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#olpc-au, 2014-09-09

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 bashintosh after this gonzalo_ moves the ticket to status=RESOLVED
00:00 no rocket science, are we all following?
00:00 tch__ yeh
00:00 walterbender bashintosh, resolved from the POV of the developer
00:00 bashintosh walterbender: correct
00:00 walterbender bashintosh, question
00:00 tch__ so basically no more QA parallel tickers?
00:01 bashintosh tch__: correct
00:01 tch__ good
00:01 walterbender in the case of dimensions, niraj identifued 8 issues
00:01 are those all going to be in separate tickets?
00:01 (by way of example)
00:02 bashintosh walterbender: if the issues identified are unrelated to the original ticket, new bug tickets will be created
00:02 gonzalo_ bashintosh, the million dollar question, what about new activities development? will be a single ticket summarizing all the work in a new activity?
00:02 like we do in https://olpcau.atlassian.net/w[…]/display/OEA/Poll
00:03 walterbender gonzalo_, that is my point...
00:03 bashintosh gonzalo_: nope we'll use EPICS - an epic is a container that keeps tickets related to a single small project all grouped
00:03 walterbender finding the right level of granularity is key
00:03 bashintosh so we have an epic POLL
00:03 gonzalo_ bashintosh, look at the last comment from Paul in the link I pasted
00:03 bashintosh then under, various tickets that are mini-subtasks
00:04 tch__ gonzalo_, same applies to features
00:04 gonzalo_ paulcotton, your last comment is a good example
00:04 bashintosh to see how an epic works, please look @https://olpcau.atlassian.net/b[…]oject%20%3D%20OEP
00:04 gonzalo_ bashintosh, paulcotton, would be crazy open a ticket for every point
00:05 paulcotton I think we will open one ticket for new activity development, and then use sub-tasks and test sessions within that.
00:05 So that we keep everything in one place, but we can still divide it up a bit.
00:06 bashintosh can we finish with the workflow then we can discuss?
00:06 paulcotton For the main development task, anyway
00:06 Sure
00:06 gonzalo_ bashintosh, sorry sir
00:06 paulcotton has left #olpc-au
00:06 bashintosh gonzalo_: ahah
00:06 paulcotton <paulcotton!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #olpc-au
00:06 bashintosh bye paul
00:06 paulcotton Oops :D
00:07 bashintosh alright to continue, after status=RESOLVED the ticket is assigned to Niraj_ by gonzalo_ (the developer)
00:07 Niraj_: will start QA and move the ticket status to TESTING of course
00:08 walterbender but...
00:09 bashintosh from here, very simple: (a) issues are found and the ticket status moves to REOPENED and assignee is again gonzalo_  (b) all is good and ticket status moves to CLOSED
00:09 walterbender if there are multiple subtasks. we may want to resolve some for testing before finishing them all?
00:09 or is that too complex?
00:10 paulcotton Niraj_: your thoughts?
00:10 bashintosh walterbender: if testing is not useful until the subtasks are ready (in RESOLVED status) yes that can work
00:10 walterbender: discussing what we do in JIRA almost daily is the key for all this to work
00:11 gonzalo_ bashintosh, who assign the tasks?
00:11 paulcotton Depends on the status, Gonzalo
00:11 So I'll make a ticket initially
00:11 bashintosh +1
00:11 paulcotton And then assign it when it gets popped into a sprint
00:11 Then you or Walter will work on it, and move it to resolved, - and then you'll assign it to Niraj
00:12 Niraj might then close it off, or assign it back after he's done his bit
00:12 walterbender that all makes sense
00:13 bashintosh walterbender: tch__ gonzalo_ Niraj_ all good so far?
00:13 walterbender +1
00:13 gonzalo_ yes
00:13 tch__ yep
00:13 one question,
00:13 bashintosh tch__: please!
00:14 BTW let's test https://olpcau.atlassian.net/browse/OEP-217
00:14 tch__ when is the time log used?
00:14 bashintosh tch__: veeeeery good one!
