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#olpc-meeting, 2008-11-13

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Time Nick Message
16:59 mchua Welcome to the community test meeting, all. </newscaster voice>
16:59 Agenda is up at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]etings/2008-11-13
17:00 # 1 Previous meeting's action items
17:00 # 2 G1G1: What can we do to help?
17:00 # 3 Activity testing instructions
17:00 # 4 Test result reporting instructions
17:00 # 5 Activity testing automation
17:00 # 6 Mission/scope/focus of Community testing
17:00 We have a mildly crowded agenda today, so let's see how fast we can get through it - I think most of these are going to be relatively short discussions.
17:00 (also, please chime in with a hello if you're here, so we can tell who's in the meeting)
17:00 Any addendums to the agenda, before we start?
17:01 garycmartin mchua: eyes open.
17:01 tabitha_ Hello
17:01 mchua gregdek, tabitha_, adricnet, fhop... bjordan /should/ be on his way
17:02 (he may be slightly distracted by the NFL star walking around our office with the film crew right now...)
17:02 Caryl: You made it!
17:02 kevix hello.
17:02 anna_bham hello
17:02 Caryl Yep!  Hi!
17:02 mchua and welcome back, kevix. thanks for joining in on the brainstorm with adricnet and garycmartin yesterday.
17:02 welcome back, _bernie - community test meeting here
17:02 Last call for new agenda items?
17:02 Going...
17:02 Goin...
17:02 Go...
17:03 Ok, Caryl - you're on. ;) http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]can_we_do_to_help.3F
17:03 bjordan: j0
17:03 Caryl teach me how to type faster!
17:03 bjordan :( brian hasn't done a Paint test plan yet
17:03 Step 1: try to paint something interesting
17:04 Step 2: write down what makes that hard
17:04 mchua As you all already know, G1G1 is just around the corner; Caryl had an idea about how the test community could help
17:04 bjordan: we're talking about http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]can_we_do_to_help.3F
17:04 bjordan mchua: thanks
17:04 mchua bjordan: activity test plans are next. ;) and I'll catch up with you after re: Paint
17:04 Caryl I have been testing TamTamEdit  Think I had better do the whole suite
17:04 mchua Caryl: do you want to explain your test jam idea? should I copy-paste from your email?
17:04 (let's tackle G1G1 first for a few minutes, get that out of the way)
17:05 Caryl copy/paste is ok
17:05 mchua Ok - folks, this is from Caryl's email
17:05 join in some sort of virtual "Testing Jam."  We could use irc to communicate for it.  Maybe if several folks could get together in central locales (Cambridge, DC, Puget Sound, etc.) they could do tests that used the mesh.
17:05 You would need a super goal for the jam....such as test all activities in the G1G1 package and write up things to be put into rtfms or added to the online FLOSS manual...or something like that.  Make folks feel needed for something specific. Once we have "hooked" them for one test, they may stick around for more.
17:05 </end>
17:06 Thoughts? bjordan, you've done Jams before... gregdek, this might be up your alley, and anna_bham and kevix, it might be a fun thing to organize locally with students in Birmingham.
17:06 (Both students with the XOs in the deployment - there are some people here in Boston trying to organize some parallel youth Activity test efforts - and with high school and university students, perhaps.)
17:06 anna_bham unfortunately there' s no internet in bham yet
17:06 bjordan mchua: that sounds like it would be a good idea
17:07 adricnet anna_bham: Uweh??
17:07 kevix anna_bham and I are 100's of miles apart :-)
17:07 anna_bham there is at glen iris, but that's the pilot school
17:07 adricnet is in Atlanta, btw
17:08 mchua anna_bham: No internet needed if we can find a way to get a USB stick of Activities out to the kids, and some way to collect their test reports. And university students might be able to run tests/ facilitate the junior testers.
17:08 kevix: Oh! Sorry, my bad - I thought you were also in bham.
17:08 anna_bham kev just hangs out on my jabber server
17:08 bjordan mchua: Jam attendees tend not to have XOs... maybe this will change with the next g1g1? Or they could focus on off-XO software testing
17:08 anna_bham He might as well live here :)
17:08 kevix mchua: we met at NYC & nycresistor
17:08 mchua One potential "Testing Community Does G1G1!" goal is to have all shipped-with-G1G1 Activities tested - according to the [[How to test an Activity]] page - before Xmas
17:09 kevix: OH! You're *that* kevix!
