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#olpc-meeting, 2008-12-04

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Time Nick Message
18:00 mchua woo! I love meetbot.
18:00 Agenda: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]etings/2008-12-04
18:00 additions welcome.
18:00 I don't know if everyone got a chance to read the meeting announcement email this week, http://lists.laptop.org/piperm[…]ember/000616.html - we're doing things a bit different this time
18:00 so holler if you need a few minutes
18:00 any additions/comments before we launch into the agenda?
18:01 also, can we have a quick roll call so I can see who's here for the meeting?
18:01 (just say "here" or something)
18:01 aly_ here
18:01 garycmartin mchua: beep
18:01 skierpage yo. (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_[…]ts_from_skierpage)
18:01 mchua *grin*
18:02 also, remember the law of two feet. if you're getting bored at any point in this hour, holler, and do something that's interesting to you.
18:02    * 1 Previous meeting's action items
18:02    * 2 Law of two feet
18:02    * 3 Discussion: Developer/tester relationships
18:02    * 4 Brainstorm: What are the blockers on Activity testing?
18:02    * 5 Action items
18:02 1. skipping!
18:03 joef me
18:03 mchua 2. done - http://www.deborahschultz.com/[…]_law_of_two_.html
18:03 (hi, Caryl!)
18:03 Caryl hi
18:03 mchua 3. dev/test relationships. all righty.
18:03 Open discussion time - bring your questions! What do you want to learn about developer/tester relationships or how to make them better? What are you thinking?
18:04 on my part, I've been thinking a lot about bug advocacy, for dev/test relationships.
18:04 someone once told me that the best tester wasn't the one who found the most bugs, but the one who got the most bugs fixed.
18:04 (...setting aside the "there are many ways to gauge what makes a tester 'good'" thing for a bit.)
18:05 Caryl developers are currently involved with getting 9.1.0 ready for March or April.  Will they have time to fix our bigs?
18:05 mchua Caryl: well, a lot of 'getting 9.1.0 ready for march' is 'fix bugs' - so I sure hope so!
18:05 garycmartin Caryl: activity vs system dev, though many main activities are looked after folks who do both.
18:05 mchua Caryl: that's a great point, though. how can we make sure the bugs we identify as critical actually do get fixed?
18:06 Caryl they want to add 10 new features!
18:06 mchua Yeah, that's a lot.
18:06 aly_ we have had quite a few problems with bugs not being fixed, we test an activity and then go to file the bug only to find that its been present in the tracker for a number of months
18:07 mchua aly_: Yeah, it's an eternal bane... how can we make it as easy as possible for developers (both staff and volunteer) to fix what we want them to fix?
18:07 garycmartin my my Moon dev hat on...
18:07 Caryl are bugs ranked?
18:07 mchua garycmartin: yay! that'll be helpful.
18:07 garycmartin ...I have to poke about in trac looking for tickets for me.
18:07 mchua Caryl: while gary looks at tickets, to answer your question, "sort of."
18:08 garycmartin ...if I'm really lucky someone will email me in addition to posting a track.
18:08 Caryl maybe that is a direction we need to pursue
18:08 mchua marcopg, welcome!
18:08 marcopg hello!
18:08 mchua marcopg: just in time for our discussion on how we can make developers' lives easier
18:08 marcopg (sorry a little late)
18:08 mchua Caryl: http://dev.laptop.org/report/10
18:08 Caryl: which nobody knows about
18:08 marcopg yay ;) I like my life to be easier!
18:09 mchua marcopg: just emailed you the log so far
18:09 marcopg thanks, /me reads
18:09 garycmartin I'm all signed up to every dev type email and rss of all tickets (both laptop.org, and the new s.l track) but I'm sure most devs would find that way to messy/much.
18:10 mchua aly_: do you often find old unfixed bugs? I'd imagine that would be pretty frustrating for you guys.
18:10 I'm going to try to rephrase these things in terms of problems we can try to solve
18:10 marcopg are we focusing on activities only for this discussion or also system?
18:11 mchua marcopg: let's stick with Activities for now
18:11 Caryl do the developers have specialties so we could send emails to the one most likely to follow up?
