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#etoys, 2010-09-08

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
09:58 sugaroid has joined #etoys
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10:23 bertf alsroot: thanks for donation the log bot :)
10:24 is there a help page somewhere? e.g. to learn the meeting commands?
10:24 alsroot bertf: np, since it is not my personal donation but SL's hosting :)
10:24 bertf: http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html
10:25 bertf ah, it's just Meetbot, great
10:25 alsroot bertf: yup, the commands the same, it is just reimplementation for supybot
10:25 bertf alsroot:  how often is the log updated?
10:26 I don;t see it reas-tiem at http://jita.sugarlabs.org/free[…]s/latest.log.html
10:26 real-time
10:26 alsroot bertf: every 30min
10:27 bertf: in fact, there is raw text file w/ real-time current log, every just 30min html page is updated
10:27 bertf ok. would be cool if it was smaller, but I'm happy we're logging at all again :)
10:27 oh, that would be useful - where?
10:28 alsroot bertf: will mention it on Index page, /me needs to tweak scripts
10:28 bertf awesome. thanks!
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13:27 ChanServ changes topic to "Channel logged at http://j.mp/9Vyv8I -- Type "@HELP your message" to get our attention -- http://squeakland.org/ -- Developer chat every Monday at 12:00 noon Los Angeles time"
13:28 ChanServ changes topic to "Channel logged at http://j.mp/9Vyv8I -- Type "@HELP your message" to get our attention -- Developer chat every Monday at 12:00 noon Los Angeles time -- http://squeakland.org/"
13:31 ChanServ changes topic to "Etoys: Authoring is Always On -- Channel logged at http://j.mp/9Vyv8I -- Type "@HELP your message" to get our attention -- Developer chat every Monday at 12:00 noon Los Angeles time -- http://squeakland.org/"
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14:35 sm hi bertf, speaking of bots.. do you know if etoystrackerbot and etoysupdatesbot are still working/useful/required ?
14:37 bertf sm: I find the trackerbot useful
14:38 haven't seen updates working in a while
14:39 sm ok, I'll check it and keep them running unless I hear otherwise
14:39 bertf what feed is the update bot tracking?
14:39 sm http://etoys.laptop.org/updates/feed.rss which seems old
14:40 bertf doesn't even exist anymore I think
14:40 sm right
14:40 bertf this would be better http://source.squeak.org/etoys/feed.rss
14:41 and maybe this too? http://source.squeak.org/etoysinbox/feed.rss
14:42 sm would you want another bot for that ? I'd have to add one
14:42 or you'd have to aggregate them somehow
14:43 lately trackerbot seems to be watching this url, hope it's right: http://tracker.squeakland.org/[…]ue&decorator=none
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14:51 etoysupdatesbot System-bf.36.mcz - Fix SQ-779: all shared flaps destroyed when switching projects. (Bert Freudenberg)
14:51 etoystrackerbot has joined #etoys
14:51 etoystrackerbot [SQ-788] Fix SQ-650 to display when space character is "last keystroke" breaks previous projects  http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-788
14:52 sm looks alright
14:53 bertf no, two bots is enough I guess
14:53 yes looks good
14:53 sm and they both wait for 5 minutes silence, I guess that's still good
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15:00 ChanServ sets mode: +v bertf_
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16:17 etoystrackerbot [SQ-789] kedama-tiles 'turtle of', 'uphill in', 'angle to', 'distance to', 'bounce on'  http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-789
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19:00 ChanServ sets mode: +v ritaf
19:03 ritaf hi
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19:09 maraschino hi
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19:13 maraschino @HELP We are currently doing our booksprint and hoping for some help with a few questions.
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19:13 kencausey Ask them
19:15 maraschino thanks ken, a lot of little things like: What does Joystick button1 and button2 do?