17:09 gregdek hullos.
17:09 mchua kevix: pardon me, my mind is slipping. :)
17:09 kevix *light comes on*
17:09 Caryl depends on what and how we are testing.  We can't check the accuracy and up-to-date-ness of the wiki without the net
17:10 For example...TamTamEdit..screen shots are all of an old version
17:10 mchua Ahhh, you're right.
17:10 Caryl very confusing to nub's
17:10 mchua so I guess this is actually 2 questions, then
17:11 1. is "have all shipped-with-G1G1 Activities tested - according to the [[How to test an Activity]] page - before Xmas" a good short-term goal?
17:11 (arguments: testing implies good documentation, this will prepare us to recruit an onslaught of new testers for both Sugar and OLPC once G1G1 "get" machines arrive)
17:12 Caryl your page included checking the wiki and instruction, is that what you mean?
17:12 mchua and then 2. is there a way a test jam could be run before or after xmas to either help reach this goal, or to follow up on it once it is reached? (and is anyone interested in running a Jam, or learning how? anna_bham, this might be particularly awesome at bham)
17:12 kevix is there a page in the help activity about 'how to help olpc'?
17:13 mchua Caryl: Yep. Part of the testing is making an oracle to test against; usually the oracle will be a specification or a features list, which is part of documentation.
17:13 bjordan kevix: there is a how to volunteer page: http://en.flossmanuals.net/XO/HowToVolunteer
17:13 mchua bjordan: totally beat me to it. :P
17:14 bjordan links to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Participate
17:14 anna_bham I know they're currently doing teacher training, so who ever's coordinating that might be able to assist.  Unfortunately I don't have many contacts outside of the project manager.  They pretty much keep me locked up in the server closet and only let me out to do Linux stuff.  :)
17:14 mchua kevix: pages like that are only useful inasmuch as there are people and groups (like this one) standing by to welcome newcomers and help them get started
17:14 it's a lot of person-to-person contact, and mentorship, and individuals working together
17:15 anna_bham: hey, this is a good way to break out of the server closet for a bit. ;)
17:15 anna_bham Perhaps an offline discussion of the weird political climate surrounding this project is in order
17:15 adricnet lols.
17:15 mchua but back to the original question: "test g1g1 activities before Dec. 25," thoughts on this as a goal?
17:16 anna_bham: Yep. I'll PM you after the meeting.
17:16 tabitha_ we will do our bit to test activities by then
17:16 adricnet predepends document, as noted
17:16 Caryl great idea...good goal to get folks involved...think of all the happy kiddies with their cute little green machines
17:16 tabitha_ if you want to give us a specific area to focus on we can or we can do random splattering of all activities for g1g1
17:17 mchua tabitha_: that would be awesome.
17:17 Any concerns about setting this as a first short-term testing community goal? (We have about 1.3 months.) Is there anything else we should be aiming at before then?
17:17 adricnet How many activities are in the 2008 g1g1 pack? Ship on the newly manufactured XOs ?
17:17 mchua I think of this as the "build the base resources" time, and then in early January we'll start hitting the "zomg! recruit! recruit!" time.
17:17 Caryl Mel started a sign-up list on the testing page
17:17 garycmartin mchua: how do we report findings in a cordinated manor?
17:18 bjordan adricnet: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/G1G1
17:18 28 activities
17:18 mchua Caryl: yeah, but as garycmartin pointed out we'll need to find a better way to scale
17:18 Caryl maybe make a list of all the A to be tested and have folks sign up
17:18 bjordan 9 content bundles
17:18 mchua Right now we have http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_cases_8.2.0
17:18 more specifically http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test[…]_8.2.0#Activities
17:18 adricnet ~26 activities ?
17:18 mchua we can make a similar page that links to just the G1G1 activity tests
17:19 so that we have some indication of completion
17:19 Caryl I would love a _template- to report results.  I would have started last night, but it seemed too burdensome
17:19 tabitha_ have to say sometimes we get lost in the wiki with pages that look like the right one but then see more - so we guess which is newest modified testplan page or whatever page we are hoping we are reading right
17:19 mchua (and then we can use cjl's proposed metrics on that page - 26 Activities sounds like a good small trial bed, 1.3 months not an unreasonable time to do this in)
17:19 Caryl, tabitha_ : Yeah, it is a huge problem.
