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#olpc-meeting, 2008-12-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
19:06 mchua and send to the testing ml after
19:06 joachimp hmm, eek, 278MB avai.l
19:06 lfaraone #topic NANDBlaster
19:06 Any comments/questions about it?
19:07 No?
19:07 Mitch_Bradley a backport wouldn't help, because that would have to be signed too.  Might as well sign the firmware
19:07 garycmartin lfaraone: Its just for clean installs or cloning, right?
19:07 lfaraone garycmartin: Yep.
19:08 garycmartin: Olpc-update is a userland tool, this is before linux is even loaded.
19:08 Mitch_Bradley the nandblaster can be configured to preserve the user partition if the NAND is partitioned
19:08 m_stone garycmartin: (we hope that the partioning support will one day be useful for user-data-preserving updates)
19:08 lfaraone Mitch_Bradley: Are we doing partitioning in NAND currently?
19:08 m_stone but that's not yet ready to test, I think.
19:08 garycmartin Mitch_Bradley: I have 3 XOs here, can use 1 for sending and 2 for receiving.
19:08 Mitch_Bradley garycmartin: yes
19:08 joachimp just checking, is it now safe to use ext3 for backing up my home dir?
19:09 lfaraone joachimp: onto flash? ext3 isn't the best thing for NAND systems.
19:09 joachimp just temp, any other ideas, jffs?
19:09 lfaraone joachimp: tarballs work on  any FS
19:10 garycmartin Mitch_Bradley: what measures of RF environment do you need?
19:10 joachimp yeah, i guess I could have done that...
19:10 Mitch_Bradley don't know what you mean
19:10 garycmartin Mitch_Bradley: (have about 8-12 active AP visible from my location)
19:11 lfaraone Mitch_Bradley: can this be turned into a userland tool to work with the active antenna on an XS?
19:11 joachimp I've just had so many vfats fail on me, and tar anything can't withstand that...
19:11 Mitch_Bradley lfaraone: in principle it could be, but the AA is not a product, so I don't see what use that is for now
19:11 lfaraone Mitch_Bradley: well, I have a few AAs (two) around.
19:11 m_stone Mitch_Bradley: I think garycmartin is asking whether he should try, in some fashion, to measure issues like frame loss rates, the bandwidth available on the channels being used, etc.
19:12 Mitch_Bradley well, I'm not interested in spending time on something that is not available
19:12 m_stone or to perform the test under conditions which vary those parameters, e.g. by running a rate-limited file transfer between two other computers on the same channel.
19:12 joachimp If NANDblaster is one directional, how do the clients conferm that they have recived the full payload?
19:12 Mitch_Bradley I'd be interested to know aggregate data rates as reported by the test, and the number of passes, as a function of RF congestion
19:12 garycmartin Mitch_Bradley: When testing, pass/fail reports would be better for you if you knew how bad the RF environment was (fails in very noisy environments would be expected, and we could have an idea what a 'noisy RF environment' might be)
19:13 m_stone garycmartin: well, perhaps a first question is "does it ever fail?"
19:13 Mitch_Bradley garycmartin: agreed.  If you have any suggestions for how to quantify that, please suggest.
19:13 m_stone (in your test)
19:13 Mitch_Bradley joachimp: the sender sends over and over with error correction packets.  The receiver waits until it gets a complete set.
19:14 joachimp and then visual conf on the client, that the flash starts?
19:15 Mitch_Bradley yes
19:16 garycmartin Want us to use the new 'f'series firmware just anounce right?
19:16 Mitch_Bradley but it has to write partial data to the flash before it gets a complete set, because the RAM isn't big enough
19:16 use Q2E24
19:17 garycmartin Hmmm, I see q2e23 and then jumps to q2f01
19:18 Mitch_Bradley thats because this meeting has prevented me from finishing the crank turn on e24
19:18 garycmartin (go/Firmware on wiki)
19:18 joachimp And the client needs <size of image file> free space to recive?
19:18 garycmartin Mitch_Bradley: :-)
19:18 joachimp: the client is WIPED...
19:18 Mitch_Bradley the client uses the NAND to hold intermediate results
19:19 garycmartin Ah, good point
19:19 m_stone garycmartin: so I presume that you're going to write up the actual test case you intend to perform somewhere.
19:19 garycmartin: where is that going to go?
19:19 joachimp so, failure, is not an option...
19:19 Mitch_Bradley then when complete, it overwrites the intermediate space with the error-corrected data
19:19 this is intended for use in deployments where they want to reimage thousands of machines
19:19 lfaraone Mitch_Bradley: why was f01 a new seriess?
19:20 Mitch_Bradley smithbone refactored the EC code
19:20 m_stone (significantly)
19:20 (or so I'm told)
19:20 joachimp I think should be able to get access to at least 4 XOs for testing this in various RF eviroments
19:20 smithbone yep.
19:20 lfaraone I can test about... 10 XOs?
19:21 smithbone 2 new build systems and large restructure of the ec code.
