | cjb | cr_lf: the people in this channel, who are.. the community test team thing |
| 19:15 | m_stone | (moreover, in short order, we know that you'll be able to help close not-bugs that other people fiel) |
| 19:15 | (if you felt so inclined) | |
| 19:15 | cjb | ("test group" is being overloaded here) |
| 19:15 | all of what m_stone said. | |
| 19:15 | cr_lf | ahh... is that community test on the dev side or community test on the tester side? |
| 19:15 | cjb | cr_lf: it doesn't matter |
| 19:16 | m_stone | cr_lf: I don't really understand the question. |
| 19:16 | cjb | if they're oart of the community testers, they're interested in the same work |
| 19:16 | s/oart/part/ | |
| 19:17 | m_stone | cjl, cr_lf: so anyway, returning to technology for a minute: I can absolutely see how the wiki stuff or the google spreadsheet would be great for running test parties and for getting people moving in the same direction. |
| 19:17 | cr_lf | ok... as I said, I can't code for toffee, but I can read code enough to work out what should be happening so I consider myself on the community test tester side... |
| 19:17 | cjl | m_stone: It has mostly to with lowering the floor for entry and allowing it to be franchised more easily. |
| 19:17 | m_stone | it meets an obvious need that testers have to see what people are interested in, what people have already done, etc. and to allocate effort accordingly. |
| 19:18 | cjl: yes, that too, by all means. | |
| 19:18 | cjl: I'm just trying to convince you that it solves only 1/4 of the problem. | |
| 19:18 | cr_lf | other testers may not have even that level of skill but stil want to participate... so we identify what they can do, how they should do it and provide a means to easily collect that info... |
| 19:18 | cjl | m_stone, the problem is that know one said it did |
| 19:19 | You assumed tha, but people were working on getting A in place and you wer asking about Z | |
| 19:19 | Yes, in the end of the day, a Trac bug must exist. | |
| 19:19 | m_stone | cjl: the other 3/4 include: communicating the results to deployers, e.g. through release notes, communicating them to hackers, e.g. by irc, mail, and tickets, and following through on the rest of the development life-cycle in order to get them fixed. |
| 19:19 | (or worked-around, etc.) | |
| 19:20 | cjl | m_stone: Did any one argue tha wasn't the case? |
| 19:20 | m_stone | cjl: by omission. |
| 19:20 | cjl | m_stone: That is why I felt you wer overly argumentative. |
| 19:21 | You wer not allowing the space in which an effort (only just starting) could feel it's way along a step at a time. | |
| 19:21 | cr_lf | right... I think we are all heading in the same direction but just from different start points... |
| 19:21 | cjl | Obviously a GoogleDoc does not scale across the scope of the project (vertically), but it could scale across multiple testing parties (horizontally). |
| 19:22 | Much of this started by the solo efforts of the welly testers and there is a sincere desire t ounderstand what they are doing and how it might be franchised. | |
| 19:22 | cr_lf | correct, and if we can get that info out in a reasonable fashion to the assigned dev then that might work nicely. |
| 19:23 | m_stone | is going to keep listening until cjl decides that he's ready to solve problems again, since he agrees with cjl that he's argumentative. |
| 19:24 | cr_lf: (incidentally, we don't really have "assigned devs"...) | |
| 19:24 | cjl | m_stone: At the moment the problem I am trying to solve is that your argumentative nature (in this case) interferred with some of the progress I would liked to have seen on exploring the middle ground between testers and devs. |
| 19:25 | cr_lf | m_stone: ok... but we will be aligning against an activity rather than a person so that's not really a problem |