19:15 ritaf :)
19:16 bertf maraschino: refers to the buttons on a joystick you plugged in
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19:16 ('*** saijanai__ is now known as saijanai_', 'saijanai__', 'saijanai_')
19:16 maraschino ah...external joystick not the actual object? great
19:17 sorry for my slowness...I'm looking at the comments that other people made and sometimes it's hard to find
19:19 on playfied: Make detachable: "Allow this area to be separately controlled by its own controls What does that mean?
19:21 scottwal has joined #etoys
19:22 ritaf hi scottwal
19:22 scottwal hi, rita, and y'all
19:22 maraschino Hi Scottwal
19:23 on both Scrolling Text object and Slider: "From the menu you can open and close editing (does anyone know what this means?), set action selector (does anyone know what this means?), change arguments (does anyone know what this means?)"
19:23 kencausey maraschino: Someting about multiple players maybe, with seperate control/interfaces?
19:24 bertf maraschino: repeat your playfield question for scott
19:24 maraschino on playfied: Make detachable: "Allow this area to be separately controlled by its own controls What does that mean?
19:24 kencausey maraschino: It might also help to explain the context of these questions
19:25 maraschino Not sure who wrote that section, but right now we're trying to get rid of these comments, most of them generally "What does that mean?" category
19:25 scottwal heh heh -- detachable playfield.  The idea here is that a playfield that has been designated as detachable can have its own local stop-step-go buttons which govern only the status of players within the playfield.
19:25 kencausey perhaps everyone already knows though ;)
19:25 bertf maraschino: the action selector and arguments refer to smalltalk programming, can be ignored for etoys users
19:26 scottwal re slider:  were these items as part of jerome's "target sighting" work?
19:26 maraschino scottwal: got it.
19:26 bertf scottwal: were there even before
19:26 scottwal hopelessly weird terminology (detachable)
19:27 maraschino :-)
19:27 scottwal anyway -- getting rid o things in the "what does this mean" category sounds like a good approach ;-)
19:28 bertf scottwal: you mean remove from Etoys?
19:28 scottwal but usually at least bert will *know* what some of these obscure items are.
19:28 bertf well I usually read the code
19:28 maraschino There's a bunch on the text object...brace yourself...here they come: " use pango (Can someone describe how using pango affects layout, rendering and internationalization, IE: Why would someone use this?)"
19:29 "add predecessor (does anyone know what this means?), add successor (does anyone know what this means?)" still on Text object
19:29 scottwal in the initial instance, remove from the documentation effort, and perhaps hide from the ui when/if eToyFriendly is set.  Perhaps?
19:29 bertf maraschino: how about you leave that undocumented?
19:29 saijanai_ has quit IRC
19:29 maraschino bertf: what they don't know won't hurt them. :-)
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19:30 scottwal predecessor/successor in text objects...  heh heh again. There's a feature, which may well be broken (bert?) by which text objects could be linked together, and text would hence flow between/among them.
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19:30 bertf maraschino: we could say that stuff that is not documented is not supported either and subject to change
19:31 ritaf scottwal: that sounds interesting! I'll try that
19:31 bertf yes, multi-column text layout should work
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19:32 bertf text in arbitrary shapes and on curves is broken at the moment
19:32 ritaf hm, this looks interesting
19:33 the lenght of the text is fixed, and if I write more, it goes to the successor
19:33 maraschino still in Text Object: "text's numeric value returns a number representing the current position of the knob. (can someone explain what the knob is?) "
19:33 ritaf hi TedK
19:33 kencausey bertf: url of new logs?  might be a good time to distribute that
19:33 maraschino hi TedK
19:34 bertf kencausey: see channel topic
19:34 kencausey oops, duh ;)
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19:34 TedK hi, all.
19:34 bertf kencausey: but it's only updated every 30 minutes. alsroot is working on that.
19:35 kencausey ah not much help in this case then
19:35 bertf hi TedK :)
19:36 TedK Where do you see "text's numeric value returns a number representing the current position of the knob. (can someone explain what the knob is?) "?