19:21 Mitch_Bradley it would be interesting to see how antenna orientation affects results
19:21 and also distance from the sender
19:21 m_stone Mitch_Bradley: and, in general, since this is a big firmware update, it would be good to rerun the smoketest, right?
19:21 Mitch_Bradley yes
19:21 although E24 is not such a big update
19:22 smoketest needed more on F01 than on E24
19:22 garycmartin m_stone: hmm, I'd usually run and take notes on the test locally. Post to dev (or testing I guess) and only when it stops bouncing (i.e respond to query/requests), would I consider writing it up. The wiki is too full of junk that all the good stuff is already too hard to find.
19:22 m_stone garycmartin: fine by me; I had nothing special in mind; I just wanted to know where to look.
19:23 joachimp Q2E24?
19:24 Mitch_Bradley lord, it's hard to do a release when lots of people are asking questions
19:24 joachimp sorry about that
19:25 garycmartin joachimp: I see something in dev.laptop.org/pub/firmware/q2e24 but lets wait for Mitch_Bradley :-)
19:26 m_stone fyi, for people working on resurrecting [[Friends in Testing]], I think that 'olpc-update 8.2.1-790' will now work. (though you'll get an unsigned build very very much like 8.2-767')
19:27 joachimp m_stone: updating now, thanks
19:28 Mitch_Bradley http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Firmware_q2e24
19:30 m_stone greebo: do you have any questions?
19:31 greebo m_stone, no, we'll get into testing (and repeat the videochat testing in particular) next Saturday. I'll have to backread this channel in a few hours as I have to run out the door
19:31 m_stone cool; I can't wait to see what you find!
19:33 garycmartin Mitch_Bradley: thanks Mitch, will test q2e24 here and will email report to dev/testing.
19:33 Mitch_Bradley copy wmb@laptop.org on the report
19:36 garycmartin blast. Just remembered one of the XOs is not allowed a dev key so I'm locked out of OFW.
19:36 m_stone ?
19:36 Mitch_Bradley not allowed?
19:37 garycmartin m_stone: it reports it's UUID does not match your records and tells me to contact help@... I've been speaking with adam a month or so on this now I guess.
19:39 Mitch_Bradley oh, it's one of those where Quanta botched the records after pulling it out during FQA
19:39 garycmartin The serial number written on the machine (lable inside battery compartment) does not match the serial number in firmware. It looks like a simple typo (last 2 numbers are wrong). I've tried the auth server with both versions but still get thu UUID is incorrect error.
19:40 m_stone Mitch_Bradley: perhaps he should send mail to scott?
19:40 (Scott wrangles that database)
19:40 Mitch_Bradley m_stone: I suppose so
19:40 garycmartin m_stone: :-)
19:41 Mitch_Bradley and more questions before I leave?
19:41 any
19:41 m_stone garycmartin: we take devkeys not working Very Seriously. if you know any other people who've had problems, have them speak up.
19:41 joachimp whats with the reboot to allow SPI writing?
19:41 m_stone Mitch_Bradley: thanks for stopping by. :)
19:41 Mitch_Bradley thanks for the testing help, folks
19:42 joachimp joachimp: flashed here, it boots... I'll try out the multicast flash this weekend
19:42 garycmartin m_stone: Thanks. No, it's just me here.
19:43 m_stone:  Mitch_Bradley  thanks guys, I'll go do some testing (Colors! testing at the moment for Wade, Wacom tables support is great!)
19:44 m_stone joachimp, garycmartin: thanks!
19:44 joachimp m_stone: thanks for your hard work!
19:44 you too Mitch_Bradley
19:44 m_stone thank mchua, not me. :)
19:44 joachimp Oh, I have!
19:44 m_stone good.
19:54 lfaraone #endmeeting
18:00 mchua WOO! all righty, agenda is at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]etings/2008-12-11
18:00 greebo "and just after the break..."
18:00 mchua we have a very very short agenda
18:00 # 1 Previous meeting's action items
18:00 # 2 Activity test case reporting framework
18:00 # 3 Testing Jams
18:00 # 4 Joyride/8.2.1 Testing: The Challenge
18:00 Any additions?
18:01 I *think* the first 3 are going to be preeeetty fast, esp. since the wellington test group doesn't appear to be here today
18:01 m_stone (hi folks!)
18:01 mchua which is great, 'cause #4 is the cool part ;)
18:01 greebo we are going to be kicking off aussie test groups in January, so that will hopefully help :)
18:01 mchua m_stone: I'm glad you're here, I wanted to ping you specifically on #4 when it comes up
18:01 greebo: <3 <3 <3 <3
18:01 local test groups make me *so* happy.
18:01 hello, garycmartin!
18:01 garycmartin Hi mchua
18:02 mchua all right, if there's no new business, I'll start with # 1 Previous meeting's action items which can be summarized as "there weren't any new ones," and that's all
18:02 ...so that was fast.