| 19:26 | anyway... well past lunchtime here so I have to scoot... might go and buy a book in wikis... | |
| 19:26 | m_stone | cjl: that could be a good thing to work on. would you like to start with a description of said argumentative nature? or with a suggestion about how to achieve the same goals to which it was directed by different means? |
| 19:26 | cjl: or with a claim that those goals need not be pursued? | |
| 19:27 | cjb | it does seem like a less constructive thing to work on than what we're going to tell tabitha. |
| 19:27 | m_stone | :) |
| 19:28 | cjl | M-stone, perhaps by looking at "what does this solve" as opposed to "what does this NOT solve" you might have seen more merit in the discussion of the spreadsheet and the wiki. |
| 19:28 | mchua_ | is back |
| 19:28 | boggles at backlog | |
| 19:28 | starts to read | |
| 19:28 | m_stone | cjl: sure. that's could be a good thing to open our email to tabitha with. |
| 19:29 | mchua_ | is done reading. wow, this was a great discussion. |
| 19:29 | m_stone | mchua_: ... |
| 19:29 | cjl | I beleive teh point was teh the spreadsheet emerged spontaneously from the welly effort, it clearly solved "an issue" from their point of view. |
| 19:30 | m_stone | mchua_: actually, I find it contains rather more circumlocution than I prefer, but that's just personal preference, I guess... |
| 19:30 | mchua_ | I'm serious; I for one hadn't considered m_stone's point of view before, and that says to me that we (the test community, but it's my responsibility to make sure this happens) hasn't communicated well about what we're trying to do. |
| 19:30 | And that we recognize that there is much we need to be doing that we are not yet doing. | |
| 19:30 | m_stone: aye, but it did end up with a better understanding at the end, it seems. | |
| 19:30 | m_stone | mchua_: I admire your generous and positive view. :) |
| 19:30 | cjb | it would be pretty sweet to have a section in the release notes called "What The Testers Found" |
| 19:31 | garycmartin | Idealy the testing list would be used more as a first stop when a tester hits something odd, other testers could then re-test or help out a novice, and perhaps raise the issue to trac themselves if needed. That would only solve the tec side of trying to get bugs to people who can fix. The pressure seems to be that getting formal numbers so mgt can sign off easily is currently the higher goal. |
| 19:31 | cjb | with a description of which groups tested which parts of the release, and what they thought and stuff |
| 19:31 | that would be pretty grassroots, right there | |
| 19:31 | mchua_ | And for the record, cjb's "A" option is what I've been envisioning for the test community, at least. We're translators and advocators - making sure testers can get in "on the ground floor" easily, but that their work is transformed into a format and place that's easiest and most useful to developers. |
| 19:31 | m_stone | cjb: that would definitely be good. I said I'd help with some of that publishing for 8.2.0 and I dropped it on the floor. :( |
| 19:32 | mchua_ | "What the Testers Found" ++ ! |
| 19:32 | m_stone | cjl: so do we agree that there ought to be an email that starts off with a paragraph explaining why the Welly spreadsheets and the wiki stuff are helpful? |
| 19:33 | cjb | should we start up gobby? |
| 19:33 | mchua_ | And garycmartin, I really like that idea about discussion on the testing list... I've been feeling kind of lonely speaking to an empty room there, lately. What can we do to get that kind of discussion/exchange going? |
| 19:33 | cjb | for our e-mail description of this stuff? |
| 19:33 | m_stone | cjb: good idea |
| 19:33 | cjb | (which could maybe also function as minutes) |
| 19:33 | cjl | m_stone: sure |
| 19:33 | m_stone | cjl: great. |