18:11 mchua marcopg: ...I think a lot of it will be relevant to both, too
18:11 aly_ about 1 or 2 each week
18:11 mchua problem: garycmartin: developers have too much information coming in from all the mailing lists and feeds - it's hard to spot bugs in the noise.
18:11 marcopg Caryl: what are you referring to with 10 new features?
18:11 (damn I should have arrived in time :/)
18:11 mchua problem: Caryl: it's not clear what priority/ranking bugs have.
18:12 skierpage Doesn't an activity's developer get e-mail when someone files a Trac bug against that activity's component?
18:12 mchua problem: aly_: testers often rediscover bugs that have been filed months ago and not fixed; this is demotivating
18:12 aly_ yes i agree
18:12 mchua skierpage: the component owner does, yes. if the component has an owner, and the owner is actually up to date, and listening...
18:12 marcopg skierpage: they do
18:12 skierpage mchua, aly_ would it help to have a link on each activity page to view bugs, e.g. http://dev.laptop.org/query?st[…]=analyze-activity
18:13 s/view bugs/view its bugs/
18:13 garycmartin skierpage: most activities don't have components in trac
18:13 mchua problem: skierpage: when a ticket is filed, an active maintainer may not be notified.
18:13 Caryl in the Roadmap meeting the other day and last week they said they are going to choose 10 new features (some are like bug fixes), but they want some cool new stuff too for 9.1.0 there is a place to propose "my cool feature" on the roadmap page
18:13 mchua problem: garycmartin: most activities do not have trac components (and thus their maintainers can't be notified on the filing of a bug)
18:13 skierpage garycmartin ahh, that's why I couldnt' find component is moon-activity :)
18:14 marcopg Caryl: those are system features though
18:14 aly_ yes that would be useful
18:14 marcopg mostly worked on by non activity authors
18:14 mchua (Actually, I was going to do this as separate from the brainstorm on activity testing blockers, but it seems like we've sort of slid into it now... do you guys mind making this the brainstorm itself now?)
18:14 garycmartin skierpage: :-) yea I search  'other-component' and also 'moon' text
18:14 Caryl true...like better power usage. But they will all take time
18:14 marcopg mchua make sense tome
18:15 mchua garycmartin, Caryl, aly_, joef, skierpage - mind trying a brainstorm sprint on this for, say, 6min?
18:15 Caryl oops!  I thought it already was the brainstorm
18:15 mchua Caryl: well, it is now :)
18:15 here, rules of brainstorming: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Rules_of_brainstorming
18:15 (they're quick, there's 5)
18:15 garycmartin marcopg: should activities now get components in sugarlabs track or laptop.org? Where should bug reporters be expected to go hunt?
18:16 (trac)
18:16 mchua basically, spurt out ideas for 6 minutes on... let's say... "What makes it hard for developers to fix bugs in their Activity?"
18:16 marcopg eeek that's a long discussion ;)
18:16 mchua yeah, hence the 6 minutes of just vomiting out ideas here :)
18:16 ready?
18:16 marcopg garycmartin: my opinion is that all the activities should get components at dev.sl.o
18:16 mchua set!
18:16 joef mchua: if the trac reflects activity's maintainer correctly, he get the message and then it up to him...
18:17 mchua 6 minutes go!