18:02 # 2 Activity test case reporting framework
18:03 For the newcomers this week, we have (er, "had" - we'll see why shortly) a Big Project of testing all the G1G1 Activities before Dec. 25
18:03 which is rapidly approaching
18:03 *but* I think we're in excellent shape to make it
18:03 garycmartin mchua: where are the reports going?
18:03 mchua (we've been doing lots of capacity building so far, and now we actually have the ability to test all those Activities, and the tools we need to do so - before we didn't)
18:03 garycmartin: I'm glad you asked!
18:04 (And I'm going to need help later tonight putting this on the http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing page)
18:04 So we have our list of G1G1 Activities on that page, massive thanks to Caryl, skierpage, garycmartin, marcopg
18:05 And we have a notion of what it means for them to be tested: that's two things, (1) smoke tested and (2) exploratory tested
18:05 the first one's easy and fast, the second is more of a "I'm going to sit down and sprint for 2-4 hours on an Activity, maybe with a friend" thing
18:06 Smoke testing test results are... ah, shoot, where's that link? they go into a google docs spreadsheet that Carl made.
18:06 Let me see if I can pull that link up; if not I'll find it right after the meeting
18:06 garycmartin (I have same issue finding that link)
18:07 mchua http://spreadsheets.google.com[…]K_3IlsHBpwk1EFNcQ
18:07 whoops, sorry, that's the spreadsheet not the form
18:07 http://spreadsheets.google.com[…]K_3IlsHBpwk1EFNcQ
18:07 that is the form
18:07 #LINK http://spreadsheets.google.com[…]K_3IlsHBpwk1EFNcQ
18:08 cjb ooh
18:08 shiny
18:08 joachimp nice
18:08 mchua If that's filled out for an Activity, we call that Activity smoke tested, for the purpose of this exercise
18:08 so mad props to Carl for that
18:08 (Note that this isn't permanent testing infrastructure, necessarily; all of our tools and practices are new, so after Dec. 25 we're going to step back and go "okay, how did that work?" and maybe change some things)
18:08 (but this is what we have for now)
18:08 greebo ooh, shiny!
18:09 garycmartin (need the link somewhere useful I'm on an XO and cant click/type it now)
18:09 mchua can someone email garycmartin the link?
18:09 greebo If I do a testing sprint saturday week (the 20th) is that too late? Want to give some notice
18:09 mchua so for exploratory testing, that's much more difficult, but we have a notion of what it means for that to be "done," too
18:09 greebo: YES
18:09 cjb garycmartin: it's in the meeting minutes now, at least
18:09 greebo k
18:10 mchua greebo: that's agenda item #3: now that we have these things, it's time to hold test sprints and parties ;)
18:10 greebo: so we'll get to that in just a sec
18:10 garycmartin cjb: thanks
18:10 mchua exploratory testing is going to go in the table at the bottom, here http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing
18:10 #LINK http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1[…]_testing#Progress
18:11 garycmartin mchua: looking at page, so what actually goess in a fiels, pass/fail/yes/no?
18:11 mchua: my name (as a tester)
18:11 mchua so again, we know all of those steps, they're mostly contingent on creating test cases like http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Tests/Activity/Analyze and running them
18:11 garycmartin: for exploratory testing?
18:11 garycmartin mchua: (so we can count)
18:11 greebo mchua, the g1g1 activities bundle, will it be the normal activities bundle too?
18:11 garycmartin mchua: no smoke.
18:13 greebo mchua, so you want us to fill in the collection form _and_ the progress table? wouldn't it be better for someone to collabte the feedback from the collection forms and fill in the progress table from there so there is a basic sanity check??
18:13 mchua garycmartin: ah, yes - okay, so maybe some things aren't 100% specified. I'd like wiki usernames, with wiki userpages containing emails, but we should write that down.
18:13 greebo: I think the g1g1 activities bundles is the normal activities bundle, but I'm not sure i totally understand the question
18:13 greebo k, just asking what you answered :) This work will be useful in the broad case, not just for G1G1 :)
18:14 mchua greebo: right, that's why we're using semantic mediawiki for the test cases, so that the table on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1[…]_testing#Progress will automagically be filled in
18:14 greebo ah, cool :) yay!
18:14 mchua greebo: it *isn't* hooked completely up yet
18:14 garycmartin mchua: aha, ok...
18:15 mchua: the 'blank ness' make more sense now.
18:15 mchua so here's what we need, in the next 24 hours (I'm going to be working on it after all of my meetings tonight, but *will need help*)
18:15 1. we need to specify the form fields in http://spreadsheets.google.com[…]K_3IlsHBpwk1EFNcQ completely (as garycmartin pointed out, what exactly does "Tester" mean?)
18:16 2. We need to find the semantic mediawiki testcases for every activity in http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1[…]_testing#Progress and hook them into that table
18:16 3. We need to, when applicable, edit/reformat the semantic mediawiki testcases for the Activities listed in http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1[…]_testing#Progress so that they /can/ be hooked into that table
18:17 and 4. we need to start running tests to fill all of these tables in ;)
18:17 *none* of these need any sort of executive decision (though they may need some semantic mediawiki knowhow)
18:17 cjl mchua for 2) start with http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Category:Test_cases ?