| 19:33 | cjb | ok, gobby on pullcord |
| 19:33 | (.laptop.org) | |
| 19:34 | m_stone | (does anyone want assistance using gobby?) |
| 19:34 | cjb | document is "testgroup1" |
| 19:34 | garycmartin | mchua_: make sure willing testers get signed up to that list, make them welcome there, and start posting. |
| 19:34 | cjl | m_stone: In a full enough plan, it should also include why it is critical to get a bug filed (in the right tracker). |
| 19:34 | m_stone | cjl: that sounds promising. |
| 19:34 | cjl: I'd also like to see us mention other important artifacts like release notes. :) | |
| 19:35 | garycmartin | mchua_: right now test email reports/feedback go all over the place list wise. |
| 19:35 | mchua_ | fires up gobby |
| 19:35 | cjl | m_stone: I think we are agreed tha closing hte loop on testing means getting it back out to the user again (the tester acting as a surrogate for the user in the first place). |
| 19:35 | m_stone | that's a nice way of putting it! |
| 19:35 | garycmartin | mchua_: hey if the test list had interesting stuff I could even add it to my SOM generation so we'd have a weekly map of hot topics :-) |
| 19:36 | cjl | brb |
| 19:36 | mchua_ | garycmartin: Yeah... and just because we have "procedures" doesn't mean everyone knows about them or wants to follow them. |
| 19:36 | garycmartin: ...ooh, that would be awesome. | |
| 19:37 | garycmartin: Can you do it now, even before the list gets interesting, so we can watch its interestingness-increasing process? ;) | |
| 19:37 | marcopg | +1 about SOM! |
| 19:37 | garycmartin: it's really great to watch iaep on it | |
| 19:37 | garycmartin | mchua_: a (hopefully) focused list like testing should give some good mappings. |
| 19:37 | cjb | cjl, garycmartin, marcopg: are you guys conversant with gobby? |
| 19:37 | (don't want to leave anyone out unless they want to be) | |
| 19:37 | marcopg | mchua_: is the list completely open now? it didn't use to |
| 19:37 | m_stone | mchua_: ^^ |
| 19:38 | marcopg | cjb: I'm not sure I can get gobby to work on this connection :/ |
| 19:38 | cjb | ok |
| 19:38 | would it help if I put the doc in a web location and clicked save every now and then, or would you rather leave us to it? | |
| 19:38 | garycmartin | cjb: gobby, that's the chat + shared note taker? I think?? |
| 19:38 | cjb | garycmartin: that's right |
| 19:39 | mchua_ | marcopg: The archives are open to the public, and anyone can subscribe to it, if that's what you mean. |
| 19:39 | garycmartin | cjb: I'm on an XO here... |
| 19:39 | marcopg | mchua_: yup, cool |
| 19:39 | m_stone | garycmartin: it works fine on XOs (though the screen is a bit small) |
| 19:39 | cjb: and why aren't we doing this on a shared Write again? :) | |
| 19:40 | marcopg: ^^ | |
| 19:40 | garycmartin | m_stone: hey cool, didn't know |
| 19:40 | marcopg | m_stone: heh :/ |
| 19:40 | m_stone | garycmartin: yum install gobby |
| 19:40 | (or apt-get, perhaps) | |
| 19:40 | cjb: well, a google doc would be the other obvious choice.... | |
| 19:40 | garycmartin | m_stone: Trying yum (I might run out of NAND...) |
| 19:41 | m_stone | garycmartin: cool. |
| 19:42 | cjl | all, I'm afraid I need to run. m_stone mchua_ I will try t omake some notes and send them in an e-mail later. |
| 19:42 | mchua_ | thanks. cjl. |
| 19:43 | cjb | garycmartin: you could yum install gobby, but maybe a google doc is more sensible |
| 19:43 | m_stone | cjl: thanks. |
| 19:44 | marcopg | whats the hostname? |
| 19:44 | m_stone | mchua_: thoughts on the gobby notes so far? |
| 19:44 | marcopg: pullcord.laptop.org | |
| 19:44 | port 6522 | |
| 19:44 | mchua_ | m_stone: reading... |
| 19:45 | garycmartin | m_stone: 20M says yum, installing.... |
| 19:45 | m_stone | argh. erikg, duluu, and I need to eat. |
| 19:45 | cjb | looks like mstone has to dash |