19:36 bertf TedK: the balloon help
19:36 scottwal knob would suggest that you're looking at a slider
19:37 bertf scottwal: numericvalue is common to both slider and text
19:37 scottwal: seems it's using one ballon help text for both
19:37 which is a bug of course, but not an easy one I fear
19:37 scottwal bertf:  seems it's not the right thing
19:37 bertf not at all
19:37 alsroot kencausey: until I implement realtime logging you can ping and will refresh logs :)
19:38 kencausey alsroot: OK
19:38 ritaf oh, the "fill owner shape" option of text is crashing my etoys
19:38 kencausey alsroot: ping you?
19:38 bertf alsroot: can I set up a cron job with the ping? ;)
19:38 maraschino bertf and scottwaL: it's the balloon help explanation
19:39 alsroot kencausey: just ask me to refresf it, but I hope to implement realtime feature soon :)
19:39 bertf ritaf: don't do that. known bug http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-236
19:39 kencausey alsroot: k
19:39 ritaf now even I know it :)
19:39 kencausey alsroot: now is a good time assuming you have not already ;)
19:39 kencausey actually looks at it for the first time
19:40 kencausey http://jita.sugarlabs.org/free[…]s/latest.log.html
19:40 for anyone wishing to review parts of current conversation they missed
19:40 scottwal cool, thanks
19:41 alsroot setup cron for 1m
19:41 bertf alsroot: orly? cool :)
19:41 kencausey alsroot: thanks
19:43 maraschino I gotta go folks...thank you for all of your help. There are more of these questions that haven't been answered. What is the best way to get the answers so we can finish this document?
19:43 TedK Squeakland email list.
19:44 maraschino Tedk: developers@squeakland.org? or etoys-dev?
19:45 TedK probably etoys-dev@squeakland.org
19:45 maraschino TedK: thank you!
19:45 bertf maraschino: no, squeakland list, not etoys-dev
19:46 maraschino bertf: ok. thanks everyone!
19:46 TedK squeakland@squeakland.org?
19:46 bertf maraschino: this is a user question, non-developers would be interested
19:46 TedK: yes
19:46 TedK Now you know!
19:46 ritaf so bert suggested to leave some things undocumented
19:47 but only the things which will not be supported anymore?
19:47 scottwal "support" is a bit of a slippery word here...
19:48 ritaf I don't want to tell the developers what to do, but support could mean this will also work in the next etoys version
19:49 and we should make a note for everything which doesn't work.
19:49 scottwal I think most of the things in question are things we've never specifically "supported" in our etoys community -- such as successors and predecessors in text.  A number of things have been subject to bit-rot over the years.
19:49 TedK (It is important that you and other teachers DO tell the developers what to do!)
19:51 ritaf we could ask on the squeakland list who would miss this, but when we start talking about it, there might be someone who wants to have it.
19:51 or we could remove these rather unused things, especially, if they are broken already.
19:52 scottwal I think a number of things are already "hidden" when eToyFriendly or noviceMode is set, but then again lots of users always have eToyFriendly *off*...
19:53 bertf scottwal: most etoys user will have it on
19:53 ritaf we will focus an having it on in the manual
19:54 there will be an appendix for what you get when you switch it off
19:54 bertf ritaf: toggling it off will void the non-existing warranty
19:54 scottwal hee hee
19:55 ritaf we could add a warning.
19:55 I'm always fascinated by the warnings in books (about programming)
19:56 bertf I'd rather encourage people to experiment, they just must not whine when stuff breaks
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19:57 scottwal Perhaps people need to tick a "no whine pledge" checkbox at startup.
19:58 bertf good idea - have the preference panel be locked until the user enters "I promise"
19:59 alternatively, "let me in dammit"
19:59 ritaf in the menu of the slider, there is an option "open editing"
19:59 what can I edit?
20:00 scottwal I think that's probably the part of the help message that applies to text.
20:00 remember that the same help message seems to have gotten associated with a slider and a text object
20:00 bertf ritaf: "Enable this morph's ability to add and remove morphs via drag-n-drop."