17:19 gregdek Yep.
17:20 garycmartin mchua: last time I tested I wen't through 40-50+ activities.
17:20 mchua Building that kind of meta-testing infrastructure is one of *the* most important roles of this test group. If it doesn't exist, we can get people to help us by using it.
17:20 garycmartin: You, sir, are *amazing.*
17:20 Oh! Sorry, we seem to be moving to our 2nd agenda item of activity testing
17:20 gregdek garycmartin: To what depth, may I ask?
17:20 mchua should I mark our g1g1 goal as solid, so that we can figure out where we are and how we can get the rest of the way to where we want to be?
17:21 Caryl sounds good to me
17:21 mchua (I think it makes sense to bring up jams again next week, once that has been settled a bit... is that ok, Caryl?)
17:21 bjordan that makes sense
17:21 tabitha_ goals are good
17:21 Caryl of course... we will know more about what we would want a jam to do by then
17:21 mchua Ok - thanks, Caryl. Given that, it seems like our next two agenda items go together, http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]ting_instructions and http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]ting_instructions
17:21 adricnet of the 28? Scratch, Etoys, Piipy and Browse are very deep and complicated
17:21 garycmartin gregdek: led me dig the wiki... one mo
17:22 mchua winces at the ugly URLs sprawled all together
17:22 we have a couple notions that we need to settle, as pretty much everyone here has pointed out
17:22 * what Activities are we testing? (at least we have that one down; right now we're focusing on G1G1 ship)
17:22 * what does "tested" mean? where do we input our results?
17:22 Caryl Re Jam: actually, I was thinking along the lines of a virtual jam like they did for the FLOSS manual.  I participated in that one from Montana
17:23 mchua (I hope that http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]ting_instructions will be the start of something usable - Caryl and tabitha_ especially, how does that look?)
17:23 and "how the heck do we get something to 'tested' state?" which http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Comm[…]ting_instructions is for.
17:24 Caryl: awesome. :) let's talk about that on the mailing list over the next week - it would be great to have a good chunk of time at next thursday's meeting to be able to plan out a virtual jam
17:24 garycmartin gregdek: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk[…]n_motivating_ways
17:25 mchua gregdek, garycmartin: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk[…]n_motivating_ways
17:25 Caryl make chart...show progress like Pootle
17:25 mchua Caryl: exactly.
17:25 garycmartin gregdek: wow what a horrible URL, sorry. I'm on an XO and manually typed it all in...
17:25 tabitha_ yes - I encourage testers to test methodically every feature of an activity, if they find something not working then restart (so no previous activities run before trying) and then test on another XO if possible, then report - is there anything missing from this approach?
17:26 mchua tabitha_: how do they determine what the features of an Activity are / should be? I'm curious how you folks find your oracle.
17:26 background for people new to testing: oracles are these things - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_(testing)
17:27 kevix will look at that.
17:27 tabitha_ we work out features with lots of talking mostly! lol
17:27 mchua and tabitha_ is part of a group in Wellington, NZ who have been doing some spectacularly good Activity testing for months (did I get that right? is anyone else from wellington here?)
17:27 garycmartin mchua: if it doesn't work as expected, it's a bug ;-)
17:27 tabitha_ you know "oh that is what is supposed to happen"
17:28 fhop tabitha_: have you been testing the newest build?
17:28 mchua tabitha_: I actually didn't know your group was doing this until Martin, the XS architect, came over and told me the other day - I was *so* happy
17:28 garycmartin: define "expected" ;)
17:28 tabitha_ Yes I am from Wellington, don't know that anyone else from Wellington made it but we testing tomorrow so will update group
17:28 Caryl I looked at the testing form.  It seems too short and simple to cover all the things listed in what you would like us to do.  Could it be more like a check sheet and include more categories?
17:28 tabitha_ We test newest build in almost all cases
17:28 mchua garycmartin, tabitha_ : one thing we need is to have published oracles, so that everybody's "expected" is the same
17:28 aly im from wellington
17:28 also part of the wellington testers
17:28 mchua aly: welcome!
17:29 aly, tabitha_ : what do you call your group? is it "The Wellington Testers?"
