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#etoys, 2012-12-04

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Time Nick Message
00:01 CWong_ @HELP I'm a Google Code-In 2012 student new to Etoys and Sugar i18n, but I could use some pointers on the i18n process. I am working to add internationalization support to FreeCell.
00:11 CWong__ <CWong__!~44c5eb76@europa.immuexa.com> has joined #etoys
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00:13 CWong__ @HELP @bertf Sorry, accidentally closed the page earlier. Just looking for some help as a Sugar/Etoys newbie on the i18n process for Etoys.
00:14 CWong__ has quit IRC
02:17 Mokurai bertf: Do you know how to get hold of CWong?
08:24 Mokurai has quit IRC
08:31 meeting <meeting!~sugaroid@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #etoys
15:28 Mokurai <Mokurai!~mokurai@c-69-246-202-96.hsd1.in.comcast.net> has joined #etoys
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16:28 CWong_ @HELP @+bertf Hey - I was sent here by Walter Bender to ask for some help with i18n for Etoys - I'm a relative newbie to Sugar completing tasks for the Google Code-in
16:28 @HELP I'd appreciate any help/advice.
16:29 bertf CWong_: hi
16:29 CWong_ bertf: hi.
16:30 bertf You mean my Freecell activity I guess?
16:30 CWong_ Yes indeed.
16:30 The task is to add i18n support to Freecell
16:31 bertf and it's not translated? Does the one in Etoys work?
16:31 I just switched to German and ran the Freecell in Etoys. It *is* translated.
16:32 CWong_ Hm.
16:32 That's interesting. I had also been to Pootle and did not find Freecell under Etoys,
16:32 bertf Try it - launch Etoys, switch language, e.g. to German, get Freecell from the Object Catalogue
16:32 CWong_ Right.,
16:33 bertf Spanish works too
16:33 what language did you try? maybe it's just not translated yet
16:34 CWong_ I'm aware that there is a sugarized version that is available under Sugar activities
16:35 bertf the freecell activity is just a demo, it does not implement Freecell, but shows the one in Etoys
16:35 CWong_ Right.
16:35 That's actually originally why I came to this IRC - because I was unsure of what exactly needed translation
16:36 So Walter sent me over to talk to you - the task simply says to add i18n to Freecell, but when I checked I didn't find any problems
16:36 bertf well it is possible that i never tried the Freecell activity in another language
16:36 oh, so it *does* work?
16:37 CWong_ I don't know. I only knew that when I went to Pootle and could not find Freecell
16:37 bertf the Freecell strings are in the Etoys project
16:38 CWong_ Yes, but it didn't come up for translation
16:38 bertf not sure what you mean. of course you can translate Etoys strings
16:39 you can go into the Etoys project and pick a language and search for "FreeCell"
16:40 CWong_ OK. I'm still new to localization/internationalization. Perhaps I did not use that properly.
16:40 bertf The strings are in Morphic.po
16:41 CWong_ I think that I might be getting this wrong.
16:41 OK. Is that on Pootle? Where do I go to get this?
16:42 bertf http://translate.sugarlabs.org[…]ojects/etoys_new/
16:43 pick a language, then use the search field
16:43 (pootle seems slow today)
16:44 But your very first step should be to install Freecell in Sugar and try it with different locales
16:45 CWong_ OK.
16:45 Then, do I just check for languages where it does not come up translated?
16:45 Then go into Pootle and translate for those strings?
16:46 bertf I'm not sure what your assignment is. Normally, a translator can only do her own language.
16:46 CWong_ Right.
16:46 bertf But finding out if it works would be the first step. It does work in Etoys, perhaps it does not in the stand-alone activity.
16:47 If so then you would have to start learning Squeak to be able to hack on Etoys
16:47 CWong_ The assignment is somewhat vague: "add internationalization support to Freecell"
16:47 bertf maybe they just listed  all activities that do not include PO files
16:48 which normally indicates that it is not translated
16:48 CWong_ Doesn't Freecell have a PO file?
16:48 bertf no. As I said, it's part of Etoys.
16:49 The strings are in Etoys Morphic.po
16:49 CWong_ The Morphic.po file.
16:49 bertf right
16:49 Look at the source code of the activity. it does almost nothing, except launch etoys and run freecell in it
16:50 CWong_ Yes. I saw that.
16:50 bertf okay. what else do you want to know?
16:51 CWong_ Ah, OK. Let me run the standalone activity
16:52 And then I can look into creating a separate PO file for that activity, correct?
16:52 Where would I upload the changes/po file once created?
16:59 bertf I guess you could fork my project
17:00 CWong_: http://git.sugarlabs.org/freecell/mainline
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21:07 Mokurai bertf: I just now tried Etoys in all available languages. Thanks.
21:09 bertf: Apparently I have to enable Pango for each script.
21:10 bertf: Apparently the fonts are already loaded. Whenever I click load font, it says it failed. This seems to be a bug.