| 19:45 | m_stone | fortunately, though, I think I already said everything I wanted to say. :) |
| 19:46 | marcopg | weee seem to work even on this crappy connection |
| 19:46 | cjb | holy crap mchua is a fast typer |
| 19:46 | m_stone | I look forward to seeing your email! |
| 19:46 | cjb | you don't realize it until you see lines of text race across the screen in real-time |
| 19:46 | garycmartin | cjb: tell me about it!! |
| 19:46 | marcopg | go go mchua_! :) |
| 19:46 | garycmartin | cjb: I have to spend most of irc reading back logs! |
| 19:50 | mchua_ | seriously, guys, I'm neck-and-neck with bjordan and dsd |
| 19:50 | when we were doing typeracer | |
| 19:50 | and erikg | |
| 19:50 | people in this office type scary fast | |
| 19:50 | cjb | I think you let them win |
| 19:50 | m_stone | and then there's sj... |
| 19:51 | mchua_ | more like I usually stink at accuracy but typeracer doesn't let you do that |
| 19:54 | garycmartin | hey I'm just getting to test the "your journal is full, please delete the rest of your life" dialogue :-) |
| 19:55 | marcopg | garycmartin: you use your xo quite a bit! |
| 19:56 | garycmartin | marcopg: dogfooding ;-) |
| 19:59 | marcopg | can't quite get used to this gobby thing |
| 19:59 | fears to edit ;) | |
| 20:02 | cjb | be bold! |
| 20:05 | hm, need a 5m break, will come back | |
| 20:11 | m_stone | mchua_: it's surprisingly coherent. |
| 20:11 | marcopg_ | silly connection :( |
| 20:11 | m_stone | mmm. :( |
| 20:12 | I think what's missing is more discussion about how these practices help encourage and enable people to give /more/ | |
| 20:12 | mchua_: ^^ | |
| 20:13 | both newbies and experienced wranglers | |
| 20:16 | wonders where the document went... | |
| 20:16 | (but has to leave to eat) | |
| 20:17 | garycmartin | m_stone: Arrrrrghhh.... was that me? There's no undo!!!!! |
| 20:17 | m_stone | garycmartin: there may be an undo. |
| 20:17 | marcopg_ | garycmartin: you deleted all of it?? ;) |
| 20:17 | m_stone | of a very hacky sort. |
| 20:18 | cjb | oh dear |
| 20:18 | I took a copy | |
| 20:18 | m_stone | thinks of gdb |
| 20:18 | garycmartin | ctrl-a while typing all, left looking at an l :-( |
| 20:18 | marcopg_ | hehehe |
| 20:18 | m_stone | but can't remember how to use it. |
| 20:19 | garycmartin | Blame the small XO keyboard :-O |
| 20:19 | marcopg_ | garycmartin: yeah it's all the hardware fault |
| 20:19 | garycmartin: that's also why sugar is so buggy | |
| 20:19 | garycmartin | I have the doc open still if someone knows the key or menu... |
| 20:19 | cjb | that's a save from before I left.. |
| 20:19 | garycmartin | marcopg_: ;-) |
| 20:19 | cjb | (new doc) |
| 20:20 | michael's working on a full recovery | |
| 20:21 | mchua_ | m_stone: uh... I'll... wait until the doc gets recovered. (Just read this.) |
| 20:21 | cjb | it didn't work |
| 20:21 | (sorry) | |
| 20:21 | so we have what's in the new gobby document | |
| 20:21 | testgroup1 (2) | |
| 20:21 | garycmartin | nuts, sorry folks :-( |
| 20:21 | cjb | I think it's maybe five mins old |
| 20:22 | so shouldn't be too bad.. mchua, want to try and recreate what's obviously missing? | |
| 20:22 | (since michael left) | |
| 20:22 | mchua_ | garycmartin: I did that once while coding with my computer architecture class team... I lost *all* our verilog for a lab, a good 2-hours of work. |
| 20:22 | They nearly killed me. | |
| 20:22 | cjb | erk |
| 20:22 | garycmartin | That's a good reason to keep me out of git reps! |
| 20:22 | marcopg_ | garycmartin: you are lucky that we are good people and we don't kill ;) |
| 20:23 | mchua_ | garycmartin: but the thing is that afterwards we looked at it and went "hey, actually, writing it a second time made it wayyy better." |
| 20:23 | cjb | garycmartin: actually, a git repo wouldn't have this problem, that's the point of them :) |