17:29 aly but im only half here as im at work and trying to look like im working
17:29 mchua gotcha. ;)
17:29 tabitha_ test activity in isolation then test collaboration with one other then as many as possible (sometimes six)
17:29 Caryl you also asked us to report other oricles  eg the OLPCMexico stuff is excellent for Spanish speakers
17:30 mchua Caryl: ooh, yes. we haven't even tackled i18n and multilingual testing.
17:30 gregdek out of scope :)
17:30 tabitha_ well, we have no official "gang/club" name
17:30 mchua So... wow. There is a lot here. Let us see if we can break it down.
17:30 tabitha_ my email distib list is called OLPC WLG Test Group
17:30 gregdek Succeed in one language first, imho.
17:30 mchua gregdek + 1
17:30 tabitha_ Ah Alastair is here
17:31 garycmartin mchua: if your happy, no bug; if your unhappy and can work out a workaround, file a polite bug; if your unhappy and there is no workaround file a 'dragon eats pony' trac ;-b
17:31 tabitha_ Alastair is the regular lead geek of the Wellington test group
17:31 some activities dont collaborate and we cry because they should
17:31 mchua garycmartin: I couldn't find a pony-eating-dragon on digikey; where do I source them? ;)
17:31 Caryl Greg: right, but the OLPC Mexico graphics are up to date.  The ones on the wiki aren't
17:31 mchua Caryl: then we should port them over. ;)
17:32 Hm. May I propose a strawman for what we can do to start tackling this "Test Activities!" mountain between now and next week?
17:32 Caryl they are pdf  Does anyone know how?
17:32 aly we do have a wiki page for the Wellington testers but its fairly empty at the moment http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Projects/WellyNZTesters
17:33 mchua (I'd like to wrap these 2 agenda items in the next 10 minutes so we have a *bit* of time to talk about automation, and more time to talk more broadly about how things are going with the test community so far.)
17:33 garycmartin mchua: my flat is full of them, I'll direct some your way...
17:34 mchua Any objections to me piping out a strawman plan for activity testing, so everyone can find the holes?
17:34 garycmartin: awesome, thanks. :D
17:34 martin_xsa: welcome! the wellington activity test group *ROCKS*. Thank you for the introduction!
17:34 ...I'll take the silence as "ok, mel, post the strawman! ;)"
17:34 martin_xsa no prob! frances mentioned the meeting was happening, so...
17:34 mchua so, we need a couple things - working backwards:
17:34 martin_xsa plays fly-on-the-wall
17:35 fhop martin_xsa: its fhop here....my irc-edo
17:35 ego
17:35 mchua * a way to find good oracles (what we should expect Activities to do - so we have common expectations)
17:35 Caryl OK guys...I have to ask. What does "cheesy" mean?  I thought it meant cheaply made, poor quality, but everyone seems to use it as a good thing.
17:35 mchua it sounds like aly and tabitha_ and the WellyNZTesters (WNTs?) have done a lot of this
17:35 tabitha_ Hola Martin
17:36 mchua we also need work on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_to_test_an_Activity, which covers (so far) how to *make* oracles for your Activity
17:36 we also need work on our "how do I report results?" framework, in particular to make it newbie-friendly
17:37 garycmartin mchua: badges!!!
17:37 mchua and finally we need a *lot* of work on how to measure how completely an Activity is tested, which begins with definining "completely"
17:37 garycmartin mchua: (wiki badges)
17:37 Caryl That last link foes to an empty page
17:37 mchua which goes into what garycmartin and cjl have said about wiki badges, for tracking contributions + up-to-dateness + goodness of test results
17:38 Caryl: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_to_test_an_Activity ?
17:38 martin_xsa tabitha_, hola!
17:38 mchua so here is what I propose
17:38 garycmartin mchua: +dragons eating testing ponies....
17:38 gregdek thinks that "completeness" is dangerously subjective...
17:38 garycmartin (metaphor)
17:39 martin_xsa abundanness is better
17:39 mchua bjordan, gregdek, Caryl: you've started looking at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_to_test_an_Activity - could you continue helping me focus on building that with good instructions, through testing it with your Activities? (Speak, Paint, TamTamEdit)
17:39 martin_xsa :-) abundancy
17:39 gregdek Yes
17:39 bjordan mchua: yuh huh
17:40 mchua garycmartin, gregdek: i'd like to get a first draft of a subjective 'complete' metric (and a 'participation' metric), with badges, ponies, dragons... and whatever else we can come up with
17:40 Caryl sure.  Do you want me to start a template like what I envision as helpful for new testers like me?
