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#fedora-olpc, 2009-12-31

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Time Nick Message
10:13 sdziallas okey dokey - how about a quick roll-call?
10:13 mchua here
10:13 sdziallas #TOPIC roll-call
10:13 SMParrish here
10:13 adimania here
10:13 sdziallas too
10:14 (just for reference: jnettlet was here a few seconds ago, he won't make it for this meeting, but hopefully for the next ones)
10:14 cool!
10:14 #TOPIC introduction
10:15 so well, this is about how we make sugar in F13 better
10:15 mchua, SMParrish, I and others had some discussions on this at the last FUDCon
10:16 the idea was to get activities packaged.
10:16 because we wanted to be able to let users install them easily and to comply with Fedora policies.
10:16 (anybody: correct me if I missed anything)
10:17 #LINK https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sugar_Activities
10:17 SMParrish sounds good so far
10:17 sdziallas so this is the current state of the Sugar activities in Fedora.
10:17 (our model so far is F11 = Sugar 0.84; F12 = Sugar 0.86; F13 = Sugar 0.88)
10:18 looking at that list... we need people who help us packaging activities.
10:19 and what's especially important is to take the task and to continue doing it (probably together with other people)
10:19 because we've had quite a lot of outdated activities lately and it doesn't look too good to ship that, right? ;)
10:20 so what I had in mind is this:
10:20 everybody who wants to signs up for an activity he wants to package after exploring it.
10:21 and then we go and take a look at what happened together each week.
10:21 of course, we'll need people reviewing the rpms, too.
10:22 we'll have a packaging introduction session for those who are new to it on Jan 6 (which will entirely focus on Sugar activities), so that's another thing that might help.
10:22 does that make sense so far?
10:22 mchua Making sense - I have a few questions, when there's time.
10:22 adimania I liked the process
10:23 sdziallas cool :)
10:23 mchua: I guess... just shoot!
10:23 #TOPIC questions
10:23 SMParrish Sounds good to me and I can review the pkgs and sponsor people as needed
10:23 mchua Who uses Sugar packages on Fedora? Is it primarily developers, existing Fedora users who want to try out Sugar, random people (who aren't yet Fedora users) who want to try out Sugar (is Fedora "the easiest way to try out Sugar")?
10:24 (or rather, who do we want to target as a userbase?)
10:24 sdziallas SMParrish: cool! yes, having somebody we can sponsor people would be awesome.
10:24 mchua: right... I should have probably started with that (sorry).
10:24 mchua Who does this make life easier for? I can see how it would make Fedora-N-on-XO-M and SoaS easier to maintain.
10:25 But I'm wondering if I'm missing more advantages to more people that would incentivize others to join the packaging party. ;)
10:25 sdziallas mchua: so the idea we discussed partly at FUDCon was also to give Fedora some solution (like a spin, which might be SoaS or whatever) it could broadly promote.
10:25 SMParrish Getting all these activites into Fedora will let people install and run sugar just like any other desktop as well\
10:26 sdziallas mchua: that's the first thing: so it'd get Sugar to more people - through such a solution.
10:26 the second this is exactly what SMParrish said. it'll basically mature and become a simply installable desktop.
10:27 developers might still want to use jhbuild, but it might be interesting to provide a solution in a chroot instead (but that's a bit off-topic, I guess)
10:28 wonders whether he has missed anything
10:28 mchua So this would be a Sugar deployment mechanism for users who aren't necessarily developers.
10:28 And who may not be Fedora users yet, too.
10:28 sdziallas nods.
10:29 adimania We might get some more sugar loving users for Fedora by adding more packages
10:29 sdziallas I don't think we should lose the developers target entirely, but one step at a time, right?
10:29 adimania: yes, good point!
10:29 does mchua's summary sound like something everybody agrees with?
10:30 SMParrish yes
10:30 sdziallas if so, I'll tell it our famous meetbot, heh. ;)
10:30 if not, let's refine it.
10:30 adimania I agree
10:30 mchua It'd be a good selling point for getting Fedora folks to help with packaging (as adimania pointed out, more Sugar-loving users for Fedora) and also Sugar people (yay more deploying of Sugar).
10:31 sdziallas yes, right.
10:31 in fact, it might be a good way of establishing a connection between these Fedora folks and Sugar people.
10:31 #AGREED we want a Sugar deployment mechanism for users who aren't necessarily developers!
10:33 okay, so let's see... how do we want to proceed? a little bit more brainstorming, probably how to promote this effort ("OAPW - one activity per week" heh.) or move to talking about who's interested in doing what?
10:34 self-notes: next meetings will have an agenda.
10:34 mchua It sounds like we're in need of more people to help with the packaging/maintaining effort.
10:35 sdziallas mchua: that's entirely true.
10:35 mchua What's the easiest way to recruit?
10:35 sdziallas #TOPIC people for the packaging effort
10:35 mchua Tell existing Fedora packagers "hey, help out," teach Sugar developers/Activity maintainers how to package, etc?