21:11 bertf: PING
21:12 bertf Mokurai: IRC is not the right medium for bug reports
21:13 Mokurai I am not reporting it here. I am inquiring. Now how about responding to my thank you.
21:14 bertf: What is the load font behavior supposed to be?
21:16 bertf Ideally it should just work without asking the user anything.
21:16 Mokurai bertf: May I inquire about typing? Apparently I can only type Cyrillic if I have a Cyrillic
21:16 bertf: language enabled.
21:17 bertf if you enable pango it should work. the default font is Latin only
21:17 Mokurai bertf: I like to be able to type in mixed scripts. Does this mean that I have to change language for each script change?
21:17 bertf enable pango, it should be able to handle this
21:19 Mokurai bertf: It asks me to enable pango over again for every script change.
21:19 bertf: But I see that I can make one script change, enable pango, and then type in at least two scripts.
21:19 bertf: More tests to follow...
21:20 bertf yep. totally buggy. it just doesn't bother most users because they do not switch scripts
21:21 Mokurai bertf: OK, one script switch enables typing in all available scripts.
21:21 bertf only if you switch to a pango one
21:21 Mokurai bertf: I'll go document this behavior in the UI chapter of the Reference Manual.
21:22 bertf: Yes, that's what I mean by switching scripts, not just languages.
21:22 bertf ok
21:23 Mokurai bertf: The use case I have in mind is creating flash cards or bilingual dictionaries.
21:23 bertf instead of switching languages I think you can just enable pango in preferences
21:23 but really, it should be automatic
21:23 Mokurai bertf: It works well enough if you know how to get started.
21:23 bertf: Preferences, let's see...
21:25 bertf: Yes, enabling pango in the language dialog turns the preference on. OK.
21:27 bertf: Hmm. I must make a feature request (not here), that the preferences search function not only give the relevant preferences, but indicate which category each result is in.
21:28 bertf it does
21:28 click the pref, choose "show category..."
21:29 Mokurai bertf: Thank you. Well hidden. :(
21:30 bertf little use
21:30 Mokurai bertf: I see that some preferences appear in more than one category, and this function says which. Excellent.
21:31 bertf: Well, as you know, my attitude is that a reference manual should explain _everything_.
21:32 bertf IMHO it should explain everything *relevant*
21:32 otherwise it becomes useless due to TMI
21:32 Mokurai bertf: IMNSHO everything is relevant.
21:33 bertf if you can't find the answer to your problem at hand because there is heaps of remotely related stuff, it becomes useless
21:33 Mokurai bertf: The solution to TMI is navigation aids. I don't want users to have to read everything. I want them to have a straightforward path to finding the bits they need.
21:34 bertf yep, the information should be *somewhere*. but not necessarily in the first-ever version of our manual
21:34 Mokurai bertf: The first question is, What are things called? Hence the Glossary.
21:35 bertf: The information is in Etoys itself, but I am trying to remedy the undiscoverability problem.
21:35 bertf good goal
21:36 Mokurai bertf: Later we can discuss making things more discoverable without having to resort to a Reference Manual.\
21:36 bertf: Etoys/Squeak is by far the most discoverable programming language/environment I have dealt with. It can be even more so.
21:37 bertf for programmers I agree.
21:37 Mokurai bertf: I intend to pull out from the Reference Manual, when it is done, all of the particularly undiscoverable bits for my The Undiscoverable pages in the Sugar Labs wiki.
21:38 bertf sounds good. it's just that adding random stuff to the manual now only delays it
21:38 Mokurai bertf: I also intend to write something, perhaps in another manual, on how to go about discovering Etoys and Squeak.
21:39 bertf: This is not random. It is systematic on my part. Have you looked at what I did in the Common Tiles chapter that I just finished a pass over?
21:40 bertf I did not, but I see Rita and pals struggling to finish the book
21:40 Mokurai bertf: This is what I call Click By Click documentation, where I push every button and click every menu selection in a full tree traversal.
21:43 bertf it's just you waltzing in and telling everyone they're doing it wrong does not make people agreeable
21:44 what I hear is that people like your contributions in general, but they think you don't have an overview yet of where to best put stuff
21:44 Mokurai bertf: I did not tell anybody they were doing anything wrong. I started on what I saw was missing, and asked what else needed doing. At first I got no reply, so I continued as seemed good to me. Then I got complaints, which we settled.
21:45 bertf if it's settled now then fine. i'm not really involved in the doc stuff anyways
21:45 Mokurai bertf: I put stuff where I could, and asked. We have come to some agreement. I asked again about whether to split the tiles chapter.
21:46 bertf: It is true that I do not have an overview. I don't see one written up, and I was not given one when I asked.
21:48 bertf Our tradion is unfortunately largely oral. You don't get a complete overview from one mailing list post. The information is out there but very scattered
21:49 Mokurai bertf: _I_ think we should pull it together. But _I_ can't do it, not knowing where anything is, or even what to look for.
21:49 bertf: I think that there is a reason why Lore is the evil android in Star Trek. :)

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