18:17 garycmartin mchua: wow, actuall testing seems like the easy bit...
18:17 mchua by that, I mean if you're the first one running through http://spreadsheets.google.com[…]K_3IlsHBpwk1EFNcQ, and you go "but i don't know what that term means!" decide it, write it down, and then put in your results
18:17 garycmartin: in comparison, it is. ;)
18:18 tabitha Hello
18:18 mchua cjl: Yes.
18:18 tabitha: hey!
18:18 tabitha Wow you guys are talking about using the spreadsheet from NZ - awesome
18:18 mchua tabitha: it's beautiful.
18:18 tabitha: how do we get edit privs on the form field descriptions?
18:19 tabitha Carl made it - think he gave someone edit rights, I just check
18:19 greebo i can help with tests in about 4 hours, but can't do much with the rest
18:19 mchua So, what I'd like to do is call for volunteers on 1, 2, and 3 for the next 24 hours - it doesn't mean you have to get it finished, but it does mean that I'll be looking to ping you in the next 24 hours asking if you can help work on it
18:19 greebo: understood, that would be awesome
18:19 tabitha yes - skierpage
18:19 greebo ok, I'll volunteer for 1 and 4
18:19 joachimp okay, sure!
18:19 greebo tabitha, hi! Pia here :) great to meet you :)
18:20 tabitha http://spreadsheets.google.com[…]HBpwk1EFNcQ&hl=en
18:20 joachimp I'll can help later tonight, and tomorrow in the early afternoon
18:20 mchua awesome, anyone for a hand on 2 and 3? I'm going to look for skierpage, but am also willing to teach folks who want to learn the magic of semantic mediawiki (as much as I can, anyhow)
18:20 joachimp: thanks!
18:20 so I'd like to move on from that, since I think we are in good shape to get that ready for the next thing...
18:21 # 3 Testing Jams
18:21 So, I realized that I'm a *lousy* person to write this page: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Testing_Jam
18:21 joachimp I'm pretty well versed in Wiki, but I don't know much about semantic mediawiki
18:21 mchua joachimp: I'll make sure that you learn everything you need to know (and then some... ;)
18:21 it's pretty sweet stuff
18:22 though skierpage is totally the master here, and I learned most of what I know from him
18:22 so anyway, testing jams, http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Testing_Jam
18:22 I realized I'm a lousy person to write that page because I've run so many Jams by now I think it's second nature / obvious / all that sort of badness where I take the things you need to know and do for granted
18:22 So
18:23 what I'd like, actually, is to have people who *want* to run test sprints - but don't know how - write in that page as we teach them
18:23 greebo mchua, I think tabitha is probably a great person to write up how to do a testing jam
18:23 mchua by "we," I mean that I'm looking around the room and seeing people like tabitha who has been doing that for ages in Wellington, and the things they're doing there should be a model and an inspiration to us all.
18:23 greebo: jinx!
18:23 tabitha OMG I am being suggested to do stuff
18:23 mchua greebo, I imagine you're already quite well-versed in this sort of thing as well :)
18:24 greebo mchua, I'd be happy to update it once we do more of them :)
18:24 cjb tabitha: I'll distract them, you run away!
18:24 mchua joachimp, I hear you did something like this with repairs at SFSU
18:24 (last week, was it?)
18:24 greebo mchua, I've done testing personally, but most of our events have been intro days. keen to get into actual testing days, and the one of the 20th will kick it off nicely
18:24 I'll announce today
18:24 cjb, heh :)
18:24 mchua greebo: YAY! thank you!
18:25 joachimp mchua: saturday I'm tearing an XO apart for the group...
18:25 mchua so the testing parties will be the big drivers, testers, and "end-users" of the test case reporting system we just discussed - when you run the first bunch of testing jams, there will be rough spots,and I want to make sure you've got the ability to blast through those rough spots when you hit them
18:25 aa: hey, welcome!
18:25 joachimp: excellent!
18:25 aa mchua: hola!
18:25 xobot aa: by the way, homunq_ told me to tell you '¿vas a pagar los dos mil dolares tu solo?' 1 day, 7 hours, 25 minutes and 18 seconds ago (on Wed Dec 10 17:59:07 2008)
18:26 tabitha joachimp - tearing XO apart - that sounds like a good idea -we havent done that
18:26 joachimp We are also going to help install some new keyboards... and a mass 767 upgrade for those that are lagging
18:26 http://opensource.sfsu.edu/node/592
18:27 mchua aa: we were just discussing running testing parties, do you know anyone around that might want to hold a smallish test event in the next 2 weeks?
18:27 greebo I pull them apart regularly :) Just did my first screen replacement yesterday :)
18:27 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/12/[…]-screen-in-an-xo/
18:27 joachimp, awesome
18:27 mchua ooh, joachimp and greebo, I have repair videos and docs to send to you then
18:27 anyway
18:27 testing parties
18:27 joachimp greebo: great!, yes please mchua!