10:36 What's the time commitment needed - how much time does it take to learn how to package an Activity, package it, and maintain ig?
10:36 er it?
10:36 and update it for each release?
10:36 (as a rough estimate, on average.)
10:36 sdziallas mchua: I *think* it might be a bit hard to convince all the activity maintainers to package things for Fedora. which is why interested users and people from Fedora would be good, but also - as you said - Sugar people.
10:37 mchua: Sugar activities are simple. :)
10:37 adimania Many people who don't know how to package but are interested in learning should be informed via mailing lists about the classroom session to be organized on 6 Jan
10:37 sdziallas adimania: +1!
10:37 mchua I'm looking forward to that.
10:37 sdziallas mchua: so it's not that hard to get started - I suppose something like two hours should be good for starters.
10:37 mchua: probably even less.
10:38 mchua: and depending on what activity one picks, updating is pretty easy, too.
10:38 so here's what I'd suggest we'd ask people to do:
10:38 mchua Assuming they're already a Fedora user, and know what packaging is, I'm guessing.
10:38 nods
10:38 quiet, listening
10:38 sdziallas mchua: well, activities don't change a lot (usually) - so it's probably a matter of ten minutes.
10:39 (so after the initial two hours or something, it gets easier)
10:39 * somebody attends a packaging session (we might want to have more, dunno)
10:39 SMParrish Yes maintenance is not that bad at all, its the initial work that takes time
10:39 sdziallas * he decides "this is INTERESTING, I want to help this effort"
10:40 * he joins the meetings and signs up for his activity, which he has probably already explored before.
10:40 * he signs up to the sugar-devel list.
10:40 mchua Ok. I'd want to make sure that message ("it's not *that* hard or that much time") gets through loud and clear, because I have the impression that packaging is seen as This Hard Thing.
10:40 sdziallas this one is important! because that's where the release announcements go.
10:41 adimania mchua: +1
10:41 sdziallas mchua: agreed! (do you want to take it a bit from here there?)
10:42 mchua well, if I go through learning this, I'll be complaining loudly and fixing the ease-of-contribution bugs, so. ;)
10:42 sdziallas mchua: hehe :) yes, right...
10:42 well, if anybody else wants to blog about what we're doing here, this might be a good thing, too, I guess.
10:43 #IDEA get the message out: packaging is /not/ hard!
10:44 I guess I'll take a minute to make a list in the wiki why it's not hard and what needs to be done.
10:45 adimania I suppose that if we can write a short tutorial out of the classroom session, it'll help others who missed to attend too and will help judging the ease of packaging
10:45 walterbender sdziallas: sorry to be tuning in so late... I had my head wrapped around some writing...
10:45 sdziallas #ACTION sdziallas to create something in the wiki how to get started with this effort
10:45 SMParrish sdziallas: include a sample spec file from an existing package to give them an idea of what it looks like
10:45 sdziallas walterbender: no worries, cool to have you joining us! :)
10:45 walterbender sdziallas: I just read the back log and I have an idealet about how to make Sugar packages more generally relevant
10:46 sdziallas adimania: yes, right... we should make sure to document the packaging session well enough!
10:46 #ACTION document packaging session on Jan 6
10:46 SMParrish: +1
10:46 walterbender: your turn! :)
10:46 walterbender sdziallas: an only pet peeve of mine: having Sugar activities run from outside of Sugar
10:47 sdziallas: I am not an expert, but I have managed to get Turtle Art and Visual Match and SlideRuler to run pretty well from the shell
10:47 sdziallas walterbender: would it make sense to try to get .desktop files done which run an activity from the panel?
10:48 walterbender It would be nice to put together some guidelines for that... then people might find it more useful to maintain the packaging of some of the activities
10:48 sdziallas nods
10:49 walterbender: are you already doing .desktop files for these activities?
10:49 walterbender sdziallas: it is not too hard to modify a Sugar app to run from the shell... and to hobble together a .desktop file.
10:49 sdziallas or is this something we should look into?
10:49 ah, okay.
10:49 walterbender you lose the journal and sharing and sugar toolbars... but...
10:49 sdziallas: I need help with the desktop files...
10:49 sdziallas for starters, it might give people an idea of *what* they're packaging, in case they don't want to run sugar-emulator each time.
10:50 #IDEA check how we can have sugar activities run from a terminal
10:50 mchua would this put us in the situation of having to support an Activity in two different environments?
10:50 (er, that wasn't phrased well. lemme try to restate)
10:50 walterbender I know how to make them for things that are installed in /usr/share/sugar, but not for ~/Activities
10:50 mchua would "oh and they can run in normal desktops now" be something that would potentially add more work for Activity developers/maintainers/people-s​upporting-users-of-Activities?
10:50 walterbender mchua: yes and no. the shell version will always be a subset... with just a little additional code to maintain...
10:51 but I suppose it will add to the support version.
10:51 mchua (Is it /that/ bad to ask people to run sugar-emulator?)
10:51 walterbender I mostly use it for debugging purposes...