18:17 problem from marcopg: activities might not have components at dev.sl.o
18:17 activity maintainers might not know they have a bug
18:17 marcopg mchua not might, thay certainly don't :)
18:17 Caryl overload...too much to do
18:17 mchua activity maintainers might not know they have a bug because there's too much noise-to-signal
18:17 joef mchua: so maybe the trac has to audited for maitainers' names
18:18 mchua following up on Caryl - they overloaded, or became not interested, and they're not around at all any more
18:18 garycmartin mchua: (I don't type fast enough vs a brain storm via text, actually reading rt is a bit much as well)
18:18 marcopg maintainers might not know we are about them fixing bugs :)
18:18 gah
18:18 mchua there is no maintainer for an activity; it was abandoned
18:18 marcopg s/we/we care
18:18 mchua nobody knows an activity has been abandoned
18:18 Caryl do we know who the maintainers are...can we
18:19 skierpage Garycmartin  , I added the link and instructions to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Moon#Testing_.28Yes.29
18:19 mchua it might not be clear what a bug is - maybe the bug is hard to understand or read
18:19 Caryl maybe they can't reproduce the bug
18:19 marcopg it might not be clear how important a bug is (priority is almost ever not correctly set)
18:19 mchua it might not be clear why a bug is important to fix; i might think it's vital to the future of humanity, but the maintainer might see it as a feature
18:19 marcopg: jinx! ;)
18:20 reproducibility is good, Caryl - maybe the bug is intermittent and really hard to reproduce
18:20 maybe the bug needs special equipment to reproduce it, and the developer doesn't have it
18:20 skierpage mchua and Caryl, re: maintainers: each activity has or should have  a "Contact person" property.
18:20 mchua maybe the person who found the bug doesn't speak the developer's language
18:20 marcopg skierpage: we need a development page for each activity, something I want to have on dev.sl.o
18:20 mchua skierpage:  ah, ok, so maybe it's not clear how to contact someone about fixing a bug for an activity - testers not having someone to go to
18:20 Caryl like taking a car in to the shop for repairs...need to have very detailed info on when and how bug occurs
18:21 mchua aly_: (curious if you've found that to be the case - the old bugs you found, could you find a way to escalate them to someone who could fix them?)
18:21 garycmartin nobody brave enough to kill and remove an already dead activity that no one wants.
18:21 mchua ooh, good one garycmartin.
18:21 joef Caryl: otherwise you are overcharged! ;-)
18:21 mchua ack! sorry, i broke a brainstorm rule
18:21 marcopg (/me didn't read the brainstorm rules! ugh)
18:22 skierpage garycmartin, I can add 9 - DEAD LIKE A PARROT to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Property:Devel_status
18:22 mchua one minute left!
18:22 maybe the developer doesn't know how to fix the bug
18:22 marcopg sometimes activity authors fix bugs
18:22 Caryl we really need a contact list
18:22 marcopg but then they don't know how to get fixes into the builds
18:23 mchua they may not know where to look in the code, what tools to use, etc. (especially if they didn't write the original program, or if they did it as a learning exercise... imagine a new middle-school coder being hit by memory leak issues)
18:23 anything else? do we want to keep tossing out ideas here?
18:23 joef mchua: and then what to do with ideas?
18:24 mchua joef: well, I'm pulling them into an easier to read list right now... in the meantime
18:24 i was wondering if people could take a look at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Testing_Jam
18:24 Caryl's idea originally, I expanded it last night while writing to gregdek
18:24 Caryl, can you lead a discussion on this 'till I get back in a few minutes with a problems list?
18:26 skierpage Caryl, "we really need a contact list": if http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Property:Contact_person was accurate, would that be enough?
18:26 marcopg mchua does it have to be a local event? seems like it could work pretty well in irc too
18:26 Caryl Which of these test jam ideas do you think would be feasable for each of you?
18:27 I was thinking of something like the writing of the FLOSS manuals.  Some folks live, others online
18:27 aly_ the first one we have trialed a few times
18:28 usually have 3 or 4 people on one activity and test all the different aspects of it
18:28 skierpage aly_, are you one of the legendary NZ testers?
18:28 aly_ indeed
18:28 tabitha so sorry to not be talking yet - reading and catching up now
18:29 mchua hi, tabitha!
18:29 welcome back Caryl ;)
18:29 joef mchua: before you test activity in "jam" or other way, you need to know EXACTLY what activity is supposed to do. Is this info available?
18:30 garycmartin skierpage: I do like the idea of a 'dead parrot' development status.