18:28 aa mchua: you mean here in Uruguay?
18:28 mchua aa: yes
18:28 aa agh, that'll be difficult, with holidays coming up
18:28 mchua as far as test parties go, what do we have? greebo, tabitha, joachimp, it would be awesome if you could hold test parties yourselves - even better if you could, since you know how to run these things already, find 1-3 people who could run a test party
18:28 lfaraone: hey! we're looking for someone in DC to run a testing party
18:28 lfaraone: any ideas?
18:29 lfaraone mchua: heh.
18:29 aa mchua: I can certainly talk about it with some people
18:29 lfaraone mchua: I could do so, but who'd attend?
18:29 tabitha mchua - what is a test party? we get together every saturday - we write up and send to testing@ list and enter bug tracs (respond to questions about them too) and update the spreadsheet we made and share with you - what else should we do?
18:29 greebo I'll ask around. We could certainly do a party each in Melbourne, Sydney and Adelaide, as there are already communities developing there
18:30 mchua aa: yeah, the holidays are coming up... this would be a "here, we're going to give you everything you need, instructions, and - if you arrange this with a bunch of us - be online for standby questions/help, if you can get (1) people and (2) XOs in a room together for 3 hours with music and food"
18:30 greebo: <3
18:30 lfaraone: well, the hard work of the test party facilitator is really in getting (1) XOs, (2) people, and (3) food into Some Location with Internet Access
18:30 greebo I actually have to run to another meeting. Is there anything else I can help with?
18:30 mchua for 3 hours (my guess)
18:30 lfaraone mchua: heh. 1 and 3 are _easy_!
18:31 mchua lfaraone: #2, then :)
18:31 lfaraone mchua: (I have plenty of spare lappys from repair centers, and nortel lets us use their conf rooms whenever)
18:31 mchua greebo: yes - I'll catch up with you later, will send you an email when the logs go out?
18:31 tabitha we have people (usually half dozen or more) and XOs (almost always enough for everyone) and food (as we are testing in a pub so we buy coffee and food there) and music (as live band plays in afternoons)
18:31 mchua lfaraone: well then! think you can find people, or someone to find people, and a date?
18:31 greebo k
18:31 aa mchua: where can I find the tests we'll be running?
18:31 tabitha internet access is currently me sharing my 3g aircard
18:31 mchua tabitha: like I said, you folks are the model for what we're going to be doing in a lot of other places over the next 2 weeks :)
18:31 tabitha we have every saturday as our date
18:32 lfaraone mchua: sure. assuming I can find someone to find ppl.
18:32 mchua aa: They're a bit earlier in the meeting logs - I'll send them out to you (and everyone) afterwards
18:32 aa mchua: thanks!
18:32 lfaraone mchua: what's the range of acceptable weekend dates for you?
18:32 (is there a deadline?)
18:32 mchua lfaraone: awesome; we'll keep working on that after the meeting... we want test results in by Dec. 25
18:32 lfaraone: so anytime between yesterday and then, really
18:33 joachimp mchua: I will see if I can grab some more people on saturday for activity testing!
18:33 mchua # ACTION so, lessee... people I to follow up with on running test parties... tabitha (who's already doing it, and it's a matter of getting Everyone Else To Do That Too, yay), joachimp, lfaraone, greebo, aa (for my reference later)
18:33 #ACTION so, lessee... people I to follow up with on running test parties... tabitha (who's already doing it, and it's a matter of getting Everyone Else To Do That Too, yay), joachimp, lfaraone, greebo, aa (for my reference later)
18:33 (whoops, no space)
18:34 anything else, anyone else that might be interested or know folks who would be? gregdek, know any locals or Fedora folks we might tap for a short sprint? Should I ping you on that laterlike?
18:34 I'd like to make sure we have time for # 4 Joyride/8.2.1 Testing: The Challenge
18:34 gregdek mchua: Do you want this to be part of The Seventy?
18:34 mchua because that's what's got me *really* revved up here, and I'd like to share the happiness ;)
18:35 joachimp I <3 joyride (most of the time) :)
18:35 tabitha If anyone wants to see how we do it - look at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Projects/WellyNZTesters and http://www.flickr.com/photos/t[…]2157610061263130/ for evidence
18:35 mchua gregdek: let's give them 3 options for the short term: (1) run a test party, (2) joyride, and then (3) make your own other thing to do if you don't like any of the above two
18:35 #LINK http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Projects/WellyNZTesters
18:35 gregdek mchua: Sure.
18:35 mchua #LINK http://www.flickr.com/photos/t[…]2157610061263130/
18:35 gregdek: danke.
18:36 tabitha: Oh my gosh, you folks have *documentation.* have I told you recently how wonderful you are?
18:36 gregdek mchua: Will this be part of your recruitment pitch later?  :)
18:36 mchua gregdek: yes.
18:36 gregdek Eggscellent.
18:36 mchua #ACTION mchua owes gregdek a recruitment email for The Seventy
18:36 The Magnificent Seventy
18:36 ivazquez Sorry I'm late folks, I had no idea I needed to be here.