10:52 mchua: I think it is better to offer some access outside of the emulator, but that is a minority opinion.
10:52 mchua I mean, we seem to take the stance that Sugar is an environment, not "just" a collection of "games"
10:52 and that the environment part is important - that its design really enhances and supports the learning experience
10:52 walterbender mchua: I agree. but getting people involved may mean reaching out to where they are
10:52 which may not be the Sugar environment...
10:53 if they, for example, get into Turtle Art, then they may get sucked into Sugar, which gives them a richer Turtle Art experience
10:53 adimania I think we should also do what walterbender is suggesting. There is no harm in putting some guidelines. Let the users decide what they want.
10:53 walterbender mchua: I may be wrong, but I think it is not too much work to reach out in this way
10:54 mchua Hopefully. :) Point taken - we should make sure that "path to Sugar" is clear, then
10:54 sdziallas nods
10:54 walterbender adimania: I can write up the activity-related guidelines, but I need help on the packaging front
10:54 mchua ("you like Turtle Art? Great, it's so much better in Sugar... you want to try Sugar...")
10:55 sdziallas mchua: that sounds like an interesting approach, yes.
10:55 adimania walterbender: there is a classroom session on packaging on 6 Jan.
10:56 walterbender adimania: I'll try to attend.
10:56 adimania mchua: +1
10:57 mchua My primary worry is the support delta.
10:57 But if we have a lot of people using the shell version of an Activity and not migrating to trying out Sugar, and it causes a support delta we have to resolve, then... that's actually not a bad problem to have; that's pressure and momentum to get things fixed.
10:58 sdziallas well, how about this: we get a list of tasks that we need to think about (which becomes actually our agenda for the meetings) and put this one down.
10:58 s/down/down in that list
10:59 (together with the task of finding more people to join the fun here)
10:59 walterbender mchua: re support, to date, it has been a non-issue for the 3-4 activities I maintain. But that could be because no one knows that they can run from the shell :)
11:00 mchua grins
11:00 for the record, I'm here because I'm interested in making it easier for $random_new_people to contribute to Sugar, and I see this as one potentially low-entry-barrier, high-leverage way for them to get started.
11:00 and I'm checking to see if that hypothesis is true, right now.
11:01 I suspect SMParrish and sdziallas are interested in packaging because it makes maintenance of Fedora-on-XO and SoaS, respectively, much easier.
11:02 walterbender seems interested in (among other things ;) making Activities easier for more people to use and try.
11:02 sdziallas mchua: crap, you revealed our intentions ;)
11:02 mchua I don't believe I've had the pleasure of talking with adimania much before - is there a particular aspect you're interested in, out of curiosity?
11:03 dsd_ i missed the start of the meeting - have we discussed the pros and cons of activities as packages vs activities as .xo installed in /home ?
11:03 SMParrish mchua: your right it does improve those efforts, but I also want to see the user if Sugar expand.  No reason a family PC can't have Gnome or KDE for the adults to use and Sugar for the kids
11:03 mchua dsd_: I think we started with the assumption that we wanted Activities packaged, independent of whether or not they're also deployed as .xos.
11:03 sdziallas mchua: this is true.
11:06 looks at his watch, wonders if we want to dive deeper and wrap it up for now.
11:06 heroid hey glys whats up
11:06 hey gent
11:06 is the meeting happening?
11:06 !meeting?
11:06 !meeting
11:06 !help
11:06 gent yes
11:07 sdziallas hi heroid, gent! yes, we were discussing how to get people interested in packaging sugar activities...
11:07 goes looking for the backlog
11:07 gent aha great sdziallas
11:07 mchua dsd_: the (very) old discussion on rpms and xos is logged https://fedoraproject.org/wiki[…]_session_20090110
11:08 I don't know that anything has changed since then
11:08 gent sdziallas, me and heroid are from FLOSSK (Free/Libre Open Source Software Kosova) you can join  the channel on freenode #flossk
11:09 sdziallas gent: ah, cool!
11:09 gent We are working on OSM and we would like to have a OPEN STREET MAP application on SUGAR
11:10 sdziallas has some trouble loading meeting.laptop.org right now, will post the log later.
11:11 gent: oh, interesting. have you already posted that idea to sugar-devel?
11:11 mchua gent: have you seen http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/Map ? Replacing the Google Maps portion with OSM seems like a logical place to start.
11:11 sdziallas mchua: whoa! I didn't know there was a map activity
11:12 heroid sorry guys im a bit busy
11:12 i can jioin the conversation later
11:12 bttw i have a OLPC
11:12 its flossks
11:12 dsd_ part
11:12 gent ME TOO A XO1
11:13 mchua sdziallas: It might be time to wrap up the meeting itself, and then continue discussion with whoever wants to keep on going (and log it) afterwards.
11:13 sdziallas mchua: right, I'd agree with that.
11:13 so let's wrap the meeting - and follow up on-list and in the wiki.
11:14 next date is the packaging session on Jan 6, for those who're interested.
11:14 a gobby installation is helpful, btw.
11:14 #endmeeting

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