| 20:23 | marcopg_ | garycmartin: hehe git has history! |
| 20:23 | garycmartin | I found the undo, and it's disabled... |
| 20:23 | marcopg_: not if you delet the rep. | |
| 20:23 | mchua_ | garycmartin: so it ended up being a good thing. |
| 20:23 | marcopg_ | mchua_: hehe similar feeling when doing something stupid with code... |
| 20:24 | garycmartin: or if you forget to push ;) | |
| 20:25 | cjb | I think the new version of gobby has undo, but I guess I don't have it |
| 20:25 | mchua_ | m_stone: ok, looking through on how these help encourage and enable both noobs and experienced folks to help more... let's see |
| 20:25 | marcopg_ | garycmartin: see you can blame cjb ;) |
| 20:26 | wonder if Write has undo | |
| 20:26 | I *think* it's supposed to | |
| 20:26 | cjb | marcopg_: it doesn't have the helpful coloring yet |
| 20:26 | marcopg_ | hm, I thought they was adding it or something though |
| 20:27 | garycmartin | marcopg_: Write, yea, but not sure what happens in shared session. |
| 20:28 | marcopg_ | cjb: and anyway until it's so unreliable I guess coloring won't help things enough :) |
| 20:28 | garycmartin | I'm going to keep out of gobby, no undo is too dangerous for me... |
| 20:28 | marcopg_ | hehe |
| 20:28 | garycmartin: don't worry mchua_ will have it all redone in ten mins | |
| 20:28 | garycmartin: and much better even ;) | |
| 20:29 | garycmartin | marcopg_: I though is was already added (colour) but we ship old libs still. |
| 20:29 | marcopg_ | garycmartin: yeah something like that |
| 20:30 | garycmartin | hangs head in shame, not like we have time to burn... |
| 20:30 | marcopg_ | fears even more now and give up on editing completely ;) |
| 20:31 | garycmartin: we have so many things to do that wasting a little time will not make a difference ;) | |
| 20:31 | cjb | I guess google docs would have been the right answer |
| 20:31 | garycmartin | marcopg_: I did at least read it all through before hitting ctrl-a mid typing. |
| 20:32 | marcopg_ | garycmartin: if you had good memory you could just type it all then! :) |
| 20:32 | cjb | I think we've got the rationale stuff down well |
| 20:33 | mchua_ | agrees |
| 20:33 | garycmartin | marcopg_: :-b |
| 20:33 | cjb | we just need to argue why what we're proposing is, well, related to it |
| 20:33 | (or change what we're proposing) | |
| 20:34 | mchua_ | Actually, I wonder if the thing to do here is to take our rationale, and then say "therefore, we propose the following changes to [[Trac ticket workflow]]." |
| 20:34 | m_stone: ^? | |
| 20:37 | cjb | I started writing a section that has "Our" in the title and it creeps me out, so I'll paste: |
| 20:37 | Our utopia: | |
| 20:37 | ----------- | |
| 20:37 | ||
| 20:37 | Testers find a process that is unburdensome and helpful. They know that they can be as involved as they want to in the work done on their bugs. They're asked, if they want to be, things like "Do you think this change would solve your problem?". Their work is documented, shared, appreciated, and credited. Someone running an OLPC/Sugar deployment can look up what tests have been performed on a component; this information should even | |
| 20:37 | be part of the release notes for software. ... | |
| 20:38 | I guess having a developer write down what a tester's utopia is is pretty arrogant. ;-) | |
| 20:39 | mchua_ | cjb: Write down the developer's utopia, then. :) |
| 20:40 | cjb: That sounds pretty good to me for a n=1 sample size of testers, though. ;) | |
| 20:40 | cjb | there |
| 20:40 | mchua_ | :) |
| 20:44 | cjb: how's that? | |
| 20:44 | (in gobby) | |
| 20:44 | cjb | testers have similar utopias to developers! |
| 20:44 | looks great. | |
| 20:46 | hey, what's the name for this group of people? community test team, or something? | |