18:37 mchua welcome, ivazquez! attendance is optional, but testing meetings tend to be exciting. ;)
18:37 then again, I'm biased...
18:37 I'd like to move on to the last agenda item, if everyone feels like test parties are all set to be followed up on?
18:37 s/?/.
18:37 is trying to not end statements with questions nowadays.
18:37 tabitha What do we need - can I put that on the action list? We need to have one person who checks in with us about technical stuff - e.g. we have noticed our XOs are running very slow right now - maybe there is something we should be doing like complete overhaul to clean them up. We could do with stronger direction (if you want us to focus our energy on one thing then tell us!).
18:38 mchua hm - tabitha, how many hours from now is your saturday testing sprint? (I'm not doing a great job converting timezones in my head right now)
18:38 Mitch_Bradley Hola
18:38 mchua hi, Mitch_Bradley !
18:38 Mitch_Bradley hi mel
18:39 mchua tabitha: I really, really need to follow up with you on this stuff, I know... I'm sorry I haven't done it well enough earlier (and that I keep putting it off)
18:39 let's see
18:39 tabitha Well it is now Friday lunch time, and we test on Saturdays starting at 10.30am (ish) and go to 1pm / 2pm - if we get very excited we go through to about 4pm
18:39 mchua tabitha: before you came, we had a list of tasks that needed to be done to totally prep the test case system for this (it's about 95% done, and the last 5% is known, just has to happen)
18:40 tabitha: okay, so something like 19 hours or so-ish
18:40 m_stone Mitch_Bradley: mel organized a nice meeting of community-testers like garycmartin, tabitha, and greebo.
18:40 Mitch_Bradley: the final item on her meeting agenda concerns testing pertaining to joyride & 8.2.1
18:41 mchua tabitha: I'll make sure you get that list of "here's the test case prep that needs to happen to get that from 95% to 100% done" in the next 8 hours
18:41 greebo k, mchua that'd be great
18:41 m_stone given our recent conversation in devel, I thought you might be able to offer some tasty suggestions.
18:41 mchua tabitha: the test case prep will give us the list of further things that need to be done ("fill in these test cases") and then if you guys can start blasting through that list, that would be great
18:41 m_stone tabitha, greebo: Mitch has been hard at work on NANDBlaster, which we think might make deployment's lives a lot easier.
18:42 greebo m_stone, cool!
18:42 mchua tabitha: also in the next 8 hours I'll send some thoughts on how we can get your prior testing results into that reporting format, because I suspect that you folks have already made us at *least* halfway to our "test all G1G1 activities" goal
18:42 tabitha: does that sound ok?
18:42 Mitch_Bradley I would like for people to try out all the different NANDblaster options as listed in the instructions on the wiki, in various RF environments.
18:42 tabitha mchua - all okay
18:43 mchua Mitch_Bradley: sweet. we're just about to segue into 8.2.1 testing, and NANDblaster is part of that, so I'm glad you're here.
18:43 m_stone greebo, tabitha: edmcnierney is trying to make a decision within the next week or so about whether nandblaster is shippable in 8.2.1 or whether it needs to wait for a later release.
18:43 mchua tabitha: allrighty, thanks - and I need to fly out to NZ at some point and buy you all a round of drinks. you've been amazing.
18:43 gregdek mchua: Get Ed to send you to LCA.  :)
18:43 mchua m_stone, Mitch_Bradley: one sec, let's give everyone some background first
18:43 gregdek: ...oh gosh, I wish
18:43 tabitha you will see on our list of what we have done - that we have tested for G1G1 - chat, paint, terminal record, analyse, speak, read, browse, moon, implode, maze and memorise
18:43 mchua Anything else on test parties? We need to move on
18:44 tabitha: !!! tha'ts even better than I thought
18:44 tabitha we just keep testing from the G1G1 activity list a different set of activities every weekend
18:44 we write it on our project page
18:44 mchua okay, guys, I think this calls for a round of applause for the wellington testers
18:44 greebo Mitch_Bradley, great, I'll add that to our testing
18:44 Mitch_Bradley I'm pretty sure NANDblaster is shippable; it basically works, and rather well.  I'm looking for corner cases that need to get cleaned up.
18:44 greebo mchua, yeah, you _need_ to come to lca!
18:45 m_stone mchua: maybe if you gave a talk there, someone would help sponsor your travel?
18:45 lfaraone Mitch_Bradley: why isn't it documented on the wiki?
18:45 erikg greebo: dsaxena and i were accepted for a talk.  looks like i don't have the money to go to lca.
18:45 lfaraone Mitch_Bradley: scratch that, just need to add a redir.
18:45 mchua greebo: m_stone: greebo: erk! uh, can I talk with you about LCA outside the meeting?