00:15 ideally, when we create a ticket we discuss or try to insert an estimate
00:15 which again you can see how I've done here https://olpcau.atlassian.net/browse/OEP-217
00:15 right column - estimated
00:15 this is something we need to practice on, so no worries if initially we put crazy values
00:16 after, when gonzalo_ finishes the work and moves the ticket to RESOLVED + sets assignee Niraj_
00:17 gonzalo will also click on LOG WORK just at the centre of the ticket summary
00:17 and put the average time he spent on that ticket
00:17 gonzalo_ average time?
00:18 tch__ you mean the sum?
00:18 bashintosh gonzalo_: you start the work at 9am and finish at 12am... meanwhile you had a coffee and took 10mins break... average time 3hrs
00:18 gonzalo_ that is not average :)
00:18 paulcotton lol, you work horse
00:18 walterbender bashintosh, this is insane
00:18 bashintosh tch__: yes if you work on the ticket on different times
00:19 walterbender: care to explain why?
00:19 walterbender I need to clock all the time spend thinking about things?
00:19 bashintosh I meant 12pm above
00:19 paulcotton: :p
00:19 walterbender I don't work by sitting down and plowing through a problem from a to z
00:19 gonzalo_ bashintosh, pedantic math  lesson: AVERAGE = SUM(N1 + N2 + N3 + ... Nz)/ z
00:19 walterbender I don't know anyone who develops that way
00:20 bashintosh walterbender: you don't have to write down the exact seconds you spent on a task walter
00:20 walterbender just so you know that these numbers will be very noisy
00:21 bashintosh walterbender: you only know how much time you dedicate to a task, can be 3hrs, 4hrs or 12days, doesn't matter as long as you have an average idea of how long it took you
00:21 tch__ can we say is an estimate then?
00:21 in hours
00:21 bashintosh walterbender: no problem, will be a mess at the beginning then we shall get better at it
00:21 tch__: yes
00:21 gonzalo_ estimate is a more correct word than average
00:21 paulcotton In my opinion, it's more of a punch card. "I spent about 2 hours working on wireframes this morning so I'll just log that. And another hour this afternoon, so I'll log that." and eventually we'll get a better idea of it
00:22 Estimate +1
00:22 bashintosh tch__: gonzalo_ walterbender you can use LOG WORK multiple times for the same ticket and log the various iterations
00:23 gonzalo_ paulcotton, bashintosh, this works ok with big tasks, like how many hours we work in one activity
00:23 if we go to every little task, will be too much
00:24 bashintosh gonzalo_: what is big and what is small?
00:24 gonzalo_ bashintosh, big task: redesign poll activity
00:24 small: align title in create poll screen
00:24 change size in input fields
00:25 change color in the button
00:25 ....
00:25 paulcotton Logging each of those individually would be a pain in the ass
00:25 bashintosh gonzalo_: well if align title in create poll screen is a ticket, time needs to be logged? 5minutes spent? 5 minutes logged is fine
00:25 gonzalo_ bashintosh, please look at how are we working with paulcotton
00:25 paulcotton But logging them as a group would make more sense.
00:25 gonzalo_ bashintosh, then i will work more in filling the tickets than doing the tasks
00:26 bashintosh I looked @https://olpcau.atlassian.net/w[…]/display/OEA/Poll and took me 10minutes to scroll to the bottom. :(
00:26 walterbender and that is a problem why?
00:26 gonzalo_ bashintosh, now imagine how many tickets can we create
00:27 i think the method we was working with paulcotton worked
00:27 bashintosh folks let's not be too worried please - it's a practice that will be hard at the beginning but it's just a mind set honestly
00:27 gonzalo_ a single place with all the information, fast fedback, usually in the same day
00:28 bashintosh, no problem, just pointing that the key issue here is the balance
00:28 bashintosh gonzalo_: you end up with that massive bundle of text which only you and paulcotton can understand right away because you guys work on that every day. For anybody external wanting to get what's going on, it's a nightmare
00:28 walterbender gonzalo_, maybe after our JIRA class we will know better how to find all the scattered part of multiple tickets
00:29 paulcotton All things going to plan we should still have a single spot, grouped/filtered under Epics and laid out on the agile board
00:29 walterbender bashintosh, I respectfully disagree,
00:29 but I am willing to try it
00:29 gonzalo_ paulcotton, we are in your hands :)
00:29 bashintosh gonzalo_: then we shall find our balance nobody is saying that we should work like nazi(s)
00:29 gonzalo_ you will create the tickets
00:29 paulcotton Terrifying ;)
00:30 Yep.