| 20:48 | mchua_ | cjb: Semi-formally, "Community testing." |
| 20:48 | cjb: Honestly, I strongly believe it should be "testing." | |
| 20:48 | (or "QA.") | |
| 20:48 | That our QA efforts should *all* be community efforts. | |
| 20:48 | Much like development. You don't have "Community development." You have... "development." (Or at least the demarcation doesn't seem as strong.) | |
| 20:49 | cjb | is true. |
| 20:49 | mchua_ | (And a lot of that is the techteam seeing it that way, and treating it that way, and it's *great.* And I want that for testing, badly.) |
| 20:49 | And the community sees it that way too, I think. For development. | |
| 20:49 | It's all mutually reinforcing. | |
| 20:49 | cjb | (My only problem is that "testing group", and even "Testing Group", doesn't make it clear whether it's wellington or us.) |
| 20:50 | i.e. the small group of people doing testing, or the small-but-hopefully-a-bit-larger group of people who've taken responsibility to facilitate testing in general | |
| 20:52 | think I'm out of energy for now -- hopefully we can mail out what's in the gobby document | |
| 20:53 | mchua_ | Yeah, I'm flagging as well... "local testing" vs "testing," I think is the distinction we need to make |
| 20:53 | ah. and i have manuals to write tonight. hurrah. | |
| 20:53 | m_stone, are you the one pulling the send-lever on this? | |
| 20:54 | cjb | that could work, although "testing" might not disimply "local testing" enough there |
| 20:54 | m_stone left about a half hour ago :) | |
| 20:54 | not sure if he's coming back tonight.. probably not. | |
| 20:56 | mchua_ | oh. |
| 20:57 | cjb, garycmartin (anybody else): would you like to send it? If not, I can do it. | |
| 20:57 | garycmartin | mchua_: I dare not for fear of deletion! Scared for life. |
| 20:58 | mchua_: (have just carefully removed all the gobby installs from my XO) | |
| 20:58 | cjb | http://pastebin.com/m75eb1c40 |
| 20:58 | for a copy :) | |
| 20:58 | garycmartin | cjb: :-) |
| 21:00 | mchua_: so will release mgt get enough data to feel comfortable picking activities? | |
| 21:01 | cjb | falling asleep, off to get the T |
| 21:01 | mchua_ | g'night, cjb! thanks. |
| 21:01 | garycmartin | cjb: night! |
| 21:02 | mchua_ | garycmartin: Well, we've only tested Activities that they've already picked, so far - the G1G1 this year. |
| 21:02 | garycmartin: I think it'll make them feel more comfortable picking Activities. Probably make potential users more comfortable buying in and using it. | |
| 21:03 | garycmartin: My primary goal in starting with Activity testing was really to build a test community. | |
| 21:03 | garycmartin | mchua_: G1G1 so true. I guess this is a dry run for the 9.1 pass. |
| 21:03 | mchua_ | garycmartin: (And yeah, it's a dry run for 9.1, too.) |
| 21:05 | garycmartin: Activity testing is an easy entry project for the community to take on; it's immediately useful (in that it raises comfort levels across the board - users, developers, management, etc. - about the decisions they *have* to be making) - but isn't a blocker. | |
| 21:05 | Um... | |
| 21:05 | Gosh, that was badly phrased. | |
| 21:05 | Activity testing is more like greasing squeaky, stuck gears than adding a missing gear entirely. | |
| 21:05 | It makes the things that were already happening, happen more smoothly, more nicely, more... comfortably. | |
| 21:05 | garycmartin | mchua_: I think I got the point :-) |
| 21:06 | mchua_ | garycmartin: *grin* Conciseness: yet another skill I haven't learned yet. |
| 21:12 | garycmartin | mchua_: need to go filter down my email before it grows too much ;-) thanks for the meeting and sorry I made you do more work (ctrl-a) |
| 21:20 | mchua_ | hey, no worries. thanks for coming. |
| 21:20 | oh! nearly forgot | |
| 21:20 | #endmeeting |