20:00 ritaf hm, it's an menu entry, not the balloon help
20:00 bertf: ok, I read this, but cannot imagine what to do with it
20:01 scottwal that's pretty weird terminology for opening an object to d & d...
20:01 bertf ritaf: I know, that's a comment in the code for MorphicModel
20:01 which this menu entry toggles
20:02 in other words: ignore
20:02 scottwal bertf:  so... should stuff like this get removed from the UI, even this late in the release process... or do we leave the ui intact and document the artifact.
20:03 or, in this case, ignore features in the artifact?
20:03 or, in the documentation, point out features to ignore?
20:03 bertf scottwal: do not document, make a note in tracker to hide it. if possible with attached fix ;)
20:04 ritaf so while writing the manual, we started flagging things for removal
20:04 so we put all these in the tracker?
20:05 bertf ritaf: yes, otherwise it will be forgotten. you could have a single ticket for all removals I guess
20:05 ritaf ok
20:09 can I assume that open and close editing always refers to that morphic comment?
20:09 I just saw it in scrolling text
20:11 bertf ritaf: yes - basically to all subclasses of MorphicModel which includes all widgets, e.g. Text, Sliders, Lists etc
20:11 ritaf so we ignore all these
20:11 bertf yes
20:13 rita: it also duplicates the "accept drops" menu entry above it
20:15 which are two separate mechanisms for the same thing. I guess one or the other is obsolete :/
20:15 ritaf what is supposed to happen when I drop an object on e.g. a slider?
20:15 bertf nothing
20:16 ritaf it gets embedded
20:16 scottwal The MorphicModel legacy goes back to earliest morphic times, and people tend not to remove things from the UI that they're not familiar with.
20:16 ritaf when the accept drops is checked
20:16 bertf when you open it
20:16 yes, that's what that checkbox is for
20:17 scottwal: agreed. it looks safe to remove the menu entry at least
20:17 ritaf and what you meant above is, that the accept drops is another mechanism for the same things as open editing?
20:18 bertf yes, the "open for editing" is an older version of the same idea, as Scott jsut said
20:19 doesn;t work anymore afaict
20:19 but even if we removed it for 4.1 it still is in 4.0 which you are documenting right?
20:19 scottwal the morphicModel version, iirc, actually used to create a *slot* in a subclass of MorphicModel for things dropped into it with that old flag set.
20:20 but that was a direction we never went...
20:20 just left the detritus there for future code archaeologists
20:20 bertf now that's an idea
20:20 scottwal a future university speciality
20:21 bertf flag it in the documentation with an "excavation site, don't disturb" sign
20:22 you should write a book about all the experiments ...
20:22 kencausey I'd read it
20:25 bertf ritaf: in other documentation, things that are still there but will be removed soon are flagged as "deprecated" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation )
20:26 ritaf ah, right.
20:27 so we call it "deprecated".
20:28 bertf well, things that really are obsolete, yes
20:29 not sure if it's the right term for things that should just be hidden from Etoys users
20:29 but maybe from an Etoys POV, it is
20:30 ritaf I would mark things that are "flagged for removal", and of course, the developers can review the manual before we finally publish it.
20:31 bertf works for me
20:33 scottwal bertf:  i agree.  And in regular english (as opposed to software-ese) "deprecated" has a specifically derogatory connotation.
20:34 bertf scottwal: interesting. never heard it mentioned except referrign to software
20:34 scottwal bertf:  heh heh, well the breadth of the national vocabulary in the US is steadily narrowing.
20:35 bertf scottwal: I appreciate your doing your best to not let certain seldomly used words die :)
20:39 ritaf here is the link to the manual, it's still work in progress: http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/Etoys/WebHome
20:40 I'll leave now for today, get some sleep and start writing again tomorrow. Thanks for your help! Fortunately, everything is logged :)
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20:42 ritaf bye
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