18:45 Mitch_Bradley lfaraone: because it is docomented on the wiki
18:46 dgilmore m_stone: i put in two talk proposals for LCA  both got rejected
18:46 dsaxena erikg: i decided not to go
18:46 tabitha everyone who comes to NZ will have the opportunity to present at Wellington testing - we will provide a venue and buy you drinks and lunch
18:46 dsaxena :(
18:46 mchua okay, guys, we need to get to joyride testing
18:46 erikg dsaxena: sorry to hear
18:46 m_stone back to testing now. :)
18:46 mchua tabitha: I'll take you up on that soon as I figure out how :)
18:46 SO!
18:46 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]008-12-11#Joyride.2F8.2.1_Testing:_The_Challenge
18:46 (for those who read fast.)
18:46 erikg tabitha: typically my visits to nz occupy me for five months or so...
18:46 mchua The short version is that we've been challenged to a friendly head-to-head competition with OLPC's internal QA team
18:46 greebo erikg, :(
18:47 mchua for testing 8.2.1
18:47 tabitha awesome erikg- if you come for five months then I will buy you more than 1 lunch and show you around too, in exchange for you sharing your knowledge with testers here ;-)
18:47 greebo mchua, yeah sure (re chatting about lca)
18:47 mchua which is a small interim release, you can see it at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Eco/8.2.1 and also look on trac for bugs with milestone: 8.2.1
18:47 (or actually, m_stone, is the trac query stuff for that fixed yet?) ^^^
18:47 Mitch_Bradley would like to go to NZ
18:48 garycmartin Mitch_Bradley: for the surf??
18:48 Mitch_Bradley I just like that part of the world in general
18:48 m_stone mchua: yup.
18:48 tabitha one last thing mchua - we get a bit disheartened when we test an activity and we realise a bit late that we are testing in the wrong version - sometimes we search and read lots but still get the version wrong so another plea to clean up the wiki please please please, thanks
18:48 erikg it's lovely
18:48 greebo I've registered an OLPC bof at lca
18:48 m_stone mchua: dev.laptop.org/report/35
18:48 tabitha: noted.
18:48 mchua Basically, I and many others (including many, many people in this room right now) have been saying - not just in testing, but for OLPC in general - "hey, grassroots is wonderful. Volunteers are great. They Do Things! We should help them Do Things!"
18:49 greebo hoping to have some loan machines to kick off an OLPc Library for loaning to developers (because most people get them and after ~3months they sit on a shelf, so loaning is better )
18:49 mchua tabitha: yes. that is a bug, and we should fix it.
18:49 lfaraone Mitch_Bradley: can NANDBlaster be easilly backported to earlier (8.2.0) firmware versions via a forth script?
18:49 mchua tabitha: thanks for pointing it out, and bringing it up, and testing despite it anyway. :)
18:49 erikg lfaraone: you could just install the firmware, right?
18:49 mchua can we hold off on the NANDblaster stuff for just a sec?
18:49 greebo gotta fly, will chat later all!
18:49 mchua greebo: thanks for coming!
18:49 m_stone greebo: bye!
18:49 Caryl Hi...are we still there?  I was trimming my rose bushes (honest) and lost track of the time
18:50 lfaraone erikg: that assumes that we've got the firmware signed, which we don't afaict. (yet)
18:50 mchua Caryl: yes we are
18:50 joachimp if oplc-update 767 is 8.2, oplc-update ??? is 8.2.1?
18:50 tabitha okay, well I am off now (have to do the paid part of the day) but you can expect another report in to testing@ again tomorrow after our testing session in Wellington - have a great day!
18:50 m_stone joachimp: see http://pilgrim.laptop.org/~pil[…]-1/streams/8.2.1/
18:50 mchua have fun, tabitha! thank you!
18:50 m_stone fresh off the presses.
18:50 joachimp m_stone: thx
18:50 lfaraone erikg: I'm talking about for testing, I have a large group of testers who would want to try it, but I'd need to get them all dev keys
18:50 mchua ooh, build! yay m_stone!
18:50 okay.
18:50 greebo m_stone, we'll be testing 8.2.1, and I'll be deploying it into my trial in January. Hooray!
18:50 m_stone joachimp: olpc-update might need to be tweaked.
18:50 mchua The next thing I'm going to say is very important, so I want everyone to be on the same page
18:50 greebo m_stone, is the build signed or unsigned?
18:51 m_stone listens to mchua
18:51 greebo listens too
18:51 m_stone and waits for tabitha?
18:51 lfaraone m_stone: is the final .1 out?
18:51 listens as well.
18:51 Caryl ditto
18:51 mchua 8.2.1 testing (which I'm running on the internal OLPC QA side) is an experiment; it's an experiment to see the difference between internal QA testing and volunteer testing.
18:51 The metric:
18:51 ivazquez is probably not even on the same volume yet :P
18:51 greebo heh, cool :)
18:52 mchua man-hours of internal QA time spent facilitating community test * quality of test results from the community
18:52 vs
18:52 m_stone '*'?
18:52 mchua man-hours of internal QA time spent running all of the same tests * quality of test results from internal QA
18:52 uh... convolution! times!
18:52 (multiplying.)