00:30 bashintosh walterbender: yes the JIRA training will definitely help you
00:30 tch__ if we use this, can this replace our weekly reports?
00:31 walterbender looking forward to it... since I find JIRA very difficult to navigate at the moment
00:31 bashintosh tch__: YES!
00:31 paulcotton That's actually part of the plan in the end
00:31 tch__ good!
00:31 bashintosh tch__: it will be easy to pull the report directly out of JIRA
00:32 tch__ hopefully, JIRA has a "do my report" feature
00:32 bashintosh during the training they will also take you through AGILE with JIRA https://olpcau.atlassian.net/s[…]jspa?rapidView=17
00:33 tch__: yes it has many reporting features, more than you need at times!
00:33 so you will learn about the swimlanes and how sprints work in JIRA
00:33 paulcotton The agile board is probably the easiest place to get an idea of what's going on (when it's being used properly)
00:34 tch__ bashintosh, will you control the agile stuff?
00:34 so we can focus on tickets?
00:34 bashintosh tch__: nope we will!
00:35 tch__: gonzalo_ walterbender the key to AGILE to work in an agile way is... meeeeeetings and constant review of what we're doing.
00:35 paulcotton It's a bit of a mix. Changing a status effectively moves it along the board.
00:35 tch__ does it require more interaction with JIRA or is something generated by the tickets activities?
00:35 paulcotton, ah ok
00:35 gonzalo_ bashintosh, when we will do that meetings?
00:35 paulcotton I'm going to log onto chat every morning
00:36 Just to be more available.
00:36 bashintosh tch__: if you move the ticket status it will also move the ticket through the swimlanes
00:36 gonzalo_ paulcotton, SYD morning?
00:36 paulcotton I know you guys aren't always here, but I'm going to make a habit of being around.
00:36 bashintosh tch__: it's just another way to see the status of the sprint
00:36 paulcotton Syd morning.
00:36 walterbender these meetings late into the evening are not optimal
00:37 gonzalo_ paulcotton, don't offense, but I hope don't need meet every night
00:37 paulcotton No, we've got a tricky situation for everyone :)
00:37 No no, that's not what I'm saying
00:37 tch__ we should move to an island in the middle of the pacific, so it would be fair :)
00:37 bashintosh tch__: I'll join...
00:37 walterbender I am happy to host you all in Boston
00:37 gonzalo_ Pascua Island!
00:37 paulcotton I'm just saying that I will be on here, just to increase the frequency of catching each other.
00:38 tch__ +1 boston, food is great
00:38 bashintosh walterbender: tch__ gonzalo_ we can try to have the meetings a bit earlier so it's better for you too
00:39 paulcotton I think we might start with a weekly meeting?
00:39 walterbender that is OK
00:39 paulcotton And yeah, we can meet earlier.
00:39 gonzalo_ we need acknowledge our differnt time zones situation, if a method is designed to have on site meetings of 15 minutes every morning we can find a way to do it in another way
00:40 by example
00:40 with our long jira pages, I almost every day reported advances, and sent a version to test
00:40 walterbender me too
00:41 gonzalo_ the exeptions were when I finished the day with nothing testeable
00:41 then paulcotton can see and give feedback while I was slipping
00:41 walterbender or in the days of early development like Reflect... where I go backwards as much as forward
00:41 gonzalo_ in the next morning I usually had good feedback
00:41 paulcotton, that worked for you?
00:42 paulcotton We should essentially have the same system
00:42 gonzalo_ +1
00:42 paulcotton I don't think anyone is going to be shaking up their circadian rhythm.
00:43 Largely, we're going to be trying to move the conversation / task list into a ticketed form, and involve Niraj with testing smaller changes more frequently.