18:30 mchua Caryl: keep going, I'm ready with our problems list whenever you're done :)
18:30 Caryl I don't know how to ping :(
18:30 tabitha news from NZ  - we are anticipating a busy saturday this week with renewed energy from our old testers; we have several events on the cards for early next year - two international guests offering workshops/presentations in jan/feb as well as a coders special "python for sugar" day
18:30 mchua I like marcopg's idea of a virtual test jam, for people who can't/don't want to do an in-person one
18:30 in-person ones are more fun / energizing, in my experience, but maybe that's just me
18:31 tabitha: great to hear! i'll probably ask you about those after-meeting too ;)
18:31 marcopg mchua sure I agree about in-person :) but irc can be fun too
18:32 Caryl why not a combo...people would be alone or in small groups wherever we are.  Use irc, conf call, live people, pizza, soda, ponies, unicorns, etc...
18:32 mchua Caryl: so it sounds like aly_ and tabitha are already doing #1... you and marcopg are for a virtual/hybrid one
18:32 unicorns!
18:33 garycmartin: you've been doing test infrastructure tool stuff... would it be helpful for you (or someone else) to organize a half-day sprint of coders on one of the projects that you're working on?
18:33 garycmartin Caryl: sorry I don't have a unicorn license.
18:33 joef mchua: pls answer my previous question
18:33 marcopg mchua garycmartin would be useful to me, so that I can manage to allocate time for it :)
18:33 mchua garycmartin: http://www.lssu.edu/banished/uh_license.php
18:33 tabitha In person means we are committed to focusing time on OLPC - otherwise life just takes over. These workshops with experts are hopefully a great motivator too
18:34 Caryl if it was simultaneous we could commit
18:35 mchua maybe another question to ask is - how many people here feel like they could, magically given 100 extra hours of free time to spend just on this, actually organize and run a little testing party in the next few weeks?
18:35 marcopg small groups + virtual sounds optimal to me, except for timezone issues
18:35 mchua I'm not asking about whether you actually have time to do this - I'm asking whether, if you had time, you think you would be able to
18:35 or if there is something we need to teach/support/provide-resources-for
18:35 I know a year ago I would have felt *completely* unprepared to host a test party for OLPC, I didn't know the first thing about organizing workshops, or testing for that matter
18:36 marcopg feels completely unprepared ;)
18:36 Caryl maybe a practice test jam on irc to get us all up to speed so we can make the most of the real one
18:36 mchua tabitha, you and aly_ have been doing this already, so it's pretty apparent that you can :) what would have made it easier for you to figure out how to do your saturday sessions?
18:36 Caryl: oooh.
18:36 marcopg irc and real one might require different approaches, though
18:37 tabitha we email out every week - trying to give interesting info on OLPC world in each email and give a focus for each week
18:37 mchua joef: part of preparing for a test jam is making sure that oracles for activities you're testing are available, or will be made at the jam's start
18:37 tabitha just the right amount of emails helps
18:38 Caryl practice: we just need to all be on the same page for the jam...what to do /oracles: volunteer to do that part in advance
18:38 tabitha Idea for virtual world test day: what if you have small groups around the world all aim to report in at a couple of set times in the day - each group is assigned one task and they all feed in to a global update every hour or two hours
18:39 mchua tabitha: yay! those emails are a good example of something a newbie workshop-runner might not think of at first.
18:39 Ooh, that sounds fun.
18:39 marcopg tabitha: like it, some of these groups could also just be virtual though
18:39 Caryl sounds like fun!
18:40 tabitha yes they could be, easier for virtual groups to work if they have had some experience at that
18:40 you have to feel like a community
18:40 mchua looking at the calendar here... would this weekend be too soon for a first virtual world test jam, very small scale?
18:41 marcopg do we have enough time to organize it?
18:41 tabitha well you know we meet every saturday morning (nz time) so we are committed
18:41 Caryl we could do a test run...pick one activity to test
18:41 marcopg this weekend is.. after tomorrow ;)
18:41 mchua i can commit to being online between... *checks calendar*
18:41 marcopg a test run sounds good!