17:40 mchua to show this group next week, along with the "by our metrics, we are X% done with our G1G1-yay! goal"
17:40 martin_xsa recentness + abundancy are good measures.
17:41 mchua gregdek, gregdek: would you be interested in sprinting on a design-and-prototyping session for an hour or two sometime over the next week to get this up? I can try to pull in skierpage for wiki-fu.
17:41 Caryl: that would rock, if you could take that perspective.
17:41 gregdek Um... yes, yes?
17:41 kevix what other metric besides a binary one: pass/fail, worked/didnt work, etc.
17:41 martin_xsa another good thing is a structure - wiki and otherwise - that allows ppl to do many things in parallel, without having to wait or take turns....
17:41 mchua gregdek: I think it falls in nicely with "let's try the ekg project on olpc-test", too
17:41 martin_xsa: +1
17:42 kevix: I think some of the things that garycmartin and martin_xsa have brought up about recentness and abundancy would be good metrics
17:42 kevix, would you like to join me and gregdek and garycmartin on the metrics party this week?
17:42 gregdek mchua: Yes.
17:42 Tell me when.
17:42 kevix sure, i guess.
17:43 any 'party' sounds good ;-)
17:43 garycmartin mchua: ohh a party, do tell :-)
17:43 mchua tabitha_ and aly, your team has a *lot* of useful experience and data we should tap, to see if these are actually good designs for systems that we can use
17:43 kevix: thanks!
17:43 garycmartin: with ponies ;)
17:43 garycmartin mchua: and a dragon.
17:43 mchua testing parties always need ponies and dragons.
17:43 martin_xsa and we also want to have a positive stance. if an activity works prettywell, but has some problems, we want to convey that full impression - "fail" is not a good feedback if it's mostly working :-)
17:43 mchua martin_xsa: ooh, yes.
17:43 martin_xsa and marcopg, we should devote a testing meeting to developer-tester relationships at some point... next week, week after, maybe?
17:44 tabitha_ Alastair and I are happy to review those pages and help with updating them
17:44 marcopg mchua: duh lost all the meeting, my brain is gone tonight
17:44 mchua: next week there is Sugarcamp
17:44 maybe week after?
17:44 unless we want to do it there
17:45 mchua tabitha_, aly: That would be awesome. How does this sound? When the meeting notes go up, we'll have the list of g1g1 activities, and whether someone here is testing them or not
17:45 tabitha_ definitely agree with Martin that we value the developers and give positive feedback on what works and what rocks about their activities
17:45 garycmartin martin_xsa: yep, some badge system that can say ~'10 ponies, 4 draggons' or some such is needed.
17:45 mchua tabitha_, aly: can you pick some Activities (as many as you want) for your group to take charge of testing until at least xmas, so we have those covered, and then...
17:45 marcopg tabitha_: I suspect even negative feedback will help!
17:45 tabitha_: I have the impression they currently feel like no one cares at all
17:46 mchua tabitha_, aly: ...and then let's go through the tests that you've already done, and try going through the [[How to test Activities]] "oracle-making" section and make good oracles for (1) the Activities you're testing, and if we have time (2) the Activities you've tested before?
17:46 tabitha_, aly : and if we have time after /that/, I'
17:46 tabitha_, aly : whoops, hit enter too soon
17:46 Caryl Don't forget to sign them up on the testing page so folks know what still needs to be workied on
17:47 mchua tabitha_, aly : all of that is a prelude - if we have enough time after that, I'd love the wellington group to be the ones exploring how we can build excellent test/developer relationships
17:48 tabitha_, aly : I am not sure how that should happen, but I think that you folks are probably the best group to tackle it right now, since you have done a lot of "deep" Activity testing and can immediately talk with devs about it now
17:48 tabitha_, aly : (I know that was a lot; what do you think?)
17:48 tabitha_ All good from here, that is what christmas lead up is all about, sitting around drinking coffee and testing XOs
17:48 mchua woo!