00:43 gonzalo_ I said that, because agile development is very specific about some of these things
00:43 paulcotton And the ticketing process (open / in progress / resolve / test / close) *should* facilitate that.
00:45 tch__ alright, we will need to be more verbose too, ie., all this au2a stuff is not being reflected in jira
00:45 bashintosh so this turned into a JIRA-only meeting which is fine - just to end with glory and not sorrow, are there any other questions or things not clear so far?
00:46 tch__ we need to reflect things that don't necessarily creates a deliverable
00:46 gonzalo_ tch__, like?
00:46 walterbender bashintosh, we need to reflect *after* we do the training on Thursday
00:46 but the basic workflow makes sense
00:46 tch__ a research for why flashes wasn't working when creating the images
00:46 bashintosh walterbender: sounds fair
00:46 gonzalo_ tch__, should be a ticket open for that
00:46 walterbender with all of these types of systems, finding the right granularity is key
00:47 tch__ yes, but there are emerging things,
00:47 should I create these tickets then?
00:47 bashintosh #action touch base on JIRA topics *after* the training for gonzalo_ walterbender tch__
00:47 paulcotton walterbender: agreed
00:47 walterbender OK... /me needs to go... dinner
00:48 paulcotton Honestly, I think we have a good start.
00:48 bashintosh tch__: can we get an idea of the areas of work you refer with "emerging things"?
00:49 tch__ bashintosh, some times I discover things which become blockers for some task I am doing,
00:49 which is not exclusive for the task,
00:49 so it can be considered a task itself
00:49 in those cases, do I create a new sub-task ticket?
00:50 bashintosh tch__: yes it makes sense if you create your own tickets in that case - they would work more as a report
00:50 tch__: the trick is to associate the new ticket to the correct component
00:51 tch__: so if the ticket is about say, an issue with OOB, the right component will be OS Development
00:52 tch__ bashintosh, ok
00:52 bashintosh tch__: when you're done with that ticket, it moves into status=RESOLVED and assignee Niraj_ if it needs QA or bashintosh if it needs review, other things related
00:53 tch__: would that work? try, we can definitely adjust the process
00:55 tch__ bashintosh, I think so, but I am not sure we should assign everything to Niraj. ie., when I fix something in oob.. but in general of course we should
00:56 bashintosh, it depends really, if we over QA Niraj can get overloaded and I can get blocked, both more than necessary
00:57 anyway, lets see how this goes :)
00:57 paulcotton Might just have to see what happens, Niraj will tell us if things are getting too heavy
00:57 gonzalo_ ok, guys, we will do the training and see
00:58 Niraj_ tch__: not necessarily, you need to assign every ticket to QA, if you feel it requires QA, you can pass it to me, and if you think you need a review, you can choose appropriate team member for review, otherwise you can push directly to close.
00:59 tch__ Niraj_, +1
01:00 gonzalo_ guys, need go to dinner
01:00 Niraj_ tch__: I suggest, you can assign some task to me when you are not confident and need more thorough testing and planning to release some deliverable. Generally I would like to go through each stuff which goes out like, Bug, Feature development, Activity release
01:01 tch__ yeah, again this is a matter of balance,
01:01 Niraj_ tch__: definatley
01:01 paulcotton The first couple of months we'll spend figuring stuff out, I suspect.
01:03 tch__ alright guys, TTYL :)
01:03 paulcotton Alrighty :D Have a good evening :D
01:03 Niraj_ paulcotton: true, we can start with this and modify processes based on our need if that adds more overhead
01:04 gonzalo_ paulcotton, check Poll ;)
01:04 bashintosh walterbender: tch__ gonzalo_ letting you know that we'll handle the first JIRA training session in-house and book a second team session after that. This is due to costing issues after our team has already done the training.
01:04 will follow that up with an email
01:05 gonzalo_ ok, let us know
01:05 paulcotton Thanks gonzalo_ , will do :D
01:05 bashintosh #endmeeting
01:05 meeting Meeting ended Tue Sep  9 01:05:43 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
01:05 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/o[…]-08T23:46:45.html
01:05 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/o[…]14-09-08T23:46:45

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