18:41 mchua my saturday night at 10pm to my monday morning at, say, 1am or something
18:41 Caryl oooo...a test test run!  how fun
18:42 marcopg hehe
18:42 mchua ...in 4 hour blocks, with 2-4 hours in between those blocks, so I can, uh, nap
18:42 tabitha idea - each group assigned activity - focus time IRC every 45 minutes says "quick add your contrib" then 15 minutes later we have world update - bit of positive reinforcement for what has been achieved and a rev up for next 45 minute stint
18:42 marcopg I can commit to be around some, if people have questions for developers
18:42 probably not to do the actual testing
18:42 Caryl Mel will need to use the time converter to be sure we all know when it is happening
18:43 mchua I'd really like to get test community folks to the point where they can comfortably run their own workshops like the wellington folks are doing now, so I'd like to do this first weekend sprint as a "are you thinking of running your own workshop? want to see what one is like first? come!"
18:43 tabitha: I like the 45min sprint idea
18:43 actually, 45min mini sprints are probably more productive
18:43 Caryl on irc?
18:43 mchua if we space 45min sprints out over the weekend and have one running every 4 hours, we could probably get some good stuff going, and timezones wouldn't be an issue
18:43 yeah, on irc
18:43 tabitha so there needs to be a clear list of teams entered and sponsors for the teams - suggest developer could sponsor the team assigned to the activity they wrote - if not developer then some other guru who can feed back to developer team - sponsor provides immediate response to ability to resolve bugs found or implementation plan for improvements
18:44 Caryl got to get the developer on board
18:44 mchua tabitha + 1
18:44 Caryl + 1, too
18:44 marcopg yup
18:44 tabitha what has been started .... ideas are flowing out now
18:45 Caryl chicken or egg...do we pick the activity or the developer to start?
18:45 marcopg are we going to focus on a small set of activities?
18:45 mchua so we'd need to get 28 sprints, one per G1G1 Activity... or per developer...
18:46 skierpage 45 min?!  Maybe, but then 20 minutes for each bug found to check if filed, determine steps to reproduce, and file in Trac.  Plus time to fill in the TBD test report.
18:46 mchua marcopg: well, we have the g1g1 activities, that's a smallish set
18:46 marcopg oh all the g1g1 set, eek ;)
18:46 tabitha set up a sprint page - make an easy way to show "enter your team" and "choose your activity"
18:46 marcopg mchua I was thinking about a smaller set, but sure! :)
18:46 tabitha need the page to display which activities are taken and which left
18:46 THINK SIMPLE - not too much on page
18:47 mchua skierpage, tabitha: what if the testing was being done by a team? 4-5 people testing the same activity at once - when someone finds a bug, a pair splits off to hunt it down and write it up, and then rejoins the team
18:47 Caryl there is a different G1G1 set for the direct online install and the one with the USB stick
18:47 tabitha then distrib page link to the world
18:47 mchua tabitha: yes!
18:47 marcopg how are we going to get developer attention?
18:48 mchua marcopg: i was hoping you might have ideas ;)
18:48 marcopg try to send them mail directly asap perhaps?
18:48 tabitha we often test one activity to two people then spread to wider team for hunting down collaboration issues and ensuring we have full diagnosis of issue (to avoid reporting bugs that are unreproducable)
18:48 marcopg mchua I doubt a mailing list thing will succeed, we will have to "pester" them directly, either by irc or mail imo
18:49 mchua tabitha, do you think you and aly_ could teach other people how to run these 45min sprints?
18:49 tabitha not email
18:49 marcopg (we should also announce in the mailing lists obviously...)
18:49 skierpage Caryl , So gg-767-4 build comes with different activities than http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/G1G1/8.2 ?  Wow.
18:49 tabitha On the day not emails is what I meant, sorry should have specified
18:50 we test 8.2-767 - so teams need to prepare before the day - need a quick check list for people to prepare their XOs
18:50 Caryl online has only 19 activities.  USB download has 27
18:50 marcopg I don't think we can get all the 28 authors to participate, but someone could take care of relying information after the sprint
18:50 tabitha should check that they have latest build and correct activities (right versions) before the sprint
18:50 Caryl is this a bug???