17:49 kevix heh
17:49 tabitha_ I have nothing better to do ;-p and get lots of enjoyment out of it
17:49 mchua I *think* that takes care of those two agenda items
17:49 (how-to-test and how-to-report-results)
17:49 anything else on those?
17:49 tabitha_ tick
17:49 mchua ...I'm going to take that as a yes
17:49 next thing!
17:49 (we're almost done!)
17:49 Agenda item: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Acti[…]esting_automation
17:50 adricnet and I were supposed to come up with a design
17:50 garycmartin and kevix joined in, and that's what we came up with
17:50 Design review welcome before the coding starts
17:50 garycmartin managed to get in touch with zach, the developer of Sugarbot
17:51 which probably will be *super* useful in implementing this
17:51 I think we'll probably need some developer feedback on the sanity of that design before we can really have a good convo about it here, so I'd propose that we discuss this on the list, I'll try to bring developers in for sanity checking, and then we can check in next week on how it's doing
17:52 how does that sound?
17:52 garycmartin mchua: I'll be tring to test sugarboot as it on an XO, though Zach does not indicate that this was it's function, he suggests it may still work.
17:52 mchua garycmartin: <3
17:52 garycmartin: if you can keep working with zach on sugarbot, that would be *super* helpful
17:52 marcopg I might try to look into sugarbot + buildbot
17:53 but not sure when I'll get time for it :/
17:53 mchua marcopg: we should get together with cjb to check out sugarbot + tinderbox integration, too
17:53 garycmartin marcopg: yep, that was zach's other plan.
17:53 marcopg garycmartin: yeah, and please keep the sugar list informed about progresses with zach
17:53 mchua marcopg: either during or after sugarcamp, methinks
17:53 marcopg mchua: we should allocate some time at sugarcamp for autotest I think
17:53 mchua garycmartin: titus brown = another good person to talk to, iirc
17:53 martin_xsa i suspect that automated testing is not very interesting to volunteer testers
17:54 it's fun to test activities :-)
17:54 and it's a bit of a social event
17:54 marcopg yeah, might be more interesting to developers
17:54 Caryl right
17:54 mchua anna_bham: do you still want to keep playing with dsh? ;) there's plenty of things that we could do with that and garycmartin's scripts, especially since you have access to an actual deployment
17:54 martin_xsa (IMHO, YMMV)
17:55 anna_bham mchua:  I'd be happy to keep playing with dsh, but I won't be able to in an actual school quite yet
17:55 garycmartin martin_xsa: hoping natural language bugs wil be reported by humans, we'll then implement as test scripts to make sure bugs are reproducable/testable.
17:55 mchua anna_bham: understood
17:55 tabitha_ Got to love you and leave you now
17:56 anna_bham mchua:  I've tried to make my XS test platform be as close to the sort of infrastructure at a school as I can
17:56 kevix anna_bham: you can still try dsh on your testing setup
17:56 mchua Hm, I think that pretty well covers automated testing, actually - garycmartin is working on sugarbot with zach, I'll catch up with anna_bham on dsh, marcopg and I will join the sugarbot party when sugarcamp/g1g1 madness passes...
17:56 anna_bham, meet martin_xsa. martin_xsa, anna_bham. Birmingham deployment, XS user. ;)
17:56 Anything else on automated testing?
17:56 garycmartin tabitha_: bye!
17:56 mchua tabitha_: thank you for coming!
17:56 marcopg I will try to send feedback on your ideas
17:56 fhop thanks for coming tabitha!
17:57 marcopg haven't had time to read them, yet :/
17:57 mchua marcopg: <3
17:57 kevix bye tabitha_
17:57 garycmartin mchua: any feed back regarding bash scripts?
17:57 mchua: (ignoring dsh ;-)
17:58 mchua garycmartin: not yet, but after anna_bham and I start working on dsh-like-things I think we'll have some stuff for you pretty soon
17:58 Anything else on automated testing? We're almost out of time
17:58 I'd like to stick around afterwards if anyone has feedback on how these meetings + the test community are going, too - we've done this for 3 weeks so far and it's probably time to take a step back and see what's going well, what could be better, etc.
17:59 Automated testing, anything? Anybody?
17:59 (Anything else for this meeting, last-minute things?)
17:59 Going...
17:59 ...going...
17:59 #endmeeting

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