18:52 m_stone not quality / time?
18:52 (i.e. efficiency?)
18:52 mchua gah! m_stone is right.
18:52 can't do maths
18:52 greebo so I'll be doing an 8.2.1 and G1G1 activities test sprint next Saturday. We'll try to document it as well as we can.
18:52 mchua well, only specific kinds of maths... abstract algebra fine, elementary division not so fine, apparently
18:53 greebo: <3
18:53 Mitch_Bradley now if we could only measure quality objectively
18:53 lfaraone Mitch_Bradley: mhm...
18:53 mchua this test meeting marks the first hour of internal QA time spent facilitating community test on this, double-counted because joef is here as well
18:54 Mitch_Bradley: "quality," for this purpose, will be defined as "test case runs completed satisfactorily"
18:54 we need to set some sort of bar for "satisfactorily"
18:54 but basically, yeah, results/internal-QA-man-hours
18:54 gregdek CRUSH THE INFIDEL.
18:54 I mean... kick ass!
18:54 mchua Of course, there are some things that will have to be done either way, like... finding out what test cases there are, getting them written up, etc.
18:55 those will be counted in a third category of hours, "We Have To Anyway" hours (more amusing acronyms welcome)
18:55 So
18:56 lfaraone mchua: and bar creation
18:56 mchua What that means is that I'm going to be trying to be as hands-off about community 8.2.1 testing as possible, while (this is the hard part) still making sure you folks have everything you need
18:56 lfaraone: yes, bar creation and bar-height-publicizing
18:56 So
18:56 what that means
18:56 lfaraone mchua: ok. we'll kick you out of our next testing mtg. :)
18:56 m_stone :)
18:56 mchua is that I will *not* be spending time during 8.2.1 testing asking people what they need, as much as I can help myself
18:57 *you have to tell me.*
18:57 lfaraone: I would actually love it if you did.
18:57 In all seriousness.
18:57 m_stone (and each other)
18:57 mchua m_stone: exactly
18:57 Better yet: tell each other what you need
18:57 The only thing you *need* to sync up with me on is being very, very clear on what the metric and the bar we're trying to hit is
18:58 because starting in 3 minutes, *you're racing me.*
18:58 And I will be running as fast as I can within internal QA to do our testing fast and well, so we're going to be hard to beat.
18:58 But I think you guys can beat me.
18:59 garycmartin mchua: so we should just go though the 8.2.1 (Ed's list) trac bugs and try to reproduce onan 8.2.1 build and formally report results?
19:00 mchua garycmartin: Yes - that's one way to give yourself a head start towards the bar in the absence of a clearly defined bar
19:00 it *is* the right direction to be running in
19:00 notes that the test meeting will run over for the 2nd time ever tonight - someone should tell marcopg
19:00 garycmartin mchua: I just usually post followups to the tickets to let folks know if it worked or not. So not sure how 'hrs of community' could be evaluated.
19:01 mchua garycmartin: in other words, "start running towards where you think the finish line is, and work with us and yell at us to clarify exactly what that finish line is"
19:01 m_stone garycmartin: hrs of community isn't counted; just the results.
19:01 mchua garycmartin: hrs of community isn't counted; the only hours we're counting are internal-OLPC-employee-hours.
19:01 garycmartin m_stone: agreed!!
19:01 mchua or rather, internal OLPC QA employee hours.
19:02 the argument is "what is the most efficient allocation of /OLPC's/ resources - this would be a powerful step towards advocating a more community/grassroots enabling centric focus
19:02 or in other words, "being in business to put ourselves out of business"
19:02 anyway, we're running over a bit now
19:02 garycmartin mchua: cattle-prods users, vs. trained and paid cows ;-)
19:02 mchua and the clock is ticking
19:03 Mitch_Bradley so are we going to actually talk about testing 8.2.1, or just about process?
19:03 mchua does anyone have any immediate questions or comments about 8.2.1/joyride testing? remember, the first - and probably the biggest and hardest - part is going to be constantly asking, loudly, for the things you need to get to the finish line (that we haven't defined completely and publicly yet, so that's the first thing to yell about)
19:04 Mitch_Bradley: well, what I'm going to do is end the formal test community meeting, and then ask somebody else to start another one, in which you and m_stone talk with folks here about testing NANDblaster, and then leave
19:04 Caryl I missed the beginning.  Will there be a template?  Will we just pick and choose what to test or will we all test the same things?
19:05 mchua (because, strictly speaking, you don't need me to be here for that.)
19:05 Caryl: yes yes and yes.
19:05 #ACTION mchua send Caryl meeting logs
19:05 anything else before I run?
19:05 who can restart the meeting on NANDblaster once I leave?
19:05 Caryl Are we still trying to test all the Activities before Christmas?
19:05 joachimp how much space _is needed for olpc-update to 760?
19:05 lfaraone mchua: *raises hand*
19:05 mchua lfaraone: Thanks!
19:05 Caryl: yes.
19:05 and with that,
19:05 #endmeeting

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