18:51 mchua Caryl: i'll pm you and look into it
18:51 tabitha If everyone is completing a form (like the one we submitted last week if people like it) that is easy to collect info
18:51 garycmartin Caryl: 9 extra activities, must be a feature ;-)
18:51 Caryl online lacks Speak, Maze, Moon, Scratch, Help, Ruler, Wikipedia EN, Log, and Scratch
18:52 skierpage Caryl, I count 28 activities in  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/G1G1/8.2
18:52 mchua whoa, we're running close on time
18:52 Caryl this is from the how to update links...
18:53 mchua tabitha, I love your howto run a workshop things.. mind if I pop them on a wiki page real quick?
18:54 aly_, tabitha: and do you think the wellington testers could each find and offer to tutor an activity tester (remotely) from not-the-wellington-group on how to run a 45min sprint on testing their activity?
18:54 tabitha mchua - do, and I can take a look - we can email later
18:54 marcopg obviously there are not good contact info for activity authors
18:54 mchua tabitha: yep - I owe you many emails...
18:54 marcopg morgs had made a list at some point
18:54 tabitha mchua - Aly and I are talking about what we can offer
18:54 marcopg anyway, I think we can figure them about for g1g1 activities without too much pain
18:55 mchua tabitha: *thank you*!
18:55 tabitha need contact info for authors
18:55 aly_ from my point of view there doesnt seem to be much too them, we meet in a cafe/bar and talk, play and find bugs
18:55 tabitha need help with creating sponsor list if authors not available
18:55 mchua Caryl, marcopg: can we sit down after this and go through g1g1 activities and find out, for each, (1) what they are and (2) who maintains them?
18:55 just so we have a canonical list
18:55 it shouldn't take long (I hope)
18:55 marcopg mchua I can try, hopefully I'll not fall asleep :)
18:56 mchua sure
18:56 tabitha that simple pages is basically three columns - team (name and email would be good); activity chosen; sponsor offered for that activity
18:56 mchua and then skierpage, i'd like to make sure that we take that information and put it into your suggestion of having that info on the wiki... and the rest of the infrastructure eventually, like trac
18:56 skierpage marcopg, tabitha, again http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Property:Contact_person should be that list.  What mailing list should I use to ask activity maintainers to check.
18:56 Caryl <melchua> sure
18:56 mchua skierpage, garycmartin: what are the blockers to getting every activity a trac component and a maintainer?
18:56 marcopg skierpage: sugar-devel, but not all activity authors will read your mail there
18:57 mchua thanks, marcopg and Caryl!
18:57 we'll start in ~3min ;)
18:57 tabitha, aly_: i'll be around once you're done discussing
18:57 tabitha I will keep an eye on my inbox mel
18:58 marcopg needs to find a way to make the meeting run late
18:58 skierpage mchua, yes, the list of bugs, the maintainer, etc. are things that should be on the Activity's wiki page, and I guess the info or links for the rest of the items in http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_[…]Activity#Our_goal like features and plans
18:58 aly_ ive gotta head off now, bye
18:58 skierpage cheers
18:58 mchua skierpage, garycmartin: after Caryl and marcopg and I get our info, we'll put it on smw, and ping you to see how we can make it easier for devs to get this in trac / find out what's going on, does that sound ok?
18:58 marcopg skierpage: I would like to separate user and developer info
18:59 mchua salutes tabitha - sorry I've been behind on email lately
18:59 marcopg skierpage: we should discuss how to organize activity information one of these days
18:59 garycmartin mchua: need to make a call on laptop.org or sl trac.
18:59 skierpage marcopg, yes I was going to ask what your motivation for the split is.
18:59 mchua garycmartin, marcopg: your decision; I'll stick with whatever you agree on
18:59 anything else before we (continue to) split up into our sprintin' groups?
18:59 marcopg skierpage: (very open to other ideas, the split is just something I thought it made sense... need discussion!)
18:59 mchua going?
19:00 3...
19:00 2...
19:00 tabitha all for more discussion but unfortunately have to run away - I will however be keeping an eye out for the page and giving feedback
19:00 skierpage marcopg (besides wiki pages devolving into mystery meat sludge over time :-) )
19:00 marcopg no damn
19:00 mchua 2.5...
19:00 tabitha bye
19:00 marcopg stop!
19:00 mchua 1....
19:00 #